It was pure luck. It is impossible for a human being to have that good reaction time. He let the clutch go before the lights went out, but didn't jump the start.
watch and learn. that is as close as you can get without getting a penalty! Perhaps the best start in F1 history. It coudnt be better even if the clutch and the light would be connected.
@@oxizinho if he fully jumped and didn't clutch in (mess up his own start) he would've triggered the jump start sensor. So he didn't get away with anything.
It's not a jump start, because regardless what you see on screen, a jump start is defined in the FIA rule book: "Article 36.13 of the FIA Sporting Regulations: Either of the penalties under Articles 38.3c) or d) will be imposed for a false start judged using an FIA supplied transponder which must be fitted to the car as specified." Meaning, a jump start in not determined by eye, but by sensor (transponder). There is a little slack (a few centimeters) between actual car movement, and movement measured by the transponder. This is what you saw, and what has been used by Bottas. This was both practically and theoretically the best possible start, according to what is allowed. Possible the best start ever, discussion closed!
I realise that. Based on the rules its not a jump start. However thats not what Anthony is saying. The point I was making is how can I show the tyres move while the red lights are still on using just my sky box and the fancy HD screen Anthony Davidson is using can't?
You can see with ur eyes the movement..Fuck sensor, I know by being an engineer that this movement means he started releasing the clutch so the car starts moving..The wheels didnt pass the line but he has an advantage .I dont say he won cos of that now.. The discussion over line of yours ? Are u a successor of adolf? malakismeno
thank you for posting this, now everything is explained. I just hope that Skyf1 with a team of former f1 drivers would take the time and look for the system used for this and not use video to get the answer. He did move before red was out but within the margin of the sensors. It is the same with drag racing
Fanbneyl so from now on every driver should leave 1 meter in his designated starting place...anticipate the start and jump start and gain so much from it?
"The FIA has explained, however, that some movement before the lights go out is allowed because of the need occasionally for drivers to make adjustments to their clutch in those crucial moments before the start." www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/130639/fia-explains-why-bottas-start-was-legal
What rules are you preferring to? Can you show me the link to that rule you just pointed out "Small movements are allowed as he was still in his yellow box"?
Papa mia Drivers have a little bit of room to move the car inside their starting "box". This is the case because they have to adjust the clutch before the lights go off. When lights went off Valtteri was still inside the lines and therefore it wasn't a jump-start. This has been the case for past 20 years in F1.
......Lul no. Once you in locked up position before the start, you will not allowed to move till the lights go off. Doesn't matter if you cross the line or not, it's against the rules that you move before the lights go off.
Papa mia It's not against the rules. Mika Salo (One of the referees in that race) told that Valtteri was moving 0,003 before lights went off. When driver moves 0,01 seconds or more before lights goes off it's a jump-start. This is everywhere in news, it's clear as day that it wasn't a jump start.
I can unpause this on my sky plus box and see the wheels turn and hit pause it again and still see the red lights so not sure how i can do that and the Sky Pad can't.
jaymdee919 I can get two frames in on my Sky box before the lights go out. I'm still confused why this isn't a false start. I know about the tolerances etc but surely there should be no forward movement before the lights go out.
It's all about money. The same reason that they didn't disqualify Villeneuve from the last race in 1997 after he raced the second to last despite be banned, and then had TWO attempts to deliberately take out Schumacher as he exited pit lane. F1 loses ratings and $$$ when there isn't a close battle.
You have to applaud the guy, the start was spot on and he managed to defend his lead for the entire race. He won it fairly 👌 (coming from a ferrari fan)
I watched it on the German Sky TV and they got way more frames out and as they were able to see,he did jumpstart.It was like 3mini frames and between the car starting and the lights going out.Never the less, he was pretty lucky that he got the start so good timed...
I saw it too. He did actually jump start, but he didn't cross the yellow line. It's technically a legal jump start. Deutsches Fernsehen bestes Fernsehen.
Calm down people! Remember this year's China Gp when Vettel wasn't even inside his starting box before the lights went off and there was NO penalty for him
Repe luck maybe, but not experience it's a random time till the lights go out after all, I think it's blatant to see he left the car move to early and was lucky the lights went off and that he was within FIA restrictions, but not experience
Like I said, its impossible to perfectly time a start without jumping it. The fastest a human can react is about 200 milliseconds. He reacted in perfect co-ordination to the start which is only humanly possible by anticipating it and reacting before the lights go out.
I guess F1 drivers on this kinda level risk a bit and try to foresee when the lights go off so he just predicted it and had very much luck that it worked on time and that perfectly
What none of you clearly take into account is the fact that the reaction time is apparently 0.2 seconds, but the car started moving EXACTLY in the same frame when the lights went out. Now, I checked that, analyzed frame by frame on a 60 fps 1080p broadcast, so one frame is 1 second divided by 60, meaning 0,016 seconds. If the car started moving within 0,016 seconds from the moment the lights turned off, then where is the 0.2 second reaction time? There is no reaction time. He released the clutch BEFORE the lights went out. When you react to something, you brain has to process the input data and then send out signals to the muscles, to release the clutch with his finger, and then it takes a couple of miliseconds for the clutch to grab and for the car to actually start moving. So even if his reaction time was 0.2 seconds from the moment lights went out, the car would actually start moving 0.3-0.4 seconds after the lights went out, meaning, that would be 15-25 FRAMES after the lights went out. Even if it's exactly 0.2 seconds as they said, that's already 12 frames people. TWELVE FRAMES in which the car should be standing still and lights are turned off,. but that didn't happen. The car started moving in the SAME FRAME as the light went out. That's impossible, that is medically impossible, because it takes longer for the signals to travel from the eye into the brain, let alone process it and then react to it, and then to send signals to muscles, for the impulse to reach the muscle, for the muscle to react to it, etc.. So yea, it was ABSOLUTELY a jumped started, or at least an anticipated start, which is also illegal. Did that win him the race though? Not really. Yes, he gained a couple of milliseconds at the start, maybe a meter or two, but at the end, he was leading the entire race, and won. It wouldn't have affected him too much if he had a normal start, he'd still get into the first corner as the leader. What people should whine about is how Perez let Bottas through easily, but he blocked off Vettel under the blue flag in the fast S corners a couple of laps before the end, and moved Vettel back from DRS zone to 1,4 seconds, which is literally what saved Bottas, because if Perez had moved, Vettel would have overtaken Bottas during that lap or the one after, he was 0.6 seconds behind Bottas before they reached Perez, and 1.4 seconds behind after the passed him.
@@big_dick_energy It's either luck or sth cheeky. It could be two thing 1.Mercedes can predict when the lights go out 2.Bottas jumped the start but he was lucky that when he moved, the lights went out. There is no 3rd, do you know why? Because it is physically impossible, let assume his brain is lightning fast, the electric signal to foot takes 0.2 to reach, to hands are a bit faster around 0.1 and amazingly it is a linear relation between reaction time and the distance of the organ from the brain.
One frame is 0.041, which is way below human reactions and according to the footage he's not a frame behind he's within that frame in reaction, so he was at best 0.041 slower than the lights. The only reason his start was not a false start is the slack on the system, the system can't be too sensitive otherwise any movement and cars slightly mis positioned would trigger the false start.
To actually judge jump start using video method, you would actually need more frames. We don't know what actually happened between the frames which weren't caught. It's a jump start if 240/480fps was used.
In german Sky they showed some more frames that clearly showed Bottas started about 3 frames before the lights went out. Technically that maybe isn't a jump start, but it is in no way a "good reaction time", because he started before the lights went out. He just got away with it. And that is what Vettel cannot understand: he reacted to the lights going out while Bottas simply drove off and was extremely super lucky that in just that instant the lights went off. Nothing to do with Bottas being amazing. He just was lucky :)
It almost looks like the car is connected to the starting lights. That was something some teams dit in the past haha. Absolutely frightening reaction. Either he gambled it perfectly or it was illegal. No human reaction can reach that
Je was moving before the lights go off if you look on video with more frames but the sensor on the car and on tje groud has some room of error and that helped him for not getting a penalty
That was no jump start. He took off at LITERALLY the exact same time down to the last millisecond when the lights went out. Valtteri was a man on a mission that day. Same thing in Suzuka 2019. He took off like a rocket 🚀🚀
can anyone explain to me where the stewards, or the production got those 0.201 seconds reaction time from? when there is only 1 frame between lights out and tyre movement, which is obviously significantly less than the above mentioned 0.201.
FIA admitted that VB's car was moving forward before the lights went out but within the allocated limit. Now, they won't say what that limit is because teams might start exploiting it to boost their getaway... :-). Also, they said that some movement is allowed to address clutch adjustments, which is a total nonsense because no one adjusts anything fraction before the lights go out. Obviously FIA are trying to cover up their screw up concocting this mumbo jumbo of an explanation.
joro353 their tolerance is 0.010 seconds. One of the judges told the Finnish casters after the race that according to the sensors Valtteri's car moved 0.003 seconds before the lights turned green.
This makes me curious about one thing, do you guys think there could be doping in F1, I mean substance that can improve your concentration or reaction time ? (I'm not saying Bottas uses doping or something, just wondering if it's possible in F1 in general)
The thing is, was he perfectly in the box? Visually it looks like he jumped it, look at other videos. Seems sky feed was a frame or 2 off. This is why a 60fps+ feed is needed. However, if botas wasn't right forward in his box then he would get away with this. If he was right on his mark and did this, the sensor would of probably said he jumped the start.
Marc Connell the statement said he remained in his box and his movement before the lights went out could be accounted for by an adjustment of the clutch to start. This small movement is allowed and since he was still within his box, it was allowed
Das Urteil der FIA war falsch. Bottas ist bei Rot gestartet. Normalstart ist, dass man sieht, dass die roten Ampeln aus sind, und dann startet man - eine Reaktionszeit unter 1 Zehntel Sekunde ist dabei unmöglich, wissenschaftlich erwiesen, und so wird es auch in anderen Sportarten geahndet. In der Leichtathletik begeht ein Läufer einen Frühstart, wenn er die Startbewegung beginnt, bevor er das Startsignal (in der Regel einen Schuss) gehört hat. Hierbei registriert eine Elektronik permanent den Druck der Füße auf die Startblöcke. Wird eine Reaktion des Sportlers früher als 100 Millisekunden nach Abgabe des Startsignals festgestellt, signalisiert die Elektronik einen Fehlstart. Im Schwimmen ist es ähnlich. Eine Reaktionszeit noch VOR Erlöschen der Ampel ist derart unmöglich, dass man dafür noch nicht einmal die Wissenschaft braucht. Bottas hat einen klaren, sichtbaren Frühstart hingelegt und dadurch, dass das von der FiA nicht geahndet wurde, Vettel geschlagen. Vettel und Ferrari wurden dadurch um ihren Sieg und um 7 Punkte und möglicherweise um die Weltmeisterschaft betrogen. Vettel ist darüber völlig zu Recht zornig. Das Urteil der FIA dazu ist eine Farce, eine absolute Frechheit. Vettel, der klar Betrogene, muss sich dafür nicht auch noch saublöde Sprüche anhören.
in a sprint, reaction time is factored into false starts. human reaction time is around 100 mSec. So if a sprinter leaves the blocks in less than 100 mSec after the gun goes off, it's deemed to be a false start. Because he did not react to the gun, he anticipated it. Seems to be the case here also. However if I'm not mistaken the lights go out at a fixed pace in F1 rather than being controlled by a human, so predicting it seems to be a logical and fair thing to do.
Yes, it was a perfectly legal start from Bottas, since he was still in his start box, but these 2 frames doesn't show anything, except his movement, they don't show what happens in previous frames. Again - it was a perfect guess, hats off, but don't lie about these 0.201 seconds, because it's hell of a long time, even my reaction can be better.
There is a sensor on the track and sensor on the car. Since the car can make a little nudge when you adjust the cluch and get ready for the start, the sensor allows a little flex by the design when you position your car to the grid. So: a) If you look the video frames and judge by that, yes, he did jump b) He was still at the accepted area when lights went off, so according to FIA rules, it was not a jump start So everyone here is right, but he got away since this is how the rules say. FIA rules overrule internet judges. Also you need to remember that any driver can try to do the same but the chances are they more likely fail to do so - Valtteri included, if he ever tries it again. So it's playing with very high stakes and it was a dream start for Valtteri.
yeah start like that has nothing to do with reaction time, he just got lucky with his timing or something. its not like he all the sudden got super human skills after taking normal starts for years. also finnish tv showed better slow motion where you could clearly see car moving before lights went out. still no jumpstart cuz of FIA rules and sensors and whatnot
After Suzuka 2019 this just shows that Vettel not getting a penalty is an absolute disgrace. Bottas clearly barely moves here and you can understand him just about staying within the allowed tolerance whereas Vettel's wheels move forwards massively in comparison.
Wheels rotate a bit in red lights, but he is like in neutral at this time - no throttle / acceleration there (also alles nur sowas wie ein "zucken", noch kein Gas geben). The real acceleration follows when lights are already 0,2sec out (so no jump starting for me) ! In all this bullsh.. slomos like this one and all the other slomos as well you can't recoginize that without having the motor sound and normal real life speed action. You can only judge it in the whole picture - by not picking out just one moment for just the media - and with the rest of the details I mentioned.
another video show other wise he didnt zoom into the tires the way the other video did because if he did you would see he moves of just before the lights went out
I don’t get why people still go on about these things. The stewards would have had more camera angles and data from the car and lights than anyone else in the world, and they decided he didn’t jump the start.. so why keep asking a question you already know the answer to???
1. If Valtteri didn't jump the start, he definitely anticipated the start which took away the human element of it and 2. If was bigger than 2 meters, it was about 10
the frames are less than a tenth of a second, how can it be a reaction time of .2 when he drops the clutch in the exact frame the lights go out, it was a prediction or he was cheating.
They seriously went and edit it? That's not one frame, and you convienently leave out the fact that he already started moving prior to the first frame. Sky going through much trouble to get Mercedes on top
I love all you experts who scrub your home tv box back and forth think that you have a more accurate measurement for this situation than the FIA with all the sensors and car data.
We don't. It's just that the FIA has a very questionable idea of what a jump start actually is, an idea that doesn't comply with what any sane person thinks.
He got lucky... All the drivers on the grid will be at the peak level of human ability with regards to reactions. There is no way one guy could start a tenth of a second quicker than everybody else and it not be a jump
He jumped it. No doubt. If his wheel moved the exact milisecond the light changed, means he released the clutch before the lights changed as there is minimal delay in response to throttle and gear change - that change is not instant - so no way he changed gear on the light and the car moved at exactly that split milisecond. No way. Great anticipation? Unlikely - He is lucky the light changed just as his car moved.
The important frames before are not shown! 1-2 frames before the tire is moving too, with red lights on! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-UocQFjqIvZk.html
Thumbs down. This YT video here makes it look like the lights go out, and the wheels start turning in the same frame. That is deceptive. There are other videos, that clearly show the wheels turning a few degrees BEFORE THE RED LIGHTS GO OUT. I don't care, though...I like Valteri, and think he's doing a fantastic job at Mercedes.
No, it's not "fantastic." Botas screwed up, but then got stupidly lucky. Vettel's reaction looked about normal for this bunch - no better or worse than a thousand other starts I've watched.
It's the Mercedes Benz "Werksteam" (official team of the company). i don't care where they build the chassis. The company is german, so is their car dude
If you see it in 60 fps with more frames, you can actually see he did start a millisecond before the lights went out : watch?v=tken_aR8bD8 At first I thought it was exactly on the line, but when you see it in more fps, you realize he did move, even if it was 1 millimeter. Now does that qualifies for a jump start as per the rules, or do you actually have to move out of your box? 0.201 ms is complete BS. Vettel was right.
He beat the sensors then.... I just read that the FIA does allow you to move just a bit, but won't disclose how much as it would be easily exploited by the teams. I just watched another video of Hamilton doing the exact same start at Monza in 2014.
