Repertoire: The IDEAL Haydn "London" Symphonies 

Thanks so much for sharing you experience and for taking the time to listen so carefully! I'm very touched and humbled that you took that list seriously and I'm delighted that you found the musical experience rewarding.

Wonderful!

A word of warning to Qobuz users. The Bernstein cover says NY Phil, but the track info says London Phil. Not having the recording, I don't know which it is. More importantly, they switched the track info--the 99th is really the 98th and vice versa.

Good for you!

You're welcome!

@@DavesClassicalGuide "Becoming"?

When half of the items in my shopping carts and wishlists suddenly say "This item is no longer available from the seller you selected", then the proper term might be "Became a legend"!

Take your time!

why do you call him papa haydn?

@@classicalperformances8777 That's what he was often called late in life when he became quite celebrated.

Thanks for listening

@@DavesClassicalGuide I do tune to your channel quite often. We had a discussion about V Talch in Dvorak a while ago. Glad to find your view on Brahms' First Symphony as well. Strangely we agree about a third of the time. No other music critic comes close to correlating their views with mine like you! Like you I don't mind an older recording when the music making is the tops!! I also like your way. Enthusiasm for your favourites and not denigrating the rest! Best wishes, George

Thank you and welcome! I do plan to do some Bax. I discussed "Nympholept" already in one of my music chats.

@@DavesClassicalGuide Haven't watched that video yet. I'll check it out. Cheers!

I plan to.

Yes! The winds were never swamped by the strings and the discs were only a few bucks each.

Oh my--far be it from me to criticize the versions you imprinted on, but those version are so dull and indifferently played compared to others. If you still enjoy them, please do, but in the game of comparisons I don't think they hold up very well.

@@DavesClassicalGuide Fair enough; the other choices you offered happen to be in my collection with the exception of Harnoncourt. Your impersonation of Klemperer's 'posthumous' Haydn was Haydenesque in its humor.

Ah, but "The Seasons: is the greater oratorio, even though it has no real "plot". Bohm and Harnoncourt great there, This is a fine list, and I know many of the recordings, but for getting Haydn's humor, there's nothing like Beecham. Not as well recorded as some, and the editions aren't always the latest, but you'll revel in Haydn's jokes.

@donaldjones5386 No argument from me, although I think van Swieten butchered the Thomson text. But to me vocal music depends less on text and more on music, although it's nice when you have great music expressing a great text.

I agree with you on 100. Its the best version. The Hermann Scherchen has entertainment value though

​@@rsmickeymooproductions4877 thanks Richard. If one were to nominate the "Coming of the Anti-Haydn" Cycle, Fey and Norrington would have to be mentioned on multiple occasions! Best wishes, B

A very good choice!

@@jasonhurd4379 yes, I know. I meant going forward.

Sure, at some point.

Thanks! I wish some of these recordings were still in print (e.g. Goberman). I was, for a long time, debating upon getting that set, and I never did, and now it's not available.

I was annoyed at Telarc--I don't see them as still in print (though you can get them used). But yes, of course, Mackerras....

I just listened to the largo cantabile from Szell's 93. You're right: it's a real rip.

You haven't missed anything. Davies is, as you say, a very odd conductor in any music composed before, say, 1960.

Mediocre performances.

Thanks very much. Yes, I do plan to do the Haydn sonatas, which are marvelous, but I'm not exactly sure when... The Pinnock set is very good but I don't have permission to use samples and it's not recent, so I don't know if I'll get to it as a video. It was reviewed (not by me) on ClassicsToday.com very favorably, and I fully agree with what was written there. I'm so glad you enjoyed the Bach book. Writing it was a real voyage of discovery for me.

​@The Ultimate Classical Music Guide by Dave Hurwitz please don't forget a full traversal of the string quartets, either!😮😊

Oh yes, things are such a terrible mess now...everything is going digital and that's where we're going to be, I guess.

I think most of the Mozartean aspects are in the 98th's second movement: It's a homage to the slow movement of the Jupiter. And the God Save the King quote is also similar to the Agnus Dei from the Corronation Mass. I believe Haydn wrote it after learning Mozart had died. Haydn also shifts some of the dramatic weight to the finale by casting it in sonata form, as Mozart did in the Jupiter.

Hmm. You've really got to work on that lack of humor thing. Good selection otherwise.

These are some great choices! What jumped out at me was Kubelik for 99. 99 is my second favourite London Symphony (after 102), and Kubelik's is a sentimental favourite of mine. I really like Kubelik in Haydn, and wonder why his Seasons seems to get overlooked (love that one). Also, going to give Rosbaud in 104 a listen. I acquire cds so voraciously that I buy them faster than I can listen to them (lest I lose my chance when they go out of print). To my great surprise, I actually had the foresight to buy Rosbaud's complete DG recordings, and then promptly forgot that I had them. Will move this one to the top of the order. I'm assuming that the Lamoreux/Markevitch 103 is an old DG release that now is, sadly, AWOL. Correct?

​@@olegroslak852 Yes...I very much like Kubelik's Seasons and Creation (with Lucia Popp, a favorite). I should get his recordings of Haydn Masses as well, maybe you have? The Rosbaud box of DG was a great collection...now there's another 104 as well in the Hanssler box...I have still yet to get one or two of those box releases. It is very tempting to try to buy everything in a hurry, as you say. My Markevitch Haydn 103 (with 104) is an Epic LP, but that means it was also on Philips. The only CD release I know about is on a label that has variable success with sound. If there was a release on DG or Universal, I haven't seen it. Too bad it wasn't included in DG's excellent Markevitch box.

@@jeffrosenfeld5781 "DG's excellent Markevitch box" ... which I have, of course.

@@olegroslak852 I'm not surprised! Total aside, but my favorite moment in that set is the brazen tonal color trombone choir in the opening of the Consecration of the House Overture. Unbelievably fantastic, isn't it?

Underrated by whom?

@@ThreadBomb Not by me!

@@ThreadBomb Not by me!

And Szell HATED harpsichord accompaniment in Haydn. Another Szell salty remark about the harpsichord

Forgot about the Sinfonia Conertante. Has to be the Camerata Academica/Vegh (of course).

"Old" is the operative term, I think! Thanks for writing.

Second rate, mostly.

I agree that the Naxos series has been an unexpected strength, with Nicholas Ward and Helmut Müller-Brühl in particular. I haven't tried them all, however.

I would put Hogwood ahead of Fey (coarse) and Antonini (superficial).

I forgot about Vegh... now I have to revisit those recordings. Edit: Though I do remember a lot of OoP Orfeo recordings can be very, very hard to acquire physically and sometimes digitally, which is not friendly to new listeners.

RabidCh you can find them on Presto Classical

Well, you've mentioned it now. Good pick (for that one movement).

Jochum or Bruggen.

@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you Dave! (I'm a Dave too, or do you strictly go by David?). Any opinion on Marriner's work with the ASMF? There's a box set available of all the named symphonies they did that looks tempting. Thanks again.

@@twigfarm4229 Dave is fine, and I made a video about the Marriner Haydn box. Have a look in the Haydn playlist.

@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you Dave. Will give it a watch. By the way, my wife & I watched your Best & Worse Sibelius Symphony Cycles video last night - What a hoot! Absolutely great video! AND great cat! Loved the sleeping cat! Picked up the Berglund/Bournemouth cycle and, yes, CHEAP! Will also have to pick up the C. Davis/Boston to replace the LPs I lost when I sold my collection (4,000+ LPs). Thanks again!

Picked up the Marriner box. Looking forward to revisiting some "old friends". Thanks!

Minkowski is grotesque, and Antonini only has 7 discs, so there will be plenty of time to discuss them as they come. But really, that Minkowski set is horrible. He is a dreadful conductor of orchestral music after the baroque period.

@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you so much for replying. I just thought the 2032 Project by Antonini was important enough to mention. As for post Baroque Minkowski, wow, we have to agree to disagree, especially about early Classical material, I do love his Haydn and his Gluck Orphée et Eurydice is also very good. As for later material, his Schubert Symphonies are indeed not a top selection but his live recording of Gorecky 3rd Symphony with Marita Solberg is phenomenal. (as was broadcasted on MEZZO, you can find it on RU-vid)

@@dannylior8590 Antonini is important but not in that context, and I agree Minkowski did a fine Orfeo, but I diid say "orchestral music." As an accompanist he's fine, most of the time. And I'm happy to agree to disagree there! You clearly know what you're listening to and I'm happy that you enjoy it enough to share it with all of us, me included.

@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you David, a pleasure conversing with you.

Kudos for reminding us of the Kleiber 94...excellent stuff. I don't agree he's better in opera, but I agree he's amazing in opera. I just think he's better live, and that's where you have to get him in many operas (Otello, Boheme, Rosenkavalier, etc.). The same applies to Haydn and other orchestral works he didn't do for DG.

Yes, they are old Deutsche Schallplatten recordings if I remember correctly (and spelled it right).

I agree Herbig's is beautifully played and well conducted. I bought a few of the discs singly, but you can get the cycle very cheaply now.

They are the same.

@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you !

You'd have to ask them. Silly is as silly sounds!

I don't care. They sound fine to me.

Get Jochum. I think Abbado is pretty terrible, actually (in Mozart too), but if you enjoy them, then please go right ahead.

@@DavesClassicalGuide Somehow I completely forgot this exchange from a year ago. But I still like the Abbado. My complete set is Davies.

I think they're pretty mediocre.

@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks. Best not to waste my hard-earned cash on second-rate stuff. Dorati--if I can get it. I already have Fischer complete, Haroncourt's Paris, and Bruggen 100 & 104.

What errors. Never apologize. We have your back.

I find them colorless and too small-scale.

@@DavesClassicalGuide We do agree on Minkowski. I was lucky to find a copy of the Kuijken box on HMV Japan.

There is a major cycle of M. Haydn symphonies on CPO. I will be talking about them.

Agreed there aren't many choices for Michael Haydn symphonies. I believe cpo has finished recording the cycle. Performances are split between two orchestras (Slovak Chamber Orchestra and Deutsche Kammerakademie Neuss) and three conductors (Warchal, Goritzki, and Beermann). The ones conducted by Goritzki seem to me to have a higher energy level than Warchal's, but for some of the symphonies there is no other choice than Warchal. Farberman recorded about half of the cycle for Vox back in the 1980s; his P20 is fun even if the tympani parts are dubious. Naxos started a new cycle conducted by Patrick Gallois a few years back, but it seems to have stalled after two discs. The Michael Haydn collection on Brilliant Classics includes some symphonies recorded by Farberman, Gallois, and Nemeth, but I haven't seen a complete listing to know whether it includes the whole cycle.

David Hurwitz and all in major keys!

No argument from me there. But then, Blomstedt knew Haydn personally.

How were they?

Actually, it's very good. He's an excellent Haydn conductor and I enjoyed it, but I never feel I have to mention everything in every talk.

@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you very much for the input. I'll consider the purchase seriously.

The videos aren't going anywhere! Go at your own pace. I never expected anyone to have to "keep up" with them. I am just trying to build by own catalogue that you can watch (or react to) at your leisure.

I don't mind you asking, but the answer is in my reviews.

@@DavesClassicalGuide alright, alright:-) I'm still stuck in recovery anyway and your reviews do bring a smile to my face( even if you like Jurowski and Petrenko who I find sterile and mechanical, not musical at all).no matter. I';ll watch all your Haydn videos and I hope to get the answer. Your books by the way are terribly expensive to order to Greece, but perhaps I'll get a chance to read them on kindle. You sure have me interested. I love your way with the language too:-) thanks for all that. your Currenzis review had me in stitches the other day and I'm literally in stitches having removed some of my organs, so I'm not supposed to laugh that hard:-) Bless you, Sir.

@@classicalperformances8777 Oh dear. Please feel better and try not to split your sides (literally)!

From ClassicsToday.com CD From Hell: Norrington’s (Ob)noxious Haydn London Symphonies Artistic Quality: 4 Sound Quality: 8 Roger Norrington’s approach to Haydn couldn’t be at further remove from “sounds that Haydn is likely to have heard,” and even if he did manage to achieve something along those lines, the issue, so many HIP practitioners fail to grasp, is not what the composer might have found familiar, but rather, what he would have found good. My guess, based on these performances, is that Haydn would have been dazzled by the wholly modern speed and precision of some of the playing (take the finale of the “Clock” Symphony, for example), while being utterly revolted by Norrington’s barbaric lack of sensitivity, grace, charm, humor, tension, drama, and taste. Trust me, it’s an easy call. This is “one formula fits all” music making. The interpretive deficits appear everywhere, but most obviously in the strangely mannered string phrasing evident in many of the twelve symphonies’ slow introductions, or (the last example I noted) in the finale of the “London” Symphony. This usually takes the form of mannered, clipped articulation that chops up the melodic line (even staccato passages should retain some semblance of continuity), or at the other extreme, an oily legato that sucks the energy out of the principal themes. Given the high speeds at which Norrington operates the result sounds oddly pointless, like a caged hamster running faster and faster on its treadmill. Haydn’s symphonies have many colorful nicknames, but “The Rat,” “The Hamster” and “The Gerbil” were not, last time I checked, among them. Worst of all, though, are the slow movements. Have they ever been played more quickly, indifferently, or with less character? Remember, several of these pieces actually take their nickname from their slow movements: the “Clock,” the “Military,” and the “Surprise.” At these tempos, Haydn’s “Clock” isn’t just running too quickly, the music loses all of its droll humor. The “Surprise” has no impact when it has so little advance preparation, and as for the “Military,” well, just compare the gusto with which other period performance-style conductors like Harnoncourt relish the cut and thrust of Haydn’s battle. Norrington’s sounds as though written for toy soldiers. Harnoncourt makes an excellent point of reference in the “Clock” Symphony too (sound clips). There’s a guy who, in this movement at least, really gets it. Perhaps the most dispiriting performance here is that of Symphony No. 102, one of Haydn’s boldest, loudest, most proto-Beethovenian works. In Norrington’s hands it sounds puny and anemic, neutered by his excessive speeds and constant tinkering with phrasing and dynamics. Where Haydn demands explosive strength, Norrington offers a kind of mincing effeteness. This, when you think about it, is a remarkable achievement in a performance strong on trumpets and drums, in typically “historically aware” style. No, the reason for this disaster is an entirely contemporary one, resulting from the presence of a being Haydn never encountered in his own performances: a narcissistic, egotistical, excessively controlling modern conductor. These performances were recorded live, very well, before a quiet audience. The applause at the end of each symphony is annoying (not to say embarrassing) and should have been edited out. I have no doubt that had Norrington not been involved, the Stuttgart orchestra could have given a performance, all on its own, far more satisfying to Haydn and to us, as well as truer to the music.

@@DavesClassicalGuide I unfortunately bought the set for $12 before watching your review, which I'm agreeing with more and more. The phrasing is off, lacking punch in places. I love a rapid first movement and finale to 102 but they seem slow compared to the second movement. I do love how the orchestra stays together, like a computer realized orchestral sound, but the brass bite does seem all the same with no nuances. I like speed where necessary, but I also appreciate breathing room for emotional emphasis. Perhaps this orchestra could do the London symphonies with a different conductor, just to see what a difference can be made.

There is nothing about your statement that is true to the audible facts. This is not a matter of opinion.

@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks for your rapid reply. Those are only my humble general feelings.

Oh, yeah, Mogens Woldike did some nice non-hip haydn for vangard. And Leslie Jones did alot of haydn for nonesuch..london, haydn, sturm and drang etc......as i recall jones used a harpsichord continuo in the london....which seems rediculous...and you can really hear it. Otherwise jones was actually quite lively.

@@sirsamfay99 i looked at the set. Radio recordings from the fifties. The conductors interest me alot. I know their recorded work. But these are radio recordings.... how are the sound on them? Thanks.

@@sirsamfay99 thanks...i just ordered a copy.

@@jeffreylevy9130 Regarding HIP versions, I agree with you on Bruggen/Paris. Kuijken's set is much better. For the sturm und drang symphonies, Bruno Weil is very good. I found Goodman a bit faceless.

A very good set...

Do you listen to Herbig in other music, besides Haydn? After discovering his Haydn I explored a bit further and found he did quite well in Mahler, Brahms, Shostakovich, Beethoven, Schoenberg....I'm not sure why he's not better known, although I think I understand that he's more "sensible" than "sensational". Still, his Mahler 5 is quite exciting; the Beethoven 3s are very satisfying. And so on...

Jeff Rosenfeld I agree. He is one of the lesser known formerly East German conductors who knew what he was doing but was outside the radar. I heard him do a wonderful Bruckner 8th. You should try his Shostakovich on Berlin Classics.

Again, the answer is in my reviews. 3+ decades worth of them.