Repertoire: Mahler's Problematic Tenth Symphony 

Ormandy, Chailly, and Sanderling are the greatest. It's my favorite Mahler symphony. I think the Finale is one of the most beautiful, moving pieces of music I've ever heard. Mahler gives us a shattering victory over death through art.

Mahler 10 is my favourite of his symphonies! The whole conception is so wonderful, I can forgive the rough patches.

For the first time last summer before I found your channel, I had did a long overdue Mahler cycle listen because I hadn't before. And to my surprise I had ABSOLUTELY no clue that he had a tenth that went unfinished. It was baffling to me because Mahler is one of favorite composer and for the decade or so that I've been playing an instrument and knew about Mahler, 1-9 was only evered mentioned to me. So when I actually listened to the 10th I was blown away by how it sounds and I've been hooked on trying to find completed recording....but then I found out that there's a crap ton of sketches and I gave up. Then looked up the scherzo and purgaturio along with the 1st movement and found your video coming in CLUTCH ONCE AGAIN! Thanks again for the help and now I can listen to the best version of the first 3 movements because the other two kinda stink to me.

You can only experience a first hearing of a Mahler symphony once in your lifetime. For me, when as a young man in college I heard the Rattle/Bournemouth recording, it blew me away. I've never heard anything so heartfelt, so perfectly realized as this Mahler 10th recording. I dare you to listen to the first 4:30 of the finale and tell me that this conductor and this orchestra don't have Mahler in their souls. And those hammer blows! I've never heard anything like it in other Mahler 10th recordings. The whole performance is devastatingly, achingly beautiful. I've heard many other fine recordings of the work, but in my opinion, this one is the most moving of them all.

I am greatly enjoying your channel. Thank you for the videos! And, for what it is worth, you have spurred me to spend actual $$$s to enlarge my personal library for the first time in years with your recommendations.

I have always thought that given how much Mahler revised his symphonies after performance that the late works might have changed as well had he lived long enough to direct performances of them. I strongly think that a genuinely complete 10th from Mahler himself would have been very different to what we have. I find the Adagio on its own such a magnificent piece of music I am happy that it survived (even then I am not sure it would have remained exactly as it is had Mahler lived to complete it).

THERE IS ONLY THE ADAGIO!!! This is heartbreaking. What a gorgeous, beautiful adagio it is. Enjoy it. We're lucky to have it.

I’ve collected many 10ths over the years and I have always been drawn to the recordings that I really enjoyed regarding the overall performance and interpretation, with the details of the various reconstructions being much less of a concern. That said, thank you for your insights regarding all of the available versions of a completed score. I’m eager to dig into my discs and revisit them with a more discerning ear regarding the success or failure of each version.

I completely agree that the symphony really shouldn’t have been completed, and all performing versions expect Cooke are unmahlerian trash, especially Barshai. You’re completely right on why Cooke is so good too, he does the least and doesn’t pretend that we can know all of what Mahler wanted with a completion not by the guy himself. However, I’m extremely grateful for the Finale, which (despite it’s errors you pointed out) is some of the most beautiful stuff Mahler wrote, in my opinion. The beginning dark atmosphere with the big military drum thud thing that quotes the Purgatorio is so wonderfully dark, and the flute solo after it is one of his best ever solos, transcendent beauty. And the main theme after the flute solo in B Major! God! I honestly think it may be the most beautiful melody I’ve heard. Mahler is, I think at his best when he writes more simple things like this. And the sort of climax or string chorale (titled Immer Langsam, I believe) is the most passionate thing I’ve ever heard from Mahler. It seems like the orchestration through out the whole thing (though we can really only use the Adagio for an example) was attempting a whole new modern atmosphere for his music, and I think, if he finished it, would be one of the most important symphonies, and maybe his best. Some of the stuff you can use in a film score today and no one would scrunch an eyebrow and notice. In all, if I got a Time Machine, the only thing I’d do is try and prolong Mahler’s life so he can truly finish it.

I first heard the symphony via Szell's Cleveland recording of the Adagio and Purgatorio and still rate it very highly, especially the single layer SACD. Of the various Cooke completions, I have the Ormandy, both Rattle's - there are moments when I prefer the earlier Bournemouth performance where I feel there is sometimes more vitality in the playing - and the Seattle/Dausgaard, which I also think is very fine.

Glad you mentioned Ormandy. Thank you.

I agree with your call & also endorse Deryck Cooke's. Have you any thoughts on Tovey's completion of Bach's Art of Fugue? Really love your go to performance choices. Thank you!

I really enjoy the enhancements (percussions, xylophone) added to the Gielen+SWGRSO performance, but overall I think Dausgaard+SSO is my favorite. The recent Vänskä+Minnesota recording is great, too.

Thomas Dausgaard with Seattle!!! This is the one. I know Chailly and Rattle well, then Dausgaard blew me away. Also, Montreal OM under Nézet-Séguin is surprisingly good. I am so thankful that Cooke prepared a preforming version of this incredible work.

Dear Dave, thanks for your recommendations! I didn’t knew Dausgaard’s recording before. But now it has become one of my favorites. In your talk you only mentioned competitions of M10. What do you think are the best Adagio only recordings? - If there are any better one then those from the “full” versions you mentioned... Maybe for those who only want what Mahler really wrote.

Can't argue over Ormandy, Gielen and Sanderling - Gielen's probably my favourite overall, but the other two are excellent. I have a soft spot for Berthold Goldschmidt's recording of the première performance on Testament; mostly for "historical" reasons, but also because it has a fascinating illustrated talk about the symphony and its reconstruction by Deryck Cooke himself.

Yes, my goodness Sanderling's Mahler 10 is of divine quality.

David, have you listened to Wigglesworth's rendition with the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra? If so, what do you think of it? (If not, please consider giving it a try)

As I only care about the finished 1st movement, the Adagio, do any of you recommend a best recording of that? Of the 21 recordings I've heard so far, the 1965 Ormandy/Phila is the most ravishing to my ears, with a pretty daring stereo soundstage, and the 1986 Chailly the most perfectly conducted, exquisitely tense and immersive, especially over the alternately catastrophic and redemptive final 8 minutes.

Dave, any thoughts on Sanderling's Mahler 9 and Das Lied von der Erde that come with his 10th by Berlin Classics?

David, thanks for this discussion! I have always loved some of the moments in the unfinished portions, especially in the Finale. But, I listen to it acknowledging it for what it is, a case of "what if?" The Ormandy was really fine, so underrated. The Chailly is great! Your opinions on conductors and large forms is spot on...a lost art in some ways... Have you ever visited the site in Vienna where Mahler died? There is a commemorative plaque on facade of the building, quoting from the opening of the 10th. Quite moving to stand there.. Lastly, do you feel the same about the Mozart Requiem?

What are your recommendations for just the adagio?

David, you have a great sense of humour! Your kitchen sink analogy of Barshei's version gave me a good laugh! Do you know anything about Mark Wigglesworth's BBC live recording of Mahler 10th Cooke version...and the coughing campaign behind it? I think personally this performance has never been surpassed for its raw energy and intense beauty at the closing - sadly marred by outrageous coughs (possibly on purpose). It was issued with the BBC Music Magazine. I hope they reissue it without coughs one day...if that's possible by today's technology.

All said and considered, I own and listen to the Ormandy version. The orchestra sounds wonderful and Ormandy makes it work PLUS I studied with the principal Trumpet. I also don't listen to it as a "Mahler " symphony, but more as a study/arrangement.

What are your thoughts on the completions/truncations/reassemblages of Mozart's Requiem and Mass in C minor?

Gielen and Sanderling have excelled in other Mahler symphonies so I'm not surprised at your conclusion. Although not quite top-tier, I enjoy the Ormandy and Dausgaard versions. I also agree that Ormandy's Bruckner is underrated, especially the 5th.

I’m about 15 years younger than you. If the lifespans work out right, I’ll start publishing my completions of Hurwitz reviews and tell them how you were secretly a big Currentzis fan.

You are wonderful, Mr. Hurwitz! Thanks for sharing your opinions. 💛🎵💛

Great commentary and great recommendations! I love the Dausgaard/Seattle one for Cooke III - it's similar to Ormandy, but with updated sound quality. For variety, I do occasionally enjoy hearing the Samale/Mazzuca version (Exton). Regardless, I agree with your points and your recommendations.

My favorite of the two movement version remains Szell’s. Of the completed work I like every Mahler fan I knew got Ormandy on LP. I still preferred Szell in the Adagio and Putgatorio, but Ormandy was fine overall. On CD I have Rattle/Berlin, Chailly, and Dausgaard. I like them all for different reasons, but my favorite is Dausgaard’s swift, sonically terrific account. Agree, that I don’t listen to it as often as I do the other symphonies, except for the 8th which I have never taken to.

There's too much original music out there to hear, to worry about completions. I have just listened to Peter Boyer Symphony No 1 (Naxos) with a marvelous Adagio! Deserves highest praise..

GREAT VIDEO DAVE!!!

Thank you for a good, very timely discussion. I have never wanted to listen to a Mahler 10 completion other than Cooke's; that may not be fair, but I don't see the point of numerous different attempts to complete the piece, and I like what Cooke has accomplished. I have heard Morris (on LP), Ormandy, Rattle/Bournemouth, and Rattle/BPO, which is my current favorite despite sounding somewhat lightweight, as you say. I imprinted on the Ormandy back in the 1970's and it is excellent.Will check out the Sanderling very soon. Thank you!

The work is very interesting and contains quite amazing music, but I think the finale is largely under-orchestrated compared to how Mahler would have realized it if he had worked the draft through to a finished version. This is quite in tune with what Cooke set out to do, of course; he didn't want to add on big clouds of speculative new orchestrations; it's just that some people listening to Mahler/Cooke don't recognize that the work rem ains a "performance version" of the draft!). Much of the fifth movement is played by small chamber groups in piano or pp, a very low level of sound: this can work tolerably well for modern audiences because we're used to being able to go back, listen and relisten at leisure when a work interests us, or even turning up the volume knob at such places. In Mahler's day, the technology of recording music for playback later was in its absolute infancy, and the ONLY way to get to hear anything extended was to hear it live, right where it was played. And Mahler's own symphonies were not near as popular in his lifetime as they are now (of course) so it was important (to him) that they would get to make an impression already by one single, non-repeatable performance. So, a symphonic finale that's largely played by only fractions of the orchestra in pianissimo would not have been seen as a valid resolution to this massive work, not by audiences at the time and most likely not even by the composer himself. Mahler surely envisaged a grander and richer orchestration for this one, a movement that was important to him both as a personal and musical statement. I agree about Simon Rattle's recording from 2000 with the Berlin Philharmonic, it's a very cohesive and luminous one, not overly heavy, and a version that respects the diversity of styles in the work.

I sometimes see the painter, Munch's, "The Scream" when hearing the big moment in this work.

What are your thoughts on performing Mahler's 10th as a transcription rather than a completion? There are a couple of transcriptions for two pianos around, for example. Since most of what is missing is the orchestration, a transcription feels to me like a way of presenting Mahler's conception of the work without too many questions about instrumentation getting in the way. I agree with you on the problems of trying to complete Mahler's work, but the tenth (unlike the finale of Bruckner's ninth) feels like a complete enough conception that it deserves to be listened to in some form.

Very interesting Video. What do you think about the Samale-Mazzuca-Phillips-Cohrs-completion of Bruckner 9? I think it's pretty much the same case as with Cooke's Mahler 10, far from perfect, but the only one that's halfway decent

You make a good case and cause me to reconsider.

I’ve listened to your favourites, and I still prefer Wyn Morris for a couple of moments: his sudden Tutti in the Adagio has the most startlingly instantaneous attack (and I wonder how you get That WHAM!). I also love his tempo when the flute comes in in the finale, which the others seem to elongate into treacley hyper-‘expressivity’

I wonder how Mozart's Requiem sits in this framework. Or Berg's Lulu.

Interesting that your top two choices come from orchestras that are not considered major league, although I have enjoyed recordings by both of those orchestras in the past. In that regard, I have had Eliahu Inbal's Mahler 10th recommended to me many times, and his Frankfurt band is not particularly major league either. Thank you for the recommendations!

What do you think about the version with Daniel Harding?

Any thoughts, feelings about the Mark Wigglesworth recording of 10? I am no expert on these matters.

David, what do you think, in principle, about composers that take another composer's unfinished work as the basis for their own composition, such as Helge Evju did with Grieg's sketches for the 2nd Concerto (ignoring the specific example)? BTW, a hearty disagree here. I want to hear it all, sketchy completions included. Art is also about variation, "riffing", experimentation, trial and error, seeing what sticks.

[English is not my first language, so I may not have chosen the nicest wording but I really hope this doesn't sound rude. It's just a genuine question that I have.] Something I never understood is how you could write about Noseda's Mahler 10 that "In the second movement he’s far too slow; the music lacks the requisite snap and urgency" while at the same time recommending Sanderling, being that the Scherzo lasts 12:46 under Noseda, but 13:10 under Sanderling. OK, you may say, maybe Sanderling spends more time with the slower parts of the movement? Nope, Sanderling reaches that Waltz-like melody in E-flat at 3:34, while Noseda reaches it earlier, at 3:29. So I'm really puzzled. I ask because I really admire your work and love your no-nonsense attitude, and I'm sure you have a sensible explanation for this.

You inspire me, David. Maybe I'll try my own hand at completion...and then transcribe it for marching band.

The various Elgar completions are superfluous, but I like most of the other famous completions, which have given us some good music which would otherwise be unknown. Sussmayr's completion of the Requiem, which uses tunes so good they can't be by him, and must be Mozart. All those pleasant early Schubert piano sonatas. Providing a head for what I always found an unsatisfying torso (Bruckner 9). But I wonder how you feel about that flute solo in the finale of Mahler 10? For me it seems a totally wrong choice of instrument.

At 1:00 in: Dave, I agree, but I fear that things can only get worse. I am alluding to the potential chaos that Artificial Intelligence will bring to the mix. It's already started with a slew of "in the style of..." mash-ups, and it will only get worse when our computer overlords begin to consume unfinished symphonic manuscripts and orchestral fragments. In the words immortalized by Slim Pickens in Blazing Saddles, "I am depressed..."

It's like how many times Mozart's Requiem has been completed by others. Though I'm guilty of buying so many versions of that work.

I know this is out of the clear blue, but I think I've figured out why you like Cooke's version of Maher's 10th best (and I agree it's the best overall, though I like some aspects of some of the others better). His rendering uses a rute. LOL !!!!! Again, I love your strong opinions and your great sense of humor.

This is not a completion, it’s finishing the missing orchestration. Mahler wrote the music to the end on 2 staves. This is not patching random sketches together. Add to this the totally competent yet sel-effacing work of Cooke.

I agree with your views on Sanderling Gielen and chailly.However the rest aren't very good at all.

Unfortunately the dilemma for Mahler lovers is that we are always curious to hear just a little bit more. Of course we know it's not Mahler's final word, but I think we want to grasp the beauty that's still there, that we know is still Mahler's.

If you enjoyed Rattle/BPO Mahler 10th maybe you should give a chance to Rattle/BPO Bruckner 9, this is the only completion that really works in my opinion. I also heard most every B9 completion out there and I agree most of those are meh at best. Also thanks for pointing out Chailly, I guess getting the full boxset is the way to go, even though in Maher I highly prefer getting separate recordings of particular performances I am interested in.

I must have kind of a morbid fascination for “Mahler’s Tenth”, because I own about a dozen recordings. The Cooke performing version is the best. My favorite recording is Rattle with the Berlin Philharmonic. Chailly and Sanderling are great. The Clinton Carpenter “realization” sounds goofy and weird to me.

Doesn't bother me a bit. Mahler sketched it through completely, with instrumental indications. It's a complete skeleton, and like facial reconstruction, we can tell what skin would have gone over the bones. And it's a thrilling piece!

I agree that Cooke’s version may be the best, but Mazetti to me is a close second. The rest is um........questionable.

Barshai's version has a lot of problem, but I'd say he did a really good job with the Finale. The faster tempo made the ending section after the scream one of the most emotional and beautiful passage I've ever heard in Mahler's music. The greatest problem I have with the Finale is the middle section. I get that it's a very good contrast that leads to the ending, but it is way too long, so much to the point it becomes boring.

Just found the channel and am binge-watching, playing catch up. Relieved to find the one classical review channel on RU-vid that isn't just a bunch of old white dudes with no classical knowledge pulling out a bunch of classical thrift-store vinyl from their shelves and talking about nothing but what the inner labels look like while completely botching the names of the composers and conductors. Wow, it's a "shaded dog." Welcome to thirty years ago, old dudes. Lol. This channel should correct that imbalance nicely.

In Peter Heyworth's book Conversations with Klemperer, is this. PH: "What about Deryck Cooke's realisation of Mahler's Tenth Symphony?" OK: "A scandal. Mahler told his wife to burn the sketches in the event of his death. She didn't do so. Apart from the adagio, which I have conducted, there is nothing more than sketches, sometimes only a single line of a few notes. When I heard that a man called Cooke had completed them, I asked for a score. It's impossible. I mean, if Cooke were a second Mahler, then it might be all right." That sums it up for me. The only person who could complete Mahler's 10th was Mahler himself. Any 'completion' or 'realisation' or 'performing version' is of academic interest only.

The real problem with completed Mahler Tenths is the adagio. It's such an utter masterpiece, and itself such a satisfying conclusion to the Mahler body of work, that there's little reason to listen further except for curiosity's sake.

It's not only annoying when classical music gets completed. Lately it's been happening a lot in pop music where a singer dies and the record labels make a whole album post mortem.

I quite agree. That"s why I will NEVER wish to hear "Elgar's" third symphony.

I've enjoyed the chamber symphony version by Michelle Castelletti, recorded on BIS by the Lapland Chamber Orchestra (really!) cond. John Storgårds. Except for the lack of percussion at the opening of the finale, I find these smaller forces feel right-sized for the sketchy music, unlike the "full-blown" symphony reconstructions which are too much like a thin man floundering in a large man's suit. Mind you, I know DH judges differently, having branded this disc a "CD from Hell" !

Now with AI it is just going to get worse.

id rather enjoy Mahler/Cooke symphony 10 times before i return to Rachmaninovs 5th piano concerto, YES YOU HEARD ME CORRECTLY FOLKS, they actually made a piano concerto out of Rachmaninovs 2nd symphony and made a big deal out of it.

There should be a law banning using Mahler name or anyone else's name on something they did not write,end of story.peter.

I can guess what Gielen's philosophy was. I assume he was a Frankfurt-school post-Marxist. Theodor W. Adorno, Walter Benjamin etc.

"Flies on a corpse"... love it. My feeling is that the 10th Adagio is a great experienced after listening to Mahler 9 but with a break of about 1-2 minute silence. The emotional bond between the final notes of the 9th and the opening of the 10th adagio are like crossing an ocean into the cosmos .......... I don't know if any conductor has performed the 9th with the 10th adagio integrated into a program but I reckon that this may in fact come close to "completing 'Mahler. Rattle conducting a completed 10th is a crime against humanity.

I agree nearly totally with your view about completions. In my opinion, they are gravedigging, especially in the case of Bruckner. I know personally one of the guys, who made one (not Carragan...) - and the completion is as the person: the result of thinking oneself a genius. Awful! But there are exceptions: „Turandot“ fe - not that I would miss this opera, but I would miss Busonis „Faust“... And now the Mahler: I think, one should perform just the first movement. Krenek once told me that he thought over a completion, but it ist far too less material, and, moreover, nobody can know, what Mahler would have changed. The best completion seems to be Cooke - I have the score, and I guess, he did the best in adding as few as possible. Nevertheless, at least the last two movements sound, as if another composer tries to imitate Mahler. My suggestion for Tinnitus Recordings would be all completions of Mozart’s Requiem WITHOUT the parts by Mozart himself. Wouldn’t this be great?

I am fine with just the 1st movement of Mahler's 10th. It stands on it's own as a great piece of music. The final movement is far too depressing for my tastes. Mahler already put dying into musical terms with his 9th and Das lied Von Der Erde. The finale of the 10th is overkill. I rarely listen to it, and when I do, I come away in a very depressed mood for days. Blah!

Personally, I'm glad that people finish incomplete works by dead composers. Imagine no Turandot! Alma gave her approval for Cooke's version. She was deeply moved by the music. The Cooke version is still the best overall, the Carpenter by far the worst. And Sanderling is tops in my book. But anyone who really is interested in this music needs to hear the original broadcast with commentary by Cooke that explains a lot of his decisions. Berthold Goldschmidt and the Philharmonia from 1960.

For the sake of curiosity , I’m glad the Tenth exists but I can’t view it as part of the official Mahler canon. The Adagio is another matter, but even this he would have tweaked ( as was his way).

I think completions would be much better if they were done by composers rather than musicologists. They wouldn't be as authentic, maybe, but someone who actively writes music would have a better sense of what certain sections needed. Preferably by a self-effacing composer, because someone with a huge ego would probably co-opt the entire project, and end up bringing it farther from the original conception... Also, no matter how bad the Mahler 10 completions are, none of them are as bad as the Bruckner 9 completions. Like, I kind of want to buy a copy of the score of the SMPC Bruckner 9 finale so I can just throw it against a wall.

This is one thing that really cheesed me off with the Vanska/Minnesota Mahler cycle. They are recording all 10, which, of course, means symphonies one through nine and Das Lied. But no. No Das Lied, just "his" tenth. When I saw the program, all I could do is scream , "he didn't write that!"

I'll still take Mazzetti, it sounds the best to me (Lopez-Cobos). But it's not Mahler! I usually prefer the Adagio alone. I have no interest in any other so-called completions of Elgar, Bruckner etc. If I want to hear third-rate orchestral music, there are plenty of composers who at least present it under their own names. Life is too short.

Mr H has great ears and knows the repertoire inside out. Very impressive the small details he picks up on. Long may these reviews continue !