Renly's Peach - A New Layer of Tragedy 

Is that you George? did you get tired of writing and just want to explain it all to us? 😂 sir this is mind blowing. I love how all your theories connect

Stannis: I love my dead, gay brother

I find the idea of the gods forgiving murder but finding the breaking of guest right to be unforgivable super interesting when you consider the message George is trying to portray. Perhaps this is his way of admitting that sometimes war is necessary (and thus forgivable), but what is truly an unforgivable sin is betrayal, brutality, and an unwillingness to opt for diplomacy in favor of bloodshed.

This also lends some credence to one of my favorite lines from the show - "Born amid salt and smoke, is he a ham?" Maybe he is!

That Peach 🍑 was from Highgarden. Renley was offering Stannis a chance to share the bounty of an alliance with The Tyrell’s. That way they could rule together, with Stannis as Hand of The King, and be prepared, with a strong Realm, as Winter approaches. What do you think? I love your guest right theory, too!

Neato. If you think of it as a true "Shadow Baby", then it was effectively Stannis's "Son", making it Renly's "Shadow Nephew", so to speak. GRRM calls it a "baby"/offspring for a reason, or I think he would've just called it a "shadow" too. I like the idea of Guest Right playing such a prominent role in all these various meetings, as well. Again, GRRM is emphasizing it in virtually every culture for a reason, and there is plenty of real world practice to back it up. Even the story of Sodham & Gomorrah, ultimately revolves around maintaining Guest Right traditions. See you in the streams.....

Guest Right is more involved than just eating, Stannis, and Renly met on neutral ground, armed, and armoured, neither were in position to give, nor receive guest right, the peach is significant enough without this added complexity. Kinslaying is an equivalent crime, equally reviled by the gods yet Renly died, did you ever stop to consider why these taboos exist in the first place? Because society needs them, for the simple reason that these crimes are committed, if the gods could enforce their laws they would, but they can't, so the curses are invented. Don't get me wrong I 100% believe you are on to something as regards to the Others also respecting guest right, and that that will play its part. Foreshadowing: "I do not know how you observe guest right on your mountain, ser. In the north we hold it sacred. Wun Wun is a guest here." Ser Patrek smiled. "Tell me, Lord Commander, should the Others turn up, do you plan to offer hospitality to them as well?"

This has to be why GRRM wrote it to where he actually had a peach on him at all, AND took a bite of it. If GRRM only wanted him to make a point about Stannis slowing down and enjoying life he could have had him mention going back and sitting to chat and have himself one of the wonderful peaches from Highgarden.

Another implication that we’re overlooking is that this might also (and could exist concurrent with the guest right) indicate Renly also actually loves his brother and was sincerely offering him a suggestion/wish that Stannis would allow himself some happiness. Because happiness is really what Renly believes in, and the part of him that loves Stannis and just his general ethos might be truly trying to reach through to Stannis and offer the idea that Stannis is the man who stands in the way of Stannis’ happiness, that he could make different choices and actually be happy.

How could it be guest right when they were on neutral ground and at a parley? I mean I guess technically they were at storms end but renley left afterward so how would guest right still apply? It was a peach from highgarden. Robert talked about them earlier in AGOT with Ned. It just shows how different Stannis is from his brothers and how renley and Robert appreciate the beauty in life while Stannis and Ned are stiffies who live only for duty.

Every time Renlys peach is mentioned something stirs deep in my heart

HARD disagree on this. You're looking for mechanical reasons in a universe that explicitly focuses on characters. A character will not talk so long about the mechanics of magic but much more about their own beliefs and emotions. Guest rites aren't just food. You need to sleep under their roof. It's a cultural thing, not a godly thing. Especially as we have as close to conformation as possible in a limited POV story that old gods do not mean real gods that created the universe or nature in the vein of christianity or similar creationism stories, but it's the spirits/consciousnesses of greenseers and children of the forest/singers entering the weirdwood network, similar to a existing online or uploading your consciousness into a computer. These skinchangers in these networks seem to be able to interact with people in the past, cause they can skinchange/enter weirdwoods, whom are explained to not exist in time the same way other creatures do. Tl;dr: The peach is, as you correctly pointed out, actually Renly telling Stannis to enjoy things in life, not tricking him into a ceasefire. It's layered and talks about character, not gods using magic to limit stuff.

Hey, I think you’re doing a great job with this channel and your ASOIAF theories. I’ve got a couple of ideas for you if you’re interested. 1. Keying in on the symbolism you’ve identified regarding the shadows, check out the last Tyrion chapter in AGOT and the way Gregor Clegane is described. I have strongly suspected since The Mountain’s transformation into Robert Strong, and specifically when he refused to die despite his poisoning, that he was very likely under the influence of some kind of magic, probably going back to the events of Robert’s Rebellion, and that in fact he may be possessed by the consciousness of some other character, in the same way Bran is able warg into Hodor, probably due to some kind of vulnerability that humans with any trace of giant’s blood have in the ASOIAF universe. If you look at every scene the Mountain appears in, or is mentioned, I think you will see the clues as to who I think may be somehow living, more like hiding, inside the Mountain’s mind, or at least who was before his latest transformation. I strongly suspect this is one of the deepest hidden mysteries in the series, so I don’t want to give it away, in case I ever want to try to make a video myself, but if you can figure it out first have at it! 2. It seems to me that the construction of Harrenhal, a giant castle built right next to the God’s Eye controlled by Iron Islanders descended somehow from ‘squishers’, was clearly the inciting incident that drew Agon and his sisters to conquer Westeros after their lost civilization of Valyria for never entirely explained reasons stayed out of Westeros after ruling most of Essos for thousands of years. Agon treats Harren the Black completely differently from all of the other lords in Westeros, requiring him not only to bend the knee but to specifically LEAVE Harrenhal. Why? Figuring that out I think is one of the core mysteries of the series too and I don’t have a theory but I know it’s important. Identifying really which are the factions among men, and the Children, and maybe the elemental forces of fire, water/ice, and maybe Earth, and what these factions/forces want, is one of the toughest mysteries of the books. If you can sort any of that out I’d love to see a video on it! Either way keep making good theory videos!

I think he was definitely offering guest right with the beach, but the shadow baby was already okay with kinslaying.

New to your channel and still binging, so maybe I haven’t found it yet. But have you connected the house words to your theory? Made me think of the Tyrell’s “Growing Strong”. Olenna didn’t appreciate it, but maybe it was a clue 🤷🏻‍♀️

"The sweetness of life he refuses to taste?" What's sweeter than being king, Michael? 😉

Renly was awfully fruity lol

I don't see how the gods' proscription of harming host or guest makes it IMPOSSIBLE to do so (IE, preventing Renly's death) The gods are said to punish it when guest right is broken, and the Freys break it; the norm doesn't prevent its own violation, it deters through the faith sanctions must follow such violence to "avenge" the violation of guest right.

About your last point, i think the shadow can kill renly because he is not really king, not until Stannis dies.

8:01 Kin slaying leads to ultimate demise. THANK YOU!!! I love this theory because it backs up another idea about the ultimate demise of another character and the unseen kin slaying but drops hints from the first chapter. NED STARK IS A KINSLAYER. That was his ultimate demise, not randomness from Joffrey. Again, Ned’s death IS the number one “WHAT IF” of the entire story. GRRM has a writing “tell”. He tells the same stories repeatedly but changes the characters, and depending on the version, he may leave out some details. However, if you find the “twin” story, it is easier to fill in the gaps. I have had this theory about Ned for years. Still, I think that you just found the “twin” (and in some cases, a triplet is found) version of these pathetic male characters being done in by their own “virtue” because of their inflexible slavishness to “the old ways” and tradition. Both men can not see the forest for the trees. How pathetic was it that the first reaction Ned had to see the dire wolf pups was to KILL them? My god, WHAT IF Ned killed the pups? The sigil of his own house has not been seen for 100 years. His judgement is skewed, he had just killed the desserter who even 10 year old Bran could tell was telling the truth. What if, Ned hadn’t KILLED the desserter and listened to him and tried to unite the kingdom. When Robert declares that Dany must be killed Ned disagrees… but Robert was right and everything he feared in the end came true. Robert the drunken king was seen as inferior to Ned and Ned the righteous but in fact it was reverse. Ned was a dolt clinging to traditions that no longer served him or his family. Ned like Stannis has always been haunted from killing his sibling. I am 99.987% sure that Ned killed Lyanna. The smoking gun of Ned’s trechery is when he offered to KILL Lady. He not only KILLS Lady but he ensures that the bones are brought back to Winterfell and put in the crypt… sound familiar of another “lady” of Winterfell whose bones were supposedly brought back to Winterfell and put in the crypt. Why? Because like the desserter, it had to be done according to the old ways. Lady and Lyanna had been judged guilty regardless of the circumstances that one was an ancient sigil and the other a sibling. The scene we see in the Tower of Joy is a lie. It is the 3 Eyed crow’s version of what happened. A pantomine played out for the sake of getting Bran’s trust. (In fact, I went back to look and there is a woman in the tower that could be “Nettles” and Ned in that scene only has three fingers (like old Nan) someone was imitating Ned. Why? Because of the old ways being guest rights and kin slaying however in the North it includes incest. Ned killed Lyanne because B+L=J (Benjen + Lyanna = Jon). He then sent Benjen to the wall instead of making him his bannerman. THIS is why Ned showed Cersei compassion when he found out that her children were from incest with her brother Jaimie. Ned knew that Cersei would be killed if the truth came out because he killed his sister for the same thing. My guess is that something shocked Ned into NOT killing the child because he wanted to just like he wanted to kill the dire wolf pups. Ned’s ultimate demise is because of kinslaying just like Stannis.

7:52 Why would he take that chance? He might have gotten a strangler peach from his sneaky little brother.

I would say it was kind of a slay when Renly overstepped his brother, not really a major violation but a move away from tradition for sure.

I just started reading the books. I'm on COK and I thought when Patchface's reference to shadows and "dancjng" was referring to dragons.

I still think Patches was singing about the assassination of Renly by shadow.

Could the peach be Renly offering Margaery as a new wife? We know that Margaery was supposed to be Robert's new wife if Renly was successful.

Stannis the Mannis knew the peach was bait. Lol

That was a nice analysis! I'd heard characters more specifically insist on eating bread and salt on the table or under the roof of a host - are those required for the guest right to be granted, or would a peach offered in the open field suffice?

It's interesting to think of Maester Cressen's attempt to assassinate Melisandre in this context - either magically or symbolically - how Melisandre knew Cressen was trying to assassinate her, even put the fool's hat on him, everybody tried to tell him not to do it or not to go to the dinner, but he did it anyway and it didn't work and instead he died. The Strangler poison he used is a crystallized purple plant extract - perhaps similar to something like Shade of the Evening in how it works. It might be magical. And with it being magical and Melisandre being magical, maybe she was protected from its effects by magical guest right at Stannis's table, and Cressen wasn't because he broke it. Especially when you consider that Melisandre doesn't need to eat or drink but shared the dinner anyway. You could compare it to the assassination of Joffrey also with The Strangler - perhaps one reason that the poison was in Sansa's hair is that Joffrey has violated hospitality with Sansa so many times that he has defaulted - magically or more likely symbolically - on guest right specifically with respect to her in a way that he maybe hasn't with other people, which makes her an instrument for killing him. Possibly. Even if it's just symbolic - the idea that there's this question at feasts of whether the people there have violated guest right or not and what that means for whether or not they die - once you start looking for it there's a lot of variations on it in the story.

WOW Guests rights are so powerful.

Ahh I’d love to eat Renly’s peach

But i thought he was the cucumber

Talking about symbolism: hidden in plain sight is the image of the Yin and Yang symbol which is illustrated by Waymar’s duel with the “white shadow” as seen from Will’s perspective. Waymar, against the backdrop of a ridge covered in a thin crust of snow, “dress all in black”, “turning in a slow circle, suddenly wary, his sword in hand” perfectly resembles the black dot in the white half of the circle. The “white shadow” stands in for the white dot in dark half of the symbol. Remember? The white shadow that “emerged from the dark of the wood”. The sinuous line that separates them is symbolic of the flowing graceful movements of the “dance”. The two combatants, at least symbolically, complement, and mutually exist symbiotically. Much like a shadow owing its birth to light. “In the light, we read the inventions of others; in the darkness we invent our own stories. ”, says Alberto Manguel.

if Stannis ate Renly’s peach, that would be incest

Oh, dip, Renly was offering not to have Stannis killed in the battle...

🤯 and then when you combine this with the idea of Khal Drogo breaking guest right with Viserys when he killed him at Vaes Dothrak, what happened in that tent with Miri Mazduur starts to make perfect sense.

wow that's fascinating

i think theres a difference in guest right and kin slaying, guest right gives you protection under man and gods and your idea of gods and others having to follow guest right as its an old rule/magic whereas kin slaying is more a 'its bad to kill your kin' if you do it without the right reasons- referring back to your giving babies to the children of the forest which could be considered giving them to die. but it maybe coming into a karma type situation, kill your kin for the 'wrong' reason and you get cursed but not necessarily killed, the weight is on your soul verses kill someone under guest rights and vengeful gods will punish you/ send punishment

Algormancy!

He could eat a peach for hours.

I thought the Highgarden peach represented Margaery Tyrell eh... you know peach as in the emoticon. Bu then we find out about Renly's preference and there is Loras Tyrell .. er backend peach.

Ironic I just read this chapter last night 😂

Interesting series man

Kinslayers never do well... I

As a gay dude, the Renly’s peach sexual innuendo blinded me from further analysis about why Stannis thought about that peach. I’d just read it and laugh at the homosensual subtext GRRM throws out now and again. Thanks for this

Great video. I do not think the “Gods” do anything at all in the story. I think there is magic, that the characters within the story attribute to the gods. It isn’t really GRRM’s writing style to have Gods making people act or work through people. The Damphair is a great example. Characters in this world attribute the things they do and see to gods because there is magic. But I don’t see him writing about gods giving people powers to wage war on each other. I think the Weirwoodnet is a hive mind of millions of souls that a greenseer can access and utilise. I don’t believe there are tree gods and fire gods and water gods. Whether all magic is derived from the same source and just used in different ways, or many forms of magic all balancing each other out. I think it is just that. Magic. People do like to anthropomorphise basically anything and everything. So a tree with a face…. Again. Great videos. Keep up the good work mate.

Stannis didn't love his brother enough to let him live though... Renley's death was too sudden and pointless. At least Drogo's death allowed Dany to become the mother of dragons. What purpose did Renley's death actually serve, other than to simply narrow down the number of kings fighting for control after Robert's death?

Was Mel protected from the poison wine because of guest right

My dude you are so correct

I do like this theory. I'm just struggling with how you get them to accept being guests. Or mayhaps, somehow accepting something from the Others placing humans under their protection. This is an interesting take on the peach. Not everything means the same everywhere perhaps, but how would you contrast this against Dany's peach? It may or may not relate, but would you consider there to be a parallel or contrast with the juice running from his mouth in the same way grease does in other situations? Visually do you imagine the juice as red, orange, or yellow?

No

oh that's sneaky but would have made for poor TV :))

Wrenly was GAY, what if he offered Stannis his peach and Stannis refused when they were young, funny if that's the case.

Fun but very far fetched based on other far fetched ideas

I'm a little disappointed that you don't describe the real world 'guest rights' and identify that GRRM as a progresive may be advocating for them - something from the old world that we've forgotten that used to bind us together, something that could replace the fear of the M.A.D. world. In a harsh world prior to the magic of our technology you had to rely on guest right as both guest and host to survive collectively, and any violation could be punished in extreme. It is a social contract that crosses regions and religions before even the idea of a nation state. The only time in my life I had something like a feud it was because someone violated guest right - someone from the same culture as me who understands, even if only implicitly in these modern times because we don't tell the stories anymore, that guest right is sacred and inviolable. It extends beyond protection from harm in to host offering rituals and has many dimensions depending on the culture. In any large modern city today you will find descendants of the Irish, Greeks or Iranians who have some built in cultural understanding of guest right that they have only been alienated from in a few generations if it has happened. The Irish in particular were reading Greek tragedies before the early Christianisation of Ireland, long ago.

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