It's true. My father was a merchant seaman and he had a Certificate of Continuous Discharge. You register as an able or ordinary seaman., articles A or articles B. Basically the only difference was if you signed articles A you ate whatever was put in front of you. If you signed articles B you got a choice of what to eat. Articles A got slightly higher wage for a no choice diet. Articles B got a slightly lower wage but the benefit of choosing their diet.
When I was younger (around 1971), I used to go to a folk club (i.e., a pub where they played folk music). One song was about the Titanic. It was a jolly song with a really rousing chorus for everyone to join in: "It was sad (it was sad), it was sad (it was sad), it was sad when that great ship went down (hallelujah). Husbands and wives, little children lost their lives. It was sad when that great ship went down." A truly sad song.
The closest I ever got to the Titanic was a bit like that old song ,`I danced with the man who danced with the girl who danced with the Prince of Wales`. The most senior surviving officer was 2nd lieutenant Charles Lightoller, who was also famous for taking his motor vessel `Sundowner` ,across the English Channel to help with the D-Day evacuation ,in WWll. With him was his son and the son`s friend ,a 17 year old sea cadet called Gerry Ashcroft .( featured in the film Dunkirk). In the 1990s ,I met Mr. Ashcroft briefly ,when his wife was a customer in my secondhand bookshop, in Brightlingsea ,Essex . I did indicate that the connection was a bit remote!
Each lifeboat had one or two sailors to organise the passengers and keep them calm. The highest ranking survivor, 2nd officer Charles Lightoller actually went down with the ship, stuck to a hatchway by suction until a boiler exploded and blew him to the surface. he was the man who drew a pistol to ensure that women and children got priority, incidentally, women and children first has a name, it's called "The Birkenhead Drill", after the troop ship HMS Birkenhead which sank in a storm off South Africa, The soldiers and sailors stood at attention on deck as every woman and child on board was saved while over 700 service men died. Charles Lightoller went on to captain destroyers in WW1, and survived his 3rd shipwreck when one of them was sunk. He's also portrayed in every film about Dunkirk, he and his boat "Sundowner" were part of "The Little Ships" fleet of private boats that helped evacuate the British Expeditionary Force from the beaches of Dunkirk, he managed to cram 87 soldiers on his small boat. When one of the soldiers found out he'd been on the Titanic, he joked "bloody hell, if I'd known that, I'd never have got on here!"
I read that he took the order as women and children ONLY on the side of the ship he evacuated whereas Wilde took it as women and children FIRST on the other side.
@@Roz-y2d He ran away to sea in his early teens and joined the merchant navy, where he survived the first of three ship-wrecks, it would of been four if he hadn't managed to single-handedly tackle a serious fire aboard one ship, he graduated to become a ships officer, then left his ship in the Americas, and tried his hand at gold prospecting in the Yukon, travelled South and spent time as a cowboy (Gaucho) in South America. He then went back to sea and joined the White Star Line, after the Titanic sank he was called before a board of enquiry where he was absolved of any blame. In WW1 he joined the Royal Navy as a destroyer captain and foiled a Zeppelin raid on London, they didn't manage to shoot it down, but it jettisoned it's bombs and headed for home. His first destroyer was sunk by a U-Boat which upset him greatly, U-Boats were a new form of warfare which he considered ungentlemanly and little short of murder, which goes some way to explain the only stain on his charecter. When his second command sank a U-Boat he was ready to machine-gun the survivors in the water, or leave them to drown, until a second destroyer appeared and he began fishing the survivors out..
My great great etc uncle was Mr Hesketh, Junior engineer he would have been in charge of the boiler room on the night. He's mentioned in the old black and white film and there are survivor accounts of him helping others before being trapped behind the doors in boiler room 5 or 6 if memory serves. He was in his 30s crazy!
This is a typical extrapolation of logic. Why do people think anyone can just jump in a boat and survive. How do they think they navigate or set a course, or do they think they just bob about on the sea until someone finds them? They've got to know how to move out of danger, where the danger zone is and how to save or not save anyone else once at sea.
An Able Bodied Seaman (also called an Able Seaman, or just AB for short) works on a ship's deck and is two ranks above the Deckhands, a rank above an Ordinary Seaman (OS), because they have more experience on their seafarer resume and more sea time under their belt
Even worse than having their wages stopped, the grieving father of one of the brave lost band members received a bill from White Star Line for his son’s uniforms silver buttons. Unbelievable in today.
@@tonyburton5706 His name was John Law Hume. His father, Andrew Hume, was sent a bill for 5s. 4d. (5 shillings, 4 pennies) for the uniform as his unpaid wages were stopped at 2.20am(time of sinking) and were inadequate to cover the cost. OP is right except the buttons on his bandsman’s tunic were not silver, they were brass. Edit: forgot to add, the bill was sent by C.W. & F.N. Black which had contracts with liner operators such as British White Star Line to recruit and provide musicians. White Star Line did not send the bill.
Stopping a ship's crew's pay the moment they hit the water after a sinking was the norm in the British Merchant Navy. It was still practiced up to about half way during WW2 - and only stopped because of pressure from the US as they were fed up having to care for penniless, distressed bBitish seamen. All of the Titanic's engineers - every one of them - went down with the ship. All British seamen were issued a Discharge Book, which recorded the ships they had served on and had an assessment from the Captain, which if it did not say 'very good' was deemed to be unacceptable. An Able seaman was a more experienced seaman, more skilled than an ordinary seaman.
Hi N&J, I live in the same town as the as the Chief Wireless Operator on the Titanic Jack Phillips was born (Godalming, Surrey, UK) Even though he gets a lot of the blame for not passing on messages (Busy/Overworked etc) that doesn't bother us! We've got a Wetherspoons pub named after him and a large Memorial Cloister & garden in the town's park and his headstone in the Old Cemetery is in the shape of an iceberg (Probably to remind him what one looks like!!) Cheers Jim, UK🇺🇸♥️🇬🇧✌️👍
The children's TV show Catain Pugwash started in 1957 was notoriously said to include Seaman Staines, Master Bates and Roger the Cabin Boy. Unfortunately the facts disprove this wonderful theory
Pretty much all information given by the hosts, Stephen Fry and Sandi Toksvig are correct at time of broadcast. Thoroughly enjoying your reactions 👍👏👏👏
214 crew members survived out of the 900 on board. The merchant naval terms were mostly universal and would be entirely understood amongst crews from your country
The Sea City Museum in Southampton has a map that shows the homes of all the Titanic crew that lost their lives. It brings home how many families not only lost their loved ones but also lost their only income.
I watched another RU-vid a few weeks (maybe a month) ago about the Titanic's chef who knew that time was up for him, drank heavily after the crash, helped people into liferafts and threw sun decks into the sea in case they were any use, got even more drunk during the sinking and rode the boat down into the sea. He apparently stepped off the sinking ship as it hit the water, and paddled away. There was no room on any boats, but held on for a few hours until rescued. They reckon he'd just drunk enough to cut off the blood from his arms and legs to restrict heat loss, plus he must have been a bloody good swimmer/paddler. Charles Joughin was his name, and he did sail again. I'm sure I'm right in what I seem to remember, but there's always Wikipedia and RU-vid. Aparently, you can also see him (or an actor playing him) during the film (maybe the 1997 film).
I’m from Southampton, where Titanic’s crew were mostly from. The stories of the families of the crew after the disaster is a part we never consider. They say, if you averaged it out, 1 person from every street in Southampton was a crew member
Maybe you are familiar with the Titanic Engineers' Memorial in East (Andrews) Park, Southampton? Most of the Engineers were from the North of England, originally at least.
@@tomarmstrong5244 I know it well❤️. Most of the crew from the Southampton area were low paying, lower decks jobs. A common story was that the members of the crew being the only source of income for the whole, poor family. The families were not really compensated and lost their income source and loved one. I’m sure there are some books regarding the subject
@@tomarmstrong5244 a lot of the engineers and lead crew were White Star company men and were from all over, often relocated to Southampton for convenience. My grandmother is buried a few graves over from the captain of the first ship on scene, saving a lot of survivors. I forget the name of the ship, possibly the SS Carpathia?
Yes, the crew was treated very badly, and the Board of Trade enquiry into the disaster was, predictably, a whitewash. Have you heard the theory, long rumoured among merchant seamen, that it was not in fact the Titanic that sank, but instead her sister ship, the Olympic, exchanged in an insurance fraud?
The capacity issue was Second Officer Lightholler thinking the order was women and children ONLY and the fact passengers were reluctant at first to get in the boats. The Officers took charge of who went in (of the 8 Officers 4 survived, most juniour) and the Able Seamen launched and manned the boats during the sinking but their day job was to operate all of the deck machinery and assist the Officers as ordered. There were only Able Seaman on Titanic, of the 29 men 19 survived as most were assigned to a lifeboat to take charge if there wasn't an Officer or Quartermaster (next rank up from Able Seaman) present. 7 Able Seamen and the Bosun were ordered below deck to try and open a gangway door to load passengers into lifeboats already launched but they all drowned as the ship started sinking more rapidly.
I'm pretty certain that was changed in ww2, if your ship got sunk by a u boat you stopped getting paid at that point until you were re posted to another ship, if you weren't posted you were either dead, wounded or missing at sea.
I accidentally came across a “titanic” museum in Southampton in few years ago , worth going to if you are in the area.. And yes it emphasised that all employees stopped their employment at a designated time when the ship was sinking. Margaret Thatcher would be proud.
Book: And The Band Played On, about the Titanic's heroic musicians. (Title taken by the song made famous by Guy Lombardo & His Royal Canadians, known for Auld Lang Syne).
During the Second World War any merchant crewmen once the ship was abandoned would not receive pay, this could happen multiple times on the convoy routes and did. Horrific way to treat a loyal crew who should have refused to obey orders once not being paid.
In answer to that I'd say go to a clinic. But yes the meaning of wording from 1912 to 2012. Who came up with the thought to use it as innuendo was a funny person
The difference is the top three skills for a Seaman include Safety Equipment, Navigational Aids and Coast Guard. most important skills for an Able Seaman are Cargo Operations, General Maintenance and Emergency Equipment.
Wallace Hartley was the band leader on the titanc he played till death he was from my home town Colne lancs England he has statues and a pub named after him his body was found 2 weeks later he's a legend
My dad was British Merchant Navy WW2, he was on the US to UK convoys and he was sunk once (had many trips) and it was also true then, that once your ship sank your pay stopped, he was in a lifeboat for three days and did not get paid until he joined another ship in his hometown of Liverpool, that's why, once WW2 ended and there was a general election the people voted for a completley new way of life and so the welfare state was born, workers rights NHS and so on.
Masabumi Hosono was publicly shamed all his life in Japan for being a male survivor on the Titanic. His Grandson is Harumo Hosono the remaining member of the popular Japanese Group Yellow Magic Orchestra. They were very popular in Japan in the late 70s and the 80s. I also just read that the families of the band were sent bills for the silver buttons on their jackets.
There would have been seamen needed to steer the lifeboat and cast off the ropes it was lowered on , also to organise rowing to steer away from the sinking ship to avoid being sucked down with it .
I think the seaman/discharge thing was true. People just didn't have their minds in the gutter then. It was just purely unfortunate that those two words had, and still have, alternative definitions.
Them sailors weren't to badly done by... In the potteries they were paid by the piece, but only once it had been been completed & left the factory. If somebody dropped a crate of china wheeling it our the factory door nobody got paid for anything in it. Miners were also paid on what they produced & had a quota for each shift. If you didn't turn up to work you had to pay the pit owner for his share of the quota that you didn't dig.
I doubt anyone would rationalise in a life and death situation. I once took a lightning strike through a fence I was climbing over during a thunderstorm and instantly I found myself racing up a field with my heart racing it just happened it was an instant reaction.
Are there similar rules in place today? I mean, airplane hosts only get paid once a flight has actually taken off, but I imagine there would be similar rules in place in case of an emergency failure...
It depends where you live. In the US the cabin crew only get paid when the doors close but in most places it's duty hours. Their rules on duty time though vary from pilots. It would also vary enormously around the world but anyway yes they'd get paid if there was an extension of duty time due to an emergency or a maintenance issue.
Everyone until tested will believe themselves not only capable but likely to be heroic rather than selfish. Professionals are trained to act according to specific prescribed procedure to enable cooperative positive action. Soldiers, medical staff, rescue teams, fire fighters etc all use repetition and group think to offset personal insecurity and failings. Where group think can be negative in society in general (see what's happening in modern society now), it is positive during a crisis. Save the collective before the individual... Without the crisis abandoning an individual should be unthinkable. In a crisus the majority become more important than the individual.
There is an overlooked film about the titanic called "A Night To Remember" (1958) which is worth checking out. [It was made before anyone had seen the wreck and it was based on the book of the same name].
Apparently what was meant by Women and children first was women and children was to board the boats first and then the men would take up any places that was left .
I actually got one for once! I shouted STIMPY! Grew up on that ('93 kid) that would probably explain why I am the way I am now. Perfectly adjusted and exceptionally stable.
3:23 on survival exercises its very logical and cold. Women can have more children so leave the babies they are a burden to the survival of the group. People with no skills are a drain on resources and thus a burden to the group etc. Note thought this is irrelevant if you've got a container ship of food and fresh water are able to cook it and produce more water.
The difference between an ordinary seaman ,and an able seaman according to Google is an Able Seaman had to be at least 20 years old , with 5 years experience at sea and be capable of taking the helm and steering the ship ❤.
Answer me this... If a similar situation happened today and a boat sank. Which they still do. When they say women and children first, what happens to the pronoun people or the identify people 😂😂 "I identify as a woman," Life has become that easy that people are inventing problems because they are bored If they identify as a woman in 1912 They would be over board See what I did there
It’s terrible how people were treated back then. But Attlee and Bevan changed all that after WW2. The two best politicians we’ve ever had. And yes, even better than Churchill. If Churchill had continued as PM after WW2 we’d never have had the NHS or any of the other reforms. And I’m a Tory!!!
The honourable "women and children first" morals of the past wouldn't cut it these days, women and children would be last, too many impostors muscling their way to the front!
Your videos are way too short and you do far too much talking at the beginning wasting the whole video. Actual reaction is only about 3 minutes which is no good to man nor beast.
This is an interesting take. Appreciate the review/critique. It’s not very constructive though. We have found a good amount of success and longevity doing it this way. If it’s not for you then that’s life.
This woman is in no way qualified to talk about saving people in an emergency, on the Titanic all of the women and children were put into the lifeboats, it was the men who had to stay and die.
Defo RELAX - and you’re so wrong, it hurts. Male passengers did get in lifeboats as well when women refused to get in, not believing the ship would sink, and to provide muscle power to row the lifeboats. Try reading nautical history books instead of watching James Cameron films. 🙄
@@HughShower I’m not wrong at all, you can point to examples where it didn’t happen but that doesn’t change the accepted rule, women and children first. Perhaps you should learn to think logically and not disregard facts based on outlier examples, it betrays your lack of intellect.
