No! You WILL watch the entire 3 hours. You WILL zone out and miss the discussion of your army. You WILL have to jump around until you find said discussion. Please like and subscribe.
I took great joy when Jack said, when placing the Tyranids "They're a good army. Not great, in the same way that Eldar, Thousand Sons and Dark Angels are Great". Man just instinctively slotted Eldar into top of S in his brain and didn't notice. Nor did John.
I'm so glad you added the qualifying statement that this tier list is considering the army in the hands of a high level player. So many tier lists, not just in 40k, don't make the distinction, and it's so important.
As the proud owner of a ton of White Scars I hate that I have one unique model who’s not even mounted in any way who basically does nothing for me. I hate space wolves run my detachment better than me or even have access to my detachment. I need help here.
Drukhari: highest win rate in current meta. Highest over-rep. Second most event wins. Third most 4-0 event starts based on population. Jack Harpster: drukhari aren't good because I haven't faced a good version of them Solid logic
Drukhari are a bully faction. Always have been, always will be. They are straight up god tier if against an opponent that is NOT the 1% of players, straight up horrible if against the 1% of players; that's how AoW is basing their ranking placements, idk why the comments and chat seem to be upset with that. It's also important to note that WTC made a stance on the sequence on how Pain Tokens generate and are used from PowerFromPain, which is a big nerf in comparison to how other tournaments (both local and grand) across the whole world were allowing the sequence to work because GW didnt have an official stance on their bad writing. Since the WTC, every place i know of is now enforcing that WTC stance--so id be shocked if you didn't see a decrease in overall drukhari win percentages over the next couple of months
I mean even after AoW explained at the start why they are not going off of win rates due to how pointless that would be, people are still directly or indirectly referencing the win rates in their comments. It is what it is man, the channel is not for everyone. This channel is really useful for the people that plays hyper competitively, and personally, I find the content to be entertaining even as a casual player because it is fun to see what the top of the game looks like and how it differs from my game experience. A lot of people don't understand the PoV of the channel is operating from, that's all ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I identify as someone who focused on one army, (not several) got them built and painted (not mostly sitting in storage boxes, or primed at best), then practiced extensively and and became an elite player who's Golden Ticket is inevitable (instead of having a partially read rulebook and zero games), so I find it both useful and entertaining, too.
Nick should interview Derek Apsche for the podcast. The community wants to hear the strategic thinking behind his Chaos Cult wins two Majors in a row, LSO and NOVA.
Things people get mad about in AoW tierlist videos: 1. They ranked my army to high, I'm scared of getting nerfed. 2. They didn't rank the army that smashed me high enough, I'm scared they won't get nerfed.
CSM win events quite often, despite the low win rate. Derek is not the only good CSM players, but it definitely requires a good player to drive the army. It's only after reading the AC DC datasheets, that you realise having 3 painted full units is also required.
Enjoy your content, if not doing time stamps, how about doing a chapter header at the bottom, so if you want to run through to hear your thoughts on an army, it would be easier.
Death Guard just have quite a lot of bad matchups, and most of those checks are currently extremely prevalent. Pure Death Guard are also extremely slow and genuinely struggle with anti-tank while not having enough rerolls to compensate. So yeah, they play honest Warhammer well, but there's a lot that they just don't do well.
@glubgawd7393 they literally said at the beginning of this video that they are ranking these factions in the hands of the top players. And Q regularly beats all these other top players with the same DG list every time.
Derek’s last name is pronounced apeshit, you can ask him and he’ll tell you the same. He also won lonestar open and I believe got 2nd at ACO with chaos cult.
LoV are one of only 2 armies without a single major tournie win yet since Pariah Nexus dropped, good players can do okay with them. Might be some of the top tricky armies throwing the "play fair 40k" boys out the podium.
@@williambryant6175 just rechecked the stats, just Votann as of now (not counting agents). The issue is, we have rock solid units and middle win rates, so there will be no skysplinter for us, and the roadmap is bleak right now. Don't even mind just gaining units drip fed, no different from custodes or grey knights on terms of variety, but different play styles and detachments would be a breath of fresh air.
Is he wrong though with current points army is just Marines that punch hard because we lost every cool loadout and gained 380 point flying t4 custodes.
@@leodiaz1337 he said that precodex blood angels weren’t *that good* when they were debatable best army in game and that he would’ve ranked them lower lol
I think the major problem with Space Marines is not the book itself, but rather the way GW is handling army design in 10th. At the moment, most of your rules are found in your detachments or your datasheets, and this means that if those aren’t good, you don’t have anything to fall back on (ironically enough, Dark Angels manage to avoid this problem due to them being Space Marines). To use an example from last edition, Alpha Legion was not the most competitive set of rules in the CSM codex, but they still had access to some of the most powerful things like Black Rune of Damnation. While I don’t think adding more army-wide rules will solve the problem of “Gladius with extra steps”, I do think it will bring the lower end up higher than it currently is. That being said, love the content as always!
Meltdowns in the comments over the rankings which have a very explicit disclaimer that these are faction ceiling rankings according to them, not faction rankings on general merit alone. They literally say it at the start of the video. If you cannot reach that skill ceiling, that’s unfortunate but doesn’t make Jack or John wrong here.
Codex space marines should be C tier, most of the datasheets are useless. Most of the characters are meh. The book boils down to take gladius and Calgary or vanguard and calgar. Or just play fake dark angels for the win. The win rate shows how poor it is, stop the overlap with dark angels blood angels space wolves and black templars it's hiding how weak the book is currently and anyone who wants their chapter white scars etc are stuck being low C tier and a 35% win rate.
Unfortunatelly nobody making those kind of tier lists care about any of those metrics. AoW specifically are rating the factions as they see their highest potential is if the top 1% players facing each other playing the best list possible. It doesn't matter how bad all the units that aren't in the list suck as they are not considered either way. Even big turney win rates aren't reflecting this metric, which causes a huge disconnect with their tier lists. What I personally hate just as much as anybody being buffled or even angry about their tier lists is how it is such a limited view on a faction but is still making a definitive statement on the faction as a whole. Especially since it seems that GW takes the competitive perception as indicator for whether they need to do anything or not, leaving a lot of factions with most of their codex broken because there is still suff in there that is playable..
I agree, I would add a lot of they buffed they weaker detachments to add more playability and flavour. Not super strong just bring the never played detachments up to the two good ones each codex has. The data is there so it's an easy fix.
If we got more than 3 detachments, or 3 playable detachments then sure. Yours isn't a new take, the AoW team have said the same since start of the edition. If the chapters got 6 detachment each, then lock them out of normal detachments. They're building 3 specialist detachments based on that specific subfaction and their playstyle. AND GW STILL FAILS.
Great content guys, once you get your head around how the tier list is structured, ie players playing the army to maximum potential it makes so much sense. People have their own views and I think its broadly right. With Space marines the easy fix is firstly to say if you have your own codex you cant use the Space Marine one. Each codex must stand or fall on its own merits. Second that as the guys said if you are taking say Raven Guard (Yep thats me) then in addition to whatever detachment your JPI's and assault intercessors mele weapons get Lance on the charge. White Scars could do the same for mounted units, and so on. Last that if you are playing codex space marines then you can take characters from two different legions in your army.
Shadow of the Warp is still super swingy. When it does work its amazing, but more often then not it doesn't. I feel very good about them right now though, one or two detachments could use a touch, and some datasheets are still trash but that's sorta standard.
Will building list ever return? Never got my how to make gulliman work list work. I know war room got priority but had to drop my membership lost my job new one doesn't pay quite as much and playing catch up on some personal life stuff so might be abit till I return to the war room but still a fan
The new Thursday talk show has replaced fix and build a list due to relative lack of popularity of those streams in comparison to our others. The War Room does feature more regular list idea videos however
If Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard go to 120/240 instead of 150/300 that will be a huge. 300pts for 6 SG is kinda much. The Death Company Assault Intercessors I think are fine at 115/230, the real question is going to come from how the Epic Character are priced. Astorath at current price is 85 Codex is 105, is having Devastating on the charge throughout the game worth a 20pt increase? I don't think so, if anything you are realistically going to get maybe 2 charges off before they die, so him at 90pts I would be okay with. 130 Dante, 125 Mephiston, 140 Sanguinor sure ... But just changing SG & Astorath down gives me back 75pts which is Scouts and Enhancement, or Lt w/ Combi-Weapon, or even Assault Intercessors.... Which I will take. Current BA list Astorath + 10 Death Company Marines Capt w/ Jump Pack+ 6 SG Captain (Relic Shield)(Speed of Primarch) + 6 BGV Lt w/ Combi-Weapon Intercessor 2x5 Jump Assault Intercessors 6 Inceptors 5 Infiltrators 2x5 Scouts Repulsor Should be 1990 points in total as long as I didn't mess up anything
Death guard fell victim to GW turning in their homework late. GW turned in the Q1 Death Guard balance changes at Q2, when the Q1 general changes had already hit them harder than GW thought they would. Ultimately, GW kicked them while they were down and now we just need to hope for help in the Q3 balance update... and maybe a codex?
@@fuedworks They're pretty solidly on6 the middle, which is okay, but they're one of the armies with a few really bad matchups that create a bit of a competitive wall.
@vaettra1589 its a launch faction for 10e and currently the second or so most played in tournaments. This means s gazillion newbies that don't know how to play the game is bringing down the winrate. These guys don't rate newbies.
If you listen to them they clearly say they aren't taking win rates into account. This tier list is considering the army if a top level player is the pilot
"LEARN THE GAME, BECOME YOUR BEST" You're not demonstrating good educator skills when, as a near-complete outsider, I have to scan through three hours of footage to find the information I'm looking for, not to mention that none of these factions have text to them, so who am I even looking at? Who are you talking about? I have no idea, but this is supposed to advertise your company? Not a great look.
Guys you have to stream and then make edited versions of the long form content. This is what every big streamer does. Also, you NEED visual clarity. If someone skips around a bit they have no idea what army your talking about. Just show the army you’re talking about. Also, the thumbnail art for the armies is small and unclear, meaning it’s hard to see what your talking about
Well, they did say this doesn't reflect only win rates. However, while having an insane win rate does not automatically make them S tier, they are obviously super good still, and the fact we are still seeing people wint gts with them and place top 5, while space marines once in a blue moon scrape into a top 5, does not lend total credence to their ratings. Don't get me wrong, AoW is among the best players of the world, but sometimes these ratings do not give their reputations justice.
@@trlongwell lol they joke about out of context reddit screenshots of their tier lists all the time on this channel. I genuinely think there's lots of people that do not actually listen to the reasons given and probably just skipped to either their faction(s) or to the end.
It isn't just White scars, it includes all of the marines, which mainly is UM propping up the space marine generics. It also doesn't include all of the detachments either, as the WS and Imp Firsts "detachments" are hot garbage for generic marine factions(ok, imp fist is just hot garbage regardless of who is trying it out). But even then, people aren't cracking top 5 at tables, which is what I like to look at when I look at top armies in the meta.
Ultramarines are divergent as far as I'm concerned. They have calgar that farms CP, and thus makes it a viable list. Add in ventris for deep strike on a unit that otherwise would be move blocked and that's double so.
Mics are desynced, stream died once, and visuals are lackluster. Overall you guys need to bring in someone to fix your livestreams. IDK if its just these two running it live, or if they have someone behind the camera, but either way the quality is so low on this its honestly D-Tier. Please for all that is holy get some help boys.
Guys, no disrespect, I love the channel but you gotta get better at the livestreams. I’ve seen a few now. Top tens and tier lists are the easiest content to make - they’re a dime a dozen here so the extra effort you save in creating original content should go to crystal clear tech. This vid (and others) had audio drops, mics desyncing and other technical problems. It’s 2024, streaming properly is a baseline.
It feels very disingenuous to say "Space Marines are good". In fact special Space Marines are good. If you are just Codex Space Marines you aren't even playing the same game.
The problem you run into is that the space marines are an amazing supplement, but only as a supplement. Sorta like agents of the imperium. Just not good as a supplement army.
@@Asyr with my White Scars. Assuming someone allows me to use legends , not really. But l am sure there are some best players in the world with the arny... no wait they don't play WS.
