Thanks for the update, Chris. Funny things going on over there. My solution was to simply use the last version of Raspi OS Buster, which I'll be using until this clusterupgrade is settled.
I was thinking of using the former last version of Buster for my camera projects. Seeing that high resolution was messed up that might still be something to consider, not that I need anything above 1080p really
I have a bet of a advantage have a number of Pi’s in my collection of SBC’s. I’m running Bullseye on one of my Pi 4’s and playing with all the features. But on 2 older models I’m running buster. I believe the raspberry pi corp made on of the biggest upgrade mistakes in their history. Now we will have users from different camps all trying to get the best performance out of their boards.
Thank you, Chris, for another informative video. I think you make a salient point about our expectations for free software. Nevertheless, the Raspberry Pi is not free. It is a piece of hardware that comes with software, much like how we buy our computers now. Very few people buy a bare-bones computer these days. So if the hardware is sold with software, it seems that there is a responsibility for the hardware vendor that loads the software to ensure that it works for the essential functions most will use. A camera is one of those. The Pi folks did respond quickly with a fix, but it is far from ideal. The other issue here has to do with expectations. If the vendor labels the OS as an upgrade, then the expectation is that it is improved and better in some way from the previous version. The lesson I suppose is that if your computer is working well, don't upgrade unless absolutely necessary. Breaking your machine is never an upgrade.
Really glad to learn about that resolution limit in the Legacy OS, and the feature give/take between Legacy and the mainline "compatibility mode" options. The whole camera situation is a rare misstep on the part of the OS team. But even with the snafu, the foundation still has the absolute best software support among all the SBC offerings. Hopefully something a little more elegant will slip out of the pipeline soon, but if not, well, it's not the end of the world. Old APIs break all the time and legacy code will have to keep up or fall by the wayside at some point, regardless of how well the transition is/n't handled by the vendor.
As a commercial enterprise, I understand wanting to limit their exposure to a single version of an OS, however, as an educational foundation, unless they want to really toss the whole of all the legacy educational material out the window, I believe they had to come up with this 'patch' to the new Bullseye. Since they 'borrowed' Debian in the first place, most of the argument that they 'create' and 'support' the OS is specious at best. The Debian programmers and groups that create the base ARM-HF and ARM-64 images are the ones doing the 'heavy lifting'. RPiFoundation and RPiCommercial only need to support their shims and patches that fit the software to their hardware. In the future I hope they have learned at least one lesson from this issue.
Good point about software support. Most of the time you only get one or two kernel updates on an Android phone. I gotta say I was impressed with the support on my QNAP Nas from 2012. 10 years later and still getting software updates.
Wishing you a happy Christmas & New year! Thank you for another interesting video and the hard work put in over the years, I'm looking forward to what'll happen in 2022 and beyond :) The interesting thing is that we don't pay a penny for the OS, updates or patches. Making donations to a Linux distro of choice does help the developers to maintain it, there's no such thing as a free lunch.
Chris, fantastic closing remarks at the end. A recent _Computerphile_ video about the Log4J Java vulnerablity also touches on this topic. That nearly every government, educational institution, open source project, and billion dollar company depends on software libraries that 2 guys maintain in their spare time speaks to the sorry state of open source funding and its long term sustainabilty. I don't think that many great solutions that really scale are available yet, but love that the dialogue is being started by folks like yourself Computerphile, Jeff Geerling and hopefully soon many more. Keep up the great work!
I make a distinction between running my computer when I need it to be secure and when I don't and when I can do what I want to do with one off line with some stable, simple programs, using old junkers instead of relying on one newer computer makes that possible. I like using Puppy Linux with a read-only optical disc as a live boot when I really need security - though who knows how long that's going to work. It is true that the current model of having enormously complex operating systems maintained for free is probably not sustainable in the long run. Very sensible commentary, one of the things I depend on from you. I hope you have a happy New Year.
Over the decades things that started out as freeware or shareware have morphed into payware in order to remain sustainable. Like you, I think it's inevitable that operating systems will do the same.
@@ExplainingComputers I think we met once many many years back at an early computer show at Perdiswell Sport Centre. I remember that day as I bought a Voodoo 3dfx video card and I sure you were standing next to me.
Happy new year Chris. Great follow up video. Very fast turnaround from Raspberry Pi corp. I’m sure your last video on Bullseye problems had something to do with the quick fix!
Great video, with excellent explanation of the major differences in Pi OS / Legacy. Just wanted to wish you a Merry Christmas! Looking forward to your videos in the new year.
Chris, just got the v2.1 camera and latest version (23-02-23) seems like a whole new ballgame. just took its first picture with the libcamera-jpeg command. ouch! new commands to learn (and putting the old v1.2 camera in the box.) thanks for at least including the command for libcamera-jpeg, just a matterof learning the new interface.
Interesting point about Operating Systems. The big operating systems (Windows, macOS, iOS, Android) are heavily subsidized by their cost partly being hidden in the price of new hardware and ever increasingly also by app store purchases and data collection and aggregation. But most Linux distributions don't have the benefit of having their development subsidized like that and rely heavily on donations and free labor from enthusiasts. Even the paid enterprise distros, like Red Hat, are still on old-school direct payment/licensing models.
This reminds me of how bad some drivers were between Windows 3.11 and XP for Microsoft mice. The agrivation of hunting down the expanded drivers from the instalation disc and copying prior to the self deleting it would do before trying to actually install the drivers. On the Pi side, I am suprised that the equivalent of drivers for the cameras do not have a way to download/install in the new OS utilising the old name calls ( think Direct X naming convention and draw routines thet MSBasic let us use ) along side the 'new ' call convention. The only way I have coded this kind of thing ( over 10 years ago, so don't try this unless you like a DOS prompt ) was to do it the really old fasioned way and use Make command as well as " Make install " and be verry prepared to restore a complete drive image if it did not work.
Good point on the problem of free software generally... it's not a self-sustaining ecosystem and if it's to be more serious than a hobby, depends on external funding one way or another. Pi has the advantage of selling hardware to support itself.
@@ExplainingComputers Hi there. Can i ask you something please? I was just wondering, ive looked at your video of other OS programs to run on the PI but it was made in 2020. Im considering the "Ubuntu-mate" as my first OS, which looks cool. Do you have a favourate in 2022 for PI 4 +B 64 ? What id like is to be able to run crypto "nodes" and earn passive income from it. So id need to able to put windows based programs on it. Do windows progs work on pi's? Also theres ones where you can earn through lending out your spare bandwidth to vpn services, and get rewards that way. It allows me to have up to 10 ip's per my single account, so laptop, mobile, work and others. They dont allow proxies Vpn's. So i was thinking of getting a business internet connection that lets me have 10 static ip's that i can connect to vm's on the PI, and in that way id have 10 connections running down my single home internet cable, just a thought 🙂 Also... Im thinking of creating my own web server so that i can have a backup ssd drive 🙂 and maybe try and create my own crypto token EEEEeee!
Chris, as usual, very helpful video for us who try to keep up. A couple of things about Bullseye... The new windowing system is incompatible with most VNC servers. It appears to work but it's in the details that you notice missing close buttons, icons that disappear when selected and other tortures for the user. Also, most python libraries do not seem to have been updated. Can't get PIL to install, for example.
Excellent comment about support of Raspberry Pi, and other OS support, Christopher! As only a few Linux distros have paid for support, it’s about time that the developers were compensated.
Thank you very much for this critical information. I follow your channel and have been very please the time lapse of Growing Cress Seeds, clouds, and ice melting. I would have been lost over this new OS without your help. I fortunately new not to upgrade to the Bullseye OS. Thank you
Sorry to say nothing is truly for free. When the users become the testers of newly released software of any kind, their time is wasted trying to make something defective function. Thank you for the update on the Raspberry Pi OS. Your previous presentation about the lack of backwards compatibility nudged RPi group to release a legacy version of the OS.
I’m not doing a “sudo apt dist-upgrade” until there’s proper Python support for the cameras. By that I mean a new Python library for Bullseye and Python 3.9.3. Great video as always Chris.
I hear what you're saying about support for one's favorite OS: I'm one of those who makes a small payment each month to support continued development of my favorite Linux distribution. It's the least we can do, and really does help bring greater quality of development, better diversity of available software, and other benefits to the distro. Perhaps, one day, I might move to the Raspberry Pi, but for now I'll stick with the big iron. It is nice to see just how capable a Raspberry Pi 4 is in this video.
Season's greetings, Christopher, and thank you for the ongoing stream of informative videos. You make a fair point about funding software support, but people will always find ways to rip off proprietary software whereas hardware, by and large, has to be paid for, so funding software from hardware profits seems to me to be a viable option. The profit on a Raspberry Pi may be small but they shift vast quantities and sell everything they can make - try buying a Pi 4 today (Boxing Day 2021), they're like hens' teeth!
I buy a computer and get the operating system free. Yet, for many of us, that free system eventually dictates that we buy a new computer. Isn’t technology fascinating. I’m sure Mr. Scissors and Stanley the Knife could cut straight through to a proper solution. Looking forward too your next video!
Thank you for the update Chris. The problem I have had with the HQ camera has been when using a Zero, and controlling it through VNC. There is no image appearing on the remote screen image. The process of taking a photo, and saving it to a file works, but when trying to get the focus sorted that is "inconvenient". As I want to use my camera to take long series for astrophotography (powered by a phone charger battery), I have not yet worked out a satisfactory solution for outside or field focussing.
I do accept your comments regarding the evolving nature of free OS development, but I am puzzled why they couldn't solve this without needing a "legacy" version of Raspian. Clearly in the raspi-config they are doing some shuffling around of shared libraries, so if the "old" libraries are being substituted why couldn't they allow the pycamera library to work with these old libraries enabled? Perhaps camera support is too tightly linked into the Kernel. It would also have been more "pythonic" to have the new python library backward compatible, so that you just include 'pycamera' as before and python uses the libraries that are installed. That would have meant that all the examples and tutorials out there would still apply, even if they now miss out on new features. Given the educational nature of the Raspberry Pi Iwould have thought that this would have been an important consideration for the foundation.
This should be true; however, I suspect that there are some proprietary, close-source, binary blobs involved somewhere, and less than full, open documentation of the hardware, which makes the camera system more difficult to fix than it ought to be. You have no right to repair!
Good rundown on the changes. The cost of OS's is a bit of a paradox, it's why I'm on Linux, got sick of buying Microsoft products, I don't mind paying for them but do mind when a few years down the line you are told to cough up for a new OS because it won't work anymore. I don't use the current free versions because once you're on Linux you realise you don't need it.
Regarding OS support: recently a German law was passed that requires manufacturers of digital devices to provide software updates for the expected life span of a product because for many products at some point the manufacturer just stops providing updates or shuts down a server that is essential for the product to function.
as always well done and presented. May I ask an off topic question? Any advice on books on Linux terminal commands? Thanks in advance, trying to guess is driving me a bit nuts. lol.
While my Pi is only used as a home server with no cameras I have not been able to update it to Bullseye. That said, Debian seems to be the only current OS that supports 32-bit processors. I have a couple of Via C7 1ghz thin clients that I successfully installed the latest release of Debian Bullseye on (headless) with no issues and the performance is exceptional.
While I see where you're coming from with your comments on the current "free" OS model, I do have a couple of comments to add: - Windows isn't free on a new PC, it always adds to the price, even on badged hardware. Ebuyer often used to have systems with a choice of Windows or FreeDOS that had a significant price difference. Many manufacturers do hide the price of the licence in the cost of the product, but only in the same way they might hide the price of hardware components. - IMHO the problem with maintaining the operating system these days comes with the fact that they (such as Microsoft) are not only supporting an OS but an ecosystem that they want you to buy into. Gone are the days (even with many Linux distros) when an OS was just that and you chose the applications that you preferred. I'd be nuch happier if Windows was more in line with the functionality offered in XP and you sourced the component you needed rather than having the likes of Skype, XBox gaming bars, Edge, etc... that need constant updates to keep us safe. Thanks for the usual high quality presentation that gets me thinking. :)
Ahoy Chris, Thanks for letting us know about the problems with the new RPi OS. My problem is that I consider an upgrade something that can be applied over my present system. RPi OS 11 cannot do that, it has to be a new install. It took me about 7 months to get my system where it is now and don't relish that process again. I use MIDI keyboards etc and just getting MIDI working well took me almost a month.; anyone who uses Linux can tell you how finicky the sound is. I still can't use Pulseaudio and 2 months ago my Jack server broke. This happened right after a power failure messed with my SSD. I can still run my system but any attempt at a BU fails. My plan now is to get a new Bullseye system setup on a HDD on my RPi 400. When I get it all done and working I'll reformat my SSD and copy the HDD over to my SSD. Ah well, it's a long winter with time to spare here in Ohio USA. Happy Holidays! MC10Guru
Maybe I'm missing something, but running from the terminal looks as though it could have been fixed with a symbolic link or an alias setting. Python's libraries are a different kettle of frogs. P.S. thanks for keeping on schedule. Not all of us have relatives to fend off. :-)*
It's kinda weird that they rolled out 'legacy' image but not used it to help to switch mainline OS to 64-bit version. Someone at RPiF started celebrating new year way too early
Your presentation is excellent as usual. But I don't like the the direction the PI is heading. It seems the Pi5 will be a media station/CCTV substitute and not a maker's general purpose computer!
They say that the old way of handling cameras is deprecated, but they don't explain why. It seems to work just fine, so why was an alternative method developed instead of just new iterations of the existing one?
Happy New Year. I get what you mean about endless updates how ever I have an Android tablet that will not let me upgrade and now can't run apps like RU-vid, Twitter, etc so a perfectly good tablet will now have to be replaced with a newer one. Planned obselescence IMO.
Thank you Chris ! Another great video for the pi users!!! Have you tried the MX version for the pi? It is based on debian(raspberry pi os) but it is very well putted together. For my pi4 i use this one and the manjaro xfce version . Anyway give a try if you want! You will be amazed!!!
Happy holidays! Here we are, back again, for another fine videoooo. Trade offs galore by going legacy but nice to see the availability for the legacy needs. “OSes are always a work in progress” as is our “species.” 🙄
Merry Christmas and a happy new year. OS are constantly changing. Some device stop working. It is great that a legacy version is released. Thank you for another episode. Looking forward to next year show already.
Great video - but it seems to be about fixing an issue that should never have occured in the first place. Rule 1 for deploying new computer operating systems is not to break important existing applications. PI foundation appear to have forgotten this rule.
It depends what you want to do with the camera. If you want to access it using Python code (including doing any of the existing projects or tutorials you may find online), you have to use the Legacy OS.
This must have been answered elsewhere but right now, without hunting down an answer I can't by the life of me understand why did those changes were made in the first place. It can't be a change for change's sake, there must be a (hopefully good) reason behind that. Is it related to Python? Another thing I don't understand is why we don't have yet small OS kernels embedded in our computers, in a way that would be impossible for any other program or even the rest of the OS itself to alter it without the user going there and physically pressing a switch or shorting a jumper. Our day to day use could (potentially, can't tell for sure) be much more secure that way.
I think the issue with the camera drivers is that Arm is not only a business partner but also a business competitor. The owners of the driver software feel threatened as Arm is now huge.
Your LED lights have a noisy driver. I just did an install of cameras in a refurbed building that has similar problem lights. This will be putting noise into everything you use in your studio. It can be solved by shielding the drivers or replacing the lights with ones that are interference free. Not sure that I agree with you about Windows being free. Microsoft always get their cut and we pay in the price of the machine or in an enterprise, through licensing. They also stand in the way of document standards becoming a reality because they continue to muddy the waters with the dominance of Office file formats etc. I agree that people need to suuport any Linux Distros they use but the Pi makes its money selling hardware. They wouldn't have anywhere near the sales without an OS. Armbian is a decent distro but they need support from the SBC manufacturers to ensure its viability. Many Opensource projects like Apache etc. get funding from various significant players. So I am all for the manufacturers funding Linux distros and enterprises having a version to buy that includes support. Some already offer this.
Thanks for this. I indeed have a bulb that needs replacing -- it is normally turned off when I am filming with camera. But this video was sort of different! :)
Chris called this in the first video. What an unfortunate set of affairs. To take a more negative tact, the fact that RPi even made the decision to take the approach is worrying. At least they have put it right, and as Chris pointed out, screeds of educational matter hasn't been rendered instantly redundant. Although a lot of one line "Raspberry Pi OS (Legacy) or earlier required" addendums potentially required.
I think I missed the point about free OS updates. Is this the same for volunteer distros as for corporate? Considering the cost of new iOS devices, updates are included, not gratis. Of course, Apple prices are part of the Apple lifestyle. 💸
Apple (and Android) updates are not included indefinately -- the price includes a limited number of updates, not ongoing support. For example, I believe that an iPhone 6 no longer receives updates.
Interesting that the crash states "Failed to enable component: Out of resources". I wonder if it's a driver limitation where it tries to allocate more pixel memory space than the driver is able to handle at those higher resolutions (definitely NOT a 4GB limit, my napkin math for a 8-bit depth picture raw at the max res is >256MB,
