I really understand that if people buy something popular and expensive and a well respected reviewer rates it poorly, it makes one feel they made a bad investment. It’s like buying a car, being very happy with it and your dad says you just bought the worst car ever. Thats why, when you buy something, just don’t read/watch reviews about your product anymore
absolutely true, but I guess the real reason for wanting to watch the reviews on the product they already bought is this need for endorsement or affirmation/ acknowledgement from others because deep down they might be somewhere little dissatisfied or unsettled or not totally sure of their huge investmen costing fortune being worth it.
Plenty of reviewers far superior to Andrew have given the Dragon rave reviews and practically all of the owners are more that happy with the Dragon and it's ATMOS effects. Sounds come from where speakers are not.
@@brosmile9388 I actually don't think he gave it a terrible review - the title he gave it was pretty clickbaity which is possibly why a lot of people are upset with him - but the review itself does point out the good and the bad, and tries to paint a picture of what to expect from the sound - sound taste is subjective after all - I think the main take away was - it's a lot of money for something that seemingly doesn't massively out-perform a lot of cheaper systems.
The bottom line is that the Dragon is NOT worth paying (near)4k or even 3k. Naka screwed the pooch with it's so underperforming subs and Atmos effects. Now, it looks to fix that issue with better subs and a much MORE expensive price. I've always respected Andrew because he always backs his statements with accurate measurements. I would rather spend less money on the Sony HT-A9M2 and get a better Atmos feel than the dragon.
I’m either going 990c/d for value (Toyota) or the quad+sw5 (Lexus) for better WAF. They should call it The Hidden Dragon cause it will stay only in the basement and you have to spend time to train it to unlock its full potential. It’s not going into the home theatre room because they usually go with traditional AVR gear.
Can easily believe it’s longer than an afternoon but looking at YT videos it seems he’s released 8 videos in the last 30 days ( bravo - seriously that’s hard work and efficiency) but I have a hard time believing he can take significant of time with each. It’s really not a knock - if he did his channel would have many fewer videos and subscribers and make less money.
@@neverenoughtechmost of his reviews are done after sitting with the product for a month, and comparing and contrasting them versus things he has on hand. He doesn't take shortcuts or rush reviews, and it's almost never first to review something because he wants to make sure he gets it right. Just because he and his wife work hard to have steady content, doesn't mean his work is rushed.
@@neverenoughtech Andrew has explained previously that he doesn't do evaluations sequentially and does multiple at a time, even though he records and releases the RU-vid videos sequentially. According to Andrew's livestream today, he spent 2 to 2.5 weeks living with, playing with, adjusting, and evaluating the Dragon. So even if he releases 2 RU-vid videos a week (or whatever) doesn't mean he only spends 3-4 days evaluating each product.
@@neverenoughtech It is easy for me to believe that Naka paid you to do a review in the first place and secondly, you likely received proverbial marching orders to make your response video. Also, aren't you a hand picked channel to review the new subs when they are released ?
@@Runsteady Objective measurement show it doesn't play music anywhere near 35Hz unless you are talking about -30 dB down in listening level, or unless you are talking about noise. Note that Nakamichi claims that it can play down to 20 Hz which is absurd.
@@Mark-rw3kw I’m responding to @mradi5854 ‘s comment that his subs are non existent. Just cause the dragons frequency response isn’t great below 40hz doesn’t mean the subs are non existent. Most movies and shows don’t mix below 40hz to begin with. Regardless, I’m just saying that it is existent and can get fairly loud and visceral.
@@Runsteady I think the point is that Nakamichi claimed response down to 20 Hz, and just in the last few days (or week) Nakamichi announced some new subs that can be added to the Dragon that enables it to go to 20 Hz, but Andrew did not review those because they were not available when he did his review. Also, the new subs add a considerable amount of money to the cost of the Dragon (if one purchases the new subs to add to their existing Dragon).
@@Mark-rw3kw I get your point, but it still doesn’t mean the subs are non existent! I’m not disagreeing with you that Naka has some questionable marketing practices. As a dragon owner myself, I do feel slighted, but it’s still a fantastic sound bar solution.
If the tweeters change so drastically via break-in then something is broken. Realistically, however, your brain adjusted to the sound in some way. From a QC perspective if a speaker changes *so* drastically with “break in” then how do you know when it goes from “broken in” to just plain “broken”? Additionally, having measured well over 200 speakers to date the “brash” sound that you and Andrew reference would be higher in frequency; well above the frequency region where break in would change the performance (however slight it would already be). You even referenced the highs as “sharp” even accounting for your break in exercise. Regarding subwoofer crossover, placement is more key than the frequency. Unfortunately, neither you nor Andrew provided distance between the main bar and the subwoofers (unless I missed it here).
Totally agree with Erin. While true there is some small change due to physical components moving and loosening up, etc., most of those changes are measurably small for most speakers. It’s likely that our ears/brains adjust and that, like most users, we adjust placement or EQ or other factors to make the speakers sound best to our ears. Most of the break in is just psycho acoustic nonsense.
Well that’s not true anymore … so jokes on you. But the vast majority of SB owners don’t have them and don’t use them and want a subjective judgment. I would say the AVR folks are more caught up in measurements - the iPhone 4 joke was funny
@@neverenoughtech The point stands. If you have to make well-but arguments and excuse obvious gaps in the packaging, hardware, marketing, measurements and performance, from blaming the user to the content used, claiming a sound bar with tiny drivers needs to days of constant play back to break-in, your rebuttal is an attempt at personal confirmation and not objective evidence. I use an AVR, ran Dirac, haven’t had to modify settings for content ever. I have soundbars and powered two channel systems. None are plagued by even one of the issues from the dragon. I reviewed PC hardware for a long time. I understand the traps you are navigating, but really take a step back and reflect here.
12:20 - he stated that a male voice that goes down below 160hz could come from two different localizable places. From audiophile perspective yes this would be obvious, for others might not be obvious only if compared with other products side by side. This is well known you do want your speakers to hit 80Hz, it’s not subjective just physics
@@ErinsAudioCorner hello Erin - big fan! Somehow it feels im in the wrong haha. To my knowledge we use different cues to determine the directivity one of them being time difference between sound hitting both ears. Lower frequencies have bigger wavelengths that wrap around head. Whilst it’s not dead on 80Hz, in my experience i could stretch as high as 110Hz before things started to sound a bit wrong. You can push it bit higher with dual/multiple subwoofers and depending on distance to front speakers also. By saying audiophile, i mean someone who’s trained in listening to various cues vs someone that isn’t. For the latter higher crossover with sub that are placed far from soundbar might not present any issue - i can believe that, but for those who are will pick on it. What are your thoughts?
A true home theater doesn’t have sufficient WAF for my living room. I went with the Q990C which is HUGE compared to most sound bars. The Dragon is way bigger than the q990c so it wouldn’t have been acceptable either. I think this is where Samsung nailed it. It’s like the asked “what is the most impressive system that the average wife can live with?” They found that line and the built something to get as close as possible without going over.
You should check out Polk Magnify Mini AX. You'll be amazed to see how big the sound it can produce effortlessly bein just one 14 inch soundbar and 1 sub. The Atmos effect is definitely where Q990B/C wins but less WAF compared to Polk Magnify mini.
Bottom line, this thing isn't worth the price they are asking. It doesn't have enough features to compel me to break with $3500 or whatever they are asking. I can be just as happy with the Q990D if I'm looking to go the soundbar route. But it's Nakamichi that wants to put themselves in the space with more traditional systems which allow MUCH greater sound quality and features. Sorry, but if I'm wanting to truly feel DTS X Pro I'm not going with a soundbar. I'd spend that money on a real system. Start with a Cinema 30 and some truly nice speakers.
Dude, $3500 or whatever they are asking? What if they ask $2500? No soundbar can compete With Nakamichi Shockwafe or Dragon. You have to mix, match, intall and calibrate a traditional system. $10,000, ask me how I know...
@brosmile9388 I'm not advocating for any soundbar, including the Dragon. $3500, for me, is better spent on a complete system. If I were to buy a soundbar, it would be the Q990d. It may not be as loud as the Dragon, but I'm saving 2k by buying the next best thing. Your argument falls on deaf ears here. I can install and calibrate my own system. If I spend 10k, I know it's going to sound good and will be easy to upgrade when the time comes.
The review was NOT based on just first impressions. He lived with it for awhile. If you watched the follow up unplugged they even had valid complaints for their Olympic watching experience
Also… are we supposed to just take the plunge on a 4 thousand dollar soundbar and just let the return period end because “trust me it gets better with time”
@brosmile9388 i'm very interested in this soundboard, but not for the one with the correct subs to cover their initial claim. That new middle op is 5,600 I think
This was pretty weak. Couple sticking points: 1) Andrews review shares the experience most people will have. If after 40 hours of play the system still sounds brash? I (and 90% of people) am sending it back. If break in is needed, Nakamichi would do it before shipping. Schiit audio does break in on their equipment that needs it, manufactures in the US, and is price competitive: so there is no excuse. 2) you wildly guessed at the listening times Andrew had when you could have just asked him instead of speculating. I assume you didnt bother because you didnt spend enough time with this review to put it out😘 3) They straight up lied on their marketing. Average joe aint on the email chains you are on. Asking for another $2k rather than making it right with the people who bought in to your miss represented product is scummy 4) The diminishing returns argument is a strawman in your video. For $4k ($6k for the system accurate to the bill of goods they sold) you can buy a theatre setup that stomps the shit out of the dragon, will rip your head off with volume, and plays music to audiophile levels. The Dragon is a bad value for what you get.
1. As a reviewer I think it makes sense to tell people what the speaker sounds like after significant playtime. The customer can break it in more organically than me. 2. I think my guesses here probably missed the mark but I do have a sense of what it takes to put out a video. I imagine Andrew is very efficient … nonetheless he reviews four products a month plus around four other conversational videos. This is not a character dig. For him to be as successful as he is he couldn’t spend copious amounts of time with the Dragon or at least any one product and release at that pace - there are lots of other business type issues he has to grapple with as well I imagine. I often struggle with balancing listening time with actually making a video and I release 1/6th of the content he does. 3. I voluntarily release my communications with Nakamichi for transparency. I can see why people are annoyed with Nakamichi about the updated subs but if you compare to Samsung, for instance, you have to buy a whole new system to get updates … As Andrew said he has been told how great the subs are by commenters. So there are numerous happy customers. I think Nakamichi thought there would be more - so they are offering an updated sub. I made my thoughts clear on the 20hz claim and they deserve heat for that. My chart’s Y-axis is perceived awesomeness subjective to the buyer. If HT was everything everyone ever wanted, SBs would not exist. I disagree with the straw man argument. I appreciate the time you took to put your thoughts down
A $3500 system should not need time to "acclimate". I bought the 990D for $997 on sale and it took me less than an hour to set up and be happy with the sound.
Nakamichi clearly is a shady company that intentionally misinforms it's customers and attempts to change narratives (using influencers/creators) when factual truths are made public. Videos like this, as well as others, really puts into question which creators are those that received the direction from Ray (Nakamichi CEO) to help re-shape the more recent narrative.
The Nakamichi Company today is completely not same that was back in the 70's, 80's and early 90's. I have there tape decks and car audio back in the day and they were great back then! Now they want you to spend even more money for the 12" subs which puts the system north of 6k which is just crazy talk now.....They have priced there way right out of the market especially not to have any type of room correction on board and wi-fi.
Now nakamichi is hongkong's company focus on cheap and bad quality audio. The old japan's nakamichi is awesome company. Too bad people prefer cheap skate products than real deal product with higher price
Great video. One request... when you review the 12" subs please also review the Dragon with one 12" sub running with two 8" subs as most of us can't afford two 12" subs
24:28 “can be coaxed and matured into something special” over a long period of time like he said it needs isn’t something I believe is worth ever paying 4 thousand dollars. Double specially when it requires you to get past all return policies leaving you then stuck with a 4 thousand dollar humongous box just filled with regret.
@@neverenoughtech from my understanding return policies are not the same as warranties. You can’t return an item after 3 weeks just because you don’t like it. At least to my knowledge most of the world has at most 2 weeks return policies no questions asked. Also, I think a good product shouldn’t require this much time or tinkering as most products don’t and from my understanding even in receivers and home theater systems that used to require a ton of setup are getting more and more automated and easier to deal with. Thus my opinions about all of this. I got an lg soundbar last year, with tinkering I could get it to sound good on most content, but not great, returned it and got the 990c and it’s awesome, simple to setup, great all around. And that’s the thing, your audience is more niche, at least from what I’ve seen here in the comments, which is fair and probably the target audience of the dragon. However I think that Andrew’s review is crucial to warn the average consumer that the dragon isn’t like a 990 series or most other soundbars, it requires tinkering, a lot of setup, basically no automation, lacks a ton of features, isn’t even that incredible of a sound profile, it’s just big and brash and some people like that which is fine but for 4 or 3 thousand, someone needs to be in the middle of a pretty complex Venn diagram. Which is fine, I mean he ended it he review saying that the only person that need to like your system is yourself. I mean just compare the setup with the newest Sony’s Caleb said that he place the speakers in all kinds of horrible places and still it was great and it handled everything pretty impressively. So we can’t just compare sound in the best possible scenario, we need to compare also the ease of use, how easy it is to get all that the product can offer.
@@neverenoughtech but look I love you channel and your work. I just think that you and Andrew have very but very very different audiences and are also 2 very different persons with different priorities. Your audiences are also different. And I really appreciated this video response to Andrew’s comments. It helps to put in context things, how some can love the dragon and other hate it. But I stand firm on the points I made before, because in the end the 990 series has been a universal recommendation by basically everyone. The Sony at and the most recent one also as well. Any person can buy them, easily set them up and have an awesome experience and that’s the point, because a lot of people are getting better and better sound and looking to the next upgrade or their endgame and the dragon isn’t that for most people, it isn’t a direct upgrade for other soundbars. That’s fine as well. Anyway thank you so much for this video, I think it really helps a lot!
My ideas of soundbars are that they are made for people who don't want the fuss of separate speakers. So making it a fussy soundbar defeats its purpose. That and the build quality (and the price) would make it a very unpopular unit for most. But that's my opinion.
I have a Bose and Kef home 7.2.4 theater. I love both and both have their place. I get the appeal over the dragon but a crossover of 300hz is horrible. You don't need to know anything else about it. 300hz is probably within some female vocals. That's not even bass. Most subs can't even go that high
there are other reasons soundbars exist. their ideal customer is not the one you described. perhaps its someon who likes to tinker but is space limited in some ways or limited in cable pathways
@@John-ok8ts trust me, I crossed over at 120hz and Diana Krall sounded so different that I couldn’t recognize her voice. Clint Eastwood’s intro to the song Gran Torino was unplayable until I hit 80hz and sounded best at 60hz. Acoustic guitars, holy crap! Unrecognizable until 60hz. Rock or kitaro’s masterpieces, don’t try it:). I had to research frequency charts and realized that what we consider bass is part of almost all sounds.
@@techsamurai11 Are we talking about the Bose. I think a cross over at 80Hz is fine. 60Hz I agree is better but you need to have some serious speakers for that and there's no way any soundbar is hitting that at any volume or distortion levels. There's no replacement for displacement. If speakers start rolling off at 100Hz you can get away with a crossover around 80. Remember it's a blend. They don't need to be flat all the way to 80Hz.
@@AdamCate Agreed. Soundbars have the their use cases. I own one and a home theatre and love them both but it sounds like the Dragon is just a shitty one.
Other kinda "bad" reviews of the dragon can be seen on LTT videos, Linus have 0 incentive to go easy on Nakamichi and he is an old reviewer by this point, revenues capable of being completely independent from reviews and sponsors money, and you can compare his face on the Dragon vs his old Ht-A9 videos. He kept the Sony for years, even going through the troubleshooting all the connection issues, he looks disappointed with the dragon.
Pretty disappointing video. We all know the dragon is crap. Well. Whoever is not a Stan knows it and Nakamichi reinforced it with new subs. It is what it is.
I think the whole "break in" period is horseradish. If a manufacturer really needs their product "broken in", then they should either plaster that all over their marketing and manuals, or do what Triangle does and break them in in the factory, or both. 48hrs break in is 2-4 weeks' worth of actual customer ownership time. And yet most places have at most a 30 day window for returns. Like I said, horseradish!
As a reviewer breaking in so that it reflects a products sound that would be closer to 2-4 weeks is probably wise. As there is a not earth shattering but relatively rapid maturation in sound when the product is new and you start using it. If I were to listen to a reviewer I would prefer the review be of his sound experience after a year of use - but this is not practical. As a regular customer - it doesn’t matter as much - you’ll break in through normal use. I wanted to point out that there is a change and I aimed to review the “changed” state not the initial.
@@neverenoughtech but I don't think you should break it in. Because that's not the experience that 99% of your audience will get out of the box. Again, unless a manufacturer is upfront and clear with every customer that break in is required or strongly encouraged, I don't think you should do it. Because then your experience will be different to most.
If a manufacturer produces equipment that requires break in and they dont do it in the factory, it show they dont have any concern for quality control. Plenty of audio brands do break in at the factory and are still price competitive. Schiit audio comes to mind.
So essentially you transferred your liability on someone else. Now that poor guy is suffering and probably looking for someone whom he could transfer his liability. Ultimatey someone else has to suffer for your reckless decision of buying it in the first place.
So let me get this right….. spend $4k on a home theatre system but you have to spend weeks, months with it, play with your dragon to get the best out of it 😂😂!! That’s some level of BS! Andrew’s main point and takeaway is if you’re spending that much on a black big ugly box it needs to atleast have some of the “BASICS” covered some level of auto customisation, heck WiFi or Ethernet. For anyone who hasn’t watched Andrew’s review, go watch it, it’s pure raw and facts based on his experience. Ultimately I am subscriber to both these channels and I also respect your opinions as much as I do Andrew’s. I just don’t see why you have to compare yourself to him or make assumptions based on his experiences, focus more on your on personal experience and not what other reviewers are saying. We come here to listen to you, not listen to you talk about Andrew, his looks, his wife etc.
I generally agree but special occasion with this system - and some people were curious about my take on the review. It’s getting views here and there. And I’m not making fun of his looks - rather I applaud his voice. And the husband wife team is cute. I also think his takeaway extends to the sound being somewhat irredeemable. I appreciate your respectful comment.
Great comment, it's the main reason we come to Daniel's channel as he is different but just shows how far down the rabbit hole this dragon mess has gone. Fact Daniel is now getting free review units instead of buying them (fair play can't argue) but makes you now wonder if the biased side will kick in to keep them happy. Only thing anyone was really interested in was to see if the figures were true and annoyingly it's the one thing that's missing from the video 😅
thats the fun part. placement and fine tuning! only lazy people want pure plug and play. lol its not an ugly big black box. its one, if not, the baddest looking sound bar out there! its just not for everyone.
I assume the reason Nak is maybe sending new subs to NET might be why this video seems like a dragon spin but …. Who knows. That said I enjoy the content here. But this video might change my views.
This should go without saying but this video was 100% NET. I was asked by commenters what my thoughts were so I thought I would try something new. Further I thought I would have the subs by now so I had a gap in my schedule.
This video has just been bugging me all day. You reinforce the problems that exist in this bar, validating the negative findings from the video you're reacting to, downplay the absolute marketing lies as okay because you like the bar (which is fine as audio experiences are subjective), turn into a Nakamichi brand embassador basically, and lose all reviewing integrity as a result. This whole video was such an unnecessary attack against Andrew's integrity and review philosophy by injecting your own narrative and assumptions of what you "think" was just a lack of time with the bar suggesting he's too busy being a big channel to possibly get things right. This video is disgusting. If you want to attack their graphs and data points, why not back up your own. You show the nakamichi is beamy and directional, suggest it could have been fixed by more time with the bar and adjusting the volume levels, then do not repeat your own test to prove so. This was one of my favorite up and coming tech channels and one of my favorites to watch when I was in the mood for more soundbar opinions. But this video shows you value your relationship with a brand more than your integrity as a reviewer and are willing to apologize on behalf of the brand for being misleading and creating a product that falls short of their promises (despite the incredible cost) so you don't lose the chance to cement your precious opportunity to review their new subs. I have to unsubscribe from your channel. I hope in the future you do better.
You have a problem with Daniel "injecting his own narrative and assumptions" and then... inject your own narrative and assumptions (i.e. "you value your relationship with a brand more than your integrity as a reviewer" & "so you don't lose the chance to cement your precious opportunity to review their new subs"). You have no way of knowing whether those accusations are true but that doesn't stop you from making them. Maybe Daniel should have reached out to Andrew before the video and discussed things, that's a fair criticism. But don't be the guy who gets angry about someone making assumptions and then assume Daniel only made this video to be a Nakamichi brand ambassador.
First, curious if you watched the whole video. I made this video because commenters asked me to give my thoughts on Andrew’s review. The reason it is bugging you (not clicking) is because I’m not a brand ambassador and I did not take an extreme position. An on the sly brand ambassador does not reveal communication, does not show a bunch of damaged products, does not say it has serious lows, does not say its difficult to access highs, does not say that Andrew is right about being dead last for a wide swath of customers. Find me a brand ambassador that says these things. Its fair enough that I should not assume how much time Andrew had with the system - though it wasn’t even meant as a slight but more a likely reality based on his output schedule - but in the same ‘breath’ you assume some really nasty things about me that you just don’t know about like I value relationship with brand more than my integrity. I buy virtually all the equipment I review - this is far from an opportunist kind of behavior. In terms of falling short of their promises … a whole lot of people are happy with the Dragon. These people feel like I’m biased against it. I did not attack the graphs (and I did present some of my own data), I said I think the rolloff is closer to 160 than 300 … and I showed how that could be interpreted in Andrew’s chart. I did not say his charts were of poor quality. Last, I don’t need Nakamichi to give me subs - I can buy my own. It is a good opportunity to be able to review first - again I was transparent in that communication. Sorry to lose you as a subscriber - maybe I’ll get you back.
@@neverenoughtechI did watch the whole video (nice job assuming again people just aren't taking the time to get things right [playful jest, not serious]). I selected "brand ambassador" verbiage because I wanted to stop short of saying this video felt like you were paid or compensated in some way to defend the product but didn't want to lose full credibility so you stopped short of outright contesting what was proven by measurements. Do I think you were paid? No. Do I think you value the brand more than your integrity, I don't have a solid opinion. This video really does feel needless and needlessly comes to the brands defense, but my overall experience with your work doesn't suggest that. I was more so trying to express how this video comes off to me and potentially others. Another advantage I have as a commenter and viewer is that I am not in a spotlight and don't have platform where I should showcase a base level of professionalism and respect for my peers by not making reckless assumptions that could damage another's brand and credibilty they've built over years unjustly without making even the simplest of attempts to reach out and validate my thoughts. Although viewers may have made you feel compelled to make a reaction video, a follow up review probably would have served your point better. All this video really does is try to discredit a fellow creator based on assumptions, reinforce a lot of the gripes expressed in the original content but brush it off as okay or fixable with no demonstration, and you could have more fairly just said the critiques of the bar in the video are well founded and fair but that doesn't take away from your experience, enjoyment of the product, or lessens what you said in your initial review that your believe it's an excellent product you stand by.
@@gilby7256a reviewer and content creator has more expectation of professionalism than myself as a random commenter. I was expressing my opinion of how this video may be viewed, rather than to express what might be truthful. It's just a disappointing mess.
I just watched Andrew's response to this. Yeah, Nakamichi is a trash company for what they are doing. You have to watch Andrew's response to get the depth of what's going on that led to this "reaction" video.
@@dfoster7001 Hate to say this, but I find this response unnecessary. Andrew pretty much hit everything on the head. Naka lies to their customers on many fronts and it's good to see someone (Thank you Andrew) call them out.
I’m not a regular viewer of either this or AR’s channel, and this whole thing serves as a great example of why. It’s also the reason I avoid engaging with the hifi “community” a lot of the time. Opinions are just that: opinions. But once anyone in hifi has one it seems like everyone else does one of two things: 1. Agrees with what was said, hits the comment section to lavish effusive praise on the reviewer, likely hoping to be mentioned in a later video. 2. Disagrees with what is said, and instead of framing it as a difference in taste, demand to be seen as having the “correct” opinion on the subject. I’ve come to the conclusion that the RU-vid reviewer community has become too catty. Reviewers, likely inspired by AR’s (well earned in all fairness) success and want to achieve the same for themselves. It’s made the whole thing far too extrinsic and I struggle to trust much of what’s out there.
13:35 with all due respect, you can't have the same criticism when the Q990D is literally half the price. the Dragon is 4 grand msrp. and for the amount of space it takes up, you could just buy cheap Polk Audio speakers with a pb3000 for the same price.
I own a nakamichi sound bar. The old 7.1.2 one and it works great in my bedroom. My living room has a full avr setup with 7.1.4 so I consider myself relatively knowledgeable in entry level hifi. Andrew said the subwoofer basically sucked at lower bass levels. And they just release a new subwoofer to fix the issues? Hmmm. It looks like they knew of the issue back in late 2023 too. Also Ealan said in Nov 2023 the bass bottomed out and was giving a whomp whomp whomp. And does anyone disagree that the .4. is BS? Nakamichi just trying to cover their butt. Smells like another Asus.
Just provide some solid measurement results to dispute a review by other reviewer. It's morally wrong to accuse other reviewers for their findings for a particular product without provide solid evidences from your assessment.
This is a common misconception of my statements: I never disputed his curve, I suggested an alternative read to Andrews measurements, pointing out a recovery at 160 before truly dropping off. A drop after 160 is closer to my crude measurements.
Lets be absolutelt fair to Andrew he champions sound bars more than MOST youtube audio people. He gushes over the Samsung and Sonos bars and has been quoted saying sound bars are the future. I think his experience is very fair from what he experienced.
@@timowthie the choice is subjective, the shortcoming is not. If you buy a sports car and they deliver a Minivan, objectively the Minivan is not a sportscar but subjectively you may prefer the comfort of the minivan.
That reviewer guy referred in this video is basically adept at social engineering skills. He has that skill and he exploits that to its fullest. He knows how to make a bad thing appear great and how a good one, appear bad.
"Andrew is right and factual, but Dragon is still good because my video review is sponsored by Nakamichi". I have Dragon and have to go with Andrew 100%. You sound petty and defensive.
I think people are just getting a little defensive wanting to justify what they spent a lot of money on and don't have a traditional setup to reference to. Andrew deals with a lot of high end and budget oriented setups and probably thinks 4k for something that doesn't deliver on their promises or meet a 4k dollar expectation is a huge mistake and I have to agree with Andrew. I had the original Nakamichi Shockwafe and when I switched to a Marantz, 7 Jamo concert series speakers, and 2 Jamo c912 subs I immediately noticed all the complaints he recognizes with the dragon. Too harsh, too loud, I was constantly reaching for the remote to turn up and down when scenes got loud or quiet and I just don't have that with my setup. The sound is more nuanced between the highs and the lows and the detail is incredible. If a can gets kicked across a room you can hear it traveling like 20-30 feet away from you because it can play a loud sound all the way down to a soft subtle sound with ease and without having to adjust the volume. All for $2500 after stands, cables, and ceiling mounts are included. Yes my Marantz is used off of Facebook, but still. It's nearly half the price of the dragon and if the dragon is anything like I remember of the Shockwafe. It's just no contest.
Not sponsored (I will take offense there) - I let people know in videos that Nakamichi contacts me for transparency - as far back as my original review. And (factually) I think it would be difficult to find a reviewer who reviews such expensive equipment that is less sponsored. And what are these facts and ultimate relevance. If frequency response curves (which are arguably not facts because there is error in them) are all we need, then why is there any other talking in the video - I agree they are useful guides? Subjective experience of the reviewer is really what you’re looking for. I agree with Andrew on over 90% of his assessments. We had a major divergence here on a high profile product so I elaborated on that - try something different. I don’t expect everyone to be persuaded. Andrew is a smart, convincing, articulate dude.
Did you notice how he has 3 separate bars due to the first 2 being so damaged? He probably didn’t pay a nickel since he and Ray are tight now. That’s why RU-vid is so bad these days. Andrew’s reviews are a rare commodity in the age of say anything for subs,likes and cash.
That makes Nakamichi look bad but they alleviated the "shipping" problem. He was transparent with his youtube audience by letting them know what happened.
I've heard the Nakamichi Dragon in person before and it is clear it is a great soundbar, however it is for large rooms and when the content and volume is in perfect harmony, it will blow your socks off. That said, for moi, the Nakamichi Dragon is not for me - I think it's overkill for my average size living room. I'm currently rocking a Samsun 990b and love it, however I still prefer the Bose sound and build for systems and wish someone over at the MIT labs would make better surrounds and bigger bass modules.
I bought one of the first 500 dragons. I didn't open my box until your first review, showed the damaged units. Because I was enjoying my Nakamichi shockwafe SSE eARC in my master bedroom which was a huge improvement over the original Nakamichi shockwafe SSE ARC. When I finally got around to the dragon, my jaw was on the floor how immersive it was and how good it sounded. My mom is 83 with vascular dementia. When she was Dreamgirls DTS X lossless sound on the dragon, it was like a tonic for her. She was completely blown away. My critical Nephew watched Ambulance and gave the dragon 10/10. I was watching Taylor Swift eras tour on Disney plus, in front of Hip hop kids 20 years old. The dragon sounded so good they watched the entire Taylor Swift concert. They really didn't know her music. I love my dragon and I will be ordering 2 12 inch subwoofers because although I have no problem with my current system. I know it will sound that much better with the upgrade. Andrew Robinson sounds bitter because he wasn't sent a free Dragon to review.
Andrew's 100% correct about the frequency response. Imagine paying $2,000 for any speaker and it rolls at 300hz. It would be the worst speaker made on the planet. Every review would be a straight F. I used a crossover of 120hz when I added a sub and my system lost 5-10 times its musicality - I thought my system had died. The volume completely disappeared (teeny sounding voices and instruments as they say for the Dragon) - the sub cannot reproduce the frequency the same way and there are also timing and positional issues. In 20 minutes, we were down to 60hz with SVS experts on the phone. Now, my mains are at 40hz. Once you realize what information exists in the upper bass and lower midrange, you will treat those frequencies as if they are gold. Most people think it's bass, it is NOT! It's part of the vocals and instruments and once you move it to the sub, it's game over. Most people put their subs next to the soundbar and may not notice that as much but it's still a huge issue. It's also not a coincidence that the order of sound quality for soundbars matches the crossover - Nakamichi Dragon (300-160hz), Bose 100hz, Sonos Arc 70hz, Sennheiser Ambeo 30hz. You cannot reproduce the same frequencies especially over 70-80hz and produce the same quality of sound. Nakamichi should have known that - they could have just asked me in a comment for help. And playing at SPL of 100+ db is just silly and horrible sounding - it will distort and distort terribly. I think Andrew measured 10% distortion. People talk about 0.1% distortion. That's 100x more distortion.
i think you are mixing up bass/subwoofer distortion with main speaker distortion. all subwoofers distort like crazy at lots of volumes. 10% is totally normal for a sub to distort. at higher frequencies the tolerance should drop to 1% or less. any soundbar system with a sub will have big distortion assuming you are measuring the distortion of the sub frequencies as well.
@@AdamCate problem is sub crossover way too high. Sound can be localized. Distortion can be localized. Then dragon sub distorts more than normal subs. Andrews sub distortion clip sounded horrible. For a real system sub crossover at 80hz you don't hear the problems as much. Also I'm sure those don't distort as much as these.
What DSP/EQ setting are you using? I've been using OFF, but Nak is recommending Movie3 (and Music3) to have the most neutral sound with the highest dynamic range. Thanks so much for this insightful followup video.
It's not just him. I've seen other reviews that weren't very positive. What Hi-fi being an example. I think if this bar was $1,000 cheaper they would have gone a little easier on it.
“Play with your dragon” dracaris or whatever the word is! lol entertaining video. Good stuff! BTW I picked up the Sony quad with the sw5. Setting it up tomorrow. Thanks for your informative review. It helped a lot in my decision.
From all my readings of all the people who hype a lot of crap, and Andrew's review, the dragon sounds like overpriced crap. You can get a decent full home theater system for that kind of money.
This is why you can't trust (especially smaller) channels that get their stuff for free. Andrew is big enough he doesn't need to guarantee a good review but even then he tends to sugar coat it a bit. He was even more brutal on his unplugged show
@@MrBjorn6 It sounded objective to me. Measurements don't lie. You can't seamlessly blend a speaker that rolls off at 300Hz and get decent sound. I made that mistake when I was just getting into the hobby with side surrounds and even though they rolled off lower than that it still sounded horrible. Anyone who has any experience would 100% agree with Andrew's review just looking at the objective facts. You don't even need to listen to it.
@@John-ok8ts the measurement was against the main unit alone, which the Dragon wasn't designed to be used. You can't even buy just the main unit individually. It's clear Andrew had an agenda behind his review.
Making a lot of videos does not mean degrading the quality of review, maybe Andrew and his wife just knows how to do their job right and efficiently as it is their full time job. Andrew Robinsons review is reasonable, one thing is for sure that damn thing is not worth $4k, the backlash of the review is from the users who spent those amounts of money who wants validation of their purchase decision. Btw its a struggle to finish this video.
As a dragon owner, I watched that video, it was pretty disappointing, the damage that you and he described during shipping was correct, but he was brutal about the sound quality....I believe it was a result of his room acoustics and days to tweak the unit to environment, your review which I watched a few months back was by far more ....or should I say less brutal but done in a way that people received useful information. Someone who watched his video would just steer clear of the dragon. It's not for everyone, but I like it and enjoy it. Thank you for ur followup.
And this is a great point, anyone watching Andrew’s channel cares about sound quality and therefore the Nakamichi would not appeal to them unless they were okay with the crossover and the doubling or tripling of the mid bass to camouflage the lack of low bass and upper bass. I have no doubt it reproduces the sound of a real theater but people who have home theaters usually dislike the sound at real theaters even if it’s the real IMAX ones with the best sound syatems because they don’t sound musical and do the same tricks.
@@techsamurai11 Theatre systems are often too loud and brash especially the Dolby Atmos experience. It's all flash with no nuance or detail. Home systems I think are also better because they're filling a much smaller space and the "dome" they create feels more localized during loud/low scenes.
@@hyperactivetendencies7054 agreed, movie theaters are horrible but that's what many people consider a home theater. For me, it's music that defines a home theater because music is in movies, games, and music and all of those spend a lot of money on soundtracks. I personally don't even have height channels in both of my living room theaters.
It is somehow comforting that comments saying I am too hard on the Dragon and comments saying I don’t understand how bad the dragon is are both getting lots of likes.
Appreciate you taking the time to bring some calm and clarity to the brew-haha that seems to have formed over AR's review coupled with the recent announcement of the 12" Sub. I enjoy your reviews and am in agreement as I approach the 1 year anniversary of receiving my Dragon. I am one of those people who wanted audiophile quality but not the cost of physical speakers in the ceiling, cost of wiring all that up, the right AVR to power it correctly, towers in the front, side surrounds on either side of the couch, was never gonna happen unless I was a bachelor. :) We get SURROUND sound in any direction, enjoyment from movies or TV series, and delight in hearing things now that my prior attempts at a sound system just didn't match what the Dragon has brought to what is now a "GREAT" Room. :) See what i did there? LOL Thanks again and I look forward to more reviews of all the various sound systems as technology continues to move forward. Cheers!!
It's really a no-brainer but to unsubscribe after your personal attacks on Andrew and questioning how long he used the Dragon. Your video was totally unnecessary.
@@neverenoughtechI bought the Sonos Arc a year ago from your review and could not be happier. I just added the mini sub to it and its IMO a gamechanger. I have been playing music my whole life, in bands, on stage and in studio. By nature I listen for whats wrong or whats missing in sound, and nothing is missing with the Arc. The Arc sings! Even for music.
With all due respect this seems to be a pathetic attempt to feed your ego for failing to point out the many shortcomings of the dragon. Why are you comparing and contrasting your review against A&K's review? dont remember mentioning you in their video. Do you think its ok for what is otherwise marketed as the ultimate sound bar system costing 4000$, to not have bluetooth or wifi? to have such a high subwoofer crossover that voices bleed through it? that dispersion is awful and atmos effects underwhelming? if you do then there's nothing more I can say to you. You are saying that other soundbars (e.g. samsung) also have some of its limitations. Is that an excuse? really? I think only the fact that they missrepresented their product as having 4 subwoofers and getting down to 20hz only to release new subwoofers after the fact, is reason enough to stop defending them.
When you played andrew through the dragon it sounded like a cheap computer speaker it was so tinny. You are confusing top end clarity with a speaker that has no midbase to get in the way.
Well I wish I had a cheap computer speaker to compare - but I don’t - I did run the Q990C and it sounded “less” in the recording but - I didn’t want to get pedantic - the main point I was trying to get across is that it does not sound like Andrew is coming from different places in the room using a binaural mic.even though his voice does span sub and soundbar. I don’t really like recording speakers for giving off total sound quality as ..well it’s obvious why that’s problematic
@@neverenoughtech No he's not but you missed the part where he said the sub can't rise to 300Hz creating a dip. I had a sub that only got to around 100Hz and surround speakers that rolled off at 200Hz when I first got into the hobby and this is exactly how it sounded. The reason is there's a dip in the overall frequency because it's not coming from either just like the Dragon exactly where the bass of a male vocal would be. Hell the Dragon rolls off so early it would be even worse than my little surround speakers. That's very high. The difference between how Andrew sounded on your video when you played his clip with and without the dragon was really noticeable. You essentially proved his argument for him. Anyone not listening on a phone will be able to tell immediately.
The point I have taken from both reviews is how good the Sonos arc actually is, being able to reach down to 70hz gives a smoother handover to the subwoofer
I subscribe to both of your channels. I actually sought out your review to compare it to Andrew's. FWIW, I did not get the impression that he only spent a few hours with it. Either way, I think it comes down to reviewer sound preference - just as high end headphone reviews often do. Some people are treble sensitive, some are not, some are bassheads, some are not. As such, I think both reviews can be honest and accurate while arriving at different conclusions.
@@888YouCantHandle I would send it back too if it came damaged, was too loud for my space, and didn't fit my preferences for sound. The thing is four thousands bucks. I guess it comes down to whether you trust Robinson to have done the work on trying to dial it in. Based on the level of detail in his reviews, I trust that he did.
Somewhere between NeverEnoughTech and Andrew's review is the truth. The deal breaker though, and I think this is true for most consumers is the size and number of components. The Dragon is ultimately a massive soundbar with massive surrounds and subs. This is defeats one of the major appeals of soundbars that is the "clean" and aesthetically pleasing looks of a soundbar.
I do find your response quite interesting. You seem to agree with most of Andrew's findings. If you are a soundbar enthusiast, Andrew and Kristi also seem to be one of the few heralding your cause. Going so far to said, " Soundbars are the future of home theater." What bothers me the most as described in both of your reviews is Nakamichi's false claim that two subs equal four. Not an exaggeration, a lie. This is truly reprehensible from a company formally known for creating the best cassette deck on the planet. I'm not a fan of former top tier companies behaving like this. Maybe they will choose a more honest path moving forward. Much smaller issues are that I don't think speaker break-in makes that much of a difference except with bass drivers. Harshness is probably coming from the mids and treble and will probably remain there unless eq'ed down. Lastly, it is nice that you give your recommendations for adjustments and tweaks that work for you, but it starting to sound like this system needs a lot of attention and has a high learning curve to optimize, which can defeat the purpose of purchasing a nice simple, easy-to-use, home theater in a box.
I own a first 500 Dragon and the public sentiment of non owners has been overall negative since launch. I find it funny that many the AR viewer comments said the dragon was “crap or junk” and “thank you for your honest review” after he published it. Then you refute some of these claims and are now wrong as well ( according to many). Many Dragon owners with years of high end A/V experience truly enjoy the total package, however when they or even myself respond we are “trying to justify” our purchase or “don’t know what good audio sounds like”. It’s laughable and it seems the Dragon is always going to face an uphill battle. I am happy with my unit and will continue to enjoy it for what it is, and yes I have had many high end systems to know what I am listening to. The Dragon isn’t perfect ( what truly is?) , but for an all in one wireless plug and play solution it’s a very good experience in our home. Flame suit on!
I'm an August 2023 release owner and I totally agree with your post. You can micro analyze most anythings specs and come to the conclusion that it's a POS. The Dragon is a total beast of a system and has amazing sound. I'm watching the 4K UHD version of Dunkirk in DTS-HD MA and it sounds like I'm right in the middle of the action. The Dragon components work very well together even with any flaws that are found in its specs or output levels. Also, the 8" subs work very well with the unit too. I only have one 8" sub active in each sub enclosure and they still have massive output. I'm so glad I purchased the Dragon and don't have any regrets. The Dragon might not be for everyone and there are many home theater options out there for purchase. Happy listening everyone!
Golf clap!!! Look who makes up the majority of dragon videos.. non dragon owning 🤡who never experienced it. Overwhelming positive vibes from actual owners.
I agree with you I appreciate Andrew’s reviews generally but sometimes he can trash a product that’s perfectly fine, im still recovering from his Sonos Sub Mini Review, he said about Dialogue coming out of the sub and they labelled it as trash, I have the Sub Mini in a standard uk size living room paired with the Arc, I think this pairing is excellent and the base quality and is great
I can wholeheartedly appreciate content like this. You respect Andrew, clearly, and I think it is good to have these discussions on YT publicly, especially as the large ones are under continuous pressure to produce volume and maintain their income stream. I hope you and AR can share some knowledge on the technical review part and become even better. I love your channel that brings humor and high-quality reviews. Please keep up the hard work!
I wouid like to add that Andrew Robinson never said that the bass release were due to his video. In fact, in last Friday's live stream, he reitrated that it would have been impossible for them to have had them planned/produced due to his video. I would recommend that you watch his follow-up video. FYI, I'm just a person that follows Andrew Robinson, so this is just my opinion.
The problem with your conclusion is the reason people buy soundbars. They buy them for easy setup and use. They don't want to have to fiddle and tweak. People that want to do that get traditional home theater setups.
Not everyone wants something dumbed down that much. The JBL 9.1 is a good example. Mere preset EQs with no way to personalize the sound further to my liking. Such a waste.
Second this. As a renter, cutting holes and running wires is not as conducive as setting up a powerful fully wireless surround system. I have the Q990C and have maxed out just about every tuning option possible, including adding a 12” sub along with the Samsung sub. 🎉 yes, it can be done safely. 🎉
Also, I think saying that they should have let the soundbar play noise for 48 hours is like, ludicrous for a 4 thousand dollar soundbar. Plus if you needed that to get top tier sound Andrew would mention break in periods for their multi thousand dollar top tier reviews, like come on.
Not new here, nor Andrew's review. His channel has been more Hi-fi friendly but soundbar. Also, I don' t have these Dragonation system nor interested in them. OK, my point is, Andrew's "Soundbar" review just with his niche taste, if you have followed him long enough. Welcome to rewatch his Sonos Beam 2 and later on Sonos Arc series. TIPS: They have said, Sonos doesn't respond emails so no way to get FREE products to test and they did willingly send those products back. BUT, they bought Sonos Beam 2 to give a give a Sh*t review tho.
Price point and ease of setup are the key issues for me. So is the ability to build the system out over time (helps you to avoid confronting the actual cost of your system). Except for special cases, I think there is a price point where sound bar systems just don’t make much sense for most people. Especially if they are not easy to setup. Nakamichi is at that tipping point, especially if you add in a couple of the 12” subs. The $5,000 cost of the Dragon with the big subs can get you a pretty nice wired system that will play movies and music very well. I was at an SVS event recently and it was clear that one focus of the company is a couple of full range front channels that would be very comfortable doing 2 channel sound along with a center channel and a pair of rear surrounds. This is compelling, particularly given the time needed to get the Dragon properly setup. And such a system would be more versatile than the Dragon. I just don’t see sound bar systems doing music that well and, once you get past a certain price point, I want a system that can do both.
What an interesting bit of drama. I'm personally very happy with the dragon. I use it as the system for my master bedroom where I simply can't run wires all over the place. I just watched District 9 last night and my wife even commented on how well the sounds from the rear speakers tracked overhead. That is completely dependant on your room configuration as it is for all upfiring driver systems. I think it sounds great for the price and for a soundbar in general. It absolutely beats every other soundbar system I've ever heard and I've listened to all the top contenders from Samsung to Sennheiser. Can it compete with my home theater system in which every single speaker costs more than the entire dragon system? No. Is it absolutely awesome for my needs in the space that I have available? Yes. Perhaps what we're seeing is a group of people who have to push their budgets to afford the dragon and expect it to be more than what it is because that is a lot of money to them? That being said, I do agree that the hype from the brand is over the top. The subs aren't great but they do the job well enough. I'll be getting a pair of the 12's and adding them for some more low end punch but I'm not going to expect them to hit like a JTR captivator or JL audio gotham. Lets face it, $4000 isnt really much money in the home theater game. In fact, its peanuts for a whole system.
@@neverenoughtech Go big or go home, right? I can't wait to hear your review for the 12 inch subs. I've already gotten them signed off on by the wife (she almost never says no) so I'm just waiting to hear some reviews before ordering.
Thanks for the "review reaction!" I hope you are starting a new trend! I have a 14x18 (9ft ceiling) space that I'm dedicating to a theater/game room. I'm torn between the Samsung Q990D Sonos Arc (2x Era-300,1xArc Bar,1xsub) Sony Bravia Quad + Sub. Any advice would be welcome!
I was initially really tempted by the Dragon, but ultimately went with the Sony Quad and have been really happy with that decision. Thanks for the in-depth coverage on both systems.
First time viewer here of your channel. Im a little confused with the purpose of this video. Is it to review the product of Nakamichi or to review the product (video review) of Andrew R? I am a subscriber of ARs channel and I have even made a couple of purchases for my personal setup based partly on his (and Kristi's ) reviews. I will be following your content and reviews going forward because having more information and perspectives available to pull from allows for more informed decision making. All in all, you seem to be well on your way to growing your subscriber base and in time, imagine your content and channel will stand on its own alongside the likes of AR and other reviewers/channels in RU-vid land.
My favorite reviewer for this space. The content is articulated extremely well and you can feel the effort put forth in each video. As a dragon owner definitely felt after the AR video everyone who seemed perfectly happy took a 180 so appreciate your thoughts as well! Looking forward to the sub review! Any potential timeline for when it might be out?
Great reaction video. I am a Dragon owner, one of the first 500 units, and I absolutely love mine. I watched both you and Andrew's reviews and this reaction video. I agree with a lot of what you say here about the system. I was impressed with Calebs video from CES 2023 which is why I preordered my unit in April 2023 when they were first offered. I bought it to replace my Bose 900 Soundbar, two surround speakers and two subwoofers which was still pretty pricey itself since you had to buy the surrounds and subwoofers separately from the soundbar. The Dragon was offering a lot more than I had and I have been impressed with its performance. Is it perfect? No. Am I upset that Nakamichi is now pushing the 12" subs instead of the 8" subs? No. Most of us that bought the first systems stated that it would probably be better to have had larger subs. But that being said, I don't know what all the complaining is about. I am probably Nakamichi's perfect customer because I bought my unit, love my unit and am happy with it. And I will be even more happy when I get a 12" sub or maybe even two, to add to the two 8" that came with the unit, but TBH, two would probably be too much for the room I have. I understand my Dragon's shortcomings and I am ok with them. Someday I may want to replace it with another system but for now I enjoy the 6 up-firing Atmos speakers as in my room with my flat ceiling, I get really good bounce of overhead effects. I am also not a big music buff so I'm not that picky about how it sounds with music like some have complained. I compare buying my Dragon to buying my 2012 CTS-V Coupe last summer. Only gets 14.8 MPG around town but has a 556HP supercharged 6.2-liter V8 engine. With that engine, I can overlook a few other issues. Same with my Dragon. With 3000w, I can overlook some of the smaller issues. For me, none of the issues with the Dragon are a "deal breaker". I haven't seen a product yet that hasn't had those that love it and those that don't. But that's exactly why there are SO many products out there. There is no perfect product. The world is full of compromises, and it just depends on where you fall on that line and what you are willing to compromise. So many people are ready to jump on the complaint bandwagon that probably never would have bought a Dragon in the first place, so I don't understand the hate. Don't think the Dragon is a great system? Simply don't buy one.
NE Thanks for commenting on Andrew’s video. The thing that bothers me is that you casually point out that the Dragon does not do a great job in reproducing pre 2000 music. I and many other “old foggies” still listen to that music quite a lot. So you’ve given another reason not to invest in a system that can’t even properly replicate music produced in a fifty year period. Let’s face it, it’s maybe great for watching movies, but a huge disappointment music wise for anyone a little older than you. For nearly $4000, you think it could do better than that! Thankfully for that money, my Sonos system does both!
I’m born in the 80s - I was in highschool in the 90s - 50% people say listening to music on a soundbar is stupid the other 50% very passionate. I reiterated that the quality experiences on this system are over HDMI /3D. Use those constraints and there will be some notable experiences even before 2000 - that’s my observation. I believe it’s very similar to my initial review
@@neverenoughtech Thanks for your reply. I have an Arc, two Fives, two SubGen 3s and two Era 100s. I actually have the Fives in a cabinet below the Arc. I agree an Arc alone doesn’t cut it for music. But with the other speakers I have, older music always sounds great. I admit I don’t care that much about movie sound. If I did I probably would get Era 300s. Maybe I will someday, but holding off because of the current app fiasco. My current system cost is right around the cost of the Dragon. To sum it up, I’d rather have much better music sound. I’ll give up the slightly less bombastic sound I won’t get on my system, although two SubGen 3s are not too shabby!🤣 I’m not going to have two separate systems in my family room. My wife wouldn’t stand for it.😁 One system needs to do both movies and music at a high level The Dragon doesn’t do that.
I've stated I think the Dragon has a narrow case ('dead last for many') so a lot of people are gonna skip on it. If you're highly valuing music that's gonna make the case much harder. I have I think 40 sonos components though I'm a little miffed at the company right now with the app. I use Sonos everywhere but where I test mainly in the basement. And maybe you got this but foggey music is code for generally superior music. This is for those that maybe are not familiar with my mysterious code language. The largest cohort viewer is in their 40s and skews older than 40 not younger so I'm not really speaking to GenZ so much, but rather those that were legally adults before Y2K
My only question is are you being paid by Nakamichi, or just looking for more subs by calling out a better channel? You come across as an amature looking to get views. The Nakamichi is expensive and not high quality. You as much as admit this, but still pump up the crappy bar. Your arguments are inconsistent. Your “measurements” prove some of Andrew’s points. Unsure how you post this and feel like you might have any integrity left.
So according to you no two people are ever allowed to disagree with each other about one or a few things? He stated he didn’t disagree with everything and took the time to point out which ones
Excellent video and as always very informative. I’ve had my N.D. about 3 weeks now and am still giddy about having it. My better half instantly recognized (heard) something new when we were watching a Netflix show, and she could care less about audio/video. I am really enjoying it with my kiddos on the Xbox, Forza and Halo have never been so fun when we’re couch co-oping. They keep asking me to play that plane demo and I’m happy to. Music is a lot of fun to listen to. That said I am curious about those new subs and am wondering how I can hide those in our living room without you know who noticing LOL 😊
At this price point, i expect a lot more than the Dragon is delivering. Despite having been in both the home and professional audio field, I spent over 15 hours on three separate days helping someone try to fine tune their Dragon, and at no time did the sound envelope come close to the Q990C the Dragon was to replace. Is it loud? Oh yeah. Is it precise? Not so much.
@@MrBjorn6I heard what I heard and I stand by it. The processing on the Dragon is marginally better than the Nakamichi Shockwafe Ultra, but that's not saying much. You're talking about a name owned by a Chinese holding company, not the company that made the world class tape decks. On the other hand, you have Samsung, who owns Harman International, the parent company of some of the biggest hitters in audio, like JBL, Mark Levinson and Arcam. Who do you think has the upper hand in audio experience? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's not the Chinese holding company.
I'm finding the idea of "letting your ears acclimate to the sound system" dubious, especially with "the Dragon requiring more 'maturation' than most any other system". Outside of the debate regarding break-in, it seems like a good sounding system should just sound... good. Not require some special sort of "acquired taste" that this one system seems "especially sensitive to" needing more than almost any other. Especially if one is already an experienced audio reviewer like both Dan and Andrew are. What's the difference between that and just convincing yourself you're happy with an overpriced product with objective issues? It's totally possible to "get used to" bad or lacking sound, and even end up "liking" it, especially if you have another non-sound-related incentive. Why should the Dragon get special allowance or treatment here? If it's "especially sensitive" compared to the field, it might just be especially problematic. I know the Dragon makes a big impression on less experienced listeners-- because it's clear and it's loud. It's big and "cinematic" enough to the less discerning. But why should someone like Andrew and NeverEnoughTech "get used to it" to review it properly?
They also say that about calibrated modes on tvs - you'll get used to it. I switched my TV to the calibrated mode for Harry Potter and my teenage daughter commented that Harry looked sick 🙂 Sure, you get used to it but it doesn't mean it looks good. Same with sound - you can get used to the Nakamichi sound but it doesn't mean it's sounding the way it should.
@@techsamurai11 I thought about this comparison already, but that's actually a bit different. Cinema/Filmmaker modes are all similarly calibrated to something close to D65 white point-- a production standard. It just happens to be warmer and yellower than what some people are "used to"-- overly cold, blue-ish Vivid and Standard modes designed to pop under fluorescent lighting at Walmart, lighting conditions no one actually watches their TV in. Your eyes actually do adjust after a day or two-- and what seemed yellow do start to look white again. It's a pretty well understood color perception phenomenon. I didn't believe or understand it at first, but it really does work, and there's an objective science, standard, and measurements around it. We were actually used to something *bad*, and having your eyes adjust to a common industry standard is UNDOING the "acclimation" to worse or less accurate quality. It does start to look better, because instead of only judging by brightness conveyed by blue-ness, the calibrated modes are actually more accurate and allow better reproduction of actual skin tones and what not-- if you let your brain adjust to the new color temperature. Now if the Dragon were a TV, it'd be more like asking experienced Videophiles to acclimate to it's special too-bright, too-cold calibration particular to one TV model because it was somehow "more sensitive" to maturity.
@Taylor - this bar makes different choices and will sound a bit foreign at the start. This alone does not mean it’s good or bad. In my experience because I never intended to return the thing good or bad (“I’m not in a normal position”) - I could interact with it in a less passionate way than most … my observation was - lacking the auto tuning stuff for the room and content like Samsung has - I became familiar with the levers (fluidity with system) so that I could more easily optimize the sound to the context. A completely appropriate reaction is that’s too much work - which is why I said it probably is dead last for a large swath of soundbar buyers. But its the right kind of splurge for some who want yes a thrill but I’d subjectively argue something more than that too
@@neverenoughtech Thanks for explaining your thought process. I guess the question would necessarily be-- why does the bar make choices that seem a bit foreign? Are they actually choices or limitations of the hardware, such as the documented roll off gap? And if they indeed are choices, are they thoughtful ones or heavy handed ones to get the most "impact" from less discerning listeners? Would we consider these to be valid, informed choices, or would they be clumsy, amateurish ones compared to systems and expectations in that price range? And should this specific bar be treated so charitably with the expectation that the owner grow to like them, if some of these choices might be due hardware limitations or because they are questionable ones, even in part? I know it's all subjective in the end, but what is this hobby but passion and expectations, grounded by some objective validation (like the fact that this is a .2 not a .4 system for starters, heh), all framed around a value proposition? :)
I like the idea of a soundbar and I have a Polk react with subwoofer and surround speakers. I also have a 6.2 surround system (it's setup with a rear center channel on my Sony str-dn 1020) But my biggest problem with soundbars is the compact sounding front. You can tell that all the sound is coming from the soundbar with no real front left and right sound. With a proper system the left and right front sesperation sounds a whole lot better. Soundbar manufacturers should make an affordable system with five speakers. The center would be a mini size doundbar with four small polk react size surround speakers. Or give us the option to add two of those small speakers to the front sound with soundbar to add to stereo separation. I would love to add two more of the polk surround speakers to the front sound of my Polk react system. I know there's the Sony A9 and the Sony carpet samples but that system is far from affordable for most people. My brother in law has the Samsung q990b and I could tell that all the front sound is coming from the soundbar even with those side firing speakers it didn't make the stereo separation any better.
The comment about breaking it in for 48 hours is ridiculous. It's soundbar which is bought for convenience. It should be plug and play not have to warm up.
Well it probably doesn’t require 48 hours to start enjoying as a customer, but if you’re gonna review and give an opinion - best if you’re not reviewing the first sound that comes out of the thing because that’s not the most accurate representation of the product
Nope. Hard disagree, Charles. Any speaker (especially full range and subwoofers) which rely on cone movement have a break-in period. Be it a Sonos arc or a bookshelf speaker. there is a break-in period to unlock the final few % of audio performance.
Honestly I lost some respect for this channel at the break in BS. Like it's gonna sound better after breaking in. You can't be judging FR without any equipment simultaneously arguing for break-in. The break in is needed when you don't like the sound coming out of a $4500 sound bar.
Explain why I can’t say I think it sounds better after being broken in? I’m not catching the logic and how it connects to his measurements. I do think that there is reasonable evidence from ARs graph, my measurements, and Caleb’s that the major roll off (if that’s what you’re talking about) occurs closer to 160 than 300hz.
@@neverenoughtechI'm fairly certain he never does this and tries to live with the soundbars for a month or so before posting a review. Just because he has a first impressions segment doesn't mean that's what everything is tested with.
If you spend enough time becoming acclimated to a system, it becomes much easier to no longer recognize the mountain of sonic shit being spewed out of it. While we’re on the topic of mountains of shit, let’s not just brush right over the countless lies and half-truths used by Nakamichi’s marketing team. The company is a disgrace.
Your channels simply the best channel for any of this technology review and I super appreciate it. I was waiting for diss track when I saw the title of this, but that didn’t come so I’m a little disappointed anyway thanks for the review.
I’m reallly glad you made this video. I really like andrew’s channel, I’ve been subscribed about 4 years to him. I don’t think he honestly even tried to make a thorough review. I commented that he didn’t even talk about rotating the height drivers to improve the overhead effects, and he gave a reply in which he was obviously annoyed that I suggested such. I mean, he never talked about how the bar sounded before and after the many adjustments you can make on the dragon. It’s like he didn’t want to try and make it sound as well as he could. It feels like he obviously had an axe to grind.
Great video. I've gained a lot from the videos and reviews from both channels. Sound can be very subjective so it's really valuable to have different takes. In the end I lean towards agreeing with Andrew's overall conclusion. I agree with your point about diminished returns and costs etc... though I think the argument is from some perspectives it's a one trick pony and at that price you expect it to be like a top performer in nearly everything. Not necessarily best in everything, but far fewer flaws and weaknesses and including the hardware quality for the price. Also the idea that the Dragon requires so much time and configuring to get more out of it really plays hard against the whole idea of a sound bar, even one at this price. It's really hard to then argue not just go a custom system where your ceiling of tweaking and configuring to get more gains is even higher. I get there's a narrow intersection where the Dragon makes sense, but I think as a product it kind of is a massive missed opportunity. To be king of the sound bars I think it NEEDS to be more versatile and easier to get the most out of it.
I think some auto room correction is a notable miss on this system. But even with the tweaking that can happen over time - if you’re not reviewing - I still think there is a big distinction in space taken - with left and right channels, wire routing, and receivers.
@@neverenoughtechYou might've already seen this... Though this follow up video from Andrew was insightful... ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-zp4JZK0l_ps.html He seems to suggest he tested it for at least about two weeks, tested it side by side against other systems etc. Not sure how many hours etc put into it but I think your concern (which I think was valid without further context from that initial review video) about him probably not putting enough time on it for the sound to mature a bit might not be correct.
He returned it right away. Before he admitted this one could tell by his claims. It is a amazing device that gets better with tweaking and time as actual owners know.
@@888YouCantHandle Where's your source for "right away". In the video linked in my post he says he tested it over about two weeks. He confirmed he did end up getting rid of it, though like most people who review many different products they never keep everything and he pointed out if they were to keep it they would've returned it for one that wasn't damaged anyways.
you've gained nothing at all but these reviewers did for sure, by increasing their viewership and TRP milage which directly gets converted to monetary benefit so they can keep buying and enjoying expensive A/V gears at tge expense of your viewing, liking and subscribing.
Great response. I agree that the Dragon is not for everyone. My TV is in a large room. I'm retired so I have the time and inclination to fine tune it. I have a good income and I don't have a wife so the cost is not an issue. I think I am their target audience. I'm looking forward to your review of the 12" subs.
Really glad you put this video out. It shows your passion and integrity for what you do. Andrew made some surprising claims, and it's great to hear your viewpoint in comparison, because (quite honestly) it was YOUR review in my memory that I was constantly comparing Andrew's comments to. I found it odd that there was such disparity, and especially his claims about a sharp 300hz rolloff (which, objectively, would be horrific if true). You address that well, here. I think, due to his much wider reach, his review was important for the community (to indicate that the Dragon isn't all roses), but your take is much more nuanced and likely to be accurate. Sight unseen, ears unheard, I have a hard time believing that (just based on the physical configuration of the Dragon's components) it would ever truly be "last" among its peers, providing someone has spent enough time setting it up correctly.
