Raising Monarchs - OE Parasite Prevention (Help The Monarch Butterfly) 

Strong words. I appreciate them. I know that some teachers might be out there who teach because they didn't know what else they wanted to do. Not the majority, though. For me, I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do with my chemistry degree. I love chemistry so much that I didn't want to pin down to a career where I only get to work with one small sliver of the field. While I was figuring it out, I was also living in a "freshman" dorm. It was the no-alcohol dorm, and was always picked last by people, so freshmen got stuck with it. Me? I chose it each year and lived in a dorm each year when attending MSU because I'm a minimalist, and it was skating distance to the skate park near MSU. So, it wouldn't take long for the freshmen taking first year chemistry to figure out, I was a junior or senior who was a chem major. They'd start knocking on my door for help, and I found that I very much enjoyed tutoring them (free of charge). It was pleasurable to see them get it, and I honed the skill of explaining the concepts. That's how I knew, teaching was for me. It takes practice to get good with it, but there are more logical ways to explain things and less logical ways. It's a craft. And takes constant practice and refinement. I don't do it perfectly, but I strive to.

Hey, I greatly appreciate that. Thank you for checking it out, and having the passion/motivation to do what you can. Some say that this makes a large difference, and some say it's a drop in the bucket. All I know is, doing nothing just doesn't seem like an option. Very pleased that these videos could be helpful. That's definitely why they were made!

Thank you much. I appreciate your words, for sure. Very pleased that I can lend confidence to others who choose to undertake this. Ever forward!

Thanks. I assure you, though, I'm no saint. Just a guy, trying to help out the Monarchs. No better than others. I just try to make videos that hopefully can help.

I'll continue to do what I can when I can. Thanks for using the info!

Very awesome! Welcome to your second year!

Very cool. I hope you'll leave a comment after a bit and let us know the results. Good luck!

So far so good just had my last one hatch today OE free

I live in So Fl and it,s may 31, 202O. I’m in the middle of my second run of helping the Monarchs this season and I got pretty serious this time. I had no clue about oe virus. Needless to say there was a very high failure rate with the first 20 or so eggs. Those that hatched and progressed to crysalis were largely black and did not make it. I dont know what killed them but after I saw your video on ‘oe’ i decided to “treat” the leaves with your method. Now I have 37 crysilites, so far, that are hatching on schedule and appear to be healthy. My question is, Is it necessary to treat the eggs? Not sure if the virus is in the egg already or just transferred from the leaves. Thanks for all your help.

@@clarahaydari4849 super late comment but the eggs need to be bleached because there is OE on the egg and the instar eats the egg once it’s born and that is its initial contact with the OE.

You're welcome. But, "good", "better", or "best" still depends upon the results we all get. I'll be doing this too from now on. Let's hope it really is the "best"!

Ana, you know I think you're awesome, right? I do. But we disagree here. But it's okay to disagree! I think what you're doing is great, and really, I only maybe 51% disagree, 49% agree. I too have wanted to keep them around and let them experience things. But I don't trust myself to be thorough enough with cleansing. I've read plenty (A lot? A little? Everyone has different standards for those words.) of history of humans thinking that they are in control of situations, ecologically speaking, when they were not. So, even if I *think* I have trouble shot everything, and have cleansed everything, I still can't take that risk. It requires only 1 spore to get where it shouldn't to re-contaminate. Then, it's not one, but two (or more) Monarchs that I raised that I have to euthanize. This is why I don't do what you are doing (and let me stress again, I don't think you're *wrong* for doing it, I just won't), and will not recommend it either. Sometimes, my students don't always understand, people in science can disagree, but that doesn't mean they dislike what they are disagreeing with. They just see it differently. I hope you understand this, as I'm sure you do. Much love goes out to you, and your Monarchs that you take care of! Your heart is huge!!!

@@MrLundScience I love that you are smart enough and humble enough to admit that we cannot control everything, nor are we perfect. Thank you.

I agree with both you and Mr. Lund on this topic. If Mr. Lund, who is a scientist with years of experience in laboratory settings and who has done a ton of research and prep and knows how to prevent cross contamination, still doesn't trust that he can prevent it entirely, then the rest of us almost certainly can't. Yet I cannot bring myself to euthanize the infected or possibly infected monarchs either. Like you, I keep them completely separated - like, rooms apart - and do the best that I can to not share tools, surfaces, etc. Plus I not only wear disposable gloves, which I change in between enclosures, but also wash my hands and save the quarantined monarchs for last whenever I'm tending to the caterpillars (and butterflies when they can't be released yet for whatever reason). And I never, ever release the infected ones. Still, even after all of that, I know that there is a risk, but I choose to accept it.

@@craftyninjacat hi. I’m currently taking care of an infected Monarch. I had two but one died yesterday at 7 days. The second one is enjoying himself. I don’t have any other eggs or monarchs so I’m not fearing cross contamination. I had to cut 40 plants down to the roots Heavy OW infestation in S Florida 2024

Gooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaalllll!

You're absolutely welcome! Hope it works out well for you!

Glad I could help! And pleased that you found it to be easy. I agree. Seems like the simplest method that also allows you to keep track of every egg while you do it. I've heard of other methods where the eggs aren't counted before and after, and this can lead to an egg parting from the leaf while in solution, and never be found. Easily leads to over exposure and death of the egg. And in some cases, if some are doing multiple, depending upon the process, by the time one is done counting and realizes they're missing one, it can be too late. Thanks for doing what you can!

I'm glad that these were able to help you out. Good luck with your new hatchlings!

Hey, you're certainly welcome. Thanks for checking them out. As for the camera, I use multiple different ones, none that expensive. For the close shots, though, all I'm truly doing is using a jeweler's eye in tandem with the camera. Usually, because I can get the jeweler's eye closer, I'm using my phone camera for most of the close shots. That's it. That, and holding my hand (and breath) as still as I can.

Me too!!

Glad to hear it. Good luck with your results!

Much appreciated!

I wanted to make this video last year, but couldn't, as there just was never a batch of eggs I could do at a time. I didn't want to do it to just two or three, and try and conclude results from such a small testing sample. Things are better this year. When you started telling me of your plight, as have some others this season from Florida and the West Coast, this vid became my number one priority. I definitely had you in mind and others who have similar situations when I made it. I really hope this gets you better results, and will be so hopeful waiting to hear from you that you get some OE free Monarchs this season!

I only was able to wash and harvest 3 eggs yesterday. The winds are strong right now due to a tropical storm nearby and I think the butterflies don't like the windy conditions. Soon I'll be washing many more eggs and I will let you know how they do when they emerge. I did check previous test cards under my microscope and I think I'm looking at OE. It looks slightly different from your videos of OE but maybe just a difference in microscopes? Is there a reason you store your samples on cards rather than slides? Easier to document? Below is a sample from a butterfly that emerged deformed a week ago and died a few days later. Magnification is 10X. Valerie

What you are referring to as "below", I'm not seeing. If it was a link, it's not there. Not sure why it would look different, but I'd be very interested to see an image. If you have a Twitter account, you could tweet it to me @MrLundScience Yeah, I've noticed many more butterflies of all species on warm and non-windy days. As for the note cards, it's all about cost. It's cheaper than slides, and gets the job done. You're right, though. It's also easy to document, and now I get a card to represent every Monarch I've released (or have not released) which makes calculating rates of OE easy. Then, I take that info, and can compare it to my journal to know the overall success rate with OE, and the overall success rate without OE. I want to keep the cost down for myself, sure, but also, I think that getting into this type of conservation work is more appealing to others if I'm showing always how very cheap it can be. The microscope, though, I admit, is the more expensive item, but hand held ones can be bought online these days for I think less than $10. They come with lights built in too!

I have heard the same, and the logic is sound.

Hah. It gets mowed down to nothing by the caterpillars every two months

Glad to hear it! Since bleach treating eggs and leaves, I have yet to have an outbreak of anything. It's only been two years of it, so too soon to tell, but I don't see any on the horizon.

Hey, you're very welcome. Thanks for checking it out and being interested in the Monarchs!

Glad you're along for the ride. Yeah, I focus on the eggs too, but, if I *can* find a female in my yard, I will usually have her lay eggs for me. (Have you watched the "Encouraged Egg Laying" vid yet?) This way, I don't have to spend as much time hunting for them in the field, and can get my numbers up there with less time. And I, too, am greatly anticipating the coming of the season!

Thanks for the reply Rich, now that I watched your OE video I have ordered a microscope and will test for it. I actually froze 5 of my deformed wing butterflies and did the tape thing and looked at them under a friends microscope and sadly they all had the OE spores, so this season I will treat the eggs and also test each Monarch to make sure I am not spreading the OE virus. I wonder how many I released might have had it.

Concerning the ones you've already released, hey, worry not. I spent 4 years raising Monarchs before I knew OE existed. But, we learn as we go.

Getting to the bottom of eggs...now that's dedication! So cool to hear that bleach treating is already having positive effects in your location. When it comes to OE, I suppose that "Everything's bigger in Texas" rule applies. Photos are cool, but I don't use Facebook. You can certainly tweet them to me through Twitter: @MrLundScience But, I understand not everyone uses Twitter. Great job, and good luck during this high point of the season!

Are you on the Houston Monarch page? I'd love to see photos of this. I'm in Conroe.

Nicole, I'm very sorry to hear that this has happened. My sympathy for your situation, for sure. Let me ask some questions, though... By chance, did the caterpillars turn black after they passed? Next, did you bleach treat the leaves that they were fed, not just bleach treating the eggs as shown in this video? If the bleaching is the cause of death, then that would mean that there was still bleach on the leaves they were eating. The solution to this (no pun intended) would be to either rinse more thoroughly, or not expose the leaves to the bleach for as long, or both. It's possible that if the leaves are exposed to bleach for too long, they will absorb enough of the bleach to cause problems. If you are 100% sure that you didn't over expose your leaves to the bleach, and 100% sure that you rinsed them thoroughly enough, then you can also be sure that the bleach treating didn't kill your caterpillars. If a mistake was made, the best thing to do is admit it to yourself (which is hard in life...I've had to do it a number of times), but then we also are empowering ourselves to have learned from it. I'm not saying you did make a mistake. I don't know if you did or not. I'm just trying to help you pin down what happened, and if all 16 died at the same time, we can know that they had the same cause of death. Again, I'm fully sorry that this happened. I wish I could be there with you to do the process together and see what results that would yield. Thank you for your care and compassion for this animal, for sure.

@@MrLundScience Thank you for the reply. Very kind of you to take the time. I made my dilution per your specific instructions, used a stop watch for bleaching both eggs and leaves (60 seconds) & rinsing (1-2 mins). I was big in the rinsing of everything from Containers to eggs to leaves. Placed all eggs/leaves on clean dry paper towels to dry. Placed 6 per container. They were only a day old & so small that it's hard to say but I think they eventually turned dark as they desicated but not like I've seen with a few other OE affected cats I had in the past. I'm sure it was something I did, I just can pinpoint what. I'm never going to do it again though. That was WAY to large of a loss. I am still very grateful for you and your videos. I love science and I resonate with your scientific approach. And I'm a little envious of your screened in porch and the size if the Milkweed you get there!! Monstrous compared to ours!!! Happy Summer and best of luck with your brood of butterflies 🐛🦋

If they didn't turn black, and very dark within a day or so, you could rule out NPV. Have you seen what cats look like if they are victims to NPV? I appreciate that you appreciate the scientific approach. It's my bread and butter. Also means, you might enjoy some of the other non-Monarch types of vids I'm putting out. Got a lot of exciting things coming soon...

@@MrLundScience any thoughts on miracle grow? I used it one time prior to hatch and every single baby cat that has emerged eventually drops to the ground by a silk (I don't think it's the tachnid silk coming out though), they sort of roll around not crawling well and if I put them back up they may feed for another day or two but dies within a week. I also see they are trying to eat only the very smallest new growth when they are feeding. I don't use ANY other sprays or fertilizer or anything.

@@nicolefrizzell4193 What type of bleach did you use? Did it have perfume or splash proof? Also, the 19:1 ratio is ONLY good for bleach with sodium content of 5-7%. If it is over 7%, use the 32:1 ratio. I used the 19:1 with 8.25% and killed all my cats. I had no idea. I thought bleach was bleach! I'm using Clorox now with 7.25% sodium. I plan on using a 28:1 water to bleach ratio.

"Monarch Madness of Wisconsin" is a killer name! They should make some awesome, heavy metal looking T-Shirts!

Yeah, you totally got me on that one. Sometimes, thinking about how to shoot the video, and the brain drops one of the things I do when not filming the procedure. Seriously. It's a goof, and this guy has some red face. Someone else pointed this out in one of the comments below. You guys have some good eyes, and meticulous attention to detail!

MrLundScience just looking out for the butterflies. Keep up the good work!

Most definitely. Always know, I both welcome and appreciate when mistakes like this are pointed out. I *want* to be corrected if an error is made. That's how we improve.

Thanks. Glad you checked this one out. Can you drop the OE testing if you bleach? That's entirely up to you. First, even when someone doesn't bleach, whether they OE test is up to them or not. So, if someone's bleaching, OE testing will still be something they can decide. I will always test for OE, and here's my reasons: 1) I will want to confirm constantly that bleach treating is working. 2) These days, since I started doing it, the note cards I wind up with become one way that I keep record of how many I release. It used to be all things I'd write down in a journal table I had in my notebooks. Now, I just keep the card, and I write the date of release (which is also the day it emerged), the sex, and whether it was "OE Clean" or "OE Infected". Then, at the end of the season, I can just count out how many cards I have. I can count only those clean and released to get my number for calculating success rate, and I can also calculate the level of OE that appears in my process compared to "clean", which, should be 0%. So, I know I'll always do it. If you test for OE often, it becomes pretty quick and easy. Then, I have a card to represent each Monarch I've released, and it also has its scales on there too. They came in handy for this music video I made: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-6PVDSA011No.html

Your wish is my command! Actually, an instar video is in the works. I'm likely going to put it out after some other ones, though. Many are dealing with pests/predators, and NPV right now, and I want to try and get those out before the summer is over in the hopes it can benefit them this year. But yep, instar identification is on the way.

Glad your working on Npv!

The ants are likely after the honeydew released from the aphids. You can use a waterspray nozzle to knock the aphids off which will help reduce your ant levels. I live in Columbus, I saw my first monarch lay eggs on the 12th! Yay! Please any info you have to offer would be greatly appreciated! Released 7 OE negative butterflies last year, hope to release more this year.

There's no reason to refrigerate the bleach solution. Things we refrigerate, we usually do so to slow down the chemistry of bacteria that is in our food. There's bacteria everywhere, and they are constantly at work to spoil our food. But, if it's colder, it takes them longer to "get the job done". When it comes to bleach, though, bacteria doesn't spoil bleach, but the other way around. Bleach spoils (kills) bacteria. So, when I said there's bacteria everywhere, it's better to say, just about everywhere, and definitely not in your bleach solution.

MrLundScience Excellent! Thank you so much!! You are one busy Monarch advocate!

Welcome!

Sweet!

As they are potted, yes, I know of people having made a 5% bleach solution and doing this to potted plants. I'd recommend at least one extra pair of hands helping if you can. Now, I've NEVER DONE THIS and I just want to be clear about that. I'm definitely not giving experienced advice. This is disciplined speculation at best. Definitely, any plant you wish to do this to would need to have the caterpillars removed. Eggs, however, if I were in your shoes, I'd take in and use controlled environments. Back to the plants, I'd be sure to rinse them way more than you think you need to. If you think you've done enough, do what you did one more time. Make sure there's no trace amounts of bleach in crevices. A little can go a long, fatal way for a caterpillar. I wish you luck!

First answer to your question: I'm not sure what's happening. Second answer to the same question (more speculative): I would *think* the culprit could be NPV. I don't believe OE causes them to regurgitate. The seizure part, I'm baffled by. I need to look more into this, but I've *heard* (and thus, do not *know*) that a 5% bleach solutions, such as what is made here, can handle and cleanse NPV. When in doubt, sterilize! But always make sure to rinse even more thoroughly than you think you need too*. (*Don't follow that logic too literally, or you'll never stop rinsing.) Even a small small concentration of a bleach solution causes a significant change to pH levels, and that could be harmful to the cats.

You may have missed it, but I do mention in this video that yes, once you have cleansed the egg, if you are in a high OE region, you really do want to cleanse food leaves the same way to ensure no infection. You'll certainly want to make a larger batch of the solution, though, and then you can do many leaves at once. Make double triple bonus sure to rinse the leaves afterwards even more than you think you need to. Trace amounts of bleach, when ingested, can build up and be fatal to the caterpillars!

Hose them off the best you can. But it's a daily chore.

Could be OE, hard to tell for sure if you can’t test them as butterflies since they don’t make it that far. I would try this and see if it’s successful (it is for me). Good luck!

I'm not totally sure when NPV will be out. I have learned, don't set dates for when things will be out because 1) I'll probably be wrong and 2) It causes you to want to rush to meet that date, and the video can lose quality because of rushing. I do know that many could be helped by just a discussion of NPV, and so it's on my priority list of trying to get it out before this summer season ends. But, as per usual, I have a lot on my plate. Prior to this outbreak, I have had maybe five in total pass due to NPV (or at least, what very much looked like NPV). And this is over the 6 prior years. It was always just one caterpillar, isolated, and I would sanitize, and not see it again. So, I was not rinsing my leaves with bleach solution. Shortly after making this video on OE bleach treating, that's when the NPV outbreak occurred. Everything looked fine the night before, and then I woke up to find about 25 dead. Sanitation happened immediately, but by the end of that day, about six or seven more expired. It was about a third of what I was raising at the time. After this experience, I am now bleach treating every leaf. I'll be mentioning this in the NPV video.

MrLundScience my cats are in what appears to be in the 5th instar. However some have been acting strange. Some went to the top of the container to j hang, and then instead they molted. And they're still up there. I'm very confused? Don't know what to do

If they molted again, that would be evidence that they were not in 5th instar yet. Thus, they were not going up there to J-hang, but to molt. Most of my caterpillars will go onto the tops of the containers to molt. It's a normal occurrence. Keep in mind too, size doesn't tell us what instar a caterpillar is. Size can be based upon amount of food eaten, but also, just variance within the species. So, you can have a very large 4th instar, and you can have a small 5th instar, and the two could look very similar. A large 4th instar could in fact be larger than a very small 5th instar (though that'd be extreme).

MrLundScience nice to hear it's normal ! Was a little worried. I wish I could tell the difference between instars though. It's a little difficult :/

The colors on the fifths are richer than on the fourths. They'll be a deeper yellow and the black stripes will look velvety :) (And if they're nearing the two-inch mark, they're probably fifths)

I have milkweed plants that i cover with netting bags from Amazon. We have alot of rabbits that eat the plants.This is why i cover them.I also have plants i leave for the monarch to lay eggs. These are swamp milkweed and common milkweed. They are quite tall so rabbits can't reach the top. If i just feed the catterpillers the covered milkweed they should be safe from OE. I haven't tested for OE yet. I am new to this. Next year i will test for it. But will bleach the egg.

I wish you much luck. Follow the recipe and procedure diligently. You should have success. I've had many from Florida especially, where OE is rampant, tell me that they've raised many OE free Monarchs after trying this out. And I've done this process to all of my eggs this year without issue.

@@MrLundScience thanks! I watched your bacterial and NPV (i believe you called it) video you made and that was actually what was probably going on with mine, i lost 15 this year, they would be fine and then just start spitting out black stuff and when they died more of it would ooze out of them, so next year i will not only clean the eggs but all the leaves too! I've never had this problem before so i'm glad one of my subscribers told me about you!

What's nice about the process is that though NPV and bacterial infections can have similar symptoms, bleach treating takes care of both.

In the making of the video, I looked over what the range was of various major brands of bleach. With that range, a 5% solution was always within the actual concentrations their ranges could provide. Each case, the exposure time and range of true molar concentration was never crossing any line of harming the egg, nor not being effective against OE parasites. Thus, after investigating the 5% recommendations I was hearing, turns out such Monarch resources were thinking this stuff through already, with your question in mind. Does that make sense? There's definitely horizontal transfer of OE, meaning an "infested" adult can transmit it to an "uninfested" adult. I've been given advice on using terms more correctly, and with OE, "infected" is different than "infested". When a caterpillar has taken in OE spores and they are multiplying, during that stage and while in the chrysalis, the parasite is internal, and the animal is "infected". When the adult emerges, the OE spores are on the external parts of the body, and the adult is "infested". But yes, horizontal infestation can happen. What it does to modify my practice isn't much, as I already release upon them being ready. And admittedly, OE isn't high in Michigan, and because of the sanitation I do, I don't really have any positive tests. I might get one or two in a summer. I would say, though, I would recommend that if someone is looking to avoid such cross infestation, they should minimize ways they are housing any adults that are about to emerge from the chrysalis so that they can be released individually. How strict they should be about this would depend upon the level of OE they experience in their area.

Greetings Heezeize! Thank you for doing what you can to help out the Monarchs, and also for being willing to do the added step of bleach treating. As a chemist, though, I don't trust the vinegar idea. I'm not saying it *can't* work, as the chemistry behind the idea is sounds. Bleach's main ingredient that does the bleaching is the weak base, the hypochlorite ion. And adding a weak acid like vinegar (acetic acid) can certainly neutralize the hypochlorite ion. *However*, without proper measurements, one could possibly not neutralize all of the hypochlorite, and accidentally trust that they neutralized enough. Further, any vinegar treatment to the eggs can weaken the egg shell if over exposed. To have a standardized method, a vinegar concentration would need to be known, and correctly adjusted to match the neutralization of the bleach. Since those numbers won't be that easy to come by, I don't know that I'd go that route. That's just me, though. As the bleach is capable of being rinsed away, I myself will be sticking with this method. The vinegar, which needs to be rinsed away anyway, seems like an added unnecessary step. Still, I think it's cool to be thinking about such things and always looking for ways to improve our systems, so thank you for sharing this!

Greetings Dawn! There might be a video that you haven't seen yet, as I have one on what your first question is asking. It shows how I bleach treat leaves: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-2FE9646Z9xs.html Will this dry the leaves out at a faster rate? It's tough for me to give a definitive answer to that. From my experience, no, but at the same time, I don't distrust what others are saying. I just haven't experienced this. One reason might be, I use only Common Milkweed leaves, and perhaps other species of milkweed do dry out faster. Another reason is that if leaves are exposed for too long, they may absorb more of the hypochlorite (the active bleach ingredient) than if treated for the time I recommend in that video. Not trying to say any who you've heard this from are doing it wrong, but, let's admit that it's a possibility. On the heels of that, it's also possible that leaves might not be being rinsed as thoroughly. If someone is having issues with the leaves drying out too soon, and they are using Common Milkweed, my first recommendation would be to rinse them even more than they currently are, and see if that helps. If it does not, then the next step would be to double check their measurements, and double check their exposure time of the leaves (how long they are placing them in the solution). If all of that is being followed correctly, and they are using Common Milkweed, I'm really at a loss as to what to recommend. Again, I just don't have this happening with my leaves. (And with all of that, I've been assuming that they are wrapping paper towel around the leaf stem and moistening it, just as I do with my leaves.) If they are using a different species of milkweed, then that is the most likely variable in what is causing the difference in results, and I'm also at a loss as to what to recommend, as I just don't have easy access to those other species of milkweed. Still, I know of some in Florida who have reported to me that they are bleach treating their Tropical Milkweed, and that they are producing butterflies that are OE free, and none of those people have told me that their leaves are drying out. I imagine that if this was happening, they'd be reporting it. I hope, somewhere in there, that answers your first question! For your second one, as my adults emerge, they are in my screened in porch, and I certainly must let them do their thing during the first few hours so they can get their wings out and dried correctly. Once they are willing to fly off the yarn and onto one of the screens, I take that as a signal that they are ready for release. I try to test and release soon after that, but admittedly, yes, it's a possibility that if heavily infected, they could transfer spores to the yarn, or, to even my screens. Further, it's also a possibility that another butterfly could pick up one or more of those spores. However, while it's a possibility, it's not a likelihood. I'm lucky to live in Michigan where OE isn't prevalent. That already makes it a rare chance that they would have it. But since I also bleach treat eggs and leaves, it's pretty tough for OE to get into my system. Since bleach treating, I've had zero OE. That may just be because it's not too much around here in Michigan. But as stated before, some in Florida have told me that since they started bleach treating, they've had zero OE as well. If I lived in Florida or any other place where OE is much heavier, even though I'm bleach treating for OE, I probably would modify my process for eclosing. I'd set up separate containers for the adults to emerge in, preferably one at a time, so that it has room to dry its wings, but would only hypothetically contaminate that one container. (We buy dog biscuits in bulk containers that would be perfect for this, now that I think about it.) If a Monarch was tested from such a container and had OE, certainly that container would be sanitized fully, and this would prevent the spread of spores to others. How was that? I hope this information was clear and what you were looking for!

MrLundScience Hi Rich :) I will watch that video, thank you. I've also read that we need to keep the cages dry so I stopped wrapping the ends in wet paper towel since I think I may have had that NVP. It's hard to know what to do sometimes. One person said we should spritz them with water. I have another sick caterpillar that hasn't eaten for over 24 hours but just sat there while it's two cagemates became chrysalises. Then today, all of a sudden, it started looking for a place to set but not before it passed one wet poop. I'm sure it will for before it chrysalizes I will start cleaning the leaves. I have been wrinsing them but just in water. My first butterfly will hatch soon. I bought a microscope and am set up to go. Not sure if I'm cut out for it. This will be the first caterpillar I've lost. Maybe I'm doing more harm than good. Maybe I should just plant milkweed. Thank you very much, Dawn

Yeah, how moist the container should be or should not be is another gray area, and a place where many will debate. I've read online discussions about it, not really chiming in, and have seen people argue back and forth without ever seeming to bring up that it matters what kind of container they cats are in. If it's small and not well ventilated, yeah, keep moisture to a minimum. If it's well ventilated and larger, moisture is unlikely to cause problems. With my method of wrapping the stems of leaves in moist paper towel, it's moist enough to prolong the freshness of the leaf, but I don't have mold problems. I do the same in my larger, 4th/5th instar container which is well ventilated, and I don't have problems. I don't spray any water on the leaves...caterpillars can get all the moisture they need from the leaves themselves if they are fresh. That's what I know, and don't care to step into the debates you may have seen too. For me, it's all about results, and with my process, I don't seem to have mold problems, so don't plan on changing something that is already working. Hope that helps! If you still enjoy this, I say, don't give up. I tell students sometimes when they tell me that they aren't cut out for it, I remind them that we can improve at anything we wish to, if we're willing to put in the time and effort. I am horrible at skateboarding, I think, but can impress students with the tricks I do. I tell them time and again, I wasn't cut out for it at all...I just didn't give up and had to work hard to get where I am with it.

That is odd, for sure, and that it's happening multiple times does indicated some type of health issue from which they were exposed to the same source of it. It could be OE, but it could be something else entirely. Have you done any OE testing? If the Monarch is deceased, there's no harm in using tape to try to collect OE spores from it (or even the emptied chrysalis inside). Here's a video on how to test for OE: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-pxXkAL1h2pw.html And here's another that shows another alternative way: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-32IqyxjOUfM.html

While I am somewhat familiar with garden zones, I don't know them 100%. The question I'd ask is, is tropical milkweed native to your area? You have stated that you wish to receive the "benefit" of the tropical variety. What "benefit" are you referring to? Some would say that there are multiple benefits, so this is why I'm asking you to single out the one you mean, so it's easier to answer the question. In addition, some who work in the field of OE and study it would argue that some of the benefits aren't actually benefits, but can cause harm to the population. Tropical milkweed is perceived as having a benefit as it has what has been referred to as medicinal properties that help Monarchs resist OE. That certainly sounds like a positive thing. But, the problem arises that Monarchs that have this benefit still can be infected with OE, and the OE that still survives to the spore stage can potentially be a stronger strain, as it survived despite the medicinal properties. Thus, when those adult Monarchs spread the spores, they can be spreading a more virulent strain of OE, which can cause populations problems, especially if it is in areas where tropical milkweed is not native. With that said, I would not say that I myself am an authority on this decision. There's a variety of scientists who study milkweed, Monarchs, ecology, and parasites who have weighed in on this, and even they are not in agreement. So, think it would be pretentious of me to offer recommendation here. However, I did present this information for others to consider in this video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-5WEewtof3w8.html For my yard, my general idea is that if it isn't native to Michigan, I wouldn't want to grow it. That way, I know I'm playing it safe. Good luck!

MrLundScience It is not native in my area as it supposedly cant survive the winter here. I’m assuming that if it dies back to the ground, or if it is cut, that it would basically just simulate the native milkweed in my area and cause no issues. Of course this concept hinges on the assumption that new growth would be free of the protozoan. The benefits that I am referring to are basically just the plant being the “preferred” milkweed of the Monarch to lay it’s eggs on(anecdotal evidence is all I’ve seen). I get not wanting to plant things that are non-native, but then of course we wouldn’t have fruit trees and varieties of fruits and vegetables if we all did that, so I can’t go along with that one. I just figured A. curassavica would be no more of a threat than native milkweed species if it was tended to very diligently. It seems to be demonized a lot.

You are correct that if it is cut down each year, the new growth would not have OE spores on it. The situation that could still arise, however, is if a wild Monarch that is infested with OE lays eggs on the plant. When those eggs hatch, they have spores on them, and even in the process of just eating out of the egg, the caterpillar could then be infected with OE. If it is fed the more medicinal tropical milkweed plants, then it's possible that the OE would not develop as much in that specimen, but it's also possible that more virulent OE strains could develop within that caterpillar. If that caterpillar makes it to an adult and is released, it then would be infested with not just any OE, but an OE strain that could cause more damage to a population than normal. With all that said, though, that doesn't mean that you need not have any tropical milkweed. I'm more just trying to explain why some object to it. If someone is bleach treating eggs and leaves, it essentially becomes a non-issue, and I know of a few who have tropical milkweed as their main food source for their cats, bleach treat, and have had no issues. For me personally, I only plant what is native in Michigan, but I don't say that from a point of view of thinking that this is what everyone needs to do. I just personally choose to go that route to avoid even potential mishaps, and it's more about happily staying out of the minor controversy that some people make out of it. Your point about fruit is certainly a good one! And again, that's why I am not "taking a stance" on it, so to speak, I just choose what I choose out of personal reasons. And if you look throughout the rest of the yard, you'll see that with flowers, my wife has already deviated from this idea of "native only". Ha! For my purposes, Common Milkweed is a preferred option mostly because of the leaf size. It's native to Michigan (and so many other places) and provides the largest leaves, which allows me to have much food on hand in a pinch. To keep my plants from being decimated, I still take leaves from nature, never more than two leaves from a plant. But not everyone has that option, of course. I hope this discussion has helped in some way. Good luck in your efforts!

Without knowing what the pesticide is, I can't advise on whether bleach treating the leaves would help. Most likely not, though, as there are pesticides that absorb into the leaves, and thus, would still be likely fatal to the caterpillars. If you recently collected 16, though, I would wonder where you collected them. Weren't they already on milkweed leaves? Couldn't that be a potential food source? My general advice, though, would be to not try and collect any from nature until a known safe food source has been secured.

I collected the eggs from the plants in my backyard (way after the plants were being sprayed) that I assume were affected by the pesticides. They are still in eggs so I have time to figure something out. I do have another patch from the front yard that was not affected by the spraying.

Gotcha...that makes sense. If you have that other patch, that'd be the go to for me. Hopefully you can cut the leaves the eggs are on (assuming they are still attached to the leaves) in a way that leaves little to none of the original leaf left for the cats to eat. I wish them luck and hope they hatch for you! Sounds like a rescue effort.

Thanks, Rich! The leaves I originally cut them from already dried up and I also bleached them. Shall I cut to the ground the milkweed in my backyard?... I`m so bummed... I spent hours planting them and raising from seeds....

I'm not that much of a botanist/gardener. I admit that. I made a series on how to plant milkweed, but that's primarily because people were asking me for a method, and since I was already doing one, felt comfortable showing people what I was doing as far as collecting and germinating seeds, along with planting and growing them. Beyond that, I'm not in waters that I know very well. So, what I say here is my best guess, not something I know from experience. That said, if I were in your shoes, I know I'd be likely to cut them from the lowest leaf up, as that'd be the only way I'd be sure that there was no pesticide remaining on a portion the cats are likely to eat. Milkweed plants can be pretty tenacious. They are likely to grow back without much difficulty (but no guarantees).

Would they have a high risk in Florida of coming into contact with it? Yes. But the only significant way they'd come into contact enough to say the "have" it would be through mating, when their abdomens are in contact with another's that has OE. But even at that point, the Monarch itself is adult, and has already developed, so that Monarch won't face any ill effects of OE. Now, say you have a clean female that mates with an infested male. In such a case, yes, that female will be laying eggs now that will likely have many OE spores on it. But hey, that's happening in nature anyway. There's no goal of eradicating OE (which some have, unfortunately, interpreted from these videos on OE prevention). OE is part of the natural world, and has been with the Monarch for millions of years, co-evolving with it. But the reason to prevent OE is more about not artificially causing more OE than there naturally would be. Say you have 100 Monarch eggs from nature. In nature, I don't know how many would have OE, and that certainly would be higher in Florida. Just making up a number, here, but say 80% of the eggs would have OE naturally. But, if over the course of a summer season, you raise those 100 and pretend they all make it, 100 Monarchs free of OE is a great thing. But if you didn't treat for OE, and feed milkweed leaves untreated to your Monarchs, you could have potential for all 100 adults having OE. That'd be higher than what is found in nature, and thus, would be hurting the population more than helping it in the long run. We wouldn't want our efforts in raising more Monarchs to be also a case where we raise more of a parasite for the Monarch. Make sense?

MrLundScience That was honestly an awesome explanation, made perfect sense! Thanks a bunch.

As long as you can ensure that the eggs are only in the bleach solution for one minute, it shouldn't be a problem. Keep in mind, you could submerge the egg (that is on the leaf snippet) in a smaller container. A tea cup? A small plastic bauble that gumball toys come in? And then there's less volume to "lose" an egg in. You would want to change the bleach in there after a few bleach treatments a bit more often since it's less of a volume and the bleach would react and dissipate sooner, but beyond that, it could help solve the issue you're concerned with.

The full minute is what I'd recommend to ensure that all OE spores are killed. Less time than that may result in some being killed, but not all. From doing this for over a year now, having the eggs in there a full minute, I have had zero OE, but have not had any situation where eggs have perished due to the 1 minute exposure. Now, to have full disclosure here, Michigan doesn't have much OE to begin with, and that likely helps me having zero OE, but, it still doesn't change that this procedure has produced healthy caterpillars and does not harm the egg. As for leaves being wilted, that depends upon how wilted. Crunchy? I wouldn't do it. A little curling, but still flexible? I wouldn't waste it.

Greetings Donna. Cool to see that you are already at such high numbers! And last year, I too didn't see Monarchs until way late in the season, not finding my first egg until July 25th! So, I'm further ahead than last year as well. As for your potted plants, where are they kept? If they are outdoors where nature can still get to them, cleansing them would not only be difficult, but possibly futile, as an infected Monarch has access to it and could land on it and contaminate it. This is also why I don't use potted plants. When it comes to the milkweed I grow, I never place caterpillars on it and hope for the best. That would technically be putting them back into nature, and the point of taking them off the plants I find them on in the first place is to get them out of nature. I use the plants I grow to provide me with seeds (so I can pass them on to interested students and others) and for the occasional leaves in a pinch. Otherwise, I get leaves from other nearby wild milkweed sources. In the field, they have 10% (or less) chance of making it to adulthood. If eggs/caterpillars are taken from the wild, and then placed on milkweed that is still accessible by nature, well, it's still in nature and exposed to all of the dangers. Predators can still get to them, and infections can still occur. This is why I use the system that I do where I have the cats being raised in closed containers that are no longer exposed to the environmental risks. Do you have wild milkweed in nearby areas? If you can find some, I'd recommend collecting leaves (I try to stick to only two from each plant to not "over farm" the plant and harm it) and using those as your food source if that's a possibility.

Hello there. Thank you for your timely reply. I have searched many times on how I could contact you but was unsuccessful until I saw these chat threads. First, I want to thank you for taking the time to educate others about how to rear Monarchs. Honestly, I learned everything from your videos and I have shared them countless times as I have attempted to inform others of the plight of the Monarchs. Last year I ordered 7 flats of common milkweed from Monarchwatch and dozens of employees at the hospital I work purchased them and planted, even the CEO. He was so excited about it University of Maryland Upper Chesapeake has 3 waystations on the hospital grounds. I've thrown 1500 seed bombs I hand rolled throughout Maryland, Delware, PA and New Jersey, however, I will never know if any of them ever germinated. My husband drives and I sling them through the sun roof of our SUV using a tennis ball throwing device for dogs. Yes, one could say I have caught the "bug."

I left a message somewhere else that I thought would be a good topic for you to cover in one of your videos. That is the need for them to eclose in an enclosure that has sides they could grip onto. I am not a fan of critter keepers at all!! Slits on the tops are too wide, lids snap on too tightly and the plastic sides provide no surface for them to grab ahold of. Unfortunately, I learned this the hard way when I had two fall and their wings were destroyed. I hope you don't take offense to my feedback.

Ha ha! That seed bomb idea is awesome! So cool that you were able to get so many involved! You can thank me all you want for the videos, but honestly, I want to *thank you* and people like you who take the time to watch them, and get fired up to help out this species. The videos mean nothing without dedicated people such as yourself!

Oh no. Absolutely no offense. Discussion is discussion, and it's through discussion we all learn more. I might teach some things in my videos, but through the comments section, the viewers teach me a LOT too. I mentioned in another reply to one of your comments, I don't use the critter cages (didn't really know they were called that) until after the cat is too large to fit through the spaces. Also, I don't have them eclose in there any longer, as I hang them to my yarn that I use. But, you're right, this is something that could be addressed, as certainly not many people are rehanging their Monarch chrysalides. I do it to prevent crowding of the chrysalides in my containers, and each year, I have enough numbers to still need to do that. So, because I deal with such large numbers, I don't notice/think of this type of problem. Your advice helps!

Man, great question. I really wish I had put that in there now. My "straight" bleach is your typical 8.25% Sodium Hypochlorite solution. Companies may be rounding it to 8.3%, or it may actually be 8.3%. Either case, dilute that as shown in the video, and your concentration will be effective and safe.

Ok great! I never actually read the label on the Clorox. Now I want to know the % BEFORE it became concentrated ( and they reduced the size of the jug) thanks again!

@@MrLundScience What's the buzz about 5-7% 19:1 and over 7% 32:1 ratio. It's all over butterfly forums.

Naw. Makes sense to me. And it's never harmed any milkweed plants before, for the last few millions of years they've been dropping it there, right? ;-)