H&R Pardner Pump is made off old Remington 870 tooling. They're actually fantastic firearms... dare I say better than 870s MFG'd in the past 15 years. Made in China, I love mine. It was cheap and has never given me any issues.
@@fifthbusiness2591 And that's kinda the rub. China has become very good in manufacturing a 'decent' quality copy of something for a bargain price, but they also still put out utterly horrible under-engineered ripoffs that might blow up if you so much as look at them. I expect import regulations will mean these guns fall into the former category, but you never really quite know until you give Karl a couple and set him loose in the AZ desert to hammer on them...
@@DiggingForFacts Fair enough. I've heard all kinds of speculation about Norinco using high quality steel, but I'd love to see it tested. Hopefully they'd give it a fair shake...like they consistently do in the mud tests. ;) Could always benefit from more science.
Enjoyed the shout out to his wife for helping him make the transition to the full-time channel that we all love! (A good partner in life is a blessing!)
@@JimoftheSlim I've shot both competitively, and the Mauser's stripper clips and rimless cartridge make it infinitely better as a military rifle. The Krag is still in my top 5 rifles to bring to the range, but it sucks when shooting under stress.
@@Viper2132 I know the military never issued Krag speeloaders, but you might wish to look up some vintage Norwegian speed shooting videoclips on RU-vid. Fast and fancy shooting with Krag target rifles, among others. Nowadays the Krag is a rare sight in those competitions, but there used to be a Krag shooter nicknamed "the human machinegun"...
But what's the use of "getting a lot of videos out of it" if no one watches them. Other than the possibility of watching a train wreck, are bottom of the barrel level quality shotguns much of a general interest
@@steeltalon2356 OH, gun blow up videos are always interesting. Or doing other, weird stuff with the guns you wouldn't do with a "normal" shotgun. Behind Safety Glass of course and with a cord... Like what happens if you use the "wrong ammunition" with a cheap shotgun. Bore Obstruction and other stuff...
I'm legit curious if a $200 semi can make an argument in the face of the reliability $200 pump like a M500, I37, NEF, ect. When I switched my duck gun to a semi, I went from a $175 M500 to a $400 SPR453, and had a fair number of hiccups before finding what that Baikal liked...I bet the chinesium would be the same story, for less money.
"The Japanese army and navy had more of a rivalry than in other nations." Well, that's an understatement if I've ever heard one. IJA even built their own aircraft carrier because they did't want to talk to the navy xD
The IJA made their own (cargo-carrying) submarines as well. Meanwhile, the IJN had its own explicitly-land-based aircraft, in parallel with its carrier-based aviation.
Not quite. There was an aircraft carrier built by IJA (the Akitsu Maru), but it barely qualifies as such because it was a converted passenger liner with a flat top and no hanger decks. It was so short that aircrafts could take off the deck, but not land. In reality, it was limited to ferrying aircrafts and by modern standards would be classified as an amphibious assault ship. As for the rivalry, that truly was an understatement: the IJA before the war attempted to assassinate IJN Admiral Isoruku Yamamoto who opposed the 1937 invasion of China (2nd Sino-Japanese War) which led to the US embargo of oil and metal to Japan which in turn led to the attack on Pearl Harbor. The IJA was a key supporter within Japan pushing for an empire (The Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere) and through assassination and intimidation was able to gain control of the government which was how the General of IJA, Tojo Hideki, became Prime Minister. But the IJA had to share power with the IJN because being an island nation they needed the cooperation of the navy in order to transport and supply their armies.
In Germany there was a big struggle between the Luftwaffe and the Kriegsmarine on who's to operate an aircraft carrier, which is why the start of production was delayed for years, until the German Navy realised, that they won't be able to build one for WW2.
Luftwaffe might have accidentally sank two KSM destroyers, but at least they didn't toss two divisions they were transporting into brigs while they figure out how to cover up a massive failure that was Midway.
The shotgun idea sounds a little more InRangeTV than Forgotten Weapons. I'm more interested in seeing a comparison between the AWS Spets 12 and the K-USA Komrade-12.
Regarding "Are people biased in favor of their own nation's service rifle" : I'm Swiss and I HATE the SIG-550 (aka Stgw 90) - It's long and heavy (4.5 Kg with a 20round mag) - Get's issued with the small and flimsy 20round mag (they will fall appart when accidently dropped) - Does not like ingress of dirt or muck (very sensitive to these, jamms easely as the tolerances are perhaps too tight) - But most of all: Was designed for a shooting club instead for war. Way too overengineered, heavy and expensive, tiny mags because of the shooting community (true story!). I have fired AR-15s and AKs as well and I rather have those (especially AR-15)
Yea but neither you or your country ever does anything except protect some scrawny old dude in white robe in rome so your opinion is invalid until you and your rifle goto war.
Actually, the Luxembourg troops were the first platoon, co. A, Belgian bn. In Korea. They have the same equipments, uniforms, weapons and training. The only small detail is they have Granduchy badges and not the Royal Belgium ones on berets and the A "dress" uniform.
2:53 Yay, my country gets mentioned^^ The contingent was 42 members big and a total of 85 were send. 2 died 17 were wounded Of the western nations, Luxembourg actually send the largest contingent in % (meaning they send like 10% of all their troops) and had also suffered the worst casualties overall, but also apparently fought like crazy having (among other things) withstood a wave attack that outnumber them like 30 to 1 (No, I did not mistype, it was 30 to 1) Fun Fact: Luxembourg (and a luxembourgish officer) featured in an episode of M*A*S*H in the episode "A Full Rich Day" (Season 3 episode 12)
Wasn't that the episode where M.A.S.H. misplaced one of the Luxembourg soldiers, thought he died and when they had the memorial service he came out if a tent bandaged up but still alive? I haven't seen the episode in about 20 years but like Monty Python I can quote and describe most episodes from memory. Truely one if the greatest series of all time.
@@paulshayter1113 Yep, that's the one. The 2 Luxembourgers (yes, that is correct^^), the colonel and the lieutenant, spoke with a french accent, which is a forgivable offense (Luxembourgish is a language in its own right^^) since the language of office at the time was French (meaning the laws and stuff were written in French) and they had no way of actually replicating the Luxemburgish speech^^
The Belgian/Luxembourg contingent didn't arrive in Korea till the end of January 1951, so their rifles couldn't have made their way to the Chosin reservoir fighting, which took place in late November and early December 1950.
Nobody drinks vodka for the flavour. So if you are drinking for flavour, vodka is indeed pointless. If you drinking to get drunk, vodka is a good way to do so.
@@beavisbutt-headson3223 I'm going with godless commie. :-P Just kidding. You're definitely in the very small minority. Almost everyone I have met who drinks vodka doesn't like the taste of liquor. Except for you apparently, everyone who drinks vodka wants to get hammered on fruit juice.
@ thanks, pop of Luxembourg a bit higher than I guessed looking at a graph,I think they were attached to the Belgians; I doubt Luxembourg ever planned to have a significant international military presence :-)
On full auto battle rifles: Maybe other countries had other doctrines, but I know from vintage Norwegian training manuals and slightly less vintage training on the AG3 that full auto rifle fire was not at all used from prone. The fun switch was mainly for very short range work, as in barely beyond bayonet range when you may only have seconds to live anyway and needed to hose down your immediate surroundings. Old training manuals say full auto is done from the hip, holding the rifle level and aiming by turning your whole body to face the target. Only to be used at 50 meters or less, and when the mag runs dry you start stabbing with your already-mounted bayonet because no time to reload that close to the enemy. Clipping bursts of about three to five rounds was considered ideal. By my time, late 90's, doctrine had changed to firing from the shoulder but we also went to semi auto double taps rather than full auto as the standard fire mode in CQB. Full auto was for hosing down a trench during the final phase of an assault, and for suppressive fire during disengagement contact drills when superior firepower is more important than accuracy. Prone shooting off whatever rest you could find was strictly aimed single shots, never full auto.
"The Brits are the worst at this" Here comes the three Yorkshireman sketch of Monty Python 😂😂 But yeah. Having worked in engineering and manufacturing in a previous life alongside someone from ROF Enfield Lock and Nottingham, we both had extensive conversations about the god awful, design by committee, unfit for purpose L85 platform. If you want to know how good something is, look at how many people buy it... List of importers of the L85; Jamaica🇯🇲 End of list 😂 "If the SLR/FAL is the right arm of the free world, the L85 is the wrong'n" I agree on the Vodka sentiment as well, although my Polish friends might not be so happy with the assessment. #ILikeScotchScotchyScotchyScotch
WHen I was a Cadet the L85 was being introduced. I was on a summer camp with the Signals , we all had No4's and we were shown the L1A1 and had a trip to the range with them. All went well. The next day we were shown the L85 Cadet. We were told that you had to take grear care in loading the magazien. Enevatablty when we went to the range we had lots of miss feeds, and the version is single shoot and you nead to work the bolt to feed the next round. I was told by a couple of the Signalers that if that had to pick a L85 or a No4 they will go for the No4. None of them belived it was any good.
As a Buckshee in one of the first units to get the SA80 in 1987 (pre mag release mod). Honestly, we where astounded at how it had a pretty much instant and huge improvement on marksmanship, loved the idea of full auto........................we also joked in that macabre Squaddie way that if you said so much as a rude word to it you would get a stoppage, it was fucking frightening how bad it really was.
re: SKS side-by-side with AK. The Chinese kept the rifle/sub-gun combination of these two in their infantry until the 80's when their experience fighting Vietnam in their little border war disabused them of the SKS.
Also about the pom-pom, the boers used them as light artillery against the British, but once captured or surrendered the British concluded they weren't all that effective after all. And this was on the velte not Flanders mud.
12;00 about the suomi the danish resistance bought 3000 swedish Husquana sub mashinguns during the war from sweden. they where smugled in to Copenhagen by boats. ( the Husquana was a swedish produced suomi
There really is no telling where it came from without further information. Many of the Finish and Danish built ones were issued to the Police, and Danish Police was very much involved in arming the resistance movement, and then you have that Swedish order of Husqvarna's. So it could easilly have been any one of the 3.
In addition, both the Danes and Norwegians had several thousand troops educated and equipped in Sweden during the later years of the war, popularly called "Polititroppene" / police units. They were to a large part equipped with m37/39, and were returned to Denmark and Norway at war's end to help keep order. These guns were kept in service until the '70s/80's, at least in the Norwegian Home Guard. Nice shooting they were. The 50 round coffin mags actually were very reliable...
No ice, cold water to taste, you can use ice to swirl the bitters round the glass if you prefer the bitters”out”, Bombay Sapphire ? no good ! I don’t think much of a gin that you can drink neat and hardly notice it in your mouth.
Couple of suggestions if you like gin. William Chase, the base spirit is actually made with cider apples. Secondly London No 1. Seriously, if you like gin try these, they're expensive but bloody gorgeous.
This was a very interresting video! Usually, i find youtuber's Q&A either a bit cliché or a bit boring, but this one is full of nice crispy details and informations! Kudos to FW fans that came with a load of relevants questions, and kudos to you, Ian, for developping the answers properly. Love from Europe to all of you PS: I LOVE your globe-minibar !
Actually, the SKS stayed in front line Soviet service into the early 70s and well beyond in secondary service. You have to remember that the early AKs did start production in 1949, but it took years for the kinks to get worked out. When that happened is about the time they stopped making the SKS.
AK wasn't really the standard Soviet rifle till about 1956. The Chinese and Norks had none in Korea. I traveled across Cuba in early 1961 when the Cubans were getting ready for US invasion; they were making a big show of their Soviet-bloc weaponry, but AKs were conspicuous by their absence.
Ian, have you ever been to Fort Sill, OK.? It might make for a nice road trip for you and Karl. Some nice, historic field artillery for you (including the Atomic Annie that was actually fired) well as an opportunity for Karl to film some old west vignettes with the history of the fort and connection to Geronimo.
Thanks for posting a timeline of the questions and answers. I'm not equally interested in all the topics, so the timeline helps me jump ahead to the questions I'm most interested in.
Not liking absinthe is a good choice. A friend of mine was really into it and we would have had some good memories about those nights had I remembered any of them.
@DR Dan Shots are kinda my thing, and so I got dared to do a few shots of everclear. I made it to 3 in a row and my throat has never hurt that much in my life. I almost threw up just from the coughing.
@@DwarvenSupremecy At deer camp a few years back the guys bet me I couldn't hold straight everclear in my mouth for a full minuet. They lost that bet. I even sloshed it around like mouthwash the entire time.
Good Q&A, enjoyed it very much! Ian on some of the Skandy guns with the funny-angled front sight dovetail, I think you've said it was for getting finer adjustments which, sure enough, it would do that. I believe though that it is probably also to make it easier to tap the sight into adjustment. Trying to bonk a sight in a transverse dovetail is more technique-intensive and just plain harder because the gun wants to rotate. When the dovetail is only, what, 15° - 20° from the barrel axis, you have the whole mass of the rifle working in your favor, so when you strike the sight, the sight moves and not the rifle. That's always been belief and experience anyway. Keep up the good work.
Thank you Mrs Forgotten Weapons for bringing us our daily dose of awesome. Without you we would have weekly posts at best and Ian would be mostly trapped in a tri-state area with 90% of our content being auction houses. (Still great but this is definitely waaaaay better). Tell Ian to take you to Hawaii and bring a girlfriend to hang on the beach while he films sunken battleships. 🤪
I can confirm that Suomis were used by the Danish resistance. A businessman, the founder of the present Maersk Line, paid for a number (1500 IIRC) bought in Sweden and smugled into Denmark, but only issued to the non-communist part of the resistance.
Am I the only one who can't stop starring at the patch on his head??? Q) Have you been painting your house/ did a pigeon get you good or has work been /very/ stressful lately?
On the semi-automatic Chinese shotguns I ended up buying a lynx lh-12 and I was actually been very pleased with how it's built and how well it's performed. It does have problems cycling some of the real low velocity birdshot but those are cartridges that guns like the vepr 12 have problems cycling. I will say this though the furniture on my lh-12 needed to be upgraded and I went with Magpul stuff and did make the rifle handle a lot better.
As a French, I'm completely biased towards French firearms. Somehow I'm confident Ian won't blame me for that. ;) Not to the point where I'll defend them as the best in existence, but yeah, I'd love to own pieces of my country's history.
I like buying your country's firearms too, mainly because they are relatively affordable for me. For some reason the second hand market here in the US has decided that anything from US military history needs to cost a small fortune when it's actually worth about an 1/8th of what they ask lol.
@@jontee3437 Well it's about the same here honestly. Not withstanding local gun laws, some French rifles tend to become absurdly rare or expensive here, because when out of service they were exported or destroyed but not put on the domestic market. Mind you, some famous American rifles or handguns got absurdly expensive here as well, because they are highly sought after, for some category of target shooting.
That's my own favourite way to look at it. As a Russian living in the 20th and the 21st century, my upbringing was dominated by the Great Patriotic War heroism and valour, so now when I think of our own firearms, I cannot really separate the things themselves from their history (as I tend to do with all of the things I'm passionate about) and sharing this history through my relatives and ancestors is something special for me. I try to be respectful though - I don't really have the ignorance to call Russian guns the best in the world though - as an engineer and a man of science I cannot help but give much respect for any feat that deserves it. Cheers, mate, thanks for your comment.
Bonjour mon ami. Someday I hope to tour your country. May you someday be able to acquire a piece of your contries military history. Best wishes from across the pond :)
The burton and the ribeyrolles are two of my favorite guns I'm so glad they got a mention for a random question and it's cool to know that they were developed for a different cartridge.
It certainly isn't completely pointless in cocktails, I'd disagree with Ian (though I see where he's coming from) - for one, you do sometimes want to make a cocktail alcoholic without compromising the flavours of the original. Two, in my experience, alcohol on its own tends to highlight the flavours of the other ingredients, so vodka can actually make an effect. Also, vodka with sharper-tasting gins in Vesper, for that 007 mood.
There's a French vodka called Cîroc that's made from grapes, and you can still taste them. Also if it weren't for vodka I'd just be drinking coffee liqueur by itself, and that's a bit much.
I suspect that the 'Belgian semiautomatic rifle' seen at The Chosin was actually a misnomer for an FN BAR Model 30. About 29000+ were sold to China between 1933-39(until Belgium realized it needed all its BARs at home). In the book The Last Stand Of Fox Company, veterans recall the vast variety of weapons recovered from the dead Chinese. Included were both American and Belgian BARs.
"the l85 is more reliable than the AK" I think what you have found here has nothing to do with delusions about the gun, and is more to do with the British sense of humour....
I think the stat does actually come from a real test, where they tested the L85A2 against a number of other rifles including the AK and M4 and there were more rounds between stoppages with the L85 than any other gun (real stoppages, not the definition used in the original A1 testing). The thing is that it was just one specific reliability test under one set of conditions (I think cold wet mud but might be wrong) and was probably worse in every other test, but because this was the test it won this is the only one that people talk about. People up top were saying this all the time after the A2 upgrade when the army was trying to rebuild confidence in the gun so I imagine that a lot of people genuinely believe it.
@Feisty Midget Nah, ex and current British service personnel will defend the SA80 all the time, the issue is that their opinion changes depending on the situation. If somebody asks them about the SA80 without agenda they will have no issue describing it as an absolute piece of crap that will get you killed in the field. However, if somebody starts ragging about it than the same guy will leap to its defence as the most accurate infantry rifle issued today with reliability that is on par with an AK and anybody moaning about the ergonomics is a whus and needs to toughen up and get used to it. As with most things, the reality is somewhere in the middle. The British will complain about anything, up to when a foreigner has the some opinion at which point it has to be thoroughly quashed immediately. I've been guilty of defended the L85A2/A3, but only really because some people just lump everything together and assume that they are all garbage like the A1 which isn't the case. I'm also more broadly a bullpup defender, but only in a military context, and personally feel that the switching shoulders is less of an issue than a lot of people make it out to be (I would probably feel differently if I was wrong-handed like Ian though). Lastly, I have money on the SA80 not being replaced with a 5.56 AR for general issue, with the A3 that thing is hanging around until America picks something new that we will piggy back on.
An instructor presented the L85 to us - a group of regular reservists, as the weapon that we would have to learn to love. We were all extremely familiar and comfortable with the L1A1, most of us had used it on active service and loved it. The instructor had a roll of black gaffer tape on the desk and during his intro, made furtive glances at the gaffer tape, we understood why when fore grip sort of disintegrated as he was about to pass it around...after taping it together we noticed the butt plate was taped on....to a man we said he might as well stop there and then and return the " weapon" to the dustbin he got it from.... From then on we carried on with the SLR and wiped the floor with regular "enemy" units on the subsequent exercise.... stoppages, broken parts and missing plastic bits etc.... The only weapons they had that actually worked as intended was their GPMG's, thunder flashes and fists. They all seemed to carry rolls of gaffertape - which was very useful when it came to tying them up. 7.62 has range, penetration and far more lethal effect well past 300 M - I can't comment on the M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round because I have never used one or seen it in action. Great videos as always.
Questions I wish someone on Patreon asks. 1) From your shooting experience with the FG42, do you think the concept of open/closed bolt works? I heard that the striker system causes inaccuracy because of the huge weight of the bolt even on semi auto short travel. 2) Similarly, are striker fired rifles like the Vz58 and the QBZ95 have accuracy issues caused mainly by the use of a striker instead of a hammer? And why make a striker system to begin with? 3) Why do Bullpups have such a terrible trigger pull and how can it be remedied?
The time that I spent in Iraq I had the opportunity to train with Australians and have extended conversations with the British. The Aussies had the F90 with a specter elcon 1-4 and a PEC 15, the Brits had the L85A3 with an ACOG on it. Both of the them said they would rather have an M4 over what they where issued with. For one main reason you can shoot it from either shoulder without eating brass.
Don't think the L85A3 was ever used with an ACOG (outside of prototypes and testing), either it would have been an A2 or the scope was actually an ELCAN with a piggy back red dot. The A3 was only issued from March 2018 so if this was before that time it would have been an A2 by default. As for the shoulder thing you are broadly correct, although these days the army has started training people how to do it. This is one of the reasons they kept the separate red dot on the ELCAN rather than using a 1/4x as it lets you get a high far back chin weld to clear your face from the charging handle to use it from the left shoulder. It is pretty awkward but is better than nothing. I think these days most soldiers are more realistic about the L85 compared to other rifles like ARs, probably because there are a lot more AR rifles that are used or seen be normal soldiers these days. Royal Marines are an outlier as they have always though the L85 was crap, and even when it is upgraded they still make up new problems with it as they think they are special forces so are trying to come up with any excuse to be issued L119s.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Ian made a minor error concerning the C&R license. Specifically, turning in the log books to the BATFE when the license expires. IIRC, you do not have do that for a Type 03 (C&R) though you do for the other types. He also neglected to point out the other big benefit of having a C&R is that if you transfer through a deal (i.e. w/o a license), the dealer will charge you a fee for the transfer; fees vary but most I've seen cost as much for a single transfer as the C&R FFL costs for a 3 year period.
No one has ever done more to redeem the reputation of a firearm than Ian has done for the Chauchat. I’ve also learned more about the Chauchat from Ian than all of the WW1 weapons books I’ve read combined
The cheap Chinese semi-auto shotgun test is best suited for InRangeTV, but with multiple models so it should be with Ian and Karl to have more points of data and of course the obligatory dust-test and mud-test at the end.
I think the Chinesium shotguns are definitely a more InRange thing. I kinda think the role you discuss for the national arsenal is already played by a few government installations, at least in terms of iterating design (NSWC Crane comes to mind) but the manufacturing standardization point is very, very valid
Curio and Relic license sounds like a Canadian Possession and Acquisition License (minus the "let your license expire and still keep the guns"). Here, when ordering online you enter your license number and a few other details and the gun is shipped to you (in person you just show your license to the store/seller).
*taking notes* Gin, Tequila, Mescal ... also, I would say that I'm ok with the dog showing up in the video (I felt a little sad when you told him to go lie down)
On the subject of vodka... If you're into cocktail-making, you should keep a cheap vodka around for making your own infusions. There are all sorts of herb and spice combinations you can mess around with.
@@DwarvenSupremecy its not really forgotten,honestly What i really mean is just reminder ,why such anzio rifle was not include or seen on forgotten weapons youtube tv programme, so ...that it's..cheers
32:35 Sounds like a job for InRange. Maybe a technical slant to the question? Maybe accompanying pictures and system explanations, this one is using this gas or recoil system from this out of patent gun, etc. I don't think it's super-interesting, do this tomorrow, but if nobody else is doing something like that and you're actually really curious...do it?
Lots of ad’s on this video and I couldn’t be happier. Good to see your videos being monetised. More money to produce your excellent content. Keep it up 👍
Yeah it's definitely husqvarna m37/39 but the design is finnish. Carl Gustav Gevärsfaktori and Husqvarna Vapenfabriks bought licenses to produce the suomi smg from Aimo Lahti so it's swedish build finnish gun
Ian's wife confirmed as best girl. Not a fake "cool girl" who pretends to be all into the same stuff as you, but as one who respects and supports her man's calling in life. We are all indebted to her commitment. God bless you both.
Yet another fantastic video from the world of Ian. Man I love your channel so much. Just one tip, though; an interruption from a dog is never an actual interruption, it is merely the Universe letting you know that you are loved... via dog. 😏
A suomi was actually used in a robbery/shooting in Norway in early 2019. The gun was left at the scene, so you could see it in pictures in the paper. I find it interesting that since automatic weapons are extremely hard to come by the Nordic countries, criminals still use old war relics like that for their business. Not that there tends to be a lot of incidents involving automatic weapons here, though I can't speak for our neighboring countries.
Huh, my pick for "Greatest American Small Arms Superiority" would've been the late 90s / early 2000s. Back then, yes everybody has an assault rifle, relatively few have a carbine as light and handy as an M4, they will have profound difficulty mounting force multipliers like lights and lasers to them, and the big kicker is that the US is generally issuing M68s and ACOGs on these rifles. The same holds true for Machine Guns (and by this point the SMG is irrelevent). Compare that to the iron sighted AK's and PKMs being used by insurgents at this time, or even the "state of the art" like the G36 and AUG and the M4 beats them hands down. Not as badly as an M1 beats a Kar98, but there isn't an MG34 / MG42 sized caveat, or an STG-44 sized caveat to that award. The Iraq War advertised to the whole world the decisive advantage that modern optics, pic rails, and maneuverable carbines conferred, and you see a sharp change in firearms design immediately afterwards with guns getting shorter, growing rails, and optics mounted on rails becoming the expectation.
On the SKS and the larger 54r cartridge: the three prototype SKS rifles (SVS-53, SKS-30, SKS-31) were all in the larger 7,62x54r, as that is, of course, what existed and what Simonov had to play with. Interestingly, all three used the three main types of feed system for semi-automatic rifles (respectively: detachable box magazine, en bloc clip, and good ol' stripper clips), with the Soviet government ultimately preferring the SKS-31 and its use of standard Mosin clips plus a flush 5-round fixed magazine. It's hard to speculate on how effective the first two were, as those were stepping stones between the AVS and the final SKS, and never even saw trials; but the SKS-31 did get far enough to actually go into limited troop trials, who reported the following, paraphrased: 1) They liked the size and weight of the rifle, being much smaller and handier than the SVT, which made it easy to lug around and all those things (the SKS-31 was about the size of the SKS-45, so that makes sense). 2) The cartridge handicapped its potential *significantly*. a- Recoil was far too high, with the muzzling flying too high to allow for quick follow-up shots. b- the muzzle flash it made was blinding, obscuring the target far too much. Compounded with the last problem, the rifle was basically unusable as a semi-auto, compared to the heavier SVT. (There was a muzzle device to control the flash, and that is noted in the report, but there was just so much generated by the round that it basically didn't matter.) c- possibly linked to the last problem with the barely-effective flash hider (for no fault of the flash hider itself, it was just asked to do far too much), the rifle was loud. Soldiers testing the rifle had to take regular breaks during shooting, as it generated so much noise that it made it impossible to simply hear otherwise. 3) Five rounds just felt like far too few for a semi-automatic rifle. Ultimately, they conclude that while soldiers like the idea of the rifle, its use of 7,62x54r was simply too much of a detriment to recommend for further testing.
I don't think either of you should bother with those Chinese shotguns. I would rather not have either of you two be injured by a catastrophic failure of Sinotastic cheapness.
Regarding ammunition logistics and having riflemen and machinegunners using different ammunition, this is one big reason why the US didn't adopt the .276 Pedersen in the 1930s. The Army didn't want to supply two different cartridges, and wanted to keep the more powerful cartridge for machineguns. So when John Garand said he could make his rifle in .30-06, that was a big argument in its favor. The Swedes had a certain degree of logistical trouble supplying both 6.5x55mm (rifle and LMG) and 8x63mm (HMG) ammunition. They tried issuing rifles in 8x63mm to the machinegun troops, but the recoil (think .300 win mag and a steel buttplate) was just too much.
