He’s tough because in context of the show it makes sense to sympathize with him, but if people just saw what he did on Twitter without that context he would 100% get cancelled
Aaron Burr got canceled in real life after shooting Hamilton, and Hamilton got canceled after the Reynolds Pamphlet but many people saw him in a better light after his death. Cancel culture has been around for centuries, surprisingly.
I'd probably put Hamilton as morally gray/stupid on this topic, but not anything harsher than that. Burr is morally gray until he kills someone, and the shenanigans he got up to after the murder go into possible prison territory.
Honestly, for me Gaston is prison tier. Yes, there are Gastons all around us, but that doesn't mean that what he does is JUST morally grey. He sexually harasses women and part of the reason he tried to kill the Beast is because he was jealous of him and wanted Belle for himself, not just because he thought he was a monster, which makes him evil.
This was a really fun idea haha I struggle with Evan Hansen myself. He's definitely problematic. But I think when we consider his severe social anxiety and the fact that he's supposed to be a teenager (which can be easy to forget when played by someone much older), we can sorta understand why he is the way he is. People also tend to forget that Evan was suicidal himself, so it seems like he was really holding onto that family as a last hope in a way. Either way what he did was wrong and I think he is remorseful (considering words fail) so I'd agree with morally gray. I think he learned his lesson.
i was literally saying smthn similar to this, like to me, during the show, he tries to reason with connors parents, but like with them being upset abt the suicide, his letter, evan not wanting them to be upset if he says the wrong thing, etc. it became so overwhelming for him during the show he couldnt say it, thats what i saw anyways
@@jaenarmat Exactly! I always think back to that part when listening to people talk about him because Evan tries to tell the truth at first but Connor's mom's reaction pushes him to first step into the lie. He was in the wrong as well, but it wasn't all his fault imo.
ngl, the focus on evan's social anxiety in the show and esp in like the promo, reviews and stuff that I saw at the time always annoyed me a little, as someone who has social anxiety that was quite severe in high school. like everyone was like "wow look at this bway show with a main character who has such an accurate portrayal of social anxiety" but like all he does is lie and cry, and fidget and hunch. ofc it's cool that so many people could relate to his character and found the show helpful but it kinda rubs me the wrong way lol
@@austinlam8145 I get that, and I have social anxiety too. I think the important thing to remember is that this is just showing one possible experience. In reality, it's different for everyone and I think everyone watching the show should keep that in mind too. I'd never do half the things evan did that's for sure.
The problem is the writing of the show. We don't know what Evan's diagnosis is. I have heard ASD, OCD, social anxiety, etc. He then gets with a girl, stops taking his meds and gets better?! I hope the neurodiversity community trash the movie when It comes out.
I think a lot of folks get carried away in the “you will be found” of dear Evan Hansen add forget that the whole point is that Evan is a sympathetic anti hero. What he does is supposed to be perceived as morally wrong and what he does to the Murphy’s is undeniably horrible, but he is sympathetic due to his motivations and social anxiety.
Yeah, rather than just tell the Murphys, "No, you're wrong, we weren't friends," he decided give the Murphys the emotional relief that they needed to cope with Connor's death. Even if it was fake.
It would be pretty hard picking the most popular song of a musical. I am thinking about it right now and having difficulty picking the songs. For example, Dear Evan Hansen has You Will Be Found, Waving Through A Window, and Sincerely Me which are all equally popular imo. Another hard one is Hamilton. There's Alexander Hamilton, My Shot, and Satisfied which are all equally popular and loved i think. Some musicals have obvious ones though like Defying Gravity for Wicked or Wait For Me for Hadestown
Alright I know this is a video about musicals, but I've seen no one else talk about how Ryan is a diabetic! I had no clue and I've seen him in so many roles over the years. As a type one diabetic myself (10 years in Oct.) It just super amazing realizing some actors/actresses/well-known people are at least somewhat similar to me and have done/worked in such amazing pieces of media
For gaston you guys forgot that he had Maurice put into a mental place for insisting there was a beast and the second he finds out the beast was real and belle cares for him, he goes to kill the beast without releasing Maurice even though its proved he was right and not crazy. Not to mention he also throws belle into the metal place too when he tries to deny them. idk if its like that in the broadway show but thats how it is in the movie.
In the theater show Maurice doesn't quite get locked up yet. They'[re about to do it when Belle shows the mirror, then the town hauls off to go kill the beast and don't bother to do anything about Maurice.
It would be really interesting to see tier lists for casts of the whole shows. For example DEH, going through each (principal) character. If this became a series I’d like to see where the characters for like Into the Woods (I have opinions about the bakers wife), Hamilton, Carrie, Heathers, etc. fall. Categories could include misunderstood (portrayed villain that is truly an ok guy, vice versa), true villain, etc. Love your content. Officially huge fan of you both ❤️
@@notkatiecollins1037 first of all. Congratulations on landing that role. It’s my opinion that the Bakers Wife will never be content. She’s always looking for something(or someone) else to make her life feel fulfilled. Going so far as to sleep with someone else (doesn’t matter if he’s a prince or a hobo honestly) to try to feel fulfilled. THEN SHE BLAMES THE WOODS! Idk. I’m glad she died because continuing down that path she would have been a terrible mother, she was already a terrible wife. Empty people tend to be bad people because they keep searching for that thing that will fulfill them/keep their attention/etc. and they hardly get held accountable for their actions because “they were searching for themselves”.
@@JamminJesse1996 Thank you so much!! :) I have to say I agree. It's so interesting how you said that character's hardly get held accountable because they were 'searching for themselves'. Damn, the more I think about it, the more flawed characters are coming to mind. In Moments In The Woods, however, I do think she has a bit of a realisation. Throughout the whole show she's been constantly wanting more, unhappy with her own life and believing that the grass is greener on the other side. Once she gets with the Prince, I think she realises that it's not (and the would-be's are never as great as you'd expect them to be). She comes to appreciate that the 'ors' have more value than the 'ands'. I'd be interested in see how that character development directed her life forwards if she didn't die. We can always wonder if she would be a better mother/wife. Although I have to be honest, she hardly deserves it.
@@notkatiecollins1037 I think playing her to be sympathetic is absolutely the move. Otherwise you have an entire crowd of my mindset clapping when that tree falls lol. (I’m an actor myself and play a lot of antagonists and it hurts when people clap when you die. Just sayin) Break all the legs in your production (when I auditioned for ITW, I wasn’t cast at all)!
@@JamminJesse1996 Yeah, she's got to be likable!! Gotta make them feel the feels when I die! (Would hurt for everyone to clap HAHA - poor you. I guess it means you were playing the antagonist well!). I'm sure that casting team made a horrible mistake! Thank you so much :)
Defense of Evan: He asked Jared what to do after the family asked him to come to dinner to discuss Conner, Jared said just nod your head. So he agreed with everything they said. Although it may not have been the best descition he was nervous and trusted Jared. The entire the he felt guilty and I don’t think he only lied to get closer to Zoey that just happened to be a bonus. He didn’t try to get Zoey back after she broke up with him and he was respectful and nice. He never meant to do anything wrong he just got caught in a spiral. He just got nervous and said yes without thinking how big it would get. He also didn’t ask the Murphy’s to not tell the internet but they did because they still love Evan because he is a GOOD person. I rest my case. Hate him if you want but I think he’s great and I want to be his friend.
He's a nice person, but I do believe he's a bit selfish. Like dude, you're mom really works her a** out so you can have a house, great education, food, opportunities. I get that he's upset, but like he needs to understand her. But he did better so I forgive him. The OTHER chaotic things he did. I mean, even if he is nervous and said yes in the moment, he should've fix the problem right away. But it's difficult, and, I still like him. I don't excuse him, though. But understand it.
@@gabrielleduplessis7388 from memory in the musical at first in the princiapls office evan tries to tell the family that connor didn't write the letter but the family is already too carried away. Don't quote me on it tho 😂
@@joanbernsten3960 that is why I questioned if he was that problematic because he did tell the truth but no one believed him. Not justifying him maintaining the lie though.
Okay, my thoughts: Gaston and Galinda (although people like that live among us) should be in bad, but not evil, I think that simply because they have realistic bad traits and actions doesn't make them any better. I think Evan is a little more complicated than you gave him credit for (and this is coming from someone who isn't a huge fan of the show partially because of the questionable morality). My interpretation of the plot is that the Murphys thought Evan and Conner were friends and when he tried to tell them otherwise they kept on insisting that it was true and that Evan was just confused until he didn't know what to tell them and he caved. At the dinner, Evan realized how much his fake stories about Conner meant to them and couldn't bear to come clean. After that, his motivation gets more and more selfish (in the second act). And that's why I think it was right to put him in morally grey, he was a confused and lonely kid who had good intentions, even if his actions were straight up terrible.
Yeah, I always credit the fact that Evan DID try to tell the Murphys that he and Connor weren't friends, but they were so desperate for something good about Connor to hold onto, that they kept insisting that they WERE friends, like you said. And Evan just didn't know how to tell them that they were wrong. And for a teenager who had always been ignored and seen as weird, being recognized in the hallways by people who normally didn't even acknowledge his existence felt good for once. Even though he did embrace his popularity too much, he tried to commit suicide because he felt that nobody cared about him.
I’m glad someone brought up the point he did try to come clean before anything could even happen. He was put in a difficult situation that he just happened to benefit from. I mean, if it were me, I couldn’t imagine looking in the eyes of a grieving mother, knowing I’m essentially her life line, and telling her, “no, I don’t know your son.” And I think he mentions that. At least in the movie, I haven’t seen the stage version. As a side note, I also think this gets overlooked because Ben Platt was an adult in the movie. 🤷🏼♀️
real tea right here: if Evan wasn’t written as a teen with crippling social anxiety and an outcast, he would have NEVER gotten away with what he got away with. And if you really think about it, there’s no real protagonist in DEH. No one gets what they want/ and no one wins.
I don’t fault Evan as much as I fault the writers for coming up with an icky story. Flat out, it’s just unpleasant to watch him manipulate a GRIEVING family and we’re supposed to be like “aww empathize with his side” No. I don’t care to when he’s actively creating more trauma for this family. And the fact the PR has really tried to turn this into a moving tale. Ew
@@jenniferr8394 a lot of people like controversial stories that aren't black and white. I actually think it's a good thing to be able to exercise empathy for people who do bad things (this isn't the same thing as excusing their actions)
The thing about Anna is that when she realizes she is part of the problem, she does everything in her power to fix it, which I feel like takes her off the list completely. The naiveté that she has in the beginning is not her fault, it is the fault of her parents and I would say partially from Elsa, although Elsa deals with the same if not worse traumatic parenting decisions of the king and queen. She really couldn't help but be the way she was, especially considering the fact that Elsa would be closing the castle again after the coronation. However, you can tell that she is genuinely good at her core because she takes responsibility, acknowledges that she caused the altercation with her sister, and then seeks her out to help mend their relationship and the kingdom. I would say that pushes her out of morally gray in my personal opinion, but I also understand where the morally gray placing comes from
Same and also about that time in an old video of questions when Ryan asked what he would be if he wasn't an actor and Sam said politician but the answer was actually English teacher
On buzzfeed there's a quiz that tells you which hogwarts house you DON'T belong to. I did it and got Gryffindor. Would be cool to see if you could get that result as well.
Javert definitely belongs in the morally gray tier. He is one of the 'miserable' because he was born in prison, from the 'gutter' and had to fight to prove himself as a good police officer, he has so much moral conflict within the film fighting with ideas of right and wrong to fit into this society and things that he thought were certain no longer are, and ends in his suicide because he can't cope with the emotional conflict. I have a lot of feelings about javert, but he was also just doing what he thought was right in the circumstances, and if an escaped convict showed up years later, of course you'd try hunt him down to prove you're good at your job instead of letting him get away.
I agree. Sam and Ryan also said that Javert spent all this time hunting down Valjean, when we don’t really know if that’s true because of how much time the show covers. As viewers of Les Mis I think we’re supposed to see that Javert is wrong but have sympathy for him because he’s well meaning.
yeah, i agree. javert's isn't seeking justice as much as he is obsessed with it. i would put him in moraly grey because his choices force him to live by rules that are fundamentally bad but he himself is not bad. Edit: javert's actions would get him a lawsuit tho.
@@seacucumber679 Morally gray isn't a bad one. Like Javert is legit convinced that Valjean is evil (whether or not he should be is another story) and he's operating off that premise.
Ahhh people so misunderstand Evan that it’s painful. Not saying that what he did was right but when people paint it as all bad without taking into account the individual behind the action and all the other shit that is going on with these characters, it’s soooo painful. PS people like Evan because they feel seen and can relate to his feelings etc
Excuse me, Spoilers, the wizard belongs in orison for raping Elphaba’s mother. That warrants prison. He also ostricized everyine in oz creating his army that killed people for just being affiliated with Elphaba. Prison.
@@erosetol the green potion he gave her as he drugged her snd the fact he said (i believe he said) is elphaba’s father. They implied it on stage. It was also a big plot point in the book which is why they added it to the play.
I think that Evan is very difficult to place on the list. I think he did a bad thing but if I was in his situation I would have absolutely know idea what to tell the Murphys I dont think many people would have the heart to tell them the truth immediately
For Evan I find it really hard to be upset with him, even though what he did was undeniably wrong. He has social anxiety, tried to commit suicide, is an outcast, his father left him when he was a kid- that is a lot to deal with. It doesn't condone what he did at all, but when you take it into account as well as the fact that he's a teenager, it's hard to be that upset with him. And he is remorseful for what he did and tries to make it better, which is important. That's just my opinion.
I think Veronica from Heathers would be worth considering for this list. A lot of her decisions are pretty problematic, I'd be excited to see where she is placed.
Definitely morally grey. She's problematic yes but most of her bad decisions revolve around Martha and the way Veronica treats her, since Veronica's Chandler-esque interaction with Martha is what mainly causes Martha to give up on life and end it all. The only other bad decision of Veronica imo is choosing to stay with JD and give him a second chance even after he tricked her and almost made her kill someone (since in the musical Veronica never actually killed Kurt but if she had better aim she definitely could've unknowingly murdered him) especially because she knows he is a murderer and is aware he wants to kill more people. After the "accidental" murder of Chandler (I say accidental bc JD knew she grabbed the wrong mug but didn't stop her) Veronica didn't know JD was actually a murderer yet, seeing as she was the one holding the mug and not him. Veronica believes there's good in everyone, she says so herself in the beginning of the musical so it's no wonder that even after JD has murdered three people and is preparing to blow up a school that she still tries to get him to join her. Ofc it's very optimistic on her part, trying to see the good in a person who is manipulative, abusive, psychopathic, and a MURDERER (almost mass murderer even). But even if she does make horrible decisions that hurt people I do believe she redeems herself by the end by being completely ready to sacrifice herself for the sake of her school since she believed JD was dead. And even though JD sacrifices himself instead her making up with Martha is taking the red scrunchie from Duke really shows how devoted she is to create a "society" where different social types CAN get along and come together as a functional community. This is so long omg I'm sorry lmao I just really love Veronica and I wanted to give my personal opinion (I know you weren't asking for it tho 🥲) anyways have a nice day/night and thank you for taking the time to read this well thought out essay I typed out at 2 am 🤭🤭
Also not necessarily what he did, but kinda how his brain works? Hahahah, when Angelica came back after hearing about the affair and he assumed she was going to stay by his side like GIRL YOU OK! He just completely disregards Eliza CONSTANTLY throughout the show and she’s a queen and SHE always stays by his side aware of her self-worth because love I guess kfjdkdkdk. Idk, I love hamilton, but I hate Alex
@@luizasabbaga592 I'd say it's both,i do hate him for what he did,i wanna smack him across the room,even if i want to redeem him nobody can excuse any of his actions that bit him in the a$$. Like i said,a chance that he can be redeemed,or redeem himself is a possibility.
wait but wasn’t his wife pretty much never there anymore and they weren’t really happy together anymore right? and then obviously jenna wanted out of her relationship so i think they both just needed to get out of their relationships right?? i mean idk tho
Gaston put Maurice in a mental institution by convincing everyone he was mad when he knew full well the beast was real… so he could get at his daughter. I don’t believe he felt like he was in the right there 😂 it’s just horrid!
There is a part in one of the Frozen shorts they made between the release of Frozen and Frozen 2 where Hans is shown warming and cleaning so you were right Ryan!
i just have to say that the broadway “revival” of waitress should be extended, and they put in Ryan and Jessica Vosk as Pomater and Jenna pretty please
Re: Dr. Pommidor. Cheating on his wife is bad. Having sex with his patient is, IRL, lawsuit (and also grounds to lose his medical license but that's not a category.) I strongly disagree on Gaston. He should be in "bad" at least because he tries to get Maurice involuntarily committed to an insane asylum and tries to force Belle to marry him.
Okay but with the Dr. Pomatter one...isn't there something about how Doctors can't have relations with their patients? Like yeah the cheating would get him canceled but i think that fact that it was a patient and a doctor would at least open the conversations for some kind of legal action
I would've put him in lawsuit, I think. Doctors can't have romantic relationships with their patients, which they did touch on, very briefly, in Bad Idea.
if it's about being problematic then why isn't every character ever on the list because NEWSFLASH we are all problematic! [sorry, if there's a term i loathe it's that]
I feel like Anna shouldn’t be on this list at all tbh 😭 she’s not problematic in the slightest bit and was manipulated and betrayed by Hans because of her good heart, not to mention she lived a whole childhood having the wrong misconceptions about what love truly is and unfortunately her naïveté was taken advantage of. All the blame should be on Hans
I agree, Anna is 18 in the movie and for all she knew she did meet the perfect man because that's what he displayed himself as. All if not most of these characters on the list, intentionally did theses things while Anna was a victim.
I think the thing with evan that a lot of people dont See or dont get is that in the beginning when he first meets connor's parents he actually wants to tell them the thruth and tries to do so but they arent really listening (probably because they just lost their son) and so evan just starts to go with it also because he sees that Connor having a friend really helps them cope with his death. He didnt tell them he Was friends with Connor because he wanted to be with his sister. That would be fucked up tho
Personally, I think the problem with Anna is the fact that she was also cut off from civilisation so she didn’t know how to act with people, especially in terms of love
Exactly! There’s literally a deleted song called “True Love” where her expectations on what love should be aren’t what they seem and unfortunately learned the hard way.
Ok I LOVE waitress and dr. Pomatter, but I think he is in lawsuit category because he is a doctor in a relationship with his patient which is illegal. Making their relationship highly unethical and would be considered malpractice. So, in real-world, would he be cancelled, yes, however there would probably be a lawsuit and he could potentially lose his license.
Anyone else notice the sun tan/burn line ngl I noticed because I’m hella jealous, moving to America in 2022 so maybe I’ll get some for once haha🏴
Honestly, this was accurate excluding the “bad but not evil category”. Imagine the story of mama rose popping up on Twitter. She’d for sure get cancelled. Same for Burr. He legit got canceled in the show too. I think morally they belong in “bad but not evil” but they’re such good “canceled” material 😂
First - great video, well done, but I have Opinions on the Waitress doctor dude. Like, he is a doctor who had sex with a patient MULTIPLE TIMES at appointments. I mean, allow me to introduce Dr. Mal Practice, this guy is terrible. I'm pretty sure you can get a medical license revoked for pulling that sh*t. At least lawsuit for that dude, just because Jenna doesn't have the money to sue doesn't mean that he shouldn't get sued.
I'm pretty it's illegal -- at least in the UK the GMC can take you off the register and revoke your licence to practice. Don't know about stateside though.
Hi Dads, Loved today's video! But you should maybe update your 'about' information. It still says that Sam works at Hi5 Studios. That's all, see you on twitch tonight!
Fun Fact: the town that was Aaron Burr’s base of operations, and Harman Blennerhassett (his main benefactor/ co conspirator) is my hometown so I’ve known about Burr’s plot to take over the US for so long. The Blennerhassett family was the richest family along the Ohio river at the time and their island, yes they owned an entire island, is now a state park and you can tour it and even see a replica of what their mansion looked like. On one of the walking paths there’s even a sign that shows the famous people that have visited and Burr and his daughter are on the sign!
ok, i have an issue with anna being on this list. she suffered countless traumas when growing up. her parents died, her sister just abandoned and rejected her, she spent her whole youth locked up in a castle, without any connection to the outside world. she longed for some kind of company. i think she was a victim of circumstance. if things were handled differently by her parents and elsa, she wouldn't be so desperate for any human connection she could get... hans was the first person who actually paid attention to her. she was so lonely. she never had anyone to teach her anything, of course she didn't know better! it's like blaming someone with untreated and unresolved mental health issues for doing things the 'wrong' way.
Gaston should be a couple tiers higher not for the attempted murder, but for trying to blackmail belle into marrying him. that's like... basically attempted rape
Javert is one of my favorite characters of all time. I don’t disagree with your placement but he deserves more discussion. He truly thinks up until the end that he is doing the right thing. I tend to put him in the same category as Severus Snape. Good character, but not a good person. I love characters who have depth to them if you actually take the time to peel back the layers of the onion. Also “Stars” is one of my all time favorite songs. Not just Broadway songs… all songs.
I'd say that Gaston is a sympathetic antagonist. He's not a good person, but I think he was shaped by those around him who praised him constantly and didn't see that he was going down a dark path. This, coupled with his extreme narcissism and insecurity, led to his death. What an unbelievably tragic figure.
6:00 I see a phantom question and I must step in It's generally accepted that Christine is 20 or at least in her early 20s In the movie, Emmy Rossum was 16 (or 18, I've seen it both ways and I haven't cared enough to check which is actually correct but it's roughly the same either way) when filming, so her Christine's age is generally brought down to her own to explain why she looks so young. Both men playing the love interests were in their 30s at the time so... Uh... Yeah. Raoul is about the same age as Christine, although I think in the movie he's more generally considered to be around 20 because, yk, the actor's 30 and all. The phantom could be placed anywhere from his 20s (although it's usually older than that) to his 60s with most people saying somewhere from 30s-60s from what I've seen. His age is never specified, some versions go so far as to say he doesn't know his age because he doesn't care (I mean, his name- yes, he has a name, it's Erik- usually wasn't even given to him by his mother, but by the daroga or somehow by accident in ways that aren't generally explained. His relationship with Christine is definitely creepy especially considering ages but it's creepy even without them tho lol Also, your Hamilton thing... Thank you! Finally someone who agrees that the character of Hamilton isn't a great dude! The thing that finally made me realize it after 2 years of listening to the musical was watching a slime tutorial and seeing the end of act 1. Like... Shaking your wife and sister in law (who you're close to) off your arms? In the blocking? And you expect us to support you? Idk why that's what it was but that's what did it for me and I can't look at that character in the same way again...
Phantom is generally considered 40-50s story- wise but casting is from 30-50 I think (although they've definitely had younger guys). This is for the stage show though as in the book they're more explicit (IIRC they straight up say he's 50 and there are many differences between the stage show and book anyway) and I'm pretty sure the movie goes by actor age. In the movie the phantom has a different backstory from musical phantom anyway so I guess the age difference reflects that. It just annoys me that they aged Christine down for no apparent reason since it almost infantilises the character (by that I mean it gives people more of a justification to say that the character is just a helpless idiot which I think is bad characterisation and it shouldn't be like that) and makes the relationship even more creepy with the whole 'stalking her since she was a child' thing but also tries to romanticise it more than the stage show.
@@brxzbze they don't give Erik an age in the book as far as I remember, but some version I saw had it implied or stated or something that it was somewhere from 40s-60s or something like that? Idk, but he's definitely 40 or older (sometimes people make him 20 and it's like... No) The only real reason for aging Christine down is because Emmy rossum's playing her, but yeah that's a bad way of looking at it. I wouldn't say she's helpless (I mean, I'd like to see them try to deal with being in a situation like that) or an idiot (her father died. This allowed her to cope without having to actually cope) But definitely more creepy that way lol
@@juliasings6131 Oh, I _definitely_ don't think she's a helpless idiot. I just think a lot of people think that is her character and the aging down of the character and Emmy's portrayal doesn't really help things. I think Christine's character somewhat depends on the actress playing her being more active and I don't think Emmy was directed well enough to bring out her conflict and the interesting aspects of the character. It also doesn't help that in the movie some bits where Christine does stand up for herself were cut or directed so that they aren't as impactful. I distinctly recall the Phantom being around 50 in the book but I could be wrong -- I'll need to check that.
@@brxzbze oh, no, ik you don't think that's her, I was just saying how ridiculous that pov is But yeah it probably didn't help at all. Her Christine was way too passive, and the height of her emotion was probably the final lair with her disappointment in the phantom I really don't like how they rearranged the entirety of act 2 for it (specifically in relation to my interpretation of Christine's character) but that's a story for another time and probably really didn't help her either.
2 years later, I'm interested in adding onto my discussion here Because yes, the age is important. But regardless of the age, I think it's also important to look at the fact that she's still a grieving person with an underdeveloped brain. That's been the main thing driving my characterization of Christine as I've worked it out over the many years that I've been a fan. In the 2004 movie, yes, I believe it's implied that the phantom came to her as a literal child, I think 7 years old, and that's *CREEPY*. But even other versions, like the stage show itself, are weird. I'll go off the stage show for this one. Going off alternate lyrics for wishing you were somehow here again, we know that Christine's father has been gone for three years ("three long years I've knelt in silence, held your memory near me. Three long years of murmured sorrows, willing you to hear me"). We can infer it's probably the same even without those lyrics because Carlotta says three years ago is when the strange occurrences started ("for the past three years, these things do happen!") Going off the general fandom estimate of 20 years old, she was 17. A literal child. And even if she is a little older than that, she was still definitely under 24-25 when this all started, so her brain was not developed yet. She may have faced the loss of her mother at one point, although we really have no information about that. Her father is the only one ever mentioned, so it's likely she died in childbirth or when Christine was very very young. She may not remember her mom at all. Even if she does, her father was there with her to help her through that. In the book, she did have a mother figure in madame valerius, but she was still very close with her father before he died, and in the musical, she doesn't even really have that. So a 17 year old, dealing with the loss of a parent when she's likely never had to deal with loss like that, and with basically no one to turn to. She becomes a ballerina (or a chorus member, going by the book). Music is obviously still a very large part of her life, and at some point, this man, the phantom, hears her sing and decides to train her. And also gains an obsession with her. We all know that part, ofc So, here's why it's so problematic. And I don't even think this was malicious on the phantom's part, I think it was obviously manipulative but I think it was honestly done from a good place, at least in part. The angel of music was created So, I'm gonna back up right here and go into my headcanon for the angel of music and little lotte and how a lot of these things seem to tie together in my mind. I'll let you know when the headcanon turns back into character analysis. I realized recently the connection between names. Carlotta is the Italian version of the English name Charlotte. Lotte is short for Charlotte. The original story of little lotte, in my opinion, could have come from Carlotta herself. Carlotta is done real dirty in the movie, but the whole point of her is that she's stuck up, but she's a legitimately really good singer. Christine grew up singing, and it's not a stretch to imagine that she may have idolized Carlotta a bit. Ofc, Carlotta wouldn't have been visited by an angel, but there could've been some sort of folk tale going around about how she sings so beautifully. Going to the Paris opera house and singing with her was likely a dream come true. I think that could be a driving force for a few of the actions Christine takes and makes the mazm version of Carlotta way cooler imo. But regardless, that idea adds some context for the next thing I'm gonna talk about, which has to do with how the angel of music was born in the first place. Ok, headcanon over. Back to proper character analysis (sort of, cause this is partly speculation that could go a few different ways, but it will help me get back to character analysis). So, there could have been a few ways that the phantom could've come across the angel of music as an option. He could've taken a guess, which would be made more likely if the idea of little lotte being Carlotta is taken as true because it could be easy to assume that a young ballerina who loves to sing would know a story like that. Christine could have been calling for an angel to come help her, praying like we see in the movie, something like that, and the phantom takes it upon himself to be that angel. He could've just started talking to her and she's like "are you an angel??" And he's like "uh... yeah sure" like he does in mazm (which, btw, is an awesome phone game that you should all check out if you're interested in phantom). Regardless (back to proper analysis), this persona of the angel of music is borne, and Christine believes it to have been sent by her father. That's key. She was alone, grieving the most important person in her life, her father, her best friend, her teacher, and suddenly... he's not there, but he sent someone to watch over her. She isn't alone. She doesn't have to grieve because her father is still there with her. That is what I firmly believe she thinks. There's no more need to grieve. So she doesn't try. She lets these feelings inside build up and fester inside of her without realizing she's doing it because she's not emotionally mature enough to recognize it's not healthy. We can see that in the mirror scene. "Father said, when I'm in heaven, child, I will send you the angel of music. Well, father is dead, Raoul, and I have been visited by the angel of music!" The fact of the angel being there overshadows her father's death. It's not important because he's still watching over her. And she likes that. She doesn't want to deal with these very complex and painful feelings. It's so much easier to hide. I think that's what the phantom does. He enables her to shut down her emotions in a way that's really unhealthy and really damaging to her emotionally. Again, I don't even think that was the intention he had, but it's absolutely a byproduct of it. I went through and did a full analysis of the motifs in phantom, and there were only a couple that only appeared exactly once in the entire show, and one of those was wishing you were somehow here again. Because that song is her grieving, and until she hits that point, she wasn't. Not really. She was pushing the feelings down as long as she could. But the angel is a crutch, and that's why she had such trouble letting him go. She realizes that and turns to her father for help. To help her say goodbye. Something she hadn't let herself do. To say goodbye to the angel, she needs to say goodbye to her father, and vice versa. They're a package deal. But these are feelings of grief that at this point have been festering in her for the past three years, and her brain is still not fully developed. So when she lets herself grieve, she's not ready. It overtakes her. I believe that's why she's so vulnerable when the phantom reaches out to her again as the angel. She mentions multiple times in wandering child that she wants to fight him. At the beginning, there's "angel or father? Friend or phantom?" Which shows her confusion about who is who, but also shows that she knows the angel is bad. But she's confused about who it is, she doesn't know who's good or bad anymore, and she almost doesn't care. She wants her crutch back. She almost goes to him before Raoul stops her Through that view of Christine, I have had a lot of clarity about her. If I ever played her, that is what I'd be using. The basic ideas of loneliness and the crutch for her grief. It's obviously not the only view of her to be had, but it is the one I connect most to and therefore the one I base my views on. But where the phantom is concerned, it makes it really clear how he damaged her. Minor or not, it's creepy. But also, minor or not, she is not a fully developed person yet. And she's got some deeply set grief that she needs to sort through that the phantom, knowingly or unknowingly, doesn't let her work through. He actively holds back her development. In terms of this tier list, that doesn't change much of anything because he's a literal murderer and he's going to prison either way. But in terms of him and if his relationship with her is bad, obviously yes it is for a lot of reasons, but even sometimes illegal age gap aside, he is actively stunting her growth as a person. And that's not even to mention how he's not letting her explore her romantic options, which is another kind of growth, but I don't think I need to touch on that. Not even looking at the literal illegal things he did, it is not remotely a stable relationship. He didn't help her, he prevented her from dealing with proper emotions as a developing human. That's not good I don't have a good way to end this comment but I hope people enjoyed if they decided to actually read this whole thing haha
This is the first video I’ve ever seen of you guys, it was recommended to me by the algorithm and I’m already rooting for u, I just loved your energy, humor, references, and especially, the way you bounce off off each other. I truly hope you guys get really far :))
i zoomed in on ryan’s sunglasses because i was bored and i realised that sam and ryan aren’t talking to me like we’re besties they’re talking to a camera and now i’m sad
Phantom is EXTREMELY problematic like this man pretended to be an angel sent by Christines father for YEARS, KILLED TWO MEN, and then had the AUDACITY to make me cry when he cries
To be fair he wasn't stalking her for _that_ long -- pretty sure it's been a year at most. They do say 'new tutor'. Unless you're talking about the movie, where for some reason they retconned his backstory and made it so he was stalking Christine since she was a child for some reason. Not to excuse him at all -- his behaviour is definitely one of if not the most problematic out of the major Broadway leads, although I still like him as a character.
Definitely agree overall about Evan, but to me it seemed like at first he didn’t tell the truth not because he wanted to gain anything from it, but because he couldn’t speak up. This is all just my interpretation, but it feels like his core motivation is trying to keep things in control because of his anxiety, at least until Disappear. I think that’s when he starts to actually seek out more than just keeping the lie under control. Idk lol.
Okay but like technically Gaston was full on constantly harassing Belle and he also technically kidnapped her cause he locked her in that cage against her will…. sooo SUE THAT MF ASS
Ok, just in terms of Hamilton, he would get cancelled but in terms of redeemeding qualities, his politics was actually pretty above board. Pre Say no to this, you can't actually hold anything against him. But ma boi had one terrible decision that lead to a ton of other bad decisions. So, obvs he gets cancelled for adultery, but other than that, he does have redeemeding qualities and taking Hamilton as a person before his crimes, his person has few faults other than annoying, and attacks on his character based on his decisions is just a logical fallacy. I loved your video. Sorry for the rant. I'm just not especially fond of someone's personality being attacked due to decisions they made.
Evan should be in lawsuit. Literally that family should have destroyed him. Not only did he take advantage of a suicide, but that's after he himself attempted suicide. If he can't have empathy after that then what the fuck!?
Gaston is a walking sexual harassment lawsuit waiting to happen..like, yeah Gaston’s are around us all the time. I don’t really think that makes it less bad…
I don’t think Evan used it as an opportunity for his sister but he has severe social anxiety and issues with social cues and circumstances and didn’t want to have to see the Murphy’s distraught since they were such kind people
teeeeechnically aaron should go to prison, if i remember correctly dueling was illegal but it was still a part of their “culture” so the common people didnt really care 🤔
Javert didn’t necessarily follow Valjean around and ignore his other duties; he just happens to run into Valjean and tries to arrest him whenever he sees him, which is what a police officer’s job is. In my opinion, he should be in the “bad, but not evil” tier.
Didn’t Gaston try to have Belle’s father eaten by wolves when he tied him in the woods. Or is that just the movie version? Attempted murder should bump him up a tad.
