Repertoire: The WORST and BEST Schumann Symphony Cycles 

i grew up in the Cleveland area and was raised,, aswere, by George Szell. I believed then and believe now that Szell was the greatest of all conductors. He thought these symphonies were underrated and programmed them often. I have heard many of the recording suggested here but still come back to the Szell. If any recordings could , for Szell, be a labor of love, it is these.

I love Schumann !, With 20 seconds of listening to Sawallisch, I realized that you were right. ! beautiful, thank you

The final movement of the Rhenish is absolutely glorious. The slow down of tempo for the chorale section and then letting it go off like a train is exhilarating. Never bored of it.

Thanks David. Always had a problem with Schumann. His short phrases and lack of dynamics. Swallisch shows us how it should be played. And wow! That orchestra. What a sound..

Kubelik with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra remains my favourite - humane, responsive and utterly beautiful accounts. I agree that the Zinman is great, though, and the Sawallisch is a classic.

I'm listening to the Bernstein Vienna Phil set now. Holy cow! Amazing!!!!!! Thanks so much for the recommendation!

Nice evaluations. Kubelik Berlin Phil. # 2 is my all time favorite, and for me the best example of having the orchestrations become dimensional in a very good way. Recording is also top.

I have always loved Marriner's second go round in these. It is my favorite Schumann's fourth.

Thank you so much for this survey. For years, I passed up the Sawallisch Dresden set, as I already had a few Schumann cycles, and that conductor rarely holds my interest. Following your video, I immediately listened on Naxos Music Library, and wow!, I was blown away!!! Such amazing clarity, and perfect phrasing throughout. Delicious winds and pointed brass! You were spot on with this choice. Thanks.

I have problems with Schumann for years. The same problems i have with Brahms. The orchestration can be too thick, stodgy, heavy and cumbersome . The majority of recommendations including Sawallish, Dohnanyi, szell i have thrown in the bin. I'm not saying their performances are bad but just not my taste. I went years without listening to Schumann until one recording hit the market. This recording is Swedish Chamber Orchestra, Thomas Dausgaard (BIS) . They released the 2nd and 4th initially, then the others to complete the full cycle. I have these as separates. Not sure if a box set is available. I recommend these because of their lightness, crisp, detailed, transparent recordings. Also, the joyous excitement they generate is infectious, Its a pleasure to listen to Schumann now. My personal taste guys.

Dear Mr. Hurwitz, thanks for the recommendations! The sawallisch is really amazing as you say! It just floats and never stops flying. Never heard such a wonderful Schumann. I think one of the secrets of why the recording works so well because is that it seems as though the mikes are placed a bit further away from the orchedtra and they let the Hall speak for itself, that’s why it is so transparent. This is something that engineers have seemed to forger… They allways place the miles so close now…

It's already been mentioned, but I'd definitely want Boult's cycle in the mix - it's often thrilling. I grew up with Paray (and still like them a lot) but for a combination of great modern sound with musical energy and transparency, I think Zinman's Zurich set is just about top of the list (great as Sawallisch and Bernstein II are).

I'm so glad I discovered your channel, David. Your enthusiasms are very contagious! And I enjoy your sense of humor and have urged my friends to tune you in! Indeed, your talk on Haydn's London symphonies today has made me want to dip back into the Haydn waters, which have never been smooth sailing for me since . . .forever. Perhaps now, in late middle-age, they will speak differently to me. (I actually studied with a noted Haydn scholar, Edward Olleson, but even so, I never could warm to the symphonies when young. It has taken your talk today to motivate me to revisit them! Thanks!)

Thanks David , another wonderful talk .

Kubelik?

I really like your videos. Please keep posting! I hope you can cover some obscure composers. I'm learning so many things about these pieces that I've heard a million times. For Schumann I like the 1986 Capriccio recordings with Neville Marriner and the Radio-Sinfonieorchester Stuttgart.

Thanks David. My favourite composer, I think the Zinman is great too

Dave! It is surprising you did not mention Gardiner. I heard most of his rehearsals and performances when he was on tour with Mahler Chamber Orchestra doing the complete Schumann. He used period instruments (18-19th century, presumably those Schumann heard and used. Imagine he writes for Waldhorn in f# in Manfred) and that made me realize that Schumann indeed was a brilliant orchestrator. I was then assistant of Abbado and several projects were going in tandem. Besides other instruments, the natural horns and trumpets made the balance of the orchestra perfect. The trumpets melted into the woodwind sound. Horns were not too loud, etc. Since then I do not consider Schumann to be a bad orchestrator. When I conduct I try to achieve a transparent and delicate sound with modern instruments (most tiring for musicians). Please consider Gardiner with period instruments. If you do know them, what are your impressions? I did not hear the recordings. I heard all live.

Listeners should be aware that most of Bernstein's work with the VPO (including Schumann) has video (now on DVD) connected to it. don't know if these performances are exactly the ones on cd/lp, but were usually recorded close to the non-video recording date Some of the stuff didn't come out on video in the U S for quite a while (for example, the Beethoven symphonies).

Please, more Schumann! Especially the piano pieces.

This is great! Love your description of the Karajan sound! Thanks for the heads up on the Thielemann as I have not heard them, but have long had them on my radar, but now I won't have to worry about them. I love the Sawallisch set!

Couldn't agree more with the main recommendations. For me Zinman's no nonsense, exciting approach, and the way he clarifies Schumann's sometimes awkward orchestration is fantastic - paced to perfection. My only really small nitpick, is around the Feierlich movement in the Rhenish; I just wished he'd perhaps broadened the tempo slightly, to add a bit more mystery and majesty to it? Anyway that's just me - indispensable set. Thanks

Always found it interesting how different conductors handle the timpani at the end of the 2nd Symphony.

I got the Szell LPs way back when and I’m all set!

Thanks for the recommendations - have somehow struggled with Schumann for a long time. Liking what I hear from Sawallisch and Staatskapelle Dresden so far.

I thought you might appreciate the fact that in their attempt to list the time stamp when you discuss each recording, RU-vid lists the conductor of the first recording you discuss as Herbert Von Carrion.

Dave, and what about Hans Vonk, Kölner Rundfunk-Sinfonie-Orchester, EMI Classics? I've been listening to this set for many years, and was quite happy with it. Fresh and crisp. Now, having found your review, I'll try your recommendations, of course.

A movie bio of Schumann came out in 1983 ("Spring Symphony") that is pretty good. Unfortunately the presentation on you tube is in Spanish with no subtitles, but you can still tell what's going on with his romance to Clara. At the end of the movie he starts composing symphonies and there's a good Spring Symphony at the end.

Love furtwanglers version of the 4th, on the same record that has furtwanglers 2nd symphony

Hello Dave, Thank you for your videos, including your Schumann recommendations. Unfortunately, I can't buy the Barenboim box (at least here in Germany) either as a CD or as a download. But Deutsche Grammophon has re-recorded the cycle with Barenboim and the Staatskapelle and released it a few days ago. Have you had the opportunity to listen to these recordings? There is a great danger that Barenboim will follow up a brilliant recording with a less successful one :)

I totally agree with Sawallisch and I grew up with Szell. Somewhere along the way you recommended a set that adheres to HIP conducted by Merz. it must have been in another review. I was intrigued so I got it, mainly because I wanted the fest overture that includes a choir. I do enjoy the performances with one caveat. To me, the Timpany is obnoxious. it is just too loud and overbearing for my taste. And I’m rather surprised because I really get a kick out of the timpani in Paavo Jarv’s Beethoven recordings. The other thing I would say is that just about any performance of these symphonies is enjoyable to me because I love the tunes. They contain some of the most beautiful melodies I can think of. His orchestration has never really bothered me all that much.

My favorite Schumann cycle is Boult’s with the London Philharmonic. I like swift, driven performances in symphonies, and in Schumann Boult delivers what for me is the most electrifying of the eight cycles I own.

Muti also did a Schumann cycle with the Philharmonia for EMI, which is easier to come by than his Vienna cycle. How does that compare?

I just came here for the Thielemann bashing 😁 But seriously though, you’ve criminally neglected to mention Skrowaczewski. That is such an exciting and absolutely terrifically played set. Especially the second. But really all of them. It’s an astounding achievement.

Don’t forget Sawallisch’s 2nd cycle with Philadelphia, recorded in the bright acoustics of Philly’s new (at the time) Verizon Hall. While the live performances on the Orchestra’s own private label. might lack the legendary stature of Dresden, the digital immediacy and clarity of the playing help depict the Philly transition from Muti’s orchestra through Levine’s Philly cycle into the early digital age.

David - greetings. I fully appreciate your critique of Karajan in Schumann even if I still glut out on those divine strings and the Klang itself. Do you have any thoughts please on Levine's DG cycle with the Berliners? In your opinion, was he any more successful than Herbie? There is also the Kubelik cycle on Sony with Bavarian forces. Please keep up the great work - Bernard

I believe I have a set with Wolfgang Sawallisch conducting the Staatskappelle Dresden and it's wonderful, and my absolute fave.

David, are you aware of a similar RU-vid channel that covers Jazz artists/albums similar to what you do?

Wow, thanks Dave!

So I just watched this video after watching your reference recording on the Schumann symphony cycle. Did you hear you correctly with the one sentence regarding the John Eliot Gardiner set also being one of the worst sets (I have that set unfortunately). And I also have the Roger Norrington set (both of which I picked up in a bulk CD collection). The Norrington set is sealed so before I open it, how is it? Guess I should just get the Sawallisch set (and maybe the Bernstein/Vienna set as well).

Wow! Zinman’s album is riveting! His an Sawallich’s are my two favorites so far, and what a contrast in approach.

David, thank you very much. The overview was thoughtfull and informative as usual. However, I missed hearing you talk about the Celibidache set from Münich (EMI/Warner). Any thoughts on that?

Dear Mr. Hurwitz: I coincide with most of your assessments and am particularly happy about your accolade to Barenboim and the Staatskapelle Berlin. But, what about Kubelik and the Berlin Philharmonic on DGG?

One detail I love about Barenboim's later cycle is the advantage it takes of the chromatic timpani. I think this makes a huge difference. As a percussionist, I'm sure you feel the same way. I think timpani parts in general in pre- 20th century orchestral music should be rewritten so that they fit precisely with the harmony.

I'll try the Zinman - I like him in general. Of course, I have the Sawallisch set.

What do you think of the complete Schumann orchestral works on Audite with Holliger?

"...So bad that I kept them..." Like JERRY LEWIS JUST SINGS and (gulp) MORE JERRY LEWIS JUST SINGS. Or PLAN NINE FROM OUTER SPACE...So very bad that they exert a fascination.

I must say I completely agree in taste in both good and bad recordings... Especially Sawallisch and Szell for me. Although I mostly adore Karajan, I admit his Schumann cycle is mostly awful-- but also greatly suffers from bad, harsh sound. And I personally don't put it next to the really abysmal Thielemann. Because at least there's always line and an idea of some kind behind it...

I love all four symphonies and Houston Symphony played them this season in a Schumann festival, including also the piano concerto and cello concerto. Surprised to hear Hurwitz comments on the Gardiner but reviews of that set were all over the map. His comments on the Karajan set are illustrative of the most common complaint about Karajan--sometimes there is a tendency to homogenize into what one critic calls "Karajan soup".

Hi Dave! What do you think about the Kubelik's traversal of Schumann symphonies with BPO?

Your thoughts on the Schumann cello concerto?

I'm very happy to discover your channel David! Totally agreed with you on the Sawallisch set and I also like his Bruckner too. BTW I was at that Haitink's Shostakovich/Schumann concert. The programming was a little unusual but I did stay until the end, lol. The other Concertgebouw concert I attended that week they played Haydn's 88 (my favorite Haydn symphony) and Mahler's 5th. Don't know why but I have this strange feeling that I might have seen you in attendance also.....;-) If my memory serves me well there was a third one with Jessye Norman singing Fidelio in concert?

Anyone who knows if and when the Barenboim Staatskapelle Berlin cycle will be released again? I've got the Chicago version, but I find the Berlin version far more interesting (found them att Naxos Music Library). With the Bruckner cycle it's the other way around. I have got the Berlin Phil version which is not to my liking. But the Chicago version seems impossible to get hold of. Will that be released again?

Always interesting ! Did you hear Paul Paray with the Detroit SO ? Please, tell me what do you think about ! Thank you !

Hey David...here is a suggestion, make a video about Schumann Das Paradies und die Peri and it's THE Gardiner recording.

Hello David, its always great to listen to your reviews. Im quite fond of klemperer's Schumann cycle, but i've always wondered if his (as usually said) granitic aproach actually favors the music. ¿What do you reckon?

Wowie-zowie! (as they say in the trade). I've got at least a baker's dozen of Schumann symphony sets in my collection, and this omnibus review knocks my socks off. David, I agree with almost all of your evaluations. (Great minds, and all that.) Haitink's set IS the most boring I've ever sat through; he brings nothing to the table, and the usually glorious Concertgebouw plays as if on autopilot, with the pilot asleep at the controls. Zzzzz... As for Fluffy and his Berliners: I confess that, in an earlier life, I was bamboozled by the Penguin Guide's raves. ("Karajan's interpretations of the Schumann symphonies stand above all other modern recordings.") I soon learned that whenever the Penguins go on to mention "the violins above the stave," there's trouble a-brewing. No mention of Klemperer? I'll admit he's an acquired taste, not acquired by everyone, but a guilty pleasure in which I joyfully indulge. ("More guilt than pleasure," some critics might add. So be it.) If I were limited to just one set, it would be Szell, Levine/Philly, Sawallisch, Kubelik with whatever orchestra he's conducting, and Otto the Great... Okay, so I flunked first-grade math. BTW, give a listen to the set by Florian Merz and the Klassische Philharmonie Dusseldorf. (Aka Schumann for Percussion and Brass.) A wild ride indeed. Just imagine what Currentzis will do when he gets a hold of these scores!

For all of my love for the German Romantic school, I have but one Schumann symphony cycle. I bought it years ago to sort of "fill the gap" as it were and it's been my only reference since. No one, and I mean no one, ever mentions this so perhaps it's a real sleeper? It's Kurt Masur/London Philharmonic on Teldec. Given your descriptions of the two different approaches to the Schumann cycle, I would put it in the "Classicist" camp. Any thoughts about Masur (whether this 90-91 LPO cycle or his other with Leipzig Gewandhaus 1974)?

Indeed, once again a very informative, inspirational and interesting video - thank you! I own a cycle with Neville Marriner and the Academy of St Martin in the Fields, do you have any thoughts about that one? Kind regards.

Dave, how do you feel about Barenboim’s second Schumann cycle with the Staatskapelle? I think I know the answer already. ;)

“Probably able to hear the best Schumann now than anytime in the past.” I hope you will still believe this. After hearing this summary, I have recorded both the 1841 original and the 1851 revised versions of the 4th Symphony. Sawallisch is definitely a reference point for the later version, thank you. What inspired me is the idea that there are two very different versions of the same symphony by the same composer possibly due to his mental health condition, which he named Florestan and Eusebius, which we know today as bi-polar. The result is a fascinating psychological portrait of Schumann through his music. I hope you’ll like it.

Dave - greetings. Insofar as it sparks your interest, here is a tough question to ask, Schumann-wise. What are the best Carnavals? Would love to hear your thoughts one day.

What about Klemperer's Schumann? Good? Bad? Interesting?

Any thoughts on Ansermet? I really like his Schumann Second.

Just picked up the 2015 BC Schumann Edition box. Hope it was a wise move. Thanks!

It’s been a long time since I listened to it, but have you heard the Sawallisch cycle from Philadelphia?

Gardiner's cycle is actually really good

I see that our wayward friend Sinopoli did a cycle. He has his moments but is his Schumann worth investigating?

Bernstein....yes!!!!

i also like the Inbal Schumann with the great New Philharmonia:deutliche Mittelstiimen und immer durchhörbar, ich habe ihn auch als Lps,vorallem die 2.und 3.Sinfonie sind top.

Sawallisch is the very best! (imho) Almost a miracle. The "classic" performance of Kubelik / BPO is boring, although it has many beautiful moments.. but it lack's the passion and drive.

Thielemann has been dropping bombs all over the place recently. A very overrated conductor. The less said about his Beethoven symphony cycle the better.

Right on with Sawallisch and Zinman both most underrated conductors!!!!

Oddly enough, it as Thielemann's Schumann 2nd that put me off him forever. Heard it once, and he twisted and pulled the phrasing in such perverse ways, it sounded like he was trying to be Furtwangler, but to my ears, it just sounded arbitrary and unnecessary.

My experience at first with these works was the Second. I don’t remember all the performers I’d heard play it, but I know that one was Thielemann. It always came across as a dry, uninteresting symphonic argument. Then I heard Gardiner’s period performance, and suddenly I really liked the Second. It came off as a breathtaking ride full of yearning and Romantic ardor. But I’ve just listened to Sawallich and it’s better than Gardiner. Sawallich makes the piece work formally, as Gardiner does, but he also lets Schumann’s lines sing and breathe where Gardiner marches past them without stopping to smell the roses at times. I’m a fan of period performance in Baroque and Classical literature, and in some early Romantic repertoire, but I’m not usually convinced that it’s appropriate by the time of Schumann. Anyway, thanks for the recommendations! Aside from Gardiner (whose readings I still think are good, but not great) these recordings are my first real experience of Schumann.

Ah sorry...I've forgotten to mention another superb Schumann Symphony Set: Paul Paray with Detroit Symphony Orchestra...fast, brisk, exciting...a real shocker! Not for all tastes perhaps...but so original!

My go to set is Dohnanyi’s with Cleveland

UMG has been dumping recordings all over RU-vid recently, including the Kubelik Schumann cycle with the Berlin Philharmonic.

Just listened to Barenboim’s Spring Symphony (Teldec Box) and Sawallisch’s Overture, Scherzo, and Finale (same box you have). Barenboim’s sonics lack some clarity that Sawallisch’s (did I spell it right.) has in abundance. As you said, the Schumann is a very enjoyable piece. I almost, but not quite, don’t miss a slow movement. Wonder if he ever thought of adding one? By the by, the Barenboim performance I liked, too, sonics aside. The EMI goes back to the Lp days. Keep spurring me on to explore the ocean of my collection: 4500+ cds and 2500+ Lps. Yes, 83 years of insane love of classical music. 🤓

Interesting... I've heard many cycles and I find the Haitink-cycle overall the most enjoyable (maybe for the Rhenisch I would prefer Dohnanyi).

By the way, a lot of the qualities that make the Staatskapelle's Schumann cycle with Sawallisch so special are also to be found in their underrated set of Beethoven symphonies with Blomstedt. I hope you can review that sometime.

The John Eliot Gardiner set is revelatory. Truly refutes any criticism of Schumann's orchestration. I never even liked 1 and 4 that much until I heard Gardiner's set. It has a bunch of Schumann's lesser-played orchestral works too and makes great cases for them. The only one I don't absolutely love in Gardiner's set is Symphony no. 2. It's pretty good, but I like my Levine recording of that one more.

Chailly made a Schumann Symphonies Cycle with Concertgebouw but it is not so striking...I like much the Solti's for Decca, Sawallisch on Warner/Emi and also Yondani Butt with London Symphony Orchestra...someone knows this latter?! For me was a real surprise! :)

Think Furtwängler has a great fourth, maybe that symphony suited the old school better

The "set" I go to is with Antoni Wit conducting the Polish National Radio Symphony Orchestra (Katowice) on Naxos. I have Szell on LP, but it never turned me on. I also have Haitink, which sounds nice enough to me, I don't hate it, but the Antoni Wit recordings are superior.

Muti did two complete Schumann symphony cycles, one with the Philharmonia and one with the Vienna Phil. I find them quite enjoyable. In fact, I don’t like anyone else’s Schumann. I think the Philharmonia/EMI set is more atmospheric. What do you think about Muti’s Schumann recordings?

What is especially surprising about the Sawallisch set is that, despite the high hall resonance, everything registers clearly. I also like Solti - a nervous conductor for a nervous composer. The Vienna horns as recorded are unequalled in the "Rhenish".

Thanks for recommendations. I have an idea for a future video. How about comparing symphonies that grab you from the very first hearing (like Mendelssohn's "Italian" Symphony) compared to symphonies that take a while to get acclimated to, but end up equally rewarding (like Schumann Symphony #2).

I have Zinman both on Telarc and on Arte Nova, and I like them both. Somehow I find they can live together very well. I would not know which one of the orchestras plays “better” (I think I might prefer the strings of the Tonhalle Orchestra. And the recordings overall.), but the interpretative (and recorded sound) differences are of course there to hear.

Thank you for mentioning Karajan first. When I bought the cycle on LP in my youth, I was aghast by the bad interpretation.

UGH. I find that the only complete cycle I have is the von Karajan will have to remedy that . Also have a young Mehta with the Vienna Philharmonic on Eloquence which is not bad.

I attended one of the Barenboim/Staatskapelle Schumann concerts on tour and had a great time (the 2nd and 3rd are two of my favorite symphonies btw though we got 4 and 2 + Manfred in the hall ) and was happy I later bought the set. I have Bernstein NYP, Szell, and got both Levine cycles, I heard the Philly one last Saturday and loved 2 and 3; 4 was quite good but, sorry, #1 drove me crazy because he kept fussing with it especially in the outer movement sand inserting all sorts of rit. and rubati where Schumann didn't ask for them and didn't want them. The finale to #1 has such a trivial theme anyway, fussing with the music doesn't help. I agree with you about the must-have Sawallisch set. My favorite Rhenish is Toscanini's 1949 EXCEPT the Cologne 4th mvt is too fast. But the rest is wonderful. Ditto his 1941 2nd, an amazing, thrilling scherzo and singing, surging slow mvt (the greatest of RS's symphonic mvts IMO). He also did a great Rhenish in 1945--just as the Allies were crossing the Rhine! (and the Americans were in Paris, yes he did that too). It's probably on you tube.

I was waiting for you to "Gong Show" the Karajan set... ;-)

I’ve been listening to various Schumann Seconds. Yesterday I heard the Vienna Philharmonic under Bernstein. It’s a blockbuster of a performance, but so different than Sawallich, who’s my current favorite. Bernstein plays it like it’s Mahler Five. It reminds me of how Kleiber plays the Beethoven Fifth, but even more so. It’s Schumann². I very much like it as a performance, it it doesn’t seem idiomatic to Schumann’s style the way Sawallich does to me. A pull out all the stops approach that I’ve heard Giulini use for Bruckner. I think there’s only certain composers and works that warrant that kind of approach.

Hi Dave, as I said, I love your explanations to my beloved classical pieces and it's funny to listen to your pronouncing of german titles. I am a german citizen and thank you for being that sympathetic guy. I adore you're sentence: Keep on listening. I do, I promise.

Dear mr. Hurwitz, you are always a delight to see and listen to. Another one to mention is Stanislaw Skrowaczewski's cycle in Oehms. For me one of the best available.

Hey, thank you for this breakdown on these Schmann's cycles - really interesting and informative. Have you got any thoughts on Eschenbach's take on these works?

Hmm. I agree that Karajan doesn't click in the "Spring" (stodgy and joyless) or the "Rhenish" (ditto, except for a great first movement). I like his Second a lot, though - the first movement has more drive and vim than Sawallisch's, and not many string sections fill out the Adagio's great theme as beautifully Karajan's Berliners (though Sawallisch is very fine here as well). As for the Fourth: I frankly don't care for the piece. The first movement is like a bad imitation of Beethoven's "Coriolan" Overture.

Any thoughts on Rosbaud's cycle?