I am only part way in and I have already heard several rebuttals. Given that the letter contained about 90 items though, I am not expecting this to be a comprehensive answer.
Mike Betts there are no response to the CES letter except a bunch of what ifs. The Book of Mormon is not historically accurate and the book of Abraham is a false translation of common Egyptian funerary papyrus.
It's interesting you mentioned wondering what he meant by it's dark as Egypt. One of my favorite fiction books is far from the Madding Crowd by Thomas Hardy and there's a phrase in it where the author says it was as dark as the ninth plague of Egypt at midnight. I wonder if that was a very common phrase back then in the 1800's. Far from the Madding Crowd was written in like 1850 or something.
I've read the CES Letter. It's hard to take it seriously. Like most anti-mormon literature, it's full of logical inconsistencies and heavy bias. Take for example, his rant on the translation of the Book of Mormon. He makes the claim that a) Joseph Smith translated by sticking his face in a hat and looking at a stone. And b) Joseph Smith didn't translate, but wrote it by pulling from several different sources. And yet, there's simply no way both of those could be true. He also likes to use Oliver Cowdery as a source of negative evidence, but ignores the fact that Oliver Cowdery came back to the church several years later after leaving it. If any of the church's claims about the Book of Mormon or the Priesthood or 100 other things were fabricated, the one person who would have known for sure was Oliver Cowdery. Why would he come back if he knew it was false? It makes no sense. If you strip away all of the bias, illogic, and frustration from the CES Letter, it really boils down to: The church has some past history that isn't great. Maybe the church should be more open about it.
Hyrum Tanner Joseph Smith was a false prophet! Period! Anyone who questions that fact needs to read the documentary by Fawn Brodie, “No Man Knows My History. She got her information from the Mormon Church archives. She was very unbiased, though she does have a list of all Joseph Smith’s wives, and the history behind each one. He would not even qualify as a New Testament deacon. The truth is Mormonism has a false God, a false Bible, a false church, and a false heaven! Read the inspired “Holy Bible”, and pray to the one and only true God and creator, in Jesus name and you will find the truth as it is in Jesus.
Well your first point wrong. "A- he translated with his head in a hat" Isn't saying he actually translated anything, just that he was doing that while pretending to translate. Of course he could have pulled from different sources, he'd just have to study them in his downtime when his head wasn't in the hat. Your second point well... if you're OK with being part of a fraud to start with maybe you're OK with it later on in life too. You certainly couldn't just admit to being part of the fraud without taking a major hit to your honour. You can't really assume what these people would or wouldn't do we don't personally know them.
It amazes me how Mormons don’t even know their own church. In the gospel library under Church History Topics, the church literally admits that Joseph Smith used seer stones to “translate” the Book of Mormon. He put the stones in a hat to block out the light so he could see the words appearing in the stones better. You obviously don’t even know this religion that you devoutly give your whole life too. Sad.
@Kevin HM8404 I went to a church where when I was a kid, we followed the tradition of no clapping, but now clap after a musical performance. It's quite awkward, because church is not a performance. For reference, I'm an atheist UU, not a christian.
This is one thing that I really find disatisfying about church responses. I haven't made it to the whole video I'm 13 minutes in and he has yet to address a single point. I hope the church with all its might can figure out how to come up with a better response then long-windedness and wandering aimlessly.
Samuel Baker that will never happen because there is no response to counter the truth. No lost tribe of Israel came to America. We are not Hebrew we came across the Bering strait. Therefore all the questions about the religion are moot.
This is not a church response. You can find some actual responses on the website but a lot of these topics the church doesn't respond to because there is too much evidence both for and against these claims. Also a lot of it is simply do you believe in the possibility that Joseph Smith found plates translated it to the book of Mormon and restored gods true church. If you believe that then u can accept the fact that the plates were taken from Joseph Smith because it would be too easy to believe if they existed on Earth. As well as if God took the plates back then he could take all evidence worth noting of the nephites and lamenites which is why we can't find it. These statement are fictional I know but this is the reality of the religion. Read the book pray about it and if u get your answer act on it.
ndawgstrike praying about people that didn’t exist isn’t the answer, every religion does that and gets confrontation so that would me they are all true religions. You just confirm what you want to believe. I am Native American and we know our history.
@@shawnbradford2243 I don't mean any disrespect but there are studies that show American Indians have genes that did not exist in siberia and Mongolia but in fact only existed in Egypt and the surrounding area. My point is there is evidence for both sides. There are native Americans who believe they did come from Israel and believe the book of Mormon to be ancient American Indian history. Which is why I say leave it to faith pray to know and follow the inspirations given by the holy spirit. Facts will always exist for both sides and God sent us to the earth to come to him in faith not in facts. John 20:29 Thomas did not believe christ was resurrected and needed to see for himself it was true. Not believe the words of Christ's followers. And in verse 29 we learn that blessed are those who believe and have not seen. Faith is the key to any religion pray with faith study with faith and live by faith.
ndawgstrike you are factually incorrect no dna from the Middle East in modern or ancient native Americans from Alaska to Chile. Please cite your source for this information. Just because a Native American who is Mormon says it’s true doesn’t make it true, people say they were abducted by aliens but I bet you do not accept that.
I really enjoy Dan and his knowledge, but have to disagree with his assessment of John Sorenson and his book and findings. The heartland model, referring to the Hopewell people and the Mound Builders, are a much better fit for the people from the Book of Mormon time. Everything lines up perfectly. One gentleman in Iowa has a large barn filled with artifacts which he as collected over the years and stored them and made a type of museum. Wayne May has spent years documenting sites and lands which fit the descriptions in the Book of Mormon. Ohio, Indiana, and many other states are filled with so many findings and land structures, it is fascinating to see what is out there. The DNA has now found a fifth marker which substantiates the middle eastern ties. I have found so many things in this CES letter, which when looked into actual sources that I have found the studying the CES letter actually promotes the church and the Book of Mormon. To me reading the CES letter and not looking into the actually documents it is like listening to CNN and MSNBC and trying to figure out if President Trump as done anything good in less than two years. Like jobs, trade, N. Korea, unemployment, etc. . . . I do listen to CNN and MSNBC and FOX News, but find the best info is found from the alt media and finding and reading and researching the source documents and not just listening to what someone thinks you should understand from their perspective. I want the source info, not someone's opinion about it.
Kabane isn’t there more skeletons that aren’t they old? Then you can bring up the problems with dating it’s not 100% reliable, then what if people are lying. Have you seen people who provide evidence for the Book of Mormon? I haven’t seen anyone rebuttal them. There’s a few talks on the RU-vid channel “Lifey” So doesn’t that prove that there is truths to the BoM?
As a member, with several college degrees and a “thinker of thoughts” this Peterson guy didn’t answer anything really. He went on and on about this “guy wrote about this, and this other wrote that.” Instead of quoting “these authors” he avoided it altogether. Also, if artists got it wrong, why where illustrations, like Samuel’s, allowed to be in the Book of Mormon that Missionaries hand out? As a member who plans not to leave the Church, this is a waste of time to listen too. I do not feel enriched for watching it, not one iota.
I think this presentation is supposed to be like more of an overview on the topic, rather than going into specifics on any one part. FAIR seems to have a more in depth series responding to the points in the CES letter specifically, if that's what you're interested in.
I agree better to completely ignore the issue then to bring it up say it would take too long to answer this but the answers are quite simple if you just look.
No offense, but you (and almost everyone in this comment section) missed the point of this talk altogether. He was not trying to debunk the CES letter, he was not trying to refute it point by point, or make some final take-down of Jeremy Runnels lies. He doesn't have to, many other people have already responded to Jeremy Runnels grievances ad nauseam. He was purely trying to, as the title says, give some "reflections" on the Letter. He was trying to talk about the Letter in general, the effects it has had, its place in anti-Mormonism, and to address a couple points he thought were illustrative.
I find it true that many people (not all) are only willing to put time and research into a seemingly controversial topic but not enough time and/or research is put in. They stop at the what but don't research the why which leads to false conclusions and some label these conclusions as facts and share them online. And people blindly believe them. The moral? Look at the big picture instead of just focusing on a cluster of "controversial" areas. There may not be a definite answer for certain topics but the ones I know of usually have some range of plausible possible reasons. Anti-mormon literature, in my experience, fills their lies with bits of the truth, a way of hiding their deception. I enjoy studying about the history of the LDS church. I strive to know the historical truths and have just begun this personal research as an interest and hobby of sorts. I'm posting this comment to share my views on the subject. If you don't agree with them I'll ask you to be civil and at least have respect for my views for they are my opinions.
I agree that not enough research is ever done. What I would like to point out is that a true claim only becomes more true as it is experimented with and compared with known evidence. This is not the case with the Mormon religion, as time has progressed, its members have found the truth that has been hidden, and continues to lose membership. It has not, and will not stand the test of time. In only 200 years it has lost i5s momentum, the Catholic Church is still going. Both are being disproven daily, but there will always be those individuals that are som invested and indoctrinated that they would “lay on their swords” before admitting they were wrong. Sharpen your sword sister, it’ll make it “quick and dirty”, just like all the evidence in the ces letter.
@@cabeb.1047 Mormonism is still growing, though maybe slower than before. The Catholic church may be declining, but still has 1.2 billion members so the comparison you chose is really, really odd.
@@cossakman101 just do a quick search about their membership numbers from year to year. I checked a few sources (from companies who track this sort of thing) before posting the comment. Is it really that hard to look up membership numbers for any given church?
@@mimked I think you misunderstand. I was asking for the source of your information not a lesson on how to use Google. All the reliable sources I've seen show membership going up but also a decrease in actual active members and an increase in inactive and former members.
I don't know why so many people said in the comments that David C Petersaid did not answer any of the claims of the CES Letter. The entire talk was about answering the claims that the CES letter is making. This is the main argument that he is making 1) Some of the claims that the CES letter has been answered before and Jeremy Runnells did not interact with any of those sources that defended those claims. Rather he just quotes the same anti-claims that we hear all the time. 2) He wanted to make his audience think outside of the box. For example his whole example regarding the imagery regarding the plates and how the illustrator didn't really project the facts of the situation. After hearing that argument I was looking at a pouding box. I notice that the illustrator was making the pudding very liquidy. While in reality pudding aren't really fluid. (I more scientific term they have a high viscosity rating while the illustrator made it low viscosity.) The viscosity of a fluid is a measure of its resistance to deformation at a given rate. For liquids, it corresponds to the informal concept of "thickness": for example, syrup has a higher viscosity than water. Applying the same criteria that the critics would make that the illustrator was lying about their pudding
my dude, you really need to listen well..... this was a complete failure as a professional. This was wasted time, you are only 1 in so many who just don't understand, logic, reason, philosophy , manipulation tactics, argument, form of debates, understanding etc.
*_From This Presentation._* Listen to what the Dominican Catholic priest Jordan Vajda has to say at the end of his 1998 thesis at the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley: “What has resulted from taking another look at _The God Makers?_ The Mormons are truly god makers, as the doctrine of exaltation explains. The fullness of human salvation means becoming a god, yet, what was meant to be a term of ridicule has turned out to be a term of approbation, for the witness of the Greek Fathers of the Church is that they also believe that salvation meant becoming a god. It seems that if one’s soteriology cannot accommodate a doctrine of human divinization, then he has, at least implicitly, if not explicitly, rejected the heritage of the early Christian Church and departed from the faith of first millennium Christianity. However, if that is the case, those that would espouse such a soteriology also believe, in fact, that Christianity from about the second century on has apostatized and gotten it wrong on this core issue of human salvation. Thus ironically, those who would excoriate Mormons for believing the doctrine of exaltation actually agree with them that the early Church experienced a great apostasy on fundamental questions. And the supreme irony is that such persons should probably investigate the claims of the LDS Church, which proclaims that from within itself can be found the restoration of all things.”
Muzzleblast, Very interesting quote. Perhaps, I have misunderstood, but, Did Father Jordan Vajda say the LDS church should be investigated? Did he mean it? If I were a theologian of another faith I would research it. Why not do so? Surely we can learn from one another. I am a Mormon and I find other religions worth reading about. It interests me to know what the other guy thinks and believes. Thank you for your post.
I had to look up excoriate and soteriology. I guess they mean “to severely criticize” and “doctrine of salvation”. It’s cool to see that the quote isn’t being taken out of context.
I'm reading some of the comments right now and I'm seeing a lot of "oh but what about (fill in your Mormon concern.)" responses. I wonder if we can really expect the guy to counter every point in the CES letter in a 50 min talk..... He did note that it's a 90 pg read and would take about 5 times as much material to talk about it. I'm all for trying to outsmart the person giving the lecture but let's give Dan a break on this one.
kirkland meadows He's critical of the authors writing style because that is a reflection of the authors poor understanding of the issues. It's easy to be critical of topics when people know little about it. Jeremy throughout the CES letter is critical of church history/book of Mormon themes not because there is much wrong with those ideas, but his understanding is the problem. It's sad that people pretend like Jeremy is an expert on LDS history when he ignores decades of research that has been done on it (FARMS\Maxwell Institute, Interpreter, etc)
I have read the letter and was VERY disappointed with this response. It truly lacks substance and fails to address some of the major questions brought up by the author. I especially like when he began to talk about the Book of Abraham and how the author of the letter claimed it was his "smoking gun" that caused him to lose his faith because Joseph Smith's translation of the facsimiles were entirely inaccurate, and his use of deities in no way coincided with established Egyptology. Dan's response was basically, "There's a crocodile in the facsimile, and one Egyptian God is personified as a crocodile. So HA! Joseph was NOT 100% wrong!" Hahaha!!!!! Honestly, for true believers of the LDS church, if you're looking for a substantive response to the Letter to a CES Director to help with questions you may have, this is absolutely not it. Waste of time.
Richard Holmes I've watched a few of them so far. I'll admit they provide a better response to concerns brought up in the CES letter, but also there are many points where I feel they barely address critical points. Also, the fact that they try to assuage readers of the letter with Runnels alleged "deceptive" nature is falacious and repugnant. I believe he presented the letter as an overall question with a desire for validation, and he got no response. He wasn't writing a book about how Mormonis is wrong, he was presenting concerns seemingly unanswered by church officials and doctrine in the hope of receiving an honest response to which he again, received none.
1) 1:00 Wait... are a *variety of other perspectives* that are all "faith promoting or affirming" really... *a variety of other perspectives?* That sounds a lot like a selection bias. 2) Just because something is long (big list) doesnt make it wrong. I have a 'big list' of arguments of why the earth is not flat.
1) Potentially. Just because something is "faith promoting" doesn't mean it's all the same as other things that are faith promoting. A church member who grows up in China, or Russia, is going to have a different perspective on life than a member from the US, even if they share the same faith. 2) The issue with a long list is that it makes it difficult to address any of the individual issues in a meaningful way. When engaging in discussions with people, it's really annoying to address one issue for them to just discard that and move to something else. The individual items have no special meaning and so, if any of them are wrong, it doesn't matter because other items still exist on the list. If you're not willing to reconsider your position when your argument is disproved, then you're probably not arguing in good faith. I get that any given person might have multiple arguments in their arsenal, but each one should be able to be evaluated separately. The long list fallacy (if we want to call it that) requires everything to be disproved, or else none of it counts.
Voro Kusanagi the Book of Mormon is verifiably false historically, the book of Abraham is verifiably not Chaldean Rahleenos written by the hand of Abraham on papyrus, debating the content of either is moot! Like debating if Harry Potter is real facts!
I really enjoyed this, Dan. Is there any chance you will be publishing the long version of this. You clearly had more to say than time would allow, and your critics seem to expect you to answer everything, thoroughly and at length, before conceding that you have answered anything at all. This of course is a floating bar that is raised as you go. "You may have addressed 30 things here, but as long as I have even one unanswered concern, you haven't done enough." Your ability to make this a learning process rather than a point of frustration is impressive. It's kind of like, say, Spider-Man; no matter how many times he beats back a villain, he will never actually win because they always have just one more plan. I would love to see this presentation in book form.
Dark_Winter, Yes he did, especially by pointing the failure to engage with what supports the opposite side. DNA being oversimplified for example, how much did Jeremy address about: nucleotides, alleles, mutagenesis, metabolic pathways, genotypes, environmental factors, DNA replication, DNA repair? They are the most basic things about DNA, does he show you the trail? No. Jeremy fails to investigate his own claims, he is basically a hear and say. We know vikings were in America and there's no viking DNA there, why? Human genes can evolve or fade away very quickly through positive natural selection. Human genes have evolved during the pandemic which is why we are more resistant to the virus now. If you're ever going to believe something scientific, actually research the subject yourself.
At 13:08 he begins addressing several points of the letter including DNA, change to the introduction of the Book of Mormon, locality of Book of Mormon people, and discusses gross oversimplifications of the CES letter where he makes broad claims that just aren’t true.
Many people want absolute proof before they will believe. But that’s not the way faith works! We need to first come to things in faith, then the Holy Spirit will confirm to us the answers we are seeking. Fair Mormon does a good job in addressing the controversial topics of the day, and it’s interesting. But the “proof” of things yea or nay just isn’t going to happen in this life.
Tim French it’s not needing absolute proof there is easy evidence. What your saying is have faith the evidence is wrong. Lots of dna evidence native Americans are Asian, lots of evidence Joseph translated Egyptian wrong (Rosetta Stone) lots of evidence Joseph lies about a lot of stuff. Do you believe the earth is flat? Are there only two genders?
Erick McNerney www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/mormon-church-has-misled-members-on-100-billion-tax-exempt-investment-fund-whistleblower-alleges/2019/12/16/e3619bd2-2004-11ea-86f3-3b5019d451db_story.html You should it’s just a scam to get money
Hey Tom, faith in something that can be proven as fraudulent is not a virtue, it’s a great handicap. Why give 10-27% of all your money to a company founded on a fraudulent book? Joseph proved himself as a liar on many occasions. He was a pedophile. Would you have given your 14 year old daughters to live with a 35 year old man??
There shouldn't be "adequate" answers and "more than adequate answers." They should all be perfect answers to all of our questions. These are very simple things that are contradicting the church, it's not like the ces letter is hyperfocusing on some sort of niche topic
Setting an impossible standard is a good way to be disappointed and feel justified in doing so. It's a cognitive error to think that there must always be a perfect answer to every question. Sure, once we live in the presence of God and can understand everything fully, then we'll be able to understand what the perfect answers are. Until then, we make so with answers that address the question and, if that can satisfy us, we call them adequate (or more than adequate, if we can be really satisfied). We don't set the standard that all answers must be perfect answers in any other facet of life (scientific progress would practically halt if we had to have a perfect knowledge of all things before we could move on), so it is unreasonable to make that demand here.
Isnt that funny! Tell Hinckley and Monson they wasted millions being inspired to then have Nielson say it is a victory for Satan! Haha! The whole thing is pathetic.
So he answers nothing. He claims ‘over simplification’ and ‘other people have come up with possible answers’ or ‘we dispute that’. You can’t argue scientific fact and many of the books claims are proven to be nonsense.
This is the curious thing, that there are people like you who somehow believe your position corroborated by "scientific fact", when it really isn't. Science serves the Book of Mormon far more than it discredits it. And that is very hard to explain.
Your founder claimed to find a book made of gold using his magic stone but would never show it to anyone. A book weighing 200+lbs which he ran home with under 1 arm while fighting off men on the way. Gold can't be made into a book as described because it would literally tear apart and flatten out the imprinted words. He then translates it by putting his face in his hat and looking at his magic stone. He later translates more texts which are later discovered and translated by genuine scholars and it's clear he made it all up. All of it. A child wouldn't buy this nonsense, never mind bringing science into it.
axeman3d the Mormons that defend their religion will not accept anything outside of the church. FairMormon is a bunch of what ifs that apply to all civilizations while ignoring the actual physical remains and facts. Ignorance is bliss!
@@shawnbradford2243 < the Mormons that defend their religion will not accept anything outside of the church.> The simple desire to prove the church wrong does not endow someone with actual facts, only the illusion of facts. Over a hundred spurious theories have been put to rest to date. As a genre, they are unreliable in the extreme.
watched 45 minutes of it and he didn't answer a single criticism. Instead, he claims they are not "original" or "jumped ship too soon" but he never explains why. He simply criticizes the critic or criticisms without actually addressing the content of either. Where he appears to wade into facts, he is frequently lying. Interesting that he brings up creationists because he uses the same techniques but he doesn't have a university place to give up for a bible study group, he's one of the Mormon hacks from BYU! They should be able to rescind Ph.Ds. I'm sure he is an embarrassment to UCLA.
@@williamturner6192 Then why is he criticizing without giving any explanation to why he is criticizing? My comment is perfectly valid. He isn't saying WHY it is wrong, he's just claiming it is. He couldn't win a high school debate with such nonsense. You would have to be blind with faith not to see this as tripe, or stupid, assuming there is a difference.
don schelling man don’t let those pesky facts and logic get in the way of the golden plates translated by putting a treasure seeker peep stone in a hat or the “translation” of common Egyptian funerary papyrus I mean Zub Zool Oan is real Egyptian right 😂
Do any of you critics even WATCH the video? He made it abundantly clear that it wasn't supposed to be an in depth, point by point response. He is simply giving his GENERAL IMPRESSIONS. Also, he definitely DOES directly address, and respond to, several of the claims made by Mr. Runnels. He didn't simply "wave them aside" with his hand
It wasn't supposed to be an in depth, point by point response. He made that abundantly clear from the beginning, and yet, the only criticism of his talk I'm hearing form critics is "He didn't even address his points"..... Well DUH!! He was giving his general impressions of the letter. Also, it is incorrect to state "He didn't address ANY facts related to CES Letter claims".... If that's what you think, you clearly didn't watch it. He definitely addressed multiple of them.
@@shawnbradford2243 I fail to see how your question is relevant to the discussion at hand, but I will attempt to answer it anyways. In short no... I cannot provide you with evidence that Joseph Smith could translate egyptian, for one very simple reason. Joseph Smith did not know how to translate egyptian. Plain and simple. I think we have an abundant amount of evidence to back that assertion. The papyri he was most likely translating from (there's a possibility that he was actually translating from a scroll that we no longer have, but most scholars seem to disagree with this proposition) when he produced The Book of Abraham, are nothing more than common funerary texts. On top of that, his explanations/ interpretations of the facsimiles simply do not match what modern egyptologists say they mean. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Those are simply the facts. Now, I want to shift gears a little bit here and address what I sense is the heart of the matter. You seem to be under the impression that the truth claims regarding The Book of Abraham (and by implication, the truth claims of The Church as a whole) rest upon Joseph Smith's ability to translate egyptian. I disagree with this assertion. Now, don't get me wrong. I am not implying that this point of view is born of ignorance. It is certainly a reasonable position to take, and the arguments in favor of it are pretty straight forward. To drastically oversimplify, the main argument essentially states: A). Joseph Smith claimed to be a Prophet of God, who, through the power of God, could translate ancient records B). In the case of The Book of Abraham, this is a testable claim because: 1. We have the source materials from which he allegedly translated from And 2. We now know how to translate/ read egyptian C). Joseph Smith fails the test as as translator, because his translation/ interpretation of these ancient egyptian documents does not match what modern egyptologists say they mean D). It than logically follows that Joseph Smith was a false Prophet. Now, I realize that that's a vast oversimplification (and not very well worded. I'm not an expert, cut me some slack 😂😂), but I think it will suffice. This argument, and it's conclusions, are pretty straightforward. However, they do rely on some assumptions, and it is my strongly held opinion that the closer we examine/ scrutinize them, the more reason we have to doubt them. For example, I think we have greatly oversimplified the human/ deity relationship when it comes to Prophets. Essentially, many people view Prophets as "fax machines" for God. In practice, God simply pushes a button (so to speak), and the Prophet spits out the words unfiltered. The resultant revelation is therefore viewed as completely inerrant. The literal words of God from his own mouth. This is a view NOT supported by our scriptures, and yet many people accept it as a given. We believe that our Prophets are human, and there is a human element to the revelations they receive. As an example, we could look at the example of Oliver Cowdery. When Oliver attempted to translate a portion of The Book of Mormon, the Lord's response was this. "Oliver, you assumed I would just give it to you. That's not how this works. You have to study it out in your mind first. You have to put forward your own effort first" (Paraphrased). To further back this point, we could also look at the example of Joseph himself. Almost every single one of his major revelations, was predicated upon human effort. To name a few: 1. First vision (study and prayer) 2. Moroni's first visit (repentance/ prayer) 3. Receiving the plates (Years of preparation) 4. Priesthood Restoration (praying about a question) 5. Polygamy (Studying/ Praying about a question). These are just a few examples among many. We also see examples of God working through mankind's assumptions (including faulty ones). This framework is backed by 2 Nephi 31:3 which states, "For the Lord giveth light unto the understanding; for he speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding". As an example, we could look at seer stones. Seer stones are a controversial subject, but the fact of the matter is that seer stones were a part of Joseph Smith's cultural milieu. It may seem weird to us, but it wasn't for people of the time. When the Lord called Joseph to be a Prophet, he didn't say "Hey Joseph. You gotta ditch the rock. That's not how we roll around here". Instead, the Lord worked through Joseph's worldview/ assumptions. To greatly summarize, these points are a part of how I make sense of The Book of Abraham. I have no problem with the idea that Joseph became excited/ interested in these ancient documents (because of his culture, and because of his calling as seer/ Prophet), and that as he sought to understand/ study them, The Lord revealed The Book of Abraham to him. In short, God worked through his faulty assumptions. Now, understand, this is greatly summarized. If you want a more fleshed out/ clearly stated version of what I'm talking about, I highly recommend "The Pearl of Greatest Price", by Latter Day Saint Scholars Terryl Givens and Brian Hauglid. Oxford press published it, so it's good scholarship. I would also recommend listening to Brian Hauglid's and Robin Scott Jensen's presentation at the Maxwell Institute on this topic (as a part of the Joseph Smith Paper's project). A lot of good stuff there. If you have any questions/ want to talk about this topic more, I'm all ears. Have a nice day (:
Ethan F. Your the first person to not just say you anti Mormon your stupid. Thank you for actually having a thought. As for use of the seer stone, Joseph was given a Urim and thummim (spectacles) by god so why were they not used? What of reformed Egyptian in general? Also no seer stone was used in the translation of the book of Abraham. And we have most of the papyrus that Joseph had. In the GAEL he uses characters found on the recovered papyrus and gives English translation and definitions which pertain to the book of Abraham. www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/grammar-and-alphabet-of-the-egyptian-language-circa-july-circa-november-1835/7 These words are very clearly made up Zub Zool - oan? Even the method of breaking apart the characters with levels of meaning is incorrect. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_Hypocephalus He also filled in the hypocephalus incorrectly and “translated” every thing wrong. None of this is about Abraham or written by the had of Abraham. And it just happens to have polygamy as doctrine? It clearly shows Joseph’s literal translation of the papyrus and him inserting his command to be with other women to where Emma cannot refuse. Is this translation of man or god?
"You don't need to speak many words to speak the truth" Chief Joseph Raise the issue, cite the facts accurately. Do not lead people to a desired conclusion. " Speak the truth in love" Apostle Paul
In law to convict someone “ you need beyond reasonable doubt “ The strongest of strong evidence, not all doubt because that is impossible. If a murder happens in Utah for example , potentially all citizens are suspects. But little by little the evidence points again and again to one person and one person alone. That is criminal law and is the highest standard of proof someone committed a crime and needs to be jailed. Even here some innocent people are incarcerated. Nobody expects this standard for any religion obviously, including the Mormon claims. In civil law where the defendants freedom is not at stake but money must be paid. The threshold of “ guilt” is the preponderance of evidence “ is it more likely than not that the defendant for example failed to meet his contractual agreement ( ie did he do what he agreed to) Therefore the churches claims would fall under the preponderance of evidence ie is the churches claim more than likely to be true than false based upon the evidence. This I can not tell you, it is so individual and personal but the consequences of the wrong choice both sides will agree can be devastating ie if the churches claims are true and make sense to you , you should stay if not you should leave. Don’t let this guy or the CES letter be your sole means of making your decision. Despite what the church says it is ok to have doubts and say I don’t know, despite the rhetoric by the church that there is something wrong with you. It is only by having doubts and these doubts cast away for the most part by the person making their claims that we make critical decisions in life. The decision is ultimately yours. All I can say is choice wisely my friend because your life’s direction and the joys and problems you fact will depend on that. Ultimately the decision is yours, that is life and the pain and joy of life. I will not tell you my decision because it is one of many opinions but please think critically outside the social pressures and keep asking “ is this more than likely to be true or not?”
You unjustly mischaracterized the Church. Rather than "rhetoric by the church that there is something wrong with you", here's what an apostle, Elder Uchtdorf, said about doubt: "It's natural to have questions-the acorn of honest inquiry has often sprouted and matured into a great oak of understanding. There are few members of the Church who, at one time or another, have not wrestled with serious or sensitive questions. One of the purposes of the Church is to nurture and cultivate the seed of faith-even in the sometimes sandy soil of doubt and uncertainty. ... please, first doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith. We must never allow doubt to hold us prisoner and keep us from the divine love, peace, and gifts that come through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ." Thinking critically is always important, and it's never enough for religious belief. Even experts lack the evidence and reasoning ability required to determine ultimate religious truth through logic alone, especially when there are parties pushing deceptive messages; the average person can't pretend to come close, and many people who listen to the deceptive messages are indeed deceived--they are those who should have doubted their doubts. There some things that we can't learn purely through scientific observation and deduction; for example, we don't have instruments that detect spirit. God never told everyone to try to discover spiritual truth through reasoning; one message we have in scripture is "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." (Proverbs 3:5) God tells us to direct our questions to Him. He lets us know that faith is crucial: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. ... But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11:1, 6) Faithful members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints seek and receive that reward. We base the foundation of our belief in revelation from God, and revelation from Him is beyond doubt. We don't ask, "do I think, with my limited ability, that the foundation of my faith is likely to be true?" We get that foundation from God directly. There's plenty of room for both reconsidering some aspects of our belief--because we're wrong about plenty of things--and accepting some unknowns while still learning. When information appears to contradict truth we have received from God, we have good reason for not being swayed by that information--especially when it's being presented by people who are demonstrably inaccurate at times and who are attempting to take most precious things from us without giving anything in return. Thus, the "CES Letter" is not useful for us.
Yeah truth doesn't exactly need apologetics. Yeah I love the people in this church and there's so many things that are good about the church This is treating people that want to do the will of God and when done right they do something so good and yet at the same time they are so far from the truth I don't know how many scribes they employ but it must be a lot for all those manuals and they sure What were characteristics of the scribes and Pharisees The gospel is simple you can say it in this little as one word Love What in the heck do you suppose it is all about It doesn't feel like love Well what are you want to spend the most time doing and experiencing Why do you think God created you cuz you needs people to worship him? Is that the kind of God path you want I don't want you to worship me I just want you to have faith in me Work with me to make heaven
@@stanleyhall8951 did not come to me and humility You rather wereship a god of mor money You want to be like the god you worship You wish being a God someday You want people to bow their heads Fold their arms seance chants You don't want people to talk to you when you might be morally wrong Discriminate people because of the color of their skin Fold your arms Bow your head when when someone else speaks the thinking is done that's the way you become a God you don't think for yourself Bow your head follow nonmorality What is the truth outside of Mormonism I am truth In my gospel can be spoken in as little as one word Love You don't need to speak it to get the word out You don't need dozens of books or manuals You don't need to seances You can preach my gospel with a hug Or kind word showing equality Shining authority Heaven is not built on authority as forceful rule It is what happens when priority is 💕love love does not send people away from the door of God's house Love does not require 10% of your wage and love does not shun you if you don't pay your way to heaven
@@stanleyhall8951 in the garden I asked Adam and Eve where were they Cuz I didn't know everything And I don't know if you're like everyone else You are and you'll be part of the whole world DCievers You will shun me like everyone else You won't ask in humility Because I don't look how you imagine me
@@stanleyhall8951 why did you ask then You won't even think what if God actually talking to me what if my heavenly father feels he wants speak personally with me That's too much for your faith though The God you have faith in can't do that
You put a lot of words in someone’s mouth you don’t know. I’m sure you’ve read things a lot longer then this and are ignorant to say you can’t read it. Don’t act educated but then claim you can’t understand the letter. Your tactics of thinking you will push people away from the truth will not work. Truth will prevail.
Blake Lingmann Yup, like believing the church is true. Don’t act all noble when you are just trying to drag people away from beliefs that people sincerely hold and gives them hope. Do you also go to Jewish apologetics and try to dissuade faithful believers? In today’s society being anti Semitic is a bit more taboo, but being Anti-Mormon is fair game because we are the crazy ones for daring to believe. You give us the “truth” and then what? A life whose purpose is to tear others down? What do you have to offer in place of this “superstition” we have all been conned into believing by a bunch of people who lost their lives for this and a bunch of old guys who could be enjoying their retirement instead of furthering the “Mormon Conspiracy”? Many who leave the church find it hard to believe in anything anymore. I just watched a Steven Crowder video (now surely I’m an ignorant alt-right for watching Crowder) where they infiltrate an Antifa group at University of Utah and guess what? One of the members was exmormon! Is that what we have to look forward to by hearing “the truth”? Angry nihilistic victimhood? Because those are the options at the end of either path.
Alex, you misunderstand. The greatest gift we can give each other is to lead us to the truth, and away from the lies of conmen and those who would deceive us for their own ends. That gift is the gift of critical thinking, of examining the claims of others and testing them. Mormonism offers nothing but superstition and empty, ridiculous promises of pie in the sky when you die. (Your own planet? Certainly, sir. Just keep paying the money up front, will you?). To be able to distinguish truth from lies is what allows us to choose our own path in life (wherever that may lead) without being taken in by every charlatan that comes our way. It is not a question of trying to 'drag' anyone away from anything. None of us can claim perfect knowledge, but some of us can identify the preposterous truth claims of the LDS church for what they are.
Well then, what about the nonsense of becoming a god on your own planet, but the promise of a reward - about as subtle as a pedo luring kids into his car with sweets? A fabulously wealthy church that invests billions of dollars on commercial properties, and offers 'guaranteed' celestial rewards (second sealing) to high-status Mormons who pay enough in tithes. Are they not buying something - even if what they're buying is nothing but hot air? Could you answer these questions, Caleb? But I have to say, much as I believe that Mormons are basically decent people, the religion is so morally bankrupt that it only serves to deceive and corrupt its followers, by inducing them to believe in obvious lies, or to ignore the shocking facts of their church's ignominious history.
I learn many things from the people and things around me. However, when it comes to being led toward truth, that role is filled by the Savior and the Holy Ghost confirms truth. The more I study, pray and follow the Lord, the more SOLID my testimony becomes that the gospel is true and there is more truth that will be revealed by our Savior. I remain open minded, try to stay humble and obedient, and my relationships with them keeps me prepared to receive truth through the right channels.
The CES letter was what started me down the rabbit hole of problems with the church. Hardest realization I ever faced that the church is not what it claims.
@@Dreammaster695 the ces letter is only what started my journey. It was looking at all sources including meeting with a general authority that sealed my fate in the church.
Jason sad to see you go. If the church is true and is the restored gospel here on earth then your decision will be your biggest OOPS while on earth. If it’s not then I guess you’re good.
Jason I respect your opinion. I wish the best to you. I do have an observation after seeing an oddity over my years... ...I see many converts come to the restored gospel of Christ. They seem happy. They rarely talk about what religion they left rather they talk about what they found. I find it so interesting that almost all who leave the Church of Jesus Christ (a small insignificant church of maybe 5 - 8 million truly active members worldwide mind you) NEVER STOP TALKING ABOUT IT. They try to damage other’s testimonies, their faith, their leaders and their followers. Why do you suppose that is? It has always intrigued me... I mean, even lifetime members who either were super strong or less active or believing who couldn’t be bothered to pray or read even a bible verse a week, when they leave will then spend HOURS of their day reading and studying anti-literature. It’s always been a thing to spark my curiosity.
"If you have no standards for what counts as evidence, ANYTHING can count as evidence!! ...Uh ...but, well, you know, anyway; I don't want to go on at length about that..." - Daniel C. 'Standards for Evidence' Peterson
I am so grateful for the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The truth will go forth no matter what. As we earnestly seek to know the truth through God, reading, praying and putting truth to the test we will know the truth through the Holy Ghost. I am happy to answer any questions or engage in civil discussions. Questions, doubts, concerns are completely, valid and normal and it's about WHERE and HOW we go about working through these things and ultimately it can only be answered through God.
@@shawnbradford2243 Hopewell peoples of NA are the proposed Nephites. Their culture seems to reflect Hebrew culture around the same time period. Look up LDS Archeology on youtube. Interesting stuff.
Michael www.fairmormon.org/blog/2011/02/12/the-hopewell-culture-in-the-great-lakes-area-and-the-book-of-mormon Even your paid apologists say it’s not true!
14:26 Daniel Peterson "Don't make The Book of Mormon claim things it doesn't actually claim". The claim is whether the Lamanites are the principal ancestors or the current day Native Americans. We could answer that question if we knew the population of the American continent when Nephi and Lehi arrived. If it was already full, we can expect that Lamanites and their ancestors make up a tiny percentage of the Native Americans today. If the land was totally empty, we would expect a higher percentage. (Especially with the population really did rise to the millions just from Nephi and his siblings like the book said it did.) Jeffery R Holland in June 1976 Ensign, "Holy scripture records that “after the waters had receded from off the face of this land it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof.” (Ether 13:2.) Such a special place needed now to be kept apart from other regions, free from the indiscriminate traveler as well as the soldier of fortune. To guarantee such sanctity the very surface of the earth was rent. In response to God’s decree, the great continents separated and the ocean rushed in to surround them. The promised place was set apart. Without habitation, it waited for the fulfillment of God’s special purposes." Who are Mormons supposed to believe? The book of Ether and a current Apostle, or Daniel Peterson?
Hey Cody if you’ve read the Book of Mormon you would know the Lamanites meant Women from “another land” for all you know they are both right. Stop acting like it’s a choice to believe one over the other it’s not it’s very possible they are both right and very possible they are both wrong truth is you don’t know so let it go.
Key West Coder that’s an opinion. I’ve done all the research I’ve needed to do on the matter to conclude there is no solid evidence either way. Now with that being SAID Joseph Smith correctly predicted people would argue about this. That people would use his name for good and curse his name for bad. Like you just did now. Does it bother you that your proving him right in this very moment? Also he correctly predicted the beginning of the civil war, he correctly predicted that the world would see more natural disasters, he correctly predicted that the Church would grow into what it is today. Ultimately what’s interesting about Joseph Smith is many of the Principles he taught have a fundamental element of making sense. Take the fact that he taught drinking beer could be bad for your body and in some ways ruin your potential for the best being of yourself. Is that not true in today’s world? At the core of the church family is taught. You only have to look at what is happening in the Black community to understand how detrimental it can be when their is no culture of family. Crime goes up, children have it tougher, people are living off single parent income, parents struggle to provide for their kids. So I predict, you believe everything you see and need to do some research yourself. I have taken both arguments into consideration, I have read the CES letter and much more, and I’ve seen the length of what some people did to try and prove Joseph wrong. At the end of the day I can learn more by praying and reading scriptures than I ever could from hearing y’all gossip and bicker over “obvious evidences” especially when they aren’t very obvious they are biased and I don’t understand your satisfaction of trying to prove that to people.
Key West Coder yes I know these points very well most of them in the CES letter. Bear with me what if Joseph wanted to be seen as a fraud by some? It was already clear to him or at least he believed at that point some would believe him while others would hate him. So for all you know he could have intentionally misled. The other thing is your acting like to be a prophet of God means your perfect in all things. It’s not 100 percent proof of anything, it’s just an assumption because he was wrong about something that means he’s wrong about everything and so go back and do some research because he clearly got some things right. As for the Bible translations, you need stop acting like LDS people think Joseph is perfect. They believed he translated to the best of his ability. They believe he did so through the Holy Ghost and not through ordinary means. It 100 percent has to do with opinion and bias. I just told you. Your statement is a biased one. X means x so this means I’m right and your wrong is the strategy your using here. I never said you were completely wrong or right I said this is a matter of opinion and your only proving me right with these examples because even being right about one of his faults would not invalidate him as a prophet. 16 million people who think otherwise and act everyday in the spirit. You can not stop what the church is or the positive influence it has in people’s lives. Good luck continuing to degrade the church by attacking Joseph Smith. Many people will fall for your antics, but it’s all biased strategy. Again I don’t get the sick joy of smothering a man who’s not even alive to defend himself and by doing so trying to ruin the very belief of eternal happiness that was left by him. Good luck though.
Key West Coder yes I know these points very well most of them in the CES letter. Bear with me what if Joseph wanted to be seen as a fraud by some? It was already clear to him or at least he believed at that point some would believe him while others would hate him. So for all you know he could have intentionally misled. The other thing is your acting like to be a prophet of God means your perfect in all things. It’s not 100 percent proof of anything, it’s just an assumption because he was wrong about something that means he’s wrong about everything and so go back and do some research because he clearly got some things right. As for the Bible translations, you need stop acting like LDS people think Joseph is perfect. They believed he translated to the best of his ability. They believe he did so through the Holy Ghost and not through ordinary means. It 100 percent has to do with opinion and bias. I just told you. Your statement is a biased one. X means x so this means I’m right and your wrong is the strategy your using here. I never said you were completely wrong or right I said this is a matter of opinion and your only proving me right with these examples because even being right about one of his faults would not invalidate him as a prophet. 16 million people who think otherwise and act everyday in the spirit. You can not stop what the church is or the positive influence it has in people’s lives. Good luck continuing to degrade the church by attacking Joseph Smith. Many people will fall for your antics, but it’s all biased strategy. Again I don’t get the sick joy of smothering a man who’s not even alive to defend himself and by doing so trying to ruin the very belief of eternal happiness that was left by him. Good luck though.
I work in a profession that is very adversarial and disputes happen all the time. Often, it gets so bad that we have to find a third party to act as a judge and present written arguments to a 3rd party. I've come to learn how talented some people are in their ability to take the most honest and innocent of people and present them in a way so that they are perceived as malicious and deceiving. Truly, a talent that would make Shakespeare's Iago from Othello jealous. However, I've learned that people are often disingenuous in their "question" and only looking to "win" and not honestly find a solution. I get the sense that although there may be validity behind the CES letter questions, there is no sincerity behind it.
@Christian Frog The chapters that are repeated are repeated with good reason. For example, Abinadi repeats Exodus 20 because he is accusing King Noah and King Noah's priests that they are not keeping the law of Moses. Nephi quotes large amounts of Isaiah before and after telling us about different lessons he wants us to take from Isaiah. Jesus repeats Matthew 5-7 to the Nephites because they have not had a chance to hear the Sermon on the Mount. The use of quotations in the Book of Mormon actually provide great evidence of the Book of Mormon's complexity and coherence. For example, read Mosiah 2:12-13 and then read Deuteronomy 17:16-17 to see how King Benjamin is making an argument that he is the type of good king that Deuteronomy says and purposely uses key words from the Torah that the Nephites would have known.
Daniel Peterson is right. It is Jeremy who is standing at the wrong bush. But both seem to avoid the real issue. Can all of these things, this long list of difficult questions, exist and the church still be true? The answer is of course! Detractors and skeptics are always going to imagine problems where no problems exist.
@@robertrosskopf4641 I think it makes perfect sense that due to the existence of the CES letter, that a document of equal or greater length be compiled by the church to refute these claims. Peterson is indeed correct that there is a tactic to spew a massive number of claims at your opponent so they cannot refute all of them, but that only works in live debates or in time-constrained areas. While this instance is time-constrained, I believe his reason for dismissal of the claims of the CES letter is without proper evidence is not logically sound, and just because he is time constrained in this speech, that does not mean he is time-constrained elsewhere. The problem with the tactic of making so many claims your opponent cannot respond within the time frame is that when someone makes so many claims, they are easily refuted, whereas the claims of the CES letter are valid and have evidence in their favor. I understand that Mormons believe not only despite basic logic and without evidence in favor of their position, but must they also believe in spite of increasing evidence against their preposterous assertions?
Robert Rosskopf If you can show the Book of Mormon contains large amount of modern language plagiarized then the Book of Mormon is not ancient and modern. It becomes a fraud. The anachronisms the place names the mistakes from the 1789 KJV Bible and direct quotes of the KJV show it is a made up book. Since Joseph was a money digger, lied to his wife, lied about book of Abraham, lied about polygamy, lied about the Indians, lied about the first vision, lied about the gold plates, lied about men living on the moon, lied about the restoration,.....it kinda shows he was a liar. The would show the church is fraudulent to its very core.
If the ces letter is Gish gallop then this presentation was nothing than pig slop! Such sloppy framing of questions, with even weaker evidences. Taking the weakest arguments so the best apologetics "might" stand a change of you frame it right.
I wish there were some way to address Jeremy Runnells directly. I’m no stalker and have no patience for tracking someone down so I will post this here and hope it helps some poor person. You have erred, thinking that the Church is God or that his servants are pure and without blemish. You have not done that which all men are directed to do when presented with words that are not pleasing or trials which seem not to strengthen. You have done as Laman and Lemuel and attacked those who helped you. What does the Book of Mormon tell you regarding your misgivings? It begs you to forgive the weak words of the people who brought you the information and to pray to God in Heaven that he strengthen your faith. Faith in him, not his church nor his scriptures. You have put your faith into the arm of flesh, something the prophets of old warned all men not to do. Put aside your arrogant claims and go to God on high, ask him for forgiveness and ask him to direct you. He is there, he will admonish where he will, and he will give wisdom where he will. Ours is not to judge another for his weakness, it is to forgive weakness. Think I have no place to say these words? Then you do not understand the scriptures! Malachi told us to look for the coming of prophets, he told us what to look for. What have you looked for? Darkness and accusations. Know you not that if you stare into the darkness eventually the darkness looks back. You have made yourself as one of those spoken of by Isaiah “Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.”
So, to paraphrase - Jeremy's got it all wrong and should forget about all the lies and the abominations of Joseph Smith and his cronies in the LDS church, have a (humble and submissive) word with some imaginary geezer and voila, all the nastiness goes away. Go away, and quit regurgitating vacuous Mormon cult dogma which never helped anyone who ever really needed help, but which instead helps the cult continue to milk the deluded for their hard-earned cash. No-one who would defend Joseph Smith's criminal actions has any right to pontificate about others' failings, far less attempt to blame someone for pointing out the church's lies, obfuscation (such as Dan Peterson serves up here) and disinformation.
There is only one thing that I take issue with him here,especially since he stated himself that he didn't believe that the Nephites didn't travel that far, and yet he takes issue apparently with the heartland model?!? When on Zions camp march, Joseph stated that they were crossing the plains of the Nephites! Also, the hill Camorah is in the great lakes (seas) area! Also, the Lord sent Joseph to the Lamanites there as well as some to Missouri!!!
Another thing about it that most Anti-Mormons would just roll their eyes over is that it's not about the evidence. The evidence will come in time but you have to have faith. An open mind to things that don't at first seem likely or possible. You have to understand faith and how it coincides with your understanding of logic in order to gain enough understanding of the LDS Church.
Josh Ellermeier Animations Evidence has been found, patience is no longer the answer. I really would like to know how many of the individuals actually have read the Book of Mormon, d and c, and the book of Abraham. Everything that dan brought up in this video was not disproven. He only talks about how he has answers and never actually provides them. This is 50 minutes of a filibuster. I mean no harm to you or any other believing Mormon, but I would challenge you to read the books that the church claims is true, and read the ces letter. The concerns brought up in that letter are real. And before you knock it, just read it. Dan mentioned that science is illegitimate. Although I don’t believe in science religiously, I have been blessed with the opportunity to participate in some of the attempts to prove the Book of Mormon correct through archeological methods. I was a part of a team that attempted to do what every Mormon expects will eventually happen, prove the nephites, Lamanites, etc existed. Dan mentioned that we found the evidence of “small groups”, in Utah of Asian decented aborigines, the dna evidences we’re confirmed by tests performed, that we sent out to Harvard. This small group we found was indeed a small group. There is no evidence of any large cities in the americas. None. We have cave drawings from thousands of years ago, paintings, not buildings. The fact that paintings have survived but millions of inhabitant remains, and a city, just one, has not been found. As an archaeologist, this speaks volumes. The claims are false. The entire BYU archeological team left the church. The entire team. Regardless of what dan says, he was never involved, we were tasked to find evidence. It was simple. It was significant, 19 people, with hard, thumping testimonies, left the church. Please just read the ces letter, do a little research, it’s not that hard. The worlds past is becoming more and more clear with each passing decade. Try to have an open mind before you commit your life to something that doesn’t live up to the claims it produces.
Cabe Birge The CES Letter is over a hundred pages of every single argument made against the church long before they were brought up by the author of that specific CES Letter. Nothing new. And nothing that can tear down my faith in the church. I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God, that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the most correct church. Despite any arguments that come up, because nothing can compare to the spiritual experiences I've had to lead me to this conclusion. I'll give it another read with an open mind. Not open to changing my mind about the church, but open to understanding the author's concerns. Because I guarantee God has answers.
@@hotgrapescomics I agree, its nothing new. But have you read them. Its nothing new because the church's history has not changed. Evidences cant change either. I, too, refused to read anything regarding the fallacies of the church for a long time. But I got curious. Maybe you are stronger than i am, maybe you can read it and be perfectly fine. But seeing as its responsible for the leaving of nearly 15% of the church now, i dont think any person can state that it isnt worth reading.
Good luck to ya man, I personally think youve got a good head on your shoulders, you are watching fairmormon vids which means youre open to ideas. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you are, we all come to different conclusions, but either way, enjoy your sabbath and i appreciated the dialogue.
The CES letter is a trap for the prideful. The bait is the possibility of bringing back the lost sheep. Well meaning and innocent people are lured into an intellectual contest that only ends if they admit defeat, or somehow manage to answer every one of a long list of objections. And if the dupe is smart enough to work through every item on the list, they have stilled failed to prove that the church is true. So a win is still a loss. This game will never have a winner.
@@ozymandias6743 every question on there has been answered very thoroughly and yet this guy is still riding the wave of infamy that his letter caused. No, he isn't sincere.
@@ozymandias6743 You're welcome. I've been researching stuff like this for 40 years, and the scholarship is shoddy at best. No real effort is made to validate any of it. Like the city names that resemble the names in the Book of Mormon... a closer look reveals that many of these cities didn't exist when the Book of Mormon was published. Someone else claims that the first vision accounts didn't originally include God the Father, yet newspaper articles mention it. Assassination by accusation. That's all it is. I know both sides of the issues. We know what a hoax looks like. One of the most famous hoaxes is the Formosian hoax. A foreign gentleman was once the toast of England, having come from the far off land of Formosa (Tawain). He wrote a book detailing their culture, dress and religion. All of it was made up. All of it. When stories of Tawain from other sources didn't corroborate his book, the fraud was discovered. The opposite has happened with the Book of Mormon. Every couple of years, some small detail in the Book of Mormon is verified by scientists as either plausible or likely.
l think God gave Joseph Smith everything, even becoming great in Gods eyes! Brigham Young was gratefull that he even associated with Joseph Smith: Our minds readily reject the joseph smith first vision its so contrary to the way our minds are programmed to believe on false traditions! When l first read the BOM, l got scared it was so intriguing so fascinating so anti normal! l came to the conclusion that l would study this book for the rest of my life, connecting the dots and referencing the bible and D&C and Pearl of Great Price! Iam not the same person when l joined this great church: lam still reading, still praying, and still amazed that lam a member of this wonderfully church! The anti ex members have their justifications, l hope their happy: l know lam happy and excited with my journey! And wish these unhappy campers the best! Or wish these happy campers the best!
loved this guy. great information. would love to listen to him discuss on topics about it. will definitely do some more reading. wish Jeremy would do some real investigation.
You know, most people that I have met, that have decided to leave the church have done so because of moral or carnal sin. Or some other sinful weakness or practice. Then the reason for leaving is shrouded in not believing Doctrine or some such thing. In any event the Book of Mormon is an immovable object that can not simply be dismissed yet has to be to leave the church. This has been my experience.
This coming from a returned missionary, believing lds member of the church, having read the ces letter thoroughly, this talk by mr Peterson, IMHO, was absolutely terrible. You did not offer any convincing counter arguments to mr runnels points. You rambled on and on, trying to be funny, while not really addressing mr runnels points in a meaningful way. How sad to disparage someone who has honest questions about the church. It would be much more effective to simply say, I don’t have a good answer to the book of Abraham concerns. The truth is, Joseph missed the boat on interpreting the facsimiles. He misinterpreted more than 90% of the images in the facsimiles. I wish you could just admit that he got it wrong. The truth is, he did. Mr. Peterson, the truth is, you have made dallin oaks proud by coming up with any answer, no matter how far fetched it is. Congrats on at least that much!
The point was not to introduce counter arguments, as he said in the begging. It would take about 500 pages to respond to it, so, nevermind". He could have gone over a few, but I'm not sure what good that would have done considering there are full responses to it elsewhere and 95% would remain standing
@@urflofit2010 I used to think and say the same thing but if you look in to these things you realize the official narrative of the church is mostly wrong. Sorry to say it Shelly, but it’s true! Good luck with you!
Adequate answers? Seriously? The COJCOLDS dont have answers..... they sit there with their lies put there in front of them and then they have to go run and have the "prophet" come up with some "revelation" as to why something has to change.... change? Maybe for the LDS..... but God never changes.... I really doubt that God sits down with Russell and says "Russell, I change my mind on this matter....... maybe it should be this....... ".... Seriously people, you like all this change? It's because you guys are trying to believe this "lie"........ the Book of Napoleon..... the 1769 KJV issue.... View of the Hebrews, Book of Abraham..... man, it doesnt look good for you LDS folks.... hey, I understand, you grew up in this stuff.... you believe..... hey, that's ok, but when I see evidence as to JS being married to 30 plus women and the church only talking about Emma.... Somethings definately wrong..... all the church can do is have these people talk about Jeremy's lie...... but it's not a lie...... Why Ivans didnt talk to Runnels shows that the church has so many secrets and one by one, they are getting exposed...... No where to run, nowhere to hide Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints...... You are NOT the true church that you claim to be....... Days are numbered, my BREATHREN!!!!!
Huh? Why such enmity towards people who love their neighbors, and profess a love for God? That is the case in my neck of the woods anyway...perhaps not in yours however - for which I can only express sadness and disappointment. But alas, it's all scripted. Oh and one might view an all powerful being who's innate nature leaves open the possibility of faith-shaking change as part of His unchangeability.
marty martin because some of us have been in their position and know the lies the church tells us. It’s not for the members that anger is shown but for the leaders that knowingly mislead. People pay lots of money to the church and it disappears, they won’t say how it was spent and somehow the wealth of the church grows with very little to good works. They have a for profit arm that makes more money than tithes, where does the church get money to buy $32 billion in stock and $7 billion in for profit business??? That’s where tithe money goes, money given to god goes to for profit business, and it just so happens that the church leaders get high ranking positions in those companies where they get paid, off of church tithe. Add to that the lies about the history of the church and people get mad at the leaders and apologists that try and justify it with pure speculation and no evidence to back up their claims.
Shawn Bradford those who abuse their positions in God’s church here on earth will pay dearly in the afterlife. Eternity will be unkind to them. I choose to let them seal their own fate, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord. I trust God, I know that tithing and fast offering funds are used for good and if it happens to be used to save for an eventual rainy day fund then so be it. I’m in need of constant repenting. I’m a lowly, insecure and unimportant person in this church and I face temptation ALL THE TIME. I can only imagine the type of temptation of the members who are in “high power” positions. I’m sure some fall, and when they fall they fall hard and their actions could affect many and they well have their reward. I’m not sure what is going on that The Church has billions saved, or that a number of members abuse their positions and feed contracts and information to their friends and family so they can be worldly enriched (and I sadly and regrettably want to say “phuck you!” to these members as it happens here in Vegas more than we probably know- and they even have the gaul to often look down at struggling saints) but it is what it is. I am going to go and ask for forgiveness for my harsh words now. Good luck with your questions and your search for truth. May God lighten your loads and brighten your days. Cheers.
@@shawnbradford2243 it would be inefficient to not produce for themselves, the for profit parts fund the other good they do. You mentioned it making more than the church gets in tithing, so what if they can do twice the good? It would actually be negligent to not be able to.
Not all the concerns we're "directly" answered but the point I think is that the criticisms usually say "no evidence" or "no reason" and he's pointing out there are evidences and reasons for all the concerns if you are willing to look for them and willing to consider them. As he said early on many people "jump ship" after hearing about a "problem" but never try to find the answer.
@@102wingnut It's glaringly obvious (at least to the unindoctrinated) that what Dan Peterson is doing is nothing more than bluster, because he can't do much else, without looking like a fool. It's a cynical attempt to hide the truth while attempting to suggest some counter arguments which don't materialise, with trite ad hominem attacks on the author of the CES letter thrown around without justification. Minus the bluster and ad homs, he had nothing to say, and he took over an hour to say it. It was worthless poppycock from start to finish.
@@102wingnut the ces letter is 83 pages long, talks about very specific details, and addresses them with citations of talks and scriptures. In not sure how you can even try to say that
@@102wingnut I'm a fencer,i havent decided yet, but the more i see people like you try to deconstruct a document that they have not even read, the more i realize i attend a church full of sheep. You can call the ces letter a lot of things, id even accept "evil". But to fail to recognize its literate and precise nature only shows the ignorance present in your faith and knowledge of both doctrine and the history of the church.
The intelligent ones choose not to confront the issue there is a great culture in Mormonism that runs deep. The paid apologists and non intelligent Mormons are the ones that defend it (mostly poorly using frauds as “artifacts”)
I dont know what science you are looking at but there is a load more evidence for evolution than the BOM. My guess is that you have never studied evolution in depth.
This poor guy is trying to find almost anything just to cover the LDS church lies. He just tells people explanations about how ignorant and how stupid people are for reading the CES letter. Its sad because all he is trying to do is make it a joke and look how funny this is and have roll your eyes moments. He makes everything said in the book of mormon as a joke and no big deal that its not that accurate. But mormons live their lives around what that book is saying and teach their children to live by this. So I don't get how all of this is just a joke and no big deal and look how funny this is. So he's saying oh well if its not accurate and there are things that are questionable. People are stupid and silly for wanting to ask the hard questions and want an understanding of what is said. I guess they believe that faith means you trust this church and don't ask questions because that is so ignorant and ridiculous to do so.
There are careful analysis who go through the issues one by one, such as debunking-cesletter.com My favorite resource is LDS Truth Claims. It was put together by a distinguished lawyer and philosopher: ru-vid.com/show-UCBjPnxnaw6DKhNUqsPa7csgvideos If you want reasons to not believe in the LDS Church, you will find them in the CES Letter. As for me, I have satisfactory answers to all of my questions.
Yeah, it’s crazy. It’s like those poor people, they still believe all of this nonsense. I think this guy read it, and now he is uneasy trying to defend his faith. He’s so shaky. He’s trying so hard with the tone “nothing to see here, folks.” It’s so pathetic.
@@allim.5941 Wow you can read Dan's mind? Daniel C. Peterson has been a scholar of Mormon Studies for almost three decades. There is probably nothing out there for or against his position that he hasn't read. A flimsy compilation of same old attacks doesn't surprise him. You guys really need to accept that there are lots of very intelligent people who have read all you've read, thought all you've thought and still believed and are fine. The letter to a CES director isn't scholarship and has never been, and, in the same way as other apologetic 'big lists', contains cherry-picking, inaccuracies, spins, mistakes and in some cases intentional lies.
@@havegottogitgud1864 I think he understand very well that the church is false. That is why his defence is so rubbish. I also think Dan understands very well where his pay check comes from.
Nonesense. There has never been a day when the majority of people would wake up and believe the LDS church true. The atheists don't want to acknowledge God and the Deists don't want to switch faiths. Every time someone tries to explain LDS history with some new theory that doesn't involve God or angels, people grasp at it. What else would you expect them to do? It doesn't change the eye witness testimony. They can't change the fact the millions have already seen the truth. Some people are so desperate not to believe, that they scour history for the slightest indication of something that seems to need an explanation. Its called confirmation bias. What would a true church look like? It would look exactly like the LDS church. And that is a problem that won't go away.
Robert Rosskopf no it’s the problem of the historical claims of the bom are not true and the boa is a false translation of common Egyptian funerary papyrus add to that polygamy/polyandry, racism, abuse of finances ect...why do you think they have changed so much in the last 10 years?
@@shawnbradford2243 < it’s the problem of the historical claims of the bom are not true> Actually, they are true. People just don't want to believe it. As I already pointed out, the cataclysm of 3rd Nephi has exactly one plausible candidate, and it isn't in Africa or India or Europe or China. It is in America. That is just too much of a coincidence to be a coincidence. Bet Lehi or the House of Lehi, was excavated back in the sixties. He was known as the Prophet Lehi. So we actually have a plausible home for a wealthy man named Lehi as described in the Book of Mormon. The history of the Mayan people also claims that they were Israelites. The Lacondan Maya trace their ancestry back to Jawbone - the literal interpretation of Lehi. The Uto-Aztecan language family, which is related to the Mayan language, has both Hebrew and Egyptian words, according to the world's foremost authority on Uto-Aztecan.
@@shawnbradford2243 Unsubstantiated allegation. Nothing wrong with polygamy. No real evidence of polyandry. The belief in a premortal life and a pre-birth judgement is not racism. It is just an explanation of the great discrepancies in the world, not an excuse to treat anyone badly. No finances have been abused. You spread rumors that have been proven false. You want the church to be false so bad, that you don't even bother to look at both sides of the issues.
Robert Rosskopf yeah a volcano is evidence that exactly what all of history claims 🤣😂🤣😂 your so right you got it and the entire world is wrong...or volcanos erupt and earthquakes happen and your just saying it’s the same. Again not one single evidence of the Book of Mormon has been found. Go to your local university and ask if a volcano erupting is evidence a civilization existed (yet left no evidence of the actual civilization) your delusional in your justification
I listened to the testimony of the fellow he is straw-manning. I also listened to the guy who (since then) used big data and 21st Century digitized libraries of a vast set of works, with a focus on the one that is mentioned here (and brushed aside...."He jumped ship too early") show results of his sophisticated statistical analysis on the authorship of Mormon texts. It's online. The largest source the convicted con man, Joseph Smith used was The First Napoleon. Now you know and can cheer the dude who had the common sense to leave when he did, but common sense, since at least the knowledge of Smith's manufactured papyrus scam (the Book of Abraham), is a taboo and therefore, sinfully common lest the leadership loses the gravy train and their Kingdom of the Lord Dominionist plot goes all to hell. There's a fantastic video on their secret promise to take over and turn us all into Mormon Americans. There's a reason our ancestors chased these morally corrupt folks across America to the safety of an unincorporated desert wilderness. They are the world's worst neighbors. Takes something like ten pages of apologetic sophistry per page of pointed questions to respond to the guy, with the reason given being too ironic to pass up. I'm working off a geriatric memory but honestly paraphrased it was "It isn't like this top church leader's job is to answer this stuff, or he doesn't have time for this nonsense because he's too busy circle jerking imaginary Jeebus.... It was his freakin' job. Been incredibly damning to your scam though I think Hans Mattsen ordeal your worst international exposure.
ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-rHVh3bDYGRE.html I find this very interesting, these are called parallels, don't read if you're a scardy cat though, it's from Wayne May, showing quite a bit of information BOM references to archaeology alignments etc
Donna Vaughn Close as I ever got to Mormonism was being born in Omaha (Mormon Trail) and the closest I ever got to the imagined Baby Jeebus was the relationship I had with the imagined Happy Santa. All Gods are fake as tits on a pumpkin.
I just heard this, and it was pretty much very lame, I really wanted to listen thinking he was actually gonna have some legit, real stuff to answer back, yet all I heard was excuses, even excuses of possibilities that are minimum wanting to be true put as truths again, so disappointing, very disappointing. I just wasted an hour of my time, and I was really open to say come on give something good to really make me think, but all again disappointed as always by mormon "experts" on responding questions.
Mark should keep his fat trap shut. He is a shameless evolutionist, somebody who buys into the ridiculous proposition of the enemies of light and truth. Mind you, I am one who believes in Jesus Christ, that He created the world. That does not mean that I have the overly simplistic notions that most creationists have, but I certainly do not stand up and defend ridiculous notions like Mark here does. Furthermore, Mark has a well-deserved reputation for pathetic defenses. That's why people do not take him seriously. I've heard his talks, I've read his articles, I have seen him on RU-vid, and he does not argue well. He needs to start studying Linguistics. He also needs to get on his knees and pray for guidance, and rely on the Holy Ghost.
Corrected post: This man is not only extremely educated, which many others are that lack his reasoning power, but he also is extremely brilliant!!! I like his sense of humor also!
