Tom. You do all a great service with these tests. The most important factor should be float position (I would argue that this should include self righting). I don’t think that I would want any of these if they don’t get my face out of the water quickly, with no help from me. An inflation while unconscious that leaves me face down in the water cannot be acceptable. In each test you did not appear to wait to see if the device would right you unassisted. Sorry for the critical response and thanks again for doing this.
No need to be sorry dude. Legit criticism. I went into the test planning to test that (and I did a little) but I honestly didn't realize how unsettling it would be to be under water with that motor on my back. A few times I just instinctively reached for the harness release. The Agama was probably the best at holding your head up no matter what (based on the fact that I was the tightest around my neck)
Gotcha, and thanks for that. The whole series of tests was very well done but pretty unsettling in the results. I don’t know about you or others, but I will need to do some serious research on the subject. This was a real eye opener! Well done!
@@angeredBee I was coming down here to mention this very concern in the comments. It seems that each of the designs was stable, in the face down orientation. Getting your mouth and nose out of the water involved effort, which may be hampered by unconsciousness, or being tangled in lines. It seems like a U shape, with an additional inflation near the pilot's belly button, would be safer.
As I mentioned on the show last night, I applaud this video and the safety focus. As a former US Naval Aircremam I’ve had some experience testing equipment and practicing skills in the water. I appreciate you doing that in the name of safety. I too would want flotation that would consistently without help get my face out of the water in case I were unconscious. Preserving life is #1, everything else is secondary at best. Thanks again. -Jim
Hell yea Tom, I watched every minute of it. Definitely one of my favorite PPG videos and I'd like to see more stuff like this. I've always flown with the standard automatic boat PFDs which I'm glad to see work well - I recently used it on the island I flew to. Problem is, I had a backpack on top of it. No telling how good it would have done me but I thought maybe there is enough room under this backpack for it to inflate.... sometimes maybe's not enough so I'll probably be looking at getting one of the PPG Smoke units which would work no matter the gear I carry. I still think I'd wear self flotation and motor flotation at the same time so I could personally float and so could my motor if I detached from it. Thanks for the video PS for big water missions I used to wear the auto inflating life jacket and also wear a waist mounted one. The idea was, if I landed in water, I could take the waist belt one off and connect it somewhere random to the motor so my motor could float and so could I. Reason behind that for me was cost savings. Those two PFDs are less than one paramotor PFD. Not saying it's the right answer but it was my answer.
It's all about keeping you safe. It's definitely good to see some other products are out there but we have really specific mounting use cases. The team is working on a SHAPED U float... the design is indicative of keeping the floatation above your shoulders.
I just watched the Power2Float u-shape portion of the video. I do free flight over a lake with a boat/winch a lot. We use PFDs that have the same design. That particular failure, where only one side inflates well and the back center doesn't expand, is really common with the u-shape design PFDs. For a motor, I think the double design is a far better choice.
We are working on a variant now that uses super lightweight alternative Dacron material (incredibly company out of British Columbia) and 100g co2 with a shaped bladder for assisting with head out of water. One thing we have been exploring the idea of us a dual 50g co2 system with separate left and right inflation points. Single bladder, but two chambers. There are some trade offs here but, certainly worth testing.
@@rrobets1983 I would love to see a test with the ppgmoke floats mounted in different locations. Tom had them mounted really high on his shoulders. However I have been putting mine in front me on the shoulder straps so they aren't bent when I pick up the motor. I'd like to know how they work when mounted to the frame as well. It would be awesome to have a nice comparison on how well different locations work and to see the dynamics of how mounting position affects float position.
Great video Tom. The danger of a PPG water landing is so serious, I cannot believe there is not more emphasis on this subject. Like many PPG pilots, I bought the flotation, strapped it on, and assumed I would be 100% fine in the event of a water landing. This video brought to light so many more variables in this situation, such as the flotation of your fuel tank trying to turn you upside down in the water. Seeing you underwater struggling to get out of the harness and trying to picture myself in a water landing really gave me a lot to think about. I think that before I attempt any more over-water flying, I need to do some kind of simulation training like this to test how my flotation will react and how I will exit the harness. Thank you for making this video, I think every PPG pilot could benefit from watching this and considering his/her flotation equipment and emergency strategy.
Definitely check over your equipment and don't be scared to test it by throwing in water or manually inflating. A recharge kit is a lot less expensive than a funeral.
Another thing to consider is, if you are wearing bulky warm clothes. Then it will be hard to wriggle through the straps. As some one said. Don't fly over areas where you can't land. You always have to assume that the engine might fail. JD
Tom, I was literally holding my breath with you each and every plunge! I grew up as a swimmer and on the beach. I completely understand the risks and possibilities of drowning. For your testing, it was a bit uneasy to see NOBODY in the water with you during your testing, especially after seeing you struggle to get out of the "easy release" harness. Only a couple of guys leisurely on the deck. Anyway, I think you did a GREAT job and it was a well thought out test. I'm glad someone did a comparison on these. I have the Agama and would have like to see it tested with the device "fully" strapped to the cage as I have it. I don't think people will want to install it to the harness straps due to the flotation material in their face while flying. Still it gives me comfort to see it receive high scoring. Even higher for me due to I purchased it at a much lower price, driving the value points up. Thanks again and bee safe! P.S. That Black Widow was a sign for the test that was just done?...Hmmm...
Great vid! Awesome to see the flotation in action! We do this training too down here in S. FL. We also attach to an old wing and have two guys drop the wing right over you when you hit the water to simulate getting free of the lines and wing. It's scary how many pilots in the training panic and get all tangled up in the lines. Also wear a helmet with a camera mount on it. Major cause of lines snagged so we train on ditching the helmet also.
Maybe we revisit in the future and do another round of comparisons in a deeper pool with an old wing in the mix some how... would be interesting to see.
Really great video Tom. Thanks for the great info. I would like to point out a secondary device that will go a long way towards surviving a water landing. I live in north central Florida and from the sky it looks like there is more water below than land. I see water landings as a safe alternative to landing on the ground if there are no good ground landings areas. I am a novice PPG pilot but I was the junior medic on a Special Forces A Team and as a scout swimmer we made several water jumps. We wore dry suits that kept us afloat (until you bled the air out and then you got shrink wrapped) and we were wearing a lot of gear similar to the weight of a paramotor unit. In addition, I was a career firefighter and on a water rescue team. I always wear a SAR designed life vest when flying my trike for a couple of reasons. Worse case, I release myself form the trike and float on my own. Fortunately here in this area all the lakes are mostly only 10 ft deep so the wing should stay on the surface to mark the location of my paramotor. I do plan on attaching a flotation device to my trike so this video is invaluable for me. But the life jacket gives me additional protection. For one, it has pockets. I carry a tourniquet, a small high powered flash/strobe light, a whistle, a small air horn, and my radios clip to the front snaps. My GoPro floating handle slides down inside the front snaps and point forward or up and is easy to access for hand use. More importantly, the jacket surrounds my rib cage with 1 inch of sturdy foam (like a ski jacket) and serves to protect me if I am forced to make a tree landing. Lots of forests here. It protects my vital organs in my upper body from blunt trauma. Here is the jacket I use. Google - "Kent SAR- Search and Rescue Commercial Life Vest." I'm sure there are others but so far I like it a lot. It can be hot wearing it on the ground in summer but it gives me added confidence when flying over water.
tom its great that someone took the time to really look at dangers of water landings i hope all your supplyers watch this to see how there produce rates good job ....👍🏻happy flying 🤗🇦🇺
Ok, to be honest, low time pilot here, and of the devices shown, performing as shown.. the personal flotation device is the only one I'd be comfortable with. It was the only one shown to auto right - and when you disconnected, it stayed with you. In a water landing.. as far as I'm concerned, the pilot is the paramount concern. motor is already wet. F-it, get a boat and come back for it. I'd not want for me (or a friend) to end up in a situation where my motor - was - my flotation device, especially if injured or unconscious.
Hi Tom, have I missed your new intro sequence. Sweet. Thank you for taking the time to look into all this. I know the time and effort it takes to put basic video together. This was a serious work of passion for our sport. Good video. I'm sure it will be a very well referenced video for all students. Thank you.
That was extremely useful and beneficial to everyone. You get an amazingly large amount of positive karma points for that video in my opinion. So just to understand, the first one you tested was the best?
Great test. One thing about aviation that I have ingrained after 30 years, survival is more important than the thousands you spend on equipment. If the minimalist PFD allows the pilot to survive, that is precisely all that is required of the equipment. Thanks again for the great content.
Great video! Thank you for doing this! I'm just getting into PPG and plan to get flotation since I have a lot of water in my area. These tests are gonna help me make a good choice now.
Thank you for an excellent quality video. This is a much watch for every PPG pilot. Well done. I was happy to see the 2BSure work since that is what I have though I have no plans to fly over or upwind of water ever.
Quick release is paramount! If i can't get out in one second then it takes to long! I would not want flotation until I was away and clear. Once clear a personal flotation device would be nice but depending on how far I might be swimming, I would probably ditch it along with my shoes and clothes. The air trapped in the wing will keep the motor from sinking to far. Being knocked out on impact ? I noticed a very high probability from watching your tests that my face will stay submerged.THANK YOU FOR THE DEMONSTRATION.
Your empty fuel tank gave you extra buoyancy that may or may not be the case in a real life scenario depending on how much fuel was in the tank. Kudos to Kubat for doing some experiments to gain insight. No one is going to dunk thier 350 dollar PowerFloats just to test them. It is good to see how each of them deploy.
Chris, let me know if you are interested in purchasing ours you can reach out to me at ppgsmoke at gmail dot com and i'll help you navigate options on market.
Big thanks for doing this research Tom its great to see how these work and to know what options are out there for water saving devices. I'm no where near water yet, but will certainly use this for my buying decisions when I might be anywhere near large water sources.
I've briefly heard others in videos speak of flotation. To go to the extreme like you did and jump in to test them-awesome. I thought you made a really good video and showed real life scenario. Great job. Subscribed.
Great video and loved testing methods. I would like to see the difference between mounting the 2 top models to the net/frame, versus the proper way of mounting to the straps. Many still hook it to the frame on either side of them. This, would most likely, move them towards a face-down position, but it would be nice to see. Also, I believe we have been misled about drowning being the leading cause of death in paramotoring. I have been watching the sport for over 3 years and doing it for 2 years. I have heard of only one water death so far out of at least 10 deaths. Not that flying over/near water isn't dangerous. I believe you should, and I do, wear flotation during those times. It seems most of the deaths are dry land and pilot error.
Awesome video, a true public service. Thank you for doing this to educate us and help us make decisions. I probably would have scored PPG Smoke quality as a 1 based on the initial issue with the bad o-ring. I know they made good on it, but I really have to question their internal QA process if it was able to get out the door like that in the first place. It was a defect that defeated the whole point of the product with possibly fatal consequences. It would be like Ozone shipping a glider with the knot's not secured properly. Glad you did the video and left the good, bad and ugly in for us to see for ourselves and make our own conclusions. Thanks :)
Great video, very thorough. Yeah it's amazing how nervous you can get even in a controlled environment, and expecting it. You even had a grading rubric! You must be an engineer 😄. Glad to see the PPG smoke did well since that's what my instructor sold me.
Thanks for this video, very informative . I realize that I actually never saw a water landing or flotation device in action. Glad to know how it can and cannot works like it should. I was actually surprise to see some failed like they did. How many pilots are still flying with the defective device, not knowing that there is a legit problem and thinking that they are totally safe because wearing a flotation device ??! It is kind of scary but good to know how your flotation system can failed from a wrong instalation on the harness or frame. Does those devices comes with specific setup instruction? Great job for the topic and the edit 👍👍👍
Overall, an informative video. I noticed your harness was very loose in each test and the first flotation device was not cinched down tight to your body. It's clear that some thought must go into precisely where to mount these devices for best balance/flotation. I learned a lot. Thanks! Afterthought: It's clear too that one might want TWO devices: one for your paramotor and one for yourself.
On the shoulder strap mounting scenario it's important they are tight to a point. The looser they are the lower in the water you are going to float. The extra 3-4 inches really makes a difference but I know some pilots don't like to have them tight while they are flying.
Very well produced video Tom. An eye opener for sure! How does the U shaped inflation devices restrict the reserve from pulling out of the shoulder straps? The few seconds you were in the water, i felt myself tensing up! Should be part of the training to experience it, or on a SIV course!
Awesome review Tom! I was looking forward to seeing it since you mentioned it. Thank you very much. Pretty surprised nobody else has tested floatation units on water and run through different scenarios. The only thing additional I'm curious about is with the option to mount the 2bsure to the frame. When I reached out to the manufacturer they recommended frame mount vs shoulder straps.
Put my paramotor in the river tonight! I would have died if I didn't have a PPG smoke float system, if you fly around water you need one of these float systems! Thanks for the vid Tom you saved my life!
Water temperature and currents are very important parts of the equation too. The colder the water the faster your body heat will be pulled away from you and your muscles strength will diminish very fast too. It doesn’t have to be near freezing for the water temperature to affect your ability tread water or fight under tow and currents, making it all the more important to wear a flotation device.
Thanks for posting this! I didn't want to have to do it myself ha ha! On the powerfloat, I have learned (with reserve handle) that velcro, after a long while, can become "super seated" requiring a lot of torque to separate. It's probably a good idea to pull it apart every once in a while. I do with my reserve handle etc.
Finally got around to watching this. Cool idea comparing the options. Eric and David rock. I still owe David a bottle of super glue next time I visit. Let's fly soon.
Excellent and informative video. The first Life Vest did what I believe is most important, rotate your head and chest up out of the water. Swimming in the harness is not realistic as getting out and swimming away is more important. The second example I felt was not ideal...my opinion is the effort it appears you had to make to get rotated on your back before it performed as design. The issue is how would it perform in Wave Action...is it more prone to keep you head down and making the pilot exert more energy to keep their head out of water? Your last example worked well and I thought it was more prone to rotate the pilot heads up more than the others. Things to consider for future testing. 1. Wind Drag - Pilot being dragged by wind under a reserve and or wing. Does the flotation keep them heads up while the pilot egresses from the harness? 2. Wave Action / Current...How does this effect those same Life Saving Units you Demonstrated. 3. Sea Anchor effect...If a pilot is in a Ocean Environment or Surf they do not want to be swimming and or floating in their unit. Wave and strong currents can drag a pilot with flotation underwater or keep them heads down unable to roll on their back. A wing or reserve can produce extreme forces that you can not control and you will find yourself in a life threatening environment when seconds before you thought you were OK. Your pool Demo was very well done, but we should keep this in mind as well when flying over open water or surf. 4. Fuel in the gas tank is not always a bad thing except the water around you can cause burning to the eyes or skin. Fuel is lighter than water...therefore it will provide additional flotation until it is displaced by water or sea water. 5. Cut Knife...last thing you want to do is survive a water landing only to drown due to entanglement with the Suspension Lines of the wing/reserve. You want to back away from the wing/reserve while fanning the lines and material in front of you or more importantly in the direction mother nature is taking them and you can cut lines as required to clear any entanglements. Hopefully you have a life preserver on as well and not just on your unit until you can swim away cleanly. 6. I've done some water survival training over a 25 year period in a former job with the US Government. Spar Air is something I fly with when hanging out over water. Small bottle gives me 10 minutes of air if I skip breath which is more than enough time to get free. Excellent Video...wish more safety video's with the Scott or other harness was demonstrated for comparisons on harness safety. Quick Release is by far the best method.
Some observations: It would seem that kicking to right yourself would increase the possibility of line twist around an ankle. The standard boat version flipped you face up immediately, but rode up too high on your neck. Do they make these with leg straps? Good point that your paramotor is going to sink once you're out. Powerfloat 2Bsure started you out face down. You had to kick your way face up. PPG Smoke same issue. It looks like it kept you at the surface, but you had to deliberately flip face up. Powerfloat U. Yes, it inflated very poorly, but even inflated, it appears that it was much harder to kick face up. Agama seemed to require a lot less kicking to right yourself. Thank you for doing these tests!
Really informative and useful - as much as anything else in terms of understanding what ditching would be like, i.e., pilot positioning / issues / aftermath once in the water etc. Thanks for these important safety tips. I suppose one should add: tempting though it might be, think very carefully about flying over water at all... is it really worth the risks? Anyway - thanks again
fabulous insight and another great ambassador for the sport! 1 observation with the PFD ...did it have a under leg crotch strap? ...think theres definitely room for design improvement based on harness / frame fittment but its a much welcomed sart.... always fly safe
Good job bud, i have been scuba diving for years and instructing don’t know why they don’t make the straps on your para motor like a BCD where they can break so you can get out easy, just a thought, think scuba gear comes in around the same weight maybe heavier depending on set up, Twin set ECT but enjoyed your video
Here is something few people consider. Cold shock. Virtually everyone will have less than 15 seconds of breath hold when they are immersed in cold water. Some people inhale by reflex as soon as they go in. Try this if you don't believe it. Take several breaths and then turn the cold water on the shower on. Even this less intense cold shock will have your breath hold drop below 15 seconds. If you practice you might get it up to 40 seconds. Not a lot of time.
Next test should be the scout on your back. You and I both fly this and I am curious to see how the carbon fiber floats and the difficulty of escaping the harness
Hey Tom,,Would you consider doing a DOUBLE secure test? Personal flotation device like you used for general boating and then the #1 rated in your test together. This way you have double back up, but also can leave the motor and still have floatation to swim with to safety? Just a thought. If you need help with cost, I will support any cost associated with the test if you do it. I can front it also,n problem.! GOOD WORK my man!
Great Video. I cant agree with you more about the poor quality of the Powerfloat 2BShure unit. I had mine for only 3 days and the stitching was coming apart. I've had repair both of them a few times now. Customer service was less then helpful even though they were only 3 days old when I fist had an issue.
Pls make sure to watch the whole video. This post is just so you can have a quick comparison. 9:36 - no flotation 10:55 - Eyeson 33-A PFD 13:26 - Powerfloat 2bsure 17:13 - PPG smoke inflate 18:13 - PPG smoke inflate Test #2 19:32 - Powerfloat U 23:41 - Agama I have a question: wouldn't you get severe burn marks from boiling water (because the hot engine is 10cm under your back)?
Thanks! My only wish is that you'd have done a comparison of installing the Powerfloat-2Bsure or the PPG smoke both on the harness shoulder straps (which you did) but also on the face of the cage just outside the harness. I think it would be interesting to compare the mounting position. Maybe an idea for a follow-up video. :) My flying buddy/mentor mounts his on the cage and when he went in the drink they popped him face up without any effort on his part (I've got him going into the water in one of my older videos... though it's shot from my perspective pretty far away obviously).
I know... I would have loved to test that. My thoughts are that the cage would be great as long as you were face up. If your start off face down (common) you may not be able to flip over as the gas tank and the floats would be pulling you up backwards. Just a thought... I really liked the shoulder strap mounts though.
@@Tommyflies At least for my buddy, he went in face down as I think you are pretty much guaranteed to do in a footdrag gone wrong situation. Good news for him was that he said it pretty much popped him faceup right away without him having to work at it (which is sorta visible in the footage). Anyway.... thanks VERY much for doing this, it was really a great idea and I know took a lot of work putting this together!
Awesome video Tom, and I know it is older and you might not see this but I am doing my training later this month was curious what if anything is out there for floatation for Trikes. I haven't checked into but maybe Fly Products even makes something for the Xenit but haven't really thought much about it until seeing your video.
Good video. Important message. Have to subscribe. That said doing a safety video like without another able body person in the pool is a little nuts. Should really have 2. One scenario people need to understand is where the water is 2 feet deep with crap in the water and you are hurt or unconscious. The floatation won't flip you over. Water is a deathtrap on one of these things. Valuable video.
Great video! I have another test/question for you. On the powerfloat 2Bsure non-U shape cage mounted floats, or any other make/model for that matter...Does exposing them to moderate mist/rain for short periods of time, like in the back of a truck, affect the performance or likelyhood that the floats will inflate if submerged in an actual water landing? In other words, can exposure to moisture lessen the floats ability to inflate over time, if they even inflate at all, in an actual water incident?
Good Stuff. Is there a risk that people with PPG Smoke Inflate units have the faulty batch that won't inflate properly? Do we know how many of these are affected and if they are still on retailer shelves? Is there a procedure for checking / correcting the faulty units? If the most recommended item in the test has had a quality issue that potentially impacts life safety, can we be confident that nobody will buy one after watching this and inadvertently receive a unit that doesn't work when needed...?
Hey Tim. It's very unlikely. They pulled all their inventory at the time and the ones I received were part of a only a small batch. However, you can just check the inflation device between the device and the bladder (pic at 16:24). If that's good, you should be good ✌️
seems like the thing to do would be to have a hard flotation device attached to the frame at all times. it might cause drag and reduce airflow so affect performance, but it would never fail to deploy. and/or maybe wear a heavy duty 'offshore life jacket'. i don't fly so i'm just guessing
I wish I could have tested that... Frame mounts work but I'm more comfortable with the flotation pulling me up by my shoulder straps. The empty space in the gas tank plays a huge role, and I like having floats on either side of my head. ✌️
Additional testing is required 100%. When you are flying over water ( ocean or deep river ) and you sense you are about to go under water, there should be a mechanism to inflate in the air, 2 or 3 or 4 feet before contact with the water and NOT inside the water.
@@rrobets1983 no I don't fly over water though anymore. I think the air in the gas tank and frame tubing gave me a few seconds and I wasn't moving terribly fast so I didn't go face first but more just sitting down and forward a tiny bit. I was freaked out and got out of the buckles pretty quick though.
