9:47 - for anyone interested in this kind of fantasia-style texture with this harmonic idea, you MUST check out BWV 923. In the second half of this, Bach uses this #5-over-bass suspension over and over again. I loved this video - thanks, as always, Michael! You always find great examples, and the Couperin/Schumann pairing was brilliant 🧑🍳👌
Ah yes, the good old quinta superflua, always brings a tear to my eye :') Georg Muffat also described it in his famous 1699 treatise Regulae Concentuum Partiturae. There he mentions that it is very rarely found and that it should be accompanied by a third and an octave, but that it should never be doubled, due to its repugnance: "Die Quint aber soll niemahls dupliert werden, dann sie ohne dem einfach wiederwärtig genug." :D He gives a bunch of examples how it should be prepared and resolved (and that it can even be unprepared). Adding the seventh and/or the ninth is not mentioned by Muffat. Also, you can understand it being on the third degree in minor or on fourth degree in major if one considers hexachordal solmisation, where the minor scale begins on the second degree of the major scale. In both cases, quinta superflua is on the note fa.
Kresimir :D lol I totally forgot about Muffat although I checked this treatise several times in the past. One of the most fascinating baroque style sources. I remember him showing as well some edgy chords and rich voicings and I‘m gonna take a look again later. „Quint niemals dupliert“ he says… I see. What I found interesting e.g. in the D Minor Prelude by Couperin is that the 5# just pops up out of nowhere. All original examples I‘ve seen, including some in the more theoretical sources suggest pretty much a liberal use of that chord….
Wow. Another brilliant video. I've met this type of chords before while studying jazz, following Barry Harris' principles. He explained that as borrowing notes in sixth diminished scale. So colorful! Thanks for the video
ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-G1siDXQ92Nw.htmlsi=eKYwmY_5uTj_q56m, this is an example of him playing I'll keep loving you by Bud Powell and applying the same idea
It’s interesting how the “rules” of different eras can change how we perceive certain qualities of chord. In the Strauss, what makes it so striking is the fact that all the dissonances are unprepared appoggiatura. However in the earlier examples there is a tendency for the crunchy notes to be prepared and resolved as one would expect for the time period. Perhaps seeing this clear relationship between (prepared) dissonant note and resolution makes us want to label it as a suspension, whereas the lack of such obvious delimitation in the Strauss makes us go “oooh jazz chord”! I’m not sure
The roots of jazz run much deeper than people really know. Formally it may be a newer style,but echoes of its form are seen throughout western musical history
Great video. This chord really does evoke a strong "Romantic" feel for me, particularly of the mid-19th century period, but you did a great job at tracing it back to its (less Romantic?) origins.
Sehr geil, daß sich hier langsam die Fachleute einfinden. Auf diesem Kanal wird man viel lernen können und interessanten Austausch pflegen. Was habe ich mir in Foren schon Wölfe geschrieben und die Antworten gehen über T-S-D nicht hinaus...
In most of the biographies and autobiographies I've read on Jazz Musicians, they all talk about their own personal classical influences. Louis Armstrong was taught Mahler and Strauss even Opera from a very early age (at the School for wayward boys, where he actually began playing). I think all this false attribution comes from the Hype writers of Metronome and Downbeat. Even Branford Marsalis, a huge fan of Wagner states that "We didn't Invent anything"! I don't really understand all this animosity between Classicists and Jazz Musicians. I don't know when Improvisation went out of Style with Classically trained Musicians, but Hummel was one of the Foremost improvisors of his day and reputedly the only one who could stand toe to toe with Ludwig in a Bat Down. Good, actually Brilliant exposition. Thanks, Jack
In my experience as a pianist, we tend to gravitate more to jazz when we're not listening to classical. Except for those lesser uneducated people who listen to R&B or rap. 😮 oops, another elitist snob comment.😅 But honestly, music has never been reinvented, we've just built on it. Bach use I V IV and Contrale turn it into Giant Steps. Strauss might have used something similar to a I vi II V chord progression, and Richard Rogers rurn it into Blue Moon. We just changed the rhythm.
The 9/7/#5 is a very characteristic of mid-late French baroque. If we take the circle of fifths as progressional grammar (i-iv-vii-iii-vi-ii-v-i), it occurs most often where you would expect a V after ii. All voices do indeed proceed to the V but the bass instead feints and moves similar to an interrupted/deceptive cadence. It's a way to heighten the expression of a phrase and to prolong a to-be cadential figure by foiling the expected bass movement.
@@en-blanc-et-noir One of my favorite examples of the 'deceptive 2/7' is in Couperin's Premiere Lecon de Tenebres, in the section "Plorans ploravit in nocte". It occurs at the climax of the phrase starting at 6:11 in this recording: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-tWJ8E239qc0.html (the chord happens at 6:29). But this chord happens literally all the time in Couperin's music. I think there are some earlier examples in the harpsichord literature from d'Angelebert and Louis Couperin, but I would have to double check. This chord certainly seemed to be a favorite of Francois Couperin's, for sure.
HA! Ewald Demeyere on the keys :D Thanks for the recomendation. D'Anglebert and Louis: for sure! I'd LOVE to see some true 17th century examples of that chord. I actually played several unmeasured preludes by Louis in harpsichord lessons at uni and I feel like the chord was there but can't remember exactly.
What a great video. Subscribed! The most memorable use of this chord to me is as the deceptive cadence at ‘wandle deine Bahnen’ of R. Schumann’s ‘Er, der herrlichste von Allen’. It is so poignant because the root motion implies a simple V-I, but we soon find out it is vi6/3 with this special suspension affixed. It’s probably seared in memory because i biffed it transposing at sight in a public masterclass! I got it right on the second pass-still, you don’t forget those public failures. Cheers and thanks again!
thx for recommending this great example… although I guess the „Frauenliebe und Leben“ will drop out of the repertoire because its lyrics aged badly (to put it mildly)…😂😂 at least in Germany, I cannot imagine any uni allowing a student to still perform the cycle as a whole… probably more some individual „less problematic“ songs. But the example is amazing of course… An aug 5th chord appears as well in the final line of the song after that „Ich kanns nicht fassen, nicht glauben“ on the final word „be-rückt“ as well as some sort of deceptive cadence…
@@en-blanc-et-noir well that is a shame! Americans seem for once to be less sensitive. In fact i find such a superficial and reductive reading offensively stultifying. It takes no account of the context of the poet’s work, or the personalities involved. The set was begun during the lengthy court battle with Herr Wieck. Clara, a child of divorce herself, could certainly have just meekly waited until the age of majority, but chose instead to fight for her autonomy. I personally think Robert was casting himself in the female role when writing the cycle. Let us not forget that Clara was the famous spouse not to mention the breadwinner. But the feeble-minded and less-talented will always seek out a reason to cancel…
I didn't know much about this chord before this video but after you said it, I know exactly what part of the piece are talking about. An absolutely devastating moment. Especially thanks to the spread voicing in the bass register (I think there's a tenth in the left hand?) PS Glad to see you on this channel as well. Thank you for your contributions to music on RU-vid (and elsewhere) :)
Yeah, in the EMB edition, on page 2 (piu lento section), measures 27 and 30 respectively. I can't post an link to a cropped image because RU-vid blocks it immediately, but it's on IMSLP. @@en-blanc-et-noir
One of my favorite instances of this chord is in the final 4 bars of the fugue in WTC I No. 4. It has got the 3rd of the augmented 5th chord in the bass though, so functionally it is a bit different. In this instance, the upper major triad structure is the base-chord while the b6 (or root, whichever way you look at it) is the suspension. This is one of the reasons why i love this chord so much, because it can both imply V-i with a b6 suspension, or a iv - I. In some sense it can be even be seen as an example of polytonality! Overlaying the key of E major over A minor for example gives off the same vibes
6 месяцев назад
Ah, but that's an entirely different chord. It's a chord of the minor sixth and major third. Sure, it is enharmonically equivalent to the augmented fifth chord, but in the old music theory, nobody really thought of it that way, because chordal roots and inversions weren't really a thing. The chord of the minor sixth and major third is much more common. You can find it as the very first chord in Bach's cantata Ach Gott, vom Himmel sieh darein, BWV 2, and the most dramatic one is probably on the words "Mente cordis sui" from Magnificat, BWV 243.
@ I mean... It is definitely a big debate whether you could truly call it an entirely different chord. I don't think you can rely on historical practice for that, since it's mostly obsolete, and I don't think you can definitively distinguish between them solely from voice-leading and inversion alone. But tomato-tomato I guess
6 месяцев назад
@@gustavmadsen8971 It's not obsolete. When it comes to understanding old music, the old view of harmony is superior to modern view. This Rameau-Riemann view of harmony we take for granted today was explicitly rejected in the 18th century by the likes of C. Ph. E. Bach and G. B. Martini, giants of music theory. In modern times, most people who improvise in the historical styles will swear on the superiority of the old Generalbass view, where each interval is reckoned from the bass alone, and not from some imaginary root. Of course, modern music theory has its place, but its applicability to the old music is very limited.
interesting convo. Well I'd say this sonority is pretty much "the chord", you're right, basically it can be seen as an inversion of that very sonority, just as you said. And what matches as well is the syntactical sitiation as easter egg near to the final cadence. A Partimentisto (like Kresimir) usually takes the bass perspective and would say: "bass degree is prime" so I can see his point (although I wouldn't say "entirely different chord") BUT I can as well see - and hear - that the origin of that bar 112 that you're referring to is quite obviously related to that sonorities I made the video about, that's for sure. It's even more complicated as Bachs situation involves as well aspects of a deceptive cadence and that of a Quiescenza (a tonic pedal point realizing a secondary dominant to the IV). Thanks for pointing me to that particular piece and situation again! Great example IMO
You have very interesting videos and actually tackle the root of harmonic invention better than lots of institutions I’ve seen. For that reason, I’m very interested on your thoughts in Rachmaninoff’s harmonic writing! To me personally, it is underrated and (comprehensively but still unfairly) compared to Wagner and Tchaikovsky. Modulations like the one (C minor-E major) starting the second movement of 2nd piano concerto, are brilliantly executed and not forced at all. Or the one in the climax of 2nd movement of third piano concerto, to list a few! His use of chromaticism and pedal notes for creating tension are close to unmatched, in my humble opinion of course.
Hello and thank you very much for appreciation :D As you've been asking for Rachmaninoff: I guess I'm not the right person to ask as I don't know too many pieces that well that I allows me to make a more substantial comment. The stuff I looked more closely and (some preludes including the infamous C# minor haha) I find very, very nice of course. Many pieces seem directly drawn from improvisational practice (in terms of texture, form and haptical pianism) and that aspect I find of course most interesting and my general impression of his music is very positive - you may not know that I have a soft spot for russian piano music in general :D ...but you asked for the harmonic langugage: Wagner/Tschaikowsky... I'd be hesitant towards such comparisons which are an unholy musicological habit that's seldomly illuminating or helpful. He is definitely an individual composer but Wagner and Tschaikowsky probably did have a certain influence - but how about Arensky and Taneyew? There is a certain unifying "harmonic language" in the late romantic Russians, be it Medtner, be it Lyapunow, be it Blumfeld or what ever composer from that academic scene you choose. But like everyone of those, Rach has his individual merits and preferences. To be maybe more precise: when I compare Rach to early Scriabin I find Rach less innovative and complicated and definitely more approachable in general then his classmate which is not an evaluation concerning compositional quality but is just my "technical" assessment: Rach is more streamlined and accessible, and I'd say that is a Tschaikowskian aspect... What I find very stunning in Rach is his combination of modulation/melodic line. Some composers - like e.g. Chopin - may use a lot of "forced" or "rigid" modulations, but Rach most of the time goes with the horizontal flow, just as that modulation you described in the piano concerto. But there is of course stuff that is rather "intellectual" and personal like the Sonatas... All in all I'd as well say: he generally receives not the respect that he should and I would not at all claim any artistic dependency in his writing, he's doing his on individual style, that's for sure. Sorry for lengthy reply lol, it just came over me
Fascinating as usual. Didn't the Russian nationalists (Kuchka) use a lot of augmented 5ths too? Probably another device entirely... (Maybe an idea for a future analysis, hint hint) I first heard this spicy chord in Bach's toccata and so (somewhat restrictively) associate it with the run up to a coda. I use it myself more by instinct than understanding, but I will investigate the voicing further, thanks.
This sonority immediately brought to mind a chord in Bach's toccata, adagio, fugue C Major, BWV 564. In the adagio, the first chord of the grave section is an emphatic F# fully diminished 7 chord over a Bb bass note, which would effectively make it a 5#/7/9/11b (3 omitted, but adding it sounds fine to my ears, just extra extra crunchy). The chord is led into by melodically rather than contrapuntally, with a descending G melodic minor scale (or whatever you wanna call a descending g minor scale with E natural and F#). Then it resolves to a G minor chord, sustaining the Bb in the bass (initially at least). Curious for your analysis and whether you'd consider this a variant of the same idea as the chord in this video, or just something closer to a particularly crunchy, unprepared pedal tone. To my ears, at least, it's all the same; we have dominant chord (diminished 7 instead of Dominant 7) of minor key with already included minor third in base, resolving to expected minor chord. This one is just a little more striking since it is not at all contrapuntally prepared like the other examples in the video.
another comment mentions the ending of WTC I C# minor fugue, where we get an inversion of this sonority once we get into the Picardy zone of the cadence, so to speak. The adagio I mentioned here also has almost identical chords in its ending, where the major 3rd and minor 6th notes are heard simultaneously, over what is otherwise expected to be a major tonic-like chord. The adagio is slightly inverted with the pedal not taking the tonic scale degree. Note that even the rhythm of the "mi do fa" line is nearly the same. I'd say these both differ in function, though, from the chord discussed in the video, since they are exclusive to a cadential/Picardy decoration. Bach does something similar though less extreme in several of the endings of the variations in Partite sopra O Gott, du frommer Gott, BWV 767.
yo Kirk, I would definitely summarize this chord among the sonorities described in the video. I‘ve seen a similar chord in the ‚Chromatic Fantasy‘ with a dim. 7 above minor-scale degree 3. Actually there is a shorts by Tonebase Piano about it, framing it as „crazy Bach ahead of this time“ lol with the comment section going like „chilll dude it‘s just jazz“ 😂
@@en-blanc-et-noir Thanks for the reply! lol at the Tonebase comments. with Bach I feel like the answer is never really 'just jazz' or 'ahead of his time'. My takeaway especially from his more wacky keyboard music is that the only principle he really follows is that every note written is _eventually going somewhere_ sensible. The 'just jazz' implies he's liable to write unresolving dissonance, which I can't think of any cases of (though I can think of plenty extremely prolonged/obscured resolutions).
I'd love to be able to understand the connections and differences between figured bass and jazz theory. Dot you think they describe the same phenomena? Your videos are a tresure! Hope one day I manage to play half of what you can :)
many thanks… I think this cannot be thoroughly discussed in a comment section as this is complex topic… in a nutshell figured bass takes the bass perspective as primary point of view, so specific scale degree in the bass PLUS intervallic „chord“ (with quotation marks, as figured bass chords always imply dynamic contrapuntal surroundings). I guess Jazz theory is mainly about a local chord’s root without necessarily taking into account what the local unifying scale/key is and that is probably the main difference. Example: G7/D in figured bass would be a 3/4/6 „sitting“ on the 2nd degree of C major or C minor, because as dominant this chord is indicating the local key center (and implies limited numbers of very specific progressions afterwards, check Rule of the Octave) so there is a certain idea of functionalism. To most people it seems very non-scientific and arbitrary at the beginning and indeed it requires a certain amount of experience and a lot of context to fully understand it as a voice leading system or rather more: a voice leading continuum. This doesn’t mean that there is no concept of root progressions although some Partimento tin foil heads claim that there isn’t… I know: Sounds super weird lol…
Just to add you can find this chord on the V in many blues songs, especially in New Orleans Blues. Edit: Also in the beginning of "Oh darling" by the Beatles, again functioning as the dominant.
i was going to add something about this too - resolving up a fourth to a major chord usually built on 5th moving to tonic as if it was a dominant. Heard it in Mingus. I wonder if we can find this classical resolution in any jazz progressions....
Illuminating video indeed. Thanks .However in non of your examples the composer used the chord without preparation comparing to the late romantic era ,using, unprepared dissonance on down beat + in the outer voices soprano and bass! .
Thank you so much for such a nice video! I´m wondering, how you search for the examples? Do you have any data base of chords or technique to find them?
haha good question, in this one I didn't "search" for the examples. I play, check out and listen to a lot of repertoire just for fun and sooner or later you stumble upon stuff (that's how I found all the examples seen in the vid). But sometimes I gotta search of course, then I follow my instinct: E.g. for this chord I guess I have a great chance of finding more examples in Schubert as I know a single example (the song "An die Musik", that little interlude in the middle) and I imagine Schubert like a composer that probably has a certain affinity to such a chord, that's just my impression of his style.
@@en-blanc-et-noir wow that´s amazing! I can´t imagine the amount of work that took... My respects! I am a professional baroque violin and viola player but I am digging more and more into composition, and your videos are being very helpful for me as a reminder of things I learnt long ago but also as a very clear compendium and summary of composition techniques. So again, thank you so much!
Handel's Continuo lessons include some 9-7 double suspensions. None explicitly specify a #5, but you could certainly get away with adding it. Also, it occurs to me that an aug 5th over bass degree (4) is enharmonically equivalent to a min 6th over (4) - which is the Neapolitan. Do with that what you will.
6 месяцев назад
No, it's not the Neapolitan sixth (well, in more than two voices, at least). The Neapolitan sixth chord has a minor third and a minor sixth, whereas this chord that is enharmonically equivalent to the augmented fifth has a minor sixth and a major third. The augmented fifth is always accompanied by a major third. They are also on the different scale degrees: For example, in D minor, the Neapolitan sixth chord is G-Bb-Eb, whereas the augmented fifth chord is F-A-C#(-E-G). In Baroque music, there is no such thing as a Neapolitan sixth chord in major.
@ Sorry I wasn't clear... I just meant in the two voices. I know the rest is obviously not the same. I was thinking of it as a possible pivot, for example, in a modulatory context, and in a non-Baroque style.
@ what is the name of the augmented fifth chord. if neopolitan has a name then the augmented fifth should also have a name. if it doesnt have a name then someone should invent one.
Hello ! First of all I really like your content but I have a question. How do you search for these examples ? Like, what is your method to gather so much information about musical details as precise as that. Is it just by listening / playing a lot of music or do you actively search for examples of the chord (for this video) ? If you actively do that, how do you start your research etc. Also, you often talk about a "toolbox" when it comes to understanding a specific style (in improvisation also). How do you decide which piece of music, which fragment, is idiomatic and is to be added to the toolbox ? For example, you gave some ideas for typical cadences in your Chopin waltz improv video but if you take Mozart well you have way more than one or two idiomatic examples for a PAC, so... Do you try to learn each of the "formulae" that you encounter, or do you... Choose somehow ? And last question (sorry this is very long 😂), how do you work on linking ideas when improvising, like, if you have 2 objects ("formulae") in your toolbox but want to create a smooth transition between them (not just Fauxbourdon + Cadence, but like Fauxbourdon + something + cadence), how do you work on the "something", are there specific methods for this? Thanks for the video 😌
Yo, thanks a lot for ya praise. :D I guess I just can answer your first question as the 2nd is just to diverse to be discussed here. Research: I play a and listen to a lot of repertoire and usually check out new pieces on a regular basis, be it for educational purposes (e.g. theory classes at university) or just out of personal interest. I have friends with whom I share a lot of music: who finds sth. intersting shares it on whatsapp lol, if you do this for years you actually gather and discuss a lot of stuff together. For the tutorial videos I get my ideas mostly from my own teaching expieriences and my own improvsation practice. A lot of what can be seen on my channel are my actual teaching and training devices... Another influence for me is reading journal articles: you may not know that there several academic subject related journals out there, some as well online like MTO (english) www.mtosmt.org/ or the German ZGMTH www.gmth.de/zeitschrift.aspx but many others that you can't read onlin but in academic libraries (I literally live next to one of those in my hometown). I regularly check out the recent volumes of those just to see what my colleagues are up to at the moment and what's the current state of research, what's the trends, what's discussed. So I'd say I have a bit of a musicological approach here. I guess instead of the video I could have as well compiled the information into a journal article or a conference presentation. But I decided to put my work into youtube because of the wider audience and resonance and as well because I find the academic bounderies somewhat limiting and stiff. I just find the video format more attractive and more fun to procude although going the "serious" traditional academic way probably would be more fruitful career wise :D
none… both preludes are taken from his treatise „L‘Art de toucher le clavecin“. It is a little manual on keyboard playing but it contains a bunch of little pieces. You‘ll find it on ismlp
Käptn Körk mal wieder :D Tach! Dandrieux ist schon ok würd ich sagen. Nur jetzt seine Bässe für den #5er die sind irgendwie nicht so der Bringer. Interessant sind sie trotzdem weil er sie so ganz genau beziffert hat, dass man von den Zahlen auf die konkreten Voicings schließen kann. Da kann man gut sehen, wie er sich das gedacht hat mit diesem besonderen Akkord und das ist ja auf jeden Fall eine wichtige Einsicht. Als Generalbassschule kann man viele Sachen empfehlen: z.B. den David Kellner, da hat glaube ich der Derek Remes eine instruktive Edition gemacht die es, soweit ich weiss auch online for free gibt. Ansonsnten gibt es das Buch von Christensen, das ist eine moderne Mischedition von zwei Französischen (Dandrieu und de Lambert) und Deutschen Quellen (Heinichen und Telemann) mit ganz vielen Erklärungen und Übungen. Das ist ganz ok würde ich sagen. Ich habe damals im Generalbassunterricht Wolf's "Generalbassübungen" bekommen und das haben wir auch komplett durchgeackert von vorne bis hinten. Danach dann nur noch Bacharien. Ob das jetzt wiederum methodisch der Bringer ist, weiss ich nicht. Ach ja: das Schemelli Gesangbuch hab ich da auch komplett gemacht. Dieser Bachschwerpunkt ist aber so bissle rückständig würde ich heute sagen, so hat man das aber früher gemacht. Generalbass à 4 kann man aber auch mit manchen Partimentoquellen gut machen, in Fenaroli Buch 1 gibt es ein paar die nicht schlecht sind. Von Händel kann man auch viele Partimenti gut vierstimmig realisieren, sehr zu empfehlen sind auch seine Flötensonaten mit Generalbass, die kann man auch gut nehmen zum Üben, wenn man da einfach den Cembalopart für sich realisiert.
@@en-blanc-et-noir Sehr interessant. Und hast Du auch gleich mit dem Figurieren angefangen? Oder nur die engen Akkorde? Mir geht es so - bei Dandrieux z.B. -, daß ich die Akkorde irgendwann in enger Lage in den Fingern habe, aber wehe es kommt die kleinste Abweichung... weite Lage oder eben Figuren, dann muss ich ewig grübeln. 😇
Sehe gerade: Wolf hat ja schon z.T. Figuren und auch Melodien. Da stößt man ja nochmal auf ganz andere Probleme, weil man nicht immer die nächstliegenden Töne nehmen kann.
who argues against the idea of functionalism generally, didn‘t understand that concept properly. That is my honest opinion. There is prominent music theorists that claim that the rule of the octave codifies as well a certain concept of functionalism (which is just a different term for „chord grammar“) and that is a clever and true observation. Ithink there is pretty much a consensus about this fact. What I assume is the motivation of your per-se-rejection of ‚functional harmony‘ is that you summarize that very common Roman Numerals abuse among the general idea of ‚functionalism‘ - which I wouldn’t do. This abuse admittedly is a wide spread and annoying phenomenon but doesn‘t discredit or devalue the idea of functionalism per se. Cheeeers
@@en-blanc-et-noir give references demonstrating evidence that tonal harmony/function exists, because I have found none, just plenty of stories or awkward analogies which dont hold water, certainly no papers on psychoacoustics demonstrating it (T-PD-D, I-IV-V) is real, and not simply a made-up convention for examinations. I continue to look for the evidence. But that is a bit beside the point. If you want to say something goes to the five then just say it goes to the 5 or goes to sol. No inappropriate roman numerals needed.
