Radical Nuance - Conserving a Moroccan Portrait 

I mean it was hot table time as soon as he mentioned the impressions... But it's more hot table time!

Could you imagine a drinking game base on Julian’s videos? We’d all be sozzled halfway through! 😂

And don't forget that most artists paint what they can easily sell. The tradition of covertly salacious images in disguise (such as fake "harem" scenes) goes back much further than "orientalism" - many a buxom virgin and child or classical goddess was painted to be ogled.

People in Japan wear western clothes all the time. It doesn't mean they stopped wearing kimono. Also, the artists weren't selling their paintings as documentary evidence of how the sultan's court looked in the 1860s. It's almost like there's a phrase for that... artistic license! Squiggles are a time honored tradition. Yes, let us blame these artists for not first becoming fully fluent in Arabic and not getting every dot, dash, and hamza correct. A law must be issued to stop artists from making squigglies that suggest the presence of writing! Do you know what men fantasize about besides the Roman empire? Wow, a guy painted a picture of a hot woman in a exotic setting. Truly that is awful and has never been done before except by these terrible European painters. What depraved perverts lol. Where are you getting that all of these are documentary pieces? Some are obviously fantastical. The works aren't entitled "Reporting live from the Harem Peephole - Odalisque Slumber Party, 1852" But maybe being purposefully obtuse is what allows your fantasy to work.

@@casimirgythe2181 thing about art is that it influences how people think and approach a subject. The middle east narratively in the west has *consistently* been stereotyped as a mysterious land full of oppressed women and hostile warlike men who need other people to solve their problems for them. The ottoman empire was considered a western power, but also like a child trying to impersonate one at the same time. "Orientalism" by Edward Said for a better understanding. You may also find "The Question of Orientalism" by Bernard Lewis to show some insight into how Orientalists bristled at Said's arguments. Definitely give a look at "At All the Shah's Men" for insight into how the US overthrew Iranian Democracy in the 1940's to protect them from communism, but in reality was trying to let Britain maintain control over their natural resources. When it comes to fetishization of Muslim Women, feel free to endure the condescension of the author in "Do Muslim Women Need Saving?" "Re-Presenting the Harem: Orientalist Female Artists and the 19th century Ottoman Empire" by Megan McDaniel and "Gender, Orientalism and the War on Terror" by Maryam Khalid may also be enlightening. But if you really want insight into how perception of the middle east impacts how the people who live their are treated, look no further than "Iran Awakening" by Shirin Ebadi and the French animated film "Persepolis". I am not saying the art is bad or completely racist. I am saying that the bias of every person influences their work and understanding of the world. Art can be used for propaganda as much as it can be used to educate or inspire. Take a look at how people from the middle east are portrayed in film and media have been portrayed in the last 25 years. How often are they given the role of heros or nuanced protagonists? Even in the animated version of Alladin, the opening song calls their culture barbaric. One can't ignore the fact that perceptions of a nation, a religion, or a people as whole loses its context and nuance if a mass majority of media upholds stereotypes. Japan has its own nuance and context too. From how it responded to western infiltration. To chosing to adopt western culture and technology in the idea of "if you can't beat them, join them". The western world consumes media that Japan has put out. Japan is not viewed as poor 3rd world country that hasn't progressed since the 18th century. The Roman empire is seen as the ancestor of the western world. Its seen as the inheritance of the West, a power that shaped our ideas and notions of several nations identies. It's fetishization is based off the art Rome itself produced. The middle east has not been extended that same courtesy despite its preservation of Greek and Roman texts during the european Dark Ages. Art can be appreciated for the sake of art. But it doesn't exist in a bubble. It's a response. You are right people do depict random squiggles all the time. That's why people didn't want to give credit to the peoples of the mezzo or South American the credit for founding and building their own ancient monuments. Many of the first depiction of Mayan script have elephants and other Hindu elements. Things that we're not actually in the glyphs standing right in front of them. Still, those artists continued to perpetuate the theory that it was another known civilization that created these structures. Ever heard of people claiming things like the pyramids or nazca lines were made by aliens? Yeah. That comes from the notion that western people are the only civilizations capable of being smart enough to build incredible things. Hark back to the Romans. Nobody claims the colloseum was made by aliens. Because that's considered nonsense.

well said!

Thank you for adding research and informed opinion to these comments. The title of this video uses the word “nuance,” and you’ve added a bit more nuance to this discussion. People may agree or disagree, but you definitely have added to the discourse. Thanks!

The problem with critical theories is that the moment you put on that lens, everything becomes problematic because of the theory's bias. If you have a painting that is a caricature of the people and is portraying them in false light or obviously racist stereotypes then yes, Said might have a point. But if the painting is of a Moroccan man sitting at a table during the day, then no it's idiotic to then ascribe the horrors of colonial legacy to that work. Some works are just as they appear, a wonderful composition with a striking subject. Other works can be very political. But to confuse the two is to be purposefully stupid or malevolent in an attempt to manipulate people. Were there artists that could be described as Said is suggesting, yes sure, is every work and every artist doing that, obviously not. As the title of the video implies, "Radical Nuance" each work and each artist has its own nuance. Reductively dumping them all into a set of "problematic/colonial/racist/sexist/etc" art is a tired, stupid, and boring technique used by Marxist 101 undergrads and those under its influence to create windmills for their Quixotic delusional crusade against fake made up problems. I would encourage other people before reading anything to look at the painting, look at how it portrays the subject, to think about the artist who spent time painting it, and then ask themselves, if I was the subject and saw this work, would it offend me? If your answer is no, then you probably don't need to do extra research to find out why you should be offended or why you a century plus later, a culture different, and sitting thousands of miles away should be offended on behalf of the subject.

​@@casimirgythe2181And do you think your argument is helped or hindered by calling another opinion "stupid"?

@@JacquesDeLeon it's not just "another opinion", it's cancel culture. And yes, that is stupid to - reductively dump everything into a category of 'problematic', and to then go on a crusade.

​@belneste there is a big difference between being critical of something and 'canceling' it. As an anthropologist, it's important to understand that some, and the original comment does say much, art will show the sitter in different views that correlate with the painter's view on the society. You have to try and understand the implicit bias (which is subconcious) to figure out if an artwork is true to fact or not. One also has to separate their own bias' from the work they do in order to keep it from corrupting the work. It's also important to understand that not everyone is viewing this art. Art used to be seen as something only those in high society, those with money and power, viewed. Therefore they'd influence those parts of the world based on their ideas of what was existing there. So if an artist paints a simple scene, but imparts his bias of it being riddled with poverty, this can be done with colors chosen or the placement of shadows that western viewers would subconsciously read as 'poor', then the person buying the art will assume the sitter is poor, or unhygienic. Being critical of a system, like how we know that brain capacity between people doesn't really effect intelligence but they believed it did in the 1800s, doesn't mean we can't improve upon it and take the bits that work out, like how there's sometimes roughly a 25cc brain capacity difference between males and females and in some cases that helps investigators identify missing and dead people. Cancel culture would be throwing the whole system out, and erasing it from history, much like the ancient Egyptians did to pharaohs they didn't like, not finding the issues with a system and setting about fixing it, which can only come through being critical.

lmao responses to this comment appear to sum up to“don’t read critical theory because it’ll turn you woke” people still getting upset about Said generations after his work was integrated into serious thinking on these topics and we all moved on

You are awesome! I was searching for Words and i only posted Emojis. You are brilliant! Exactly this!!!!!!

Well, part of its job. It became too yellowed to do the other part of its job well.

​@ordulf7193 the varnish wasn't yellow when it was first applied so it did its job for a period of time.

@@ordulf7193 Yeah I just mean, the major purpose of varnish is to protect a painting. That's what it did. It just also happened to yellow after some time lol!

@@xerodeus2337 Modern conservation varnishes do both parts, for they do not yellow.

​@@xerodeus2337 I agree.

It's because it flattens out the values (shading). A lot of the sense of depth in a drawing is carried by reproducing the patterns light forms when it hits a geometric form. old varnish, especially as it collects dust, converges the whole image to a kind of middle gray because light is reflecting off the accumulated dust. If you pay attention to the before and afters you can see that the dark parts of the paintings get darker just as the light parts get lighter, that contrast between light and dark is really import to making the 3d illusion work. source: am art student

Yes it is incredibly naive and anyone who’s engaged with the field of study would laugh at this casual dismissal of one of the most important sociological authors of the 20th century.

@@ChrisGalardi Important to leftists because he was one of them.

Said was an absolute wank stain and his work is worthless tom foolery.

Yeah, agreed, I was a bit saddened that this argument was presented so onesided and comically overblown. People can still agree or disagree, but flattening down the argument because you don't agreee with it is always a bad look.

@@ChrisGalardi I studied Said and was repulsed by his work. Not that some of the implications weren't merited, but his work was what was one-sided - not our reactions to it.

Seeing your comment after all the white guilt in the comments is like a breath of cool, fresh air.

Lovely Cosmopolitan city Tangier. It has only been an international hotspot for about 2000 to 3400 years.

@@furrymessiahhuh where 😭

@@jazzjj7665 Don't look! You'll need retouching if you see it!

​@furrymessiah that's what I'm saying. Keep that woke $hit somewhere else. Lol. I'm an artist and what's truly amazing is that most artist just painted what they observed. They honestly could not have cared at all about being racist or any of that stuff. When your painting you have to focus, and you also have to love what your painting. People are just looking for an argument in the comments.

I TOTALLY did!!

I was a bit perturbed, maybe jealous, when Julian first introduced his intern. Now I miss Kit! She's cool. Would love to know how she's progressing and see what she's working on!

I let out an audible groan.

@@projektkobra2247 😂😂

@@britaggies2365 I'm hoping to see a Kit exclusive video on this channel one day ^^

in this context its a racist one actually

I would disagree. Misguided, sure, but racist? How so?

The whole reason orientalism became such a problem was because these European artists were changing the realities they saw to better suit European expectations so these paintings could sell. Regardless of their feelings, artists have to make money. While there were absolutely artists that simply painted what they saw, it was a little sad to hear him downplay the criticism here. As he said though, this painting seems to be one of the examples of one made out of simple love of the culture and people… hopefully

Even more flatly racist to say that about the slew of work out of the orientalism movement. Like, it's in the name! I've never heard someone so quickly dismiss Edward Said's work like that, as if he's naive for pointing out the way British and more broadly European art contributes to the colonialist effort to exocitize the "Middle East" and extract resources from it. Like?? Truly out of pocket interpretation here.

Not only broad, it's blatantly false... I'm only one class away from graduating with a BA in art education & I'm convinced he's never read any of Said's work. The fact that he only displays depictions of mundane life when a very large part of orientalism was looking to depict sexual fantasies is concerning. Many artists who became synonymous with orientalism never even visited the places they depicted & became fascinated with a version of "the east" that doesn't exist in reality after reading or hearing about fake cultural practices (or even worse, they did go & lied to appeal to Europeans). It doesn't really take much effort to find this kind of information, even the Wikipedia page for orientalism features quite a few fetishistic works of nude women in spaces it wasn't culturally normal to be nude in & infamous harem paintings.

I miss the name of the artist.

I agree, the mastery of light in the fabric is exquisite!

I like how you put it in context

Great analogue

How dare the people of the past live as if they aren't people of the future!

@@oz_jones Please explain.

@@BlueCoolOla I understand what oz_jones mean. However it is not always as simple as that.

I literally gagged when he said it ToT

I fear his rejection might have to do with the current situation in Israel/Palestine. But i dont want to speculate lol.

@@iandonnelly6684 I've been following this comment section for the past 2 days because I was a bit shaken. I made comments similar to yours. Some people have had a more generous interpretation of Julian's "misunderstanding" of Saïd's work and tried their best not to speculate, given the general (and deserved) admiration for his work. But yeah, I can't wrap my head around it. I wonder whether Julian will address it in the future. Tbh it'd probably be safer for his channel to let the issue die and get on with the next restoration vid as if nothing had happened, but who knows ?

⁠@@elax75I agree. considering one can enjoy a work of art only through its aesthetic qualities and/or view it through its historical/cultural dimension, it may be wise for Julian to focus solely on the aesthetic aspect if treating the historical/social aspect cannot be done with enough nuance within this video format. Critical inquiry is highly valuable to understand the world but its oversimplification may hurt more than help its objective.

Said was a complete and utter fool.

It's because art history is equal parts visual critique as it is literary/poltical/cultural/religious critique. Said's Orientalist arguments are trotted out to undergrads and grad students who are often getting their first blush of "Critical Theory" aka Marxism and many other concepts that are often horrifically misapplied by people who don't know enough but don't have the wisdom to keep their uninformed opinions to themselves. Said's Orientalism is one of the gateway texts to anything anti-European if you're interested in the colonial period. It allows for an instant vilification of one group and victimization of another group. This then allows the budding academic to create utterly inane "hot takes" on any work that you think could be "problematic." Said does have some valid criticisms but they have to be applied properly. That requires research, context, evidence, and actual thought. That a lot of times is unfortunately missing from people who want basically a premade academic theory to support their "I want free stuff" or "Europeans bad!" opinion. Applying Said's Orientalism to this work is idiotic just as its wrong to many works which are essentially North African and Middle Eastern genre paintings.

Well said!!

That's simple presentism. How dare people in the time they live behave as if they're not future people! If you look at what is being shown, the works are a wide variety of genre paintings. They're no more problematic than those painted by the Netherlandish masters. Said's point is uselessly reductive and prevents anyone not from the region from painting anything of that region. That's essentialism on steroids and does nothing for the art historical value of these pieces. The works are tremendous as they are windows into these times and places. Your present day opinion on colonialism or whatever you're channeling doesn't have anything to do with these painters who obviously took extreme care to render their subjects in a way faithful to what they saw and encountered. Have you ever been to some of these places? They are striking, and wonderful, and exotic, and beautiful. Imagine what it would be like at the time of the painting when you can't instantly watch travel videos or scroll through Instagram feeds to become jaded. Said's critique of Orientalism is a cover for his politics and its refreshing to see someone like Julian push past the bog standard academic narrative and deal with these paintings and painters on their own terms and merits.

@@casimirgythe2181: I'm afraid you completely missed the point and it doesn't look like you understand more nuanced than "black or white" opinions, so I'll leave it at this: no, the world doesn't work that way. The fact that humans did reprehensible or just... a bit worse than "morally ambiguous" things in the past doesn't mean that they were faultless or that their deeds were harmless just because a certain type of behaviour was more widely accepted (then again - more widely accepted by which social groups? those whose voice mattered? and accepted or suffered in silence because there was no choice? etc, etc) or that certain terms didn't exist or weren't widespread back then.

@@Airsaber Do you understand why presentism is a logical fallacy? And what EXACT reprehensible thing are you suggesting Coutts did other than paint a wonderful picture? Can you actually defend your claim? Be precise now, I'd like to know how it is you've come by this knowledge that gives you the authority to make such a claim. Or are you just painting him in your own black and white colors of oppressor/oppressed? No one suggested that people haven't done bad and evil things. Obviously they have, but not all people are bad and evil. Sometimes a painting of a Moroccan man is just a painting of Moroccan man. Unless you actually know when and when not to apply a critical lens, you're going to make the mistake of assigning things as being "problematic" when its just your own bias on display.

@@casimirgythe2181: Yep, unfortunately you didn't get the point. I suggest re-reading the comments not agreeing with the rather flippant/dismissive tone re: the aforementioned book and term. And I'm afraid that you are the only person talking about this who writes comments that suggest that the author of said comments sees things in black and white. Nobody else here is talking in such absolutes - on the contrary, people are asking for more nuance.

I have to agree. There is something about this particular painting that makes it stand out.

Totally agree, I fell in love with this painting, wow!❤

Thank you so much for this, I came to the comments section specifically for more info on Said.

💯

i hope he sees this

Thank you, I was about to add my two cents, but you said it best.

Well said. It is hard to imagine how Jean-Léon Gérôme's The Slave Market could possibly be understood as anything other than objectifying, especially given the unreality of the scene.

Why would you object to this marvelous painting?

The subject does not seem to have been disrespected. And it’s from the 1800’s so his clothing, etc is correct.

What the hell is wrong with the painting at all, let alone to a Moroccan?

How did affixing the painting to a solid flat backing create vertical striations rather than a more generally wrinkled look?

@@SeekingTheLoveThatGodMeans7648 Julian, at one point, mentioned that it looked like corrugated cardboard was involved somehow. I can't begin to imagine how cardboard got into the act.

@@johnopalko5223 Could cardboard have been used on the front of the painting to help apply even pressure to the front, in order to press the painting and the wax resin onto the masonite? If so, then the striations from the cardboard could have been molded into the wax between the painting and the masonite. When the wax cooled the striations were there in the hardened wax.

@@MageeMC That's definitely a possibility. In fact, it's most like exactly what happened, now that I think about it. All in all, it was a hack job. I'm glad Julian was able to rescue it.

Yeah I think Julian is off on Said too

Yeah, there is plenty of legitimate criticism of Said, but Julian goes way too far here in dismissing him. Artists commodifying and fetishising North Africa and the Middle East (and its inhabitants) was absolutely a thing - even though that is not a reason to condemn all the art of that period.

All art is a commodity, at least the 'good' stuff is. The artist produces the work, and is paid for it, that is how artists make their living. The same work of art may lie neglected, stay with the owner to be inherited, or sold through a few or multiple hands, in any event it is a commodity, it has a value. What on earth is a "Western Eye"?

WOW, ALL THESE EXPERTS

@@nicktecky55A western eye is a view from a White European based perspective.

Beautifully said.

I regularly have trouble sleeping due to chronic anxiety. When I’m watching one of Julian’s videos, I’ll be nodding off before it’s finished! His voice is just so calming I relax enough to fall asleep :)

This particular video here has been the one that I fall asleep to every night, for a few weeks now, at 0.75% speed

I mean, to be fair, the reason so many people painted it was bcs it captured their attention, it was pretty different that what they saw at home. And i don't think we can judge people, too much, by WHAT interests them, so long as they don't present such things in a deceiving and mean spirited way that doesn't reflect reality, imo. And it's not like things like harems and odalisques didn't exist, unless there is something about it that I'm not aware of? Is it the WAY they painted it that bothers you or is it something else?

@@witcht It's less an issue of whether or not the images depicted by European painters of 'the Orient' were real or not (they most often weren't) and more an issue of numbers. For most people in Europe and America, paintings like Gerome's "The Slave Market" were their only images of what life in the Middle East looked like. Their's good evidence to prove that these paintings were seen as anthropological works, near perfect depictions of the 'Other.' I also agree with the original commenter here- Orientalism involves the complicated relationship between those who produce knowledge (academics and artists like Gerome) and colonial military forces. One reinforces the other. Think about how US media depicting Arabs as terrorists in the 80s-2000s reinforced the cultural image of the Arab as a violent, religious radical. US intervention in the Middle East is made a lot easier if the US people believe the country needs to be protected from Arabs. Said sought to highlight this relationship- not dismiss all art made by Westerners about the East as racist. It's a pretty meaningful reduction of what Said hoped to point out. His original argument is broad, yes, but it leaves a lot of room for complexity. Just because something engages with Orientalism doesn't make it inherently bad- how are people from the region ever meant to challenge the entire construction if just by engaging with its signifiers they're doing a bad, evil thing. Said himself is Palestinian-American. He's well aware of these kinds of complications. Anyway, sorry for the paragraphs. I've spent a lot of time reading with and against Said and I was really disappointed by BR's definition of the topic.

​@@witcht harems didnt exist in they way they are currently portrayed. A the harem was the womens quarters a place where no men could go so they could hang around without being all covered up.

@@call-rickey thank you! julien's discussion on the subject bothered me and i couldnt have explained it any better than you did

@@witcht The guy you replied to doesn't seem to get that 19th/20th century dudes painted 19th/20th century pinups. Sometimes a harem scene isn't a critique on culture or women or politics. Sometimes its just an excuse to paint hot women in a cool scene. They're basically male fantasies about the female locker room. It's why they're naked and having pillow fights. Its because guys think about that type of stuff and usually its not much deeper than "Tits! or Ass!" You hit the nail on the head though. People WANT to judge this stuff and its easy to apply (insert random -ism here) to whatever they're looking at. Did some artists do nefarious things, sure. Or maybe some artists just thought it would be cool to paint a naked woman in a oriental palace. Maybe the artist isn't racist, maybe he was just a pervert and liked titties. Unless there's specific information on what the artist ACTUALLY intended when painting the piece, it's just bad attempts at mind reading from decades to centuries later by people looking to be outraged.

lol! I often imagine him in 1000 years, being reborn as restorator, swearing at his own doing! 😂

I noticed this too!!!! Fucked up

A video that talks about this a bit is "His name was Bélizaire." It was posted by the NYT (there is an article with the same title if you prefer to read about it.)

I'm interested in why you think that is?

In absolute or relative value?

Not many black or brown artists to make portraits of their own people to begin with...

Maybe you haven't searched enough...although why you would says so much about you!

Also, it's Mel-bun, not Mel-borne. I grew up there.

I do love watching Julian work, I’m a fan. However.. his arrogance and lack of art education peaks through once in awhile.

Edward Saids work is racist theory. You have to be a racist to believe in all the critical race theories out there to begin with. What positive change does his work or any of the other bring to society? How does it unite society and help spread peace and love in any way shape or form? How does it bring positive solutions for issues our society is facing today since all this has been applied it seems onto everyones brains? Because I see nothing but racism on the rise, hate, division, blame placed where it doesn't belong, and nothing positive being applied or put in place of what is destroyed over something that is theory not even fact.

@@AvalonDreamz begone chud! i don't care what you think

hey i've been following this comment section for the whole orientalism controversy, but your comment is something that I have been wondering about ever since I started watching Julian's channel ! I'm no art historian so I can't answer the question, but it strikes me as a significant limitation to the argument that the initial state is the intended result (and that conservation aims at restoring the initial state) : obviously painters knew the effect of time on varnish and could theoretically factor that in. As far as contemporary art is concerned at least, there are indeed many artists working with passage of time as an integral part of the art work. For an extreme example :Michel Blazy, a French sculptor, has used orange peels decaying with time - it gets very gross tbh 🤣but yeah putrefaction, mold, insects become part of the work...

Almost as much as "staples"

:) masonite is not a good material for anything (hygroscopic, buckles when moisture content changes), maybe apart from the backing of cheapo-crappo IKEA furniture - the idea of attaching a PAINTING to it is baffling.

Haha yes. Especially since we use it in our house when doing trim work to cover textured drywall!

@@ytfeelslikenorthkorea just googled it, even wiki ppl claim its good... :/ like shit is no better the cardboard.

I CRINGED.

It is a beautiful portrait, but more of a north african man, as Morocco is not in the middle east .🙌

@@NonoyaBiz-bx1pt yes, but I was referring to the other paintings he showed earlier in the video