Grimaldi not following their own procedures is really common, on all sorts of companies. Most put those procedures in place while making zero changes what the productivity targets are. (Requiring every battery to be manually disconnected but not budgeting any TIME to actually do so) The new procedures are actually there to allow the company to shift blame to employees. Create an impossible goal and blame those under you for not reaching it.
The biggest risk are the EV vehicles. Car carriers regardless if it's rail, truck or ship would never carry fully fueled vehicles. In the case of an EV that is what they are doing. Disconnecting at least the ground on their main battery needs to be a no-brainer. With that in mind there should be a quick access disconnect for emergencies and for shipping. Even if it is just just the ground.
Having to manually disconnect every car battery is a logistical nightmare. It's going to delay loading and offloading immensely. I don't know what the solution is.
Spot on. Rendering every EV safe according to the manual takes a lot of time. Especially when dealing with different makes and models. Loading and unloading of these behemoths is done as quickly as possible. Safety is massively neglected. As soon as insurance cost rises accordingly they will finally fix it.
I was aboard the MV Tellus in June, 2001, en-route to Europe. Three days out of Charleston, SC, the fire alarm sounded. I, and a fellow U.S. Army soldier took our station on the bridge (as we were considered passengers and our mission was to escort 20 M-1 tanks to Bremerhaven, Germany (our final destination)). We watched as the whole crew fought the fire centered on the port quarter, first level down. It took some time, but the fire was taken under control. The next day, the third mate explained that we were very close to abandoning ship because the carbon dioxide system was not working as it should, and the chief engineer was on satellite phone back to United States asking the fire suppression experts what to do. He did get it working, thankfully, and we sailed directly to Bremerhaven, Germany where forensics determined that the fire was started by one vehicle. 125 vehicles either burned completely, or were smoke damaged.
@@graantmnz an EV in 2001? Come on. Well, no. Just no. What EV was available back then? Fossil fuel cars burn much more often than EVs by the way. Count it by the number of cars or by the miles driven...
@@richard--s Yes. But they are also easier to deal with in event of a fire. Back in the 90's milk floats in the UK were EV. Large Lead acid batteries. They don't burn uncontrollable like Lithium though.
Hi there! I’ve only just discovered your channel, when searching for details on the Freemantle Highway on fire off the coast of the Netherlands. In the early 80’s I myself was a marine engineer on deep sea vessels and cruise ships for P&O and Princess cruises. Indeed ship fires are your worst fear when being at sea especially working down the engine room. Your video and explanations are most interesting and well presented by yourself. I have now subscribed and looking forward to many contributions in the near future. Keep up the good work! Cheers Dave Kramer (British and living in the Netherlands)
@wgowshipping I was trying to reply to Dave, who may see my comment here, I wanted to tell him that he had found a Great channel and that Captain Sal was The real deal, and full of useful information in regards to Fire Fighting of all sorts. Hope That you're having a good day Captain Sal. Keep up the great work Captain. And that clip of The Backdraft that Injured the Jacksonville Firefighters was downright Scary and shocking, In it's Power, and seeing the debris that was launched in the Shockwave. Happy to know that no fatalities were suffered, but it definitely may have caused some career ending injuries.
An EV fire in a subterranean parking garage in Australia caused cobalt poisoning in 2 firefighters leading to their permanent disability. This is a big problem that needs to be addressed as we go forward with an EV cutover.
Newer battery chemistries have none or very little cobalt. I hope they make using cobalt illegal for large batteries like cars or home storage. Just like we don't use cadmium anymore. Nasty stuff.
for one i dont want to be told what i am should be driving. these things wont "save the planet" by any means. that's bull. the people that do drive EV's, proper safety procedures regarding charging, manufacturing, and transportation of such vehicles MUST be put in place.
@@andrewdonohue1853 it creates new misery and huge environment damage, in Congo they destroy entire ecosystem for mining and even kids are working in illegal mines!
THANKS very much for your thoughtful insights into shipping issues. Your background, knowledge, and experience greatly help the general "public" to understand these important issues.
So obviously these car carrier companies are doing there best to meet schedules and the time required to disconnect and reconnect batteries is seen as a hindrance to doing that. I watched a video of the loading process and no hoods were shown being opened at any time. They also showed numerous other types of vehicles being loaded such as farming and construction equipment. How time consuming is it to disconnect/reconnect batteries in vehicles like this compared to cars? Excellent video. Really appreciate this.
Heavy vehicles are usually fitted with isolating switches near their batteries which makes it easy to disconnect (without having to physically disconnect a battery). Maybe new cars need to be compulsory fitted with these also. Not sure what they do with EV cars and their large battery as the problems seem to be the battery itself spontaneously combusting.
@@dingoeatswolf3663 Ev batteries do NOT spontaneously combust. Battery fires in EV's are normally caused by a short causing an extremely high discarge rate. This causes very high heat which can cause a thermal runaway.
@@Agnemons They do and they will look up Lithium Battery Dendrites. They can and will ignite on their own. Tho it is not common but it is not rare either.
@@rtqiiThey described the sound as a jet engine firing up before the first blew out the deck and up and down the stairwell onto 5 deck, where the ramp was located.
Blows my mind professionals made such a mistake. I learned of the danger of letting fresh oxygen in a close space from a film with Kurt Russel: “Backdraft” 1991. 😁
🤔 As a side issue with used car transport; is anyone checking to see if these cars are stolen? We've had a huge problem with car theft rings here in Philadelphia. One car heist job was literally of a dozen Kia and hyundais straight from the port of Philadelphia lot. Another Big heist a few weeks ago were of cars straight from airport rental facilities lots. They literally came in, hotwire the cars and pointed a gun at the gate attendant and drove away with like a dozen cars. It's been said that a lot of these vehicles are being shipped overseas. How much customs oversight is going on with the transport of these vehicles? Even before we get to the issues about fire? 🔥 🚒
US Customs can't control the US borders from thousands of people entering illegally everyday. Why would anyone think US Customs has any ability whatsoever to control what leaves the USA?
Grimaldi says every battery must cut off an secure it, but they also know that it not works because of they scheduled the time for the loading. When a accident or a fire accused they treat it down to the ship crew.
Professor Dr Sal, this was a very “TOASTY” episode. Your firefighter experience was invaluable for insights. My heart goes out to those who lost their lives.
Seems like the jacksonville firemen didnt know what they were doing. Another thing to note is the majority of times you have normal land based fire fighters called out to ship fires they often flood the ships and sink it due to excessive water use. You have to bear in mind the weight and free surface effect of the water being pumped in via the hoses
I am a retired chemist. EV's and their large lithium batteries are scary and a terrible danger when on fire. There is not an easy fix. Thank you for your video. Very informative.
Oh, alright Mr Chemist now reduced to apparently no qualifications since you want to emphasize retired. How exactly do you "fix" this not so easily then? How do you disable this massive chemical energy store reading to combust into an exothermic blaze the moment you look at it the wrong way? I think I've spotted the once EV owner here. It's rather cute how you want to wave around your scientific qualifications while simultaneously misleading people on the dangers any highschooler could correct you on.
@@oldmech619 ev's just randomly erupt into flames. thats all there is to it. they are potential bombs. each and every one of them. gas cars usually only catch on fire for an actual reason. like an accident or someone smoking when fueling it up . ev's will literally burst into flames for basically no reason.
I have a Prius and there's a big orange clip you can pull out that completely isolates the battery. It isn't obvious how to get to it, lift the back deck where the spare tire is and it's there. They need to train their loaders better. All fire departments here have done the training since they respond to vehicle accidents and probably tow truck operators. (BTW.. my car is NiMH, not Li batteries)
@@jhb9746 I wasn't thinking that they would wait until a fire to pull the plugs, but to make pulling the plugs part of the loading process. Although, if all the cars around it are burning hot I'm sure the energy in the battery would find away to join the party some way... plugs in place or not. It would prevent the ev from being the start to the fire.
@@grahamstrouse1165 Panasonic got sued for developing batteries for the electric RAV4. Chevron bought up the EV1 battery patents in order to delay the electric car by 2-0 years. That is why EVs now use laptop batteries. It is to work around patents owned by oil companies.
When I shipped my car, a Honda Prelude, from Toronto to Vancouver, via airplane, the car had to be almost empty of fuel and the batterie was disconnected, after loading onto the B747. That was in 1982, so disconnecting a battery while being "shipped", by plane, boat or train, should be standard.
You shipped a Honda Prelude from TO to Vancouver by PLANE? Why? I mean, what did that cost and why did you put that much expense into such a car? I assume someone else was paying to move you.
@@smgdfcmfah it costded me at that time $700.- plus I was on the same flight and was able to pick up my car a little later that day, plus fill the car to the rim with my stuff. By train it would have taken 3 weeks, the car needed to be empty and the shocks would have been shot (I did not know that, the rail company told me that when I called for info) plus the cost was $600.-. So by plane was a way smarter option. Its an option most people never think about. My car just made it size wise.
@@scaryfakevirus Yes it makes a difference. the presenter was incorrect when he said it was not possible to disconnect the battery in an EV. EVs still have 12V batteries. Without the 12V battery the EV is dead, because 12V is needed to close the contactors for the high voltage. You can "boost" and EV with an ICE vehicle, and vice-versa.
@@jamesphillips2285 I wasn't taking about whether they can be disconnected or not. Lithium ion batteries don't require any connection to spontaneously combust. However, lead acid batteries are not a problem if disconnected.
One quick comment. EVs have two batteries. The high-voltage battery and a 12V battery. Typically when the car is parked, the HV battery is electrically isolated from the rest of the car - this is really for the safety of any mechanics that might be working on the car while it is off. The 12V battery drives all of the normal accessories (radio, lights, etc) that you find in any car including keyless entry. Given that there is no alternator, the car may top off the 12V battery as needed from the HV battery, but if the car is parked, this probably won't need to happen very often. When one wants to turn on an EV, the energy from the 12V battery is used to close the relays that connect the HV battery to the rest of the car.
The High voltage battery in EVs and Hybrids can be isolated as well as the auxiliary 12v battery. It does of course mean there's two batteries to disconnect. On finishing loading the Battery disconnection should surely be done by the stevedore same as the lashings on container ships. To go round a big multideck ship by the available crew, disconnecting batteries is a tall order, there may be 22 in the crew but not all are available, they have other duties to attend to before sailing. They will be doing the ISPS's checks for stowaways, and items like holdalls that shouldn't be there, (does mean even the Engine Room procedures have to stop as the ER staff get involved as well). All whilst the terminal operator is pushing to get the ship of their berth so they can get the next one in.
You need only disconnect the 12V battery. The Main battery will then be disconnected automatically. EVs are designed not to connect the high voltage without the 12V present to energize the contactors.
re: "the Battery disconnection should surely be done by the stevedore". unfortunately no, not if said stevedore is looking to AVOID ELECTROCUTION and has a desire to return home to their loved ones. the consumer "errs" when they equate the relatively safe 12V system (though not to be confused with 100% safe) as being the same as the high voltage 400V-1000V system of the traction battery. yeah, ask any qualified Electrician or "Sparky" and they will tell you there's a reason why every electrical panel we've ever seen in our lives has a clearly marked label on the outside that says "DANGER HIGH VOLTAGE".
Thank you so much for this video! Much anticipated! And quite thorough. I was reminded, when you mentioned "dangerous cargo" in containers, about the Halifax explosion, where a ship carrying explosives (known to its crew) that caught fire in harbor in Halifax, Nova Scotia, during World War I. The crew escaped by lifeboat and got as far away as they could before the explosion occurred. Several videos have been made about this event and are worth checking out. It just goes to show that after over 100 years shipping companies are still knowingly loading ships with dangerous cargo with not too much concern about preventing fires on them.
I appreciate your focus is on shipping and you are giving the facts about electric vehicles as just one of the many elements of shipboard fires. John Cadogan, the Australian car expert has a lot to say about the Fremantle Highway or "Dutch Oven" as he calls it. For a no BS analysis of the dangers of evs he is your man. However, you must be warned that he does use strong language, but he is an Aussie. Thanks for your informative videos.
Need to distinguish between EV only and Hybrid. According to a study by Autoinsurance EZ, fully electric vehicles have only a 0.03% chance of catching fire, while an internal combustion vehicle has a 1.5% chance. Surprisingly, hybrid vehicles (which have internal combustion and battery power) are the highest risk of all at 3.4%.
Is it corrupt? Is it political? I suspect you mean: "is it politically corrupt?" Maybe in some isolated areas. I doubt that's a universal cause. To the unasked question: "Is it criminal?" Yes, certainly! That does not mean it's politically corrupt. Some politicians may be criminals, but not all criminals are politicians. Your thought process is interesting.
@@77thTrombone Politics concern state bureaucracies, not just politicians. Reminder: there are several branches of government, and all of them have many bureaucrats assisting people actually elected if branch is elected. And it's the bureaucrats that get corrupted in cases like stolen vehicles getting on board illegally. Not politicians. So yes, political. No, probably not about politicians.
EVs generally have a "fuse" you can pull that detaches the traction battery. You can also usually detach the 12V battery and that will stop power going to the contactors that enable the traction battery's output. Side benefit is to prevent anything going wrong with all of the 12V parts of the car.
True, but the problem with EVs isn't the same as that with regular cars. In regular cars, a spark or short will cause something to catch fire. Disconnect the battery and you eliminate the spark. EVs are different. It is the batteries themselves that create the problem. They burn. It matters not if they're connected to the rest of the car or not.
@@Inkling777 The chance of an EV battery spontaneously combusting is mind-numbingly small. The majority of issues happen while the car is charging or driven.
@@micke3035 The solution to that would be to mandate that EVs can't be shipped mixed in with other vehicles, but rather need to be isolated in some way that gives protection against fire getting to the EVs like perhaps a specific deck that is sealed off from the others or something. (Which would not be perfect, of course, but the goal would be to buy time to get the fire under control before it could reach the EV batteries and get them going.)
The worst-case scenario is not a ship with small crews. It is a fire in a car park holding a thousand or more vehicles breaking pit just as people are leaving at the end of a concert.
Sal, a great video on car carrier fires! This seems to be too common a problem to be ignored. As an engineer, I want to go one step further, beyond describing and analyzing what’s happening; that is to come up with solutions. This would be my proposal for an increased fire safety on car carriers: EV fires seem to be the greatest challenge, as they cannot be extinguished. So the fire has to be contained and it’s propagation stopped in order to limit damage and save the ship. To achieve this, these measures are necessary: - the cargo space where cars are stored is divided into smaller enclosed compartments, several per deck. - a powerful sprinkler system, operated by sea water, is in place, to absorb heat and prevent further ignition of other vehicles. - overboard drainage to discharge the water from the sprinkler system to avoid accumulation of water to an extent that would endanger the ship’s stability. Of course that comes at a price, in terms of financial investment, reduced space and payload, and additional equipment. But it could prevent a total loss of ship and cargo, and limit the economic loss and the damage to an extent that can be repaired. What are your thoughts on this?
An interesting way to handle lithium battery fires is total submersion in water. Better yet salt water as it will slow discharge any remaining intact cells. More importantly, a mass of water greater than the mass of the battery will absorb the massive amount of output heat AND prevent gas discharges from flashing to flames in presence of oxygen. Given we are on a ship, could the EVs be placed in an emergency lower deck which can be flooded with salt water? It would limit the number of EVs carried until safety standards with the cars themselves increase.
The problem is that some cars have had to be left in water for _a month_ before they stopped re-igniting, which obviously is problematic as you're trying to get them off the ship.
Due to their chemical composition, Lithium-ion (Li-Ion) batteries release oxygen when they heat up, and therefore, when they catch fire, it is impossible to smother the flames with water or foam even if the entire battery is completely submersed in water or deprived of oxygen-containing air.
@@datepalm1969 It depends on the chemistry. EVs should move away from Cobolt Oxide to Iron Phosphate. They don't contain oxygen and they don't produce anywhere near as much heat in operation. They are able to sustain a 38mOhm short circuit and not breach cells. When they do pop they spit non-flammable gas... still damn hot though so it can ignite combustables near by, but not long tongues of flames.
@@keith6706 Max time period is a week. And that's only for safety and ease, not because it's necessary. As opposed to ICE vehicles which will explode on the spot and send shrapnel in all directions.
@@datepalm1969 Care to back that up with a credible source, suspected liar? It's not just possible, it's been done and more products for it are out weekly. I HAVE put out Lithium fires with water, which you claimed is impossible. Just need more of it.
Thanks for a very informative video. Never realized the extent of ship fires. As a mechanic I can see why the ships crew does not disconnect the negative terminal on batteries as many are now hidden and burried in all kinds of locations .Also some will then have to have anti-theft systems cleared or reprogramed. Possibly some vehicles have compromised electrical systems because of theft. Especially those being shipped to West Africa.
I work in battery recycling industry and the biggest gap is general public knowledge on LiB safety. The more coverage that is to the point and correct, the greater the public knowledge, the more we can start employing best practices to avoid these issues.
I'm an electrical engineer and I know a lot about electric vehicles. I have no idea what they mean by "disconnecting the battery". Disconnecting the battery is something that the vehicle does normally when turned off. There is a wire that can be cut in an emergency to disable the vehicle. But I have no idea how one could disconnect a battery in a modern EV, unless you remove the battery which is very difficult.
It’s obvious that you know nothing about EVs. And it became obvious as soon as you said “I know a lot about electric vehicles”. People who know a lot about something don’t have to lead with that announcement 😂. EVs….. do have a battery that you can disconnect….. surprise. Oh and guess what, many times it’s the same lead acid battery that gas cars use. Surprise. Oh oh and just wait till you find out it does the same kinds of things that it does in gas cars. Wow. There are so many people infected with Dunning Kruger disease.
I'm not sure Halon would work either. The FAA did a test for use on Li-ion cells in cargo and it was ineffective, "Full-scale tests in a 727 aircraft demonstrated that, even in the presence of Halon 1301, cell-to-cell propagation occurred. The tests also demonstrated that the pressure and off-gassing from the cells could reduce the Halon concentration at an accelerated rate, thereby causing the loss of fire protection earlier then designed." [DOT/FAA/TC-16/37]
Hi Sal, With the number of fires on vehicle transport ships it won’t be long before the insurance industry will be mandating changes to the ships to handle electric vehicle fires. I can imagine Evs being parked around the perimeter of one specific deck so that they can be ejected into the water in case of fire. Or I can imagine high density wet sprinklers on specific decks. It will be cheaper to modify the ships than the complete losses we are now seeing.
The problem with sprinklers is you end up sinking or setting the ship up for years of refit even if the fire is put out within the first hour. You need to flood a deck with 3cms of water per minute to have any hope of keeping the fire contained, In the first ten minutes you reduce the buoyancy safety factor of most of these boats by 30%. These fires burn for 40 minutes with near unlimited water thrown on them. The best case for EVs is to produce them in the market to be sold or ship them without the batteries installed across the worlds oceans. Getting to an ISO standard on EV battery modules is ongoing and moving charged completed batteries is not a useful use of resources if EV batteries become a commodity.
It would be interesting for someone to study the environmental impact of the burning of several thousand petrol and electrical cars and half of a ship and compare that with the environmental impact of deploying a single deck worth of Halon. 🤔
You ask about how tofight the fires , one thing to remember when dealing with a enclosed fire is if there is incandescent carbon like from burning plastics, in adding water you create carbon monoxide and hydrogen, "water gas" or "producer gas" , you need to add enough water to cool the incandescent carbon char to stop the reaction, if you cannot cool it, it self feeds the fire with combustible gas, you need high volume of water to flood the fire
Easiest way to sort this is to ship out batteries and for each country to produce/install batteries once in the target countr6, that's the only was to prevent EV fires
My understanding is that lithium ion batteries generate thei own oxygen, as they burn. Thus, their fires are impervious to generally accepted methods of fire suppression.
They need better battery shut off then just cutting the door jam. They need to easily be able to fit a battery shut off and all battery packs should use some type of fire suppressor in the coolest lines durning shipping.
Slight correction to what you said about EV fires in the most simple terms I can think of: They behave like any metal fire and like any fire also need oxygen. The only difference being they don't need O2 (molecular oxygen) to continue burning. Metal fires including Lithium release so much energy when they burn that they overcome the intramolecular forces keeping simple molecular structures together. As such when CO2 comes in contact with the fire the Oxygen atoms are temporarily separated from the Carbon atoms and bond with the Lithium instead (or any other equally reactive metal) which is the same exothermic reaction we call "fire". The free carbon then bonds with the oxygen of the surrounding air causing a secondary exothermic reaction (ignition) and turns back into CO2 or CO. These secondary fires and their interaction with the metal fire are the reason why they can burn so much longer. So essentially carbon dioxide extinguishers are quite literally adding fuel to the fire. That's why they should never be used to fight metal fires. On that note the only way to actively, quickly extinguish a metal fire is the method we use in the lab: negative pressure. Simply put the lab environment is airtight and when a fire needs to be extinguished we evacuate all the air to suffocate it. Not sure if Installing such a system on a ship is viable tho.
Sounds like the solution is to actually disconnect the batteries. Not an expert, but it seems doable with EVs as well. The only caveat is that you have two batteries to deal with. Maybe ports need to require spot checks of cars before they cast off. Additionally, the extra bulkheads need to be re-added, so that smaller sections of the ship can be flooded with CO2. I'm also surprised that there aren't IR fire sensors. Especially with EV fires, it would be really easy to spot a fire early on with IR. Ultimately, penalties to shipping companies need to be severe enough so that the occasional loss of a carrier isn't just "the cost of doing business"
I don't think that disconnecting the battery pack on an EV will have any effect whatsoever on a thermal runaway event in that battery pack. Disconnecting the battery on an ICE vehicle prevents the possibility of a spark from a short circuit in the car's electrical system setting the gasoline and oil on fire. EV's have no gasoline or oil to catch fire by a spark.
Hauling these auction lot junkers is inherently dangerous AND securing them is really a job for a mechanic. (Lifelong mechanic here, jets on down.) Car carriers are unsafe because their makers CHOOSE to EXTERNALIZE risks. Firefighters should take no risk to put them out. The US should require exporters to perform pretrip car battery REMOVAL. Warehouse tugs fitted with a front-mounted wheel lift as used on repo trucks could shuttle them easily. For now, prepare to lose those vessels and don't risk firefighters for them. Reduced exports should that happen improve the US used car and salvage market! Go hard with safety regulations and heed no snivelling. COERCE COMPLIANCE by vigorous enforcement (paid for by exporters) and fine generously.
???? The problem with Lithium fires is Lithium can just extract the Oxygen if there's oxygen in any form present. You almost have to starve it by Nitrogen smothering the flame or let it burn out. Lithium has a very similar characteristic to Sodium once it starts burning.
Wow. Coming the aviation world I find this all astounding. If these kinds of patterns, or even the hint of a pattern like this, the FAA and the aircraft manufacturers would be all over it in a heartbeat. Incredible that these things just keep happeing over and over again. I can't believe they're still able to get insurance. Aren't the insurance companies getting tired of paying these enormous settlements?
Simple, the lithium batteries made in China in a electric car are shorted, starting the fire, and there is no chance of putting out the fire as it spreads to others. You can't smother it, or put it out with water because it produces it's own heat and oxygen. Transporting them will start causing increases for insurance coverage and freight. They should be considered, hazardous material.
I've shipped my personal cars 3 times over the Atlantic with no issues. Twice a Porsche 928 with the battery under the rear luggage area under the spare tire/tyre. I was never asked about the battery, nor was it disconnected for these voyages in 2020 and 2021.
I love that we're just gradually reverting back to the early 1600s in terms of regulation and oversight for ocean-going cargo. I'm wary of even having a drink near a port nowadays, lest I get shanghaied.
Pulling the mid-pack fuse is almost always redundant If you disconnect the 12v battery in an EV. This is because most EV battery packs have internal contactors that have to be closed by the 12v system before the any other part of the car gets high voltage from the traction battery.
I cringe whenever I hear of shoreside fire departments going aboard a shipboard fire. It’s dangerous for them and the vessel. We used to have specialized marine firefighting units in major ports, but cities have not kept up with the kind of hazards that modern ships have. Perhaps the Coast Guard should take on the responsibility for supporting shoreside fires on board ships. As USCG retired, I received excellent fire fighting training on shipboard fires. That is what is needed to protect ports. Also, with regard to EV fires aboard, improvements in both the EV battery design and shipboard firefighting systems are needed. Perhaps Halon or a similar agent should be reevaluated as a total flooding option to extinguish fires within a sealed compartment. As always Sal, great report.
In electric motorsport the batteries are designed with dowse ports which allow the fire crews to get water directly inside the battery casing. The idea with EV batteries is not necessarily to extinguish the fire, but remove the heat. If these ports were added to regular EVs I imagine they could be connected to a ships fire suppression system during transport.
They don't even have time to disconnect the 12V battery of ICE cars. Someone need to slap the directors of these companies in the face, and then we can work on the details of a solution.
Nice summary of past related events. The military have a name for thermal runaway devices it called an incendiary bomb. The question is, something which insurers will be contemplating, just what are the increased odds of thermal runaway when EV's become the predominant car cargo. On land they are already causeing an increase in catastrophic fires. With statistics being down played.
@@j_taylor It does not matter how many ice fires as they are extinguishable. It is the relevant number of battery fires that could occur per vessel voyages. My guess is with a full cargo of EV's of several thousand, not many. Far more than the available new carrier replacement.
EVs need to be shipped separately. The toxic gases are killers. I deliver cars EVs included. I’ve told all my colleagues in the event of fire get upwind and warn others. I’ve noted charging being the most dangerous time. You’re valuable information has been used for good! Thank you.
Yeah sure you do Sergei, that's why you're regurgitating lies that are as hilarious as they are transparant like "ZOMG evil evil jewish librul Biden democrat EVs create poison gas!!!!" Who are you kidding?
The key difference is fuel vs. stored energy. Gasoline is a fuel, part of a binary fuel system that consumes oxygen to change gasoline into energy. Battery packs are stored energy, not a fuel that needs air. All the energy in the pack can be released no matter the surroundings, they would "burn" on the moon. Not dry chem, not CO2, not nitrogen, not halon, nor water work -- they all deny oxygen. That will stop fuels from burning and turning into energy. But the battery is happy on its own.
The electric car factor will have had a major say in the Fremantle highway fire. Putting aside the source of ignition. Batteries in thermal runaway output massive heat and gasses that are truly terrible for you, particularly if the batteries involve cobalt. The batteries can enter thermal runaway at surprisingly low temperatures and do so independen of oxygen availability.
This former AB says everything is skeleton crewed in the merchant marine so if the stevedores don’t disconnect the batteries then it’s not going to happen. How’s a crew with 6 ABs going to disconnect thousands of car batteries?
Tesla has shipped loads of EVs by RORO. Tesla has made 4.5 million cars. I wouldn't be surprised that 2 million Teslas have been shipped by RORO. Fans have tracked whole fleets(15-20) of ROROs full of Tesla cars at ends of quarters. So far no Tesla RORO fires. A Tesla RORO fire would have been front page news. Tesla must be doing something right. I do know they only charge the cars 50% before shipping. Also EV's have power relays that automatically disconnect the batteries when the cars are off. Also I think most of the Tesla ROROs just contained Tesla cars. No ICE cars. Another interesting point. How is Toyota shipping all their hybrids. They all contain either NIMH or LIithium batteries. They shipped well in excess of 10 million. Most Toyota Hybrids are maid in Japan, not the US.
In the earlier days of Tesla the cars going to Europe had their main batteries mated when they arrived in Europe. How the battery packs were shipped I do not know. I assume they used a smaller lower capital cost ship to transport the Battery Packs. Now with the battery packs being a structural part of the car that will not work. I assume this is one reason Tesla has production facilities in the US, Europe and China. Minimize cars shipped. New EV's are a low risk for starting a fire, but a very high risk if involved in a fire. Used cars are a high risk of starting a fire. EV's should not be mixed with Used cars, fire walls should at least separate these classes of vehicles.
Is there anyone in the maritime insurance industry that you could interview to discuss the issues surrounding these fires? Would be a very interesting window into what the insurance regulators r thinking about it
Good video. Nice to see it’s not all Ev’s that are blamed for all these fires. Yes I understand that Ev batteries are very difficult to put out but aren’t always the cause of the fires. I do believe the design of the ships internals should be redesigned I.e. inner bulkheads. But of course it’s all about money how many cars etc can we pack in.
Great episode Sal , I actually learned a lot about car fires and how often they occur. I think I met you once aboard Maersk Alabama when we were in Oman ??!!!!
What an interesting video , I store vehicles in shipping containers, , I always make sure the negative is disconnected , I won't have anything to do with electric vehicles! I won't even let them inside my garage !
Unfortunately now no one can criticize electrical vehicles even if any issues present themselves. People have made EVs such a part of their identity that they get crazed should you say anything negative about them.
Absolutley shocked these fire departments with ports have such low shipboard firefighting skills. Every royal navy sailor is a trained firefighter, every sea going Officer would have a better understanding. I'm shocked.
Can't help but think that Cargo insurers are going to be the ones who force changes, by adding exclusion or specific clauses for carriage of EV vehicles.
What is sure to happen freight costs will continue to rise because of these fires, whether EV or ice, the investigation on the latest one in the last few days will be very interesting, it's amazing that at fuel stations and refineries there are safety systems in place, what about EV charge stations, apparently there are none, so when your EV catches fire just walk away and watch as it torches others, I don't park next to them, I'd rather walk a few hundred metres
Hearing a ship was carrying high end cars like Porsche, Bently, and Lamborghini tells me it is highly likely they had some cars with hybrid systems on board. All the same hazards to a ship as an EV plus the usual ICE risks in one convenient package.
