I’m only about 15 mins in to the video but I do have to respectfully disagree about Tommy’s decision to leave Ellie behind not making sense. It makes perfect sense. He knows what Joel sacrificed so Ellie could live, and he knows his brother would kick his ass if he knew he was knowingly bringing Ellie into such a dangerous situation. Not to mention, Tommy has grown to love Ellie, too. It’s his niece. Did he know Ellie would probably find a way to follow him? Yes. But that doesn’t make it nonsensical that he would refuse to be the one to invite her to join him in something so dangerous. He knows if Ellie dies, Joel died for nothing. Not to mention, he knows Joel wouldn’t want either of them going after Abby. Tommy might want to go against that, but it’s realistic he would at least want to do what he could to limit Ellie’s role in it.
I dont think Tommy wouldve gone in the first place, he left joel in the first game because he believed Joel had gone off the tracks and that theyd lost all morality. So he joined a community. Once joel became a father again and worked for the community Tommy and he reunited. Why would Tommy abandon his family and community to kill some randos when hes already come to the conclusion that thats not the life he wants to live.
That’s why at the end of the game when Tommy was so upset that Ellie wouldn’t go after Abby, I was so confused. I honestly thought it was like a dream sequence or something. I immediately said Tommy wouldn’t want her to go! He would 100% want her to stay and focus on her family just like Joel would have wanted for her. Him going from begging Maria to lock her up so she didn’t get killed to being mad that she didn’t want to go on a suicide mission to find Abby is absolutely ridiculous. I cannot understand how the writers misunderstood their own characters so much!
@@uploadinstuffwhat you detailed in why he originally left Joel and how he found a community and reunited with Joel is exactly why he would go. To him this group of people showed up just outside of his community and murdered his brother. So not only is it revenge for killing his brother, which in itself is not immoral, but the safety and security for his community could be at risk.
@@Kmiller5515 Except they werent and he knew it. It was a couple people who lived in Seattle 800 miles away. Its not about the morality, its that he wouldnt leave Maria and Ellie and everyone and risk death or capture (in which case he wouldnt be able to support his community or loved ones) in order to kill someone that killed someone close to him. Also at the end he knew it was personally motivated by abby and he wanted to go after abby to kill her. When he couldnt go he pressured ellie into going, knowing it would ruin her life. Both characters behaved that way so that Abby wouldnt seem so bad by comparison even though she did a thing the creators knew would be hard to swallow from the fans.
I kinda concur. Your logic is sound but living in this world is dangerous. I think Tommy's lust for revenge fuckin got the better of him. And he wasn't thinking clearly at the time. I don't think he was tryna keep her safe, cause if that was the case he wouldn't have allowed Ellie to go on patrols and shit (had be been that over protective). I think he was pissed at Ellie for not leaving sooner.
Ellie doesn’t ask why she’s never found anyone else who’s immune because she’s dumb or because the writing is bad, she asks it because the first thing Joel tells her when she wakes up is that there’s dozens of immune people. It’s his literal explanation from the first game as to why they left the firefly base.
Exactly, she’s calling him out on the inconsistency and improbability of his argument, giving him the chance to come clean and admit it makes no sense.
Which is funny because the other immune people who reached the Fireflies are dead, something she didn't know but Joel might've, since it's in lore pick-ups
hmm, i don’t know. i think dina leaving ellie makes perfect sense. she gave ellie an ultimatum, “if you leave again, i’m gone”. and ellie leaving again shows that she valued revenge over her family.
@@GameOverloadMO If you think about it, Ellie chose to pursue Abby again over her life with Dina and that's what made her leave the farm. All that chasing after Abby in Seattle brought to them was pain, so Ellie setting off again and Dina leaving her makes perfect sense, she has a son to look after and she wants nothing to do with Ellie's quest for vengeance anymore. Ellie loses everything because she kept choosing violence over peace. Dina has no way of knowing that once Ellie found Abby she would let her go, no way of knowing if after killing Abby someone was going to find their farm and get revenge on Ellie. Ellie gets punished despite letting go because she only let go at the very last second.
@@GameOverloadMO I would argue that the ending challenges you, as does much of the game. The ending does not have to be "satisfying", necessarily, it needs to be complete, and it needs to make sense. After all, it's not the ending so much that matters as it is the journey the characters went on. Ellie's primary character flaw was resolved - she realized that revenge was not going to heal her - and that is what the story was centered around. The fact that she "lost everything" is the point. She sacrificed everything that tethered her to humanity in pursuit of the satisfaction that revenge ultimately could never give her. The storytellers make this point exceptionally clear. You admit that Dina's choice to leave makes sense - then what else is there? You seem to say that Ellie is "punished" for "breaking the cycle", but I think that's missing the point. She ends up alone *because* of her choices, and she leaves the guitar to symbolize her growth, or the completion of this part of her journey. What's next is up to us to decide as viewers. She could go back to Jackson and find Dina, or she could embark on a journey to find a doctor and develop a cure, or any number of things. We don't know, but that is the point. Great storytellers do *not* make choices which cater to the feelings and desires of their audience. Rather, they make compelling choices that set their characters on exciting journeys. You admit many times to have been captivated by emotional scenes in the game, but then go on to criticize the game for "lazy" writing. I think that many of your points about plot convenience are unfair and misguided - you could say the same about any number of moments in the first game (or any storytelling really), but because you don't have a bias against that game, you forgive those conveniences or "contrivances" as you put them.
@@danielgonzalezjimenez5677that’s why it would have made more sense for Ellie to kill Abby. Ellie is left alone and unable to play the guitar as a consequence of archiving her revenge.
@@GameOverloadMO It's not Ellie breaking the cycle that causes her to lose everything. It's that she broke the cycle too late. That's why she lost everything.
I never understood why Joel explained himself to Ellie while leaving out so many details at Salt Lake hospital. Like the fireflies took an unconscious Ellie and were ready to kill her to make this vaccine. Kinda silly because 20 years had gone by. What’s another day to wait before scrambling her brains? They also attacked Joel, a man who was performing cpr on a child. I get that they had to make conflict for the first games ending. But Ellie is a child and despite her potentially wanting to sacrifice herself, she is too young to make that choice, and the fireflies screwed up any possibility of making a vaccine due to their haste. I just think Joel should’ve explained himself further. Yes he lied, and it’s bad. But it’s not like Ellie was consenting and the fireflies handled this responsibly. “Oh my! The child is here! Quickly before she wakes up, prep for surgery! Right away! Let’s not do any tests or ANYTHING! We’ve waited 20 years for this chance, let’s rush into it blindly for no reason!”
Joel didn’t fully explain or go into detail because 1, it wouldn’t flow well narratively and I’m sure Neil would say it would have ruined the pacing (even though the games pacing is already pretty bad), 2, it makes it so the writers have plausible deniability to make Joel out to be the person in the wrong and so Ellie is more justified in her choice to cut off her relationship with him. Then 3, it creates more drama in the story so when it’s finally revealed that the two did make up and were going to try to repair their relationship, it’s more of a surprise. Realistically though, anyone would go into detail and explain the entire situation to Ellie for sure.
You make some Good points. I also think about how in that moment, Joel had FINALLY been caught in his lie. And I’m sure we’ve all Had moments in life when a little fib or lie or anything really got exposed about us or caught about something. And me personally I’ve been so razzled that I couldn’t speak. Like my brains going 1000 miles a second. So maybe Joel was experiencing that. Like having this huge confrontation with Ellie, getting the truth exposed must’ve been hard for him to speak in that moment. Idk I need to rewatch that scene. But yeah.
@@derekcampbell4209 Ultimately, why the characters make the choices they do in the story all comes down to what story the writers and Neil Druckmann wanted to tell. The narrative choices made all were made for the express purpose of where they wanted the story to conclude even if the choices that characters make, the plot armour, the lack of detail Joel went into about what happened with the Fireflies and so on and so forth is all done to surprise Ellie and the audience by the end of the game, even though Ellie should logically already know her and Joel made up. I suppose you could say her anger and rage drove her to push that to the back of her mind and thats completely fair but whats not fair is for her to forget about the scene of her and Joel making up until like (I can't recall the amount of time exactly) 6 months after the fact. Most of my issues with the game stem from the fact that it was overly ambitious and tried to juggle too much rather than just focus on the core of what The Last of Us is, and even Neil knows what that is because he created it and talked about it in interviews and thats Joel and Ellies connection and relationship. So by making a game that isn't really about that (the stuff with that is the best part of the game) it doesn't feel like TLOU and suffers from bad writing that feels like a first draft.
100%!!! The Ellie finding out the truth scene is so terribly written and is another example of the game conveniently having the characters make dumb decisions or leave out crucial information. There is absolutely no reason why Joel shouldn't have told Ellie exactly what happened. "Ellie they attacked us. They kidnapped us. When they woke me up they held me a gun point and told me I couldn't see you and that I just had to leave you behind to die. They had you for HOURS, and decided they were going to kill you. You couldn't ask them questions or do more tests because they wouldn't let you, so I stopped them". THAT is what happened. But nope, joel conveniently has to describe it in a way that leaves out crucial information and makes HIM look like the bad guy. It's so dumb
@@josephpmorganDA that's Yr opinion and I'm pleased for you. Me i hated it in the leaks and it was worse in gameplay that's my opinion. And my opinion has nothing to with Joel as I agreed with that
I just need someone to explain to me why he felt the need to convince ellie to kill abby. I personally can’t make sense of it and I’ve given up trying.
@@The1andonlysharpshooterTommy first lost his big brother right in front of him, then went on a revenge quest where he failed to eliminate the prime target and lost Jesse in that same process, barely survived, became crippled where he cant walk properly, he cant see with his right eye so he cant use his sniper skills anymore, then when they got back to Jackson Ellie swore to him that SHE would make Abby pay because Tommy can not. And on top of all that he and Maria broke up. That man has nothing left, he is a shell of himself
I disagree that Ellie making the right choice by sparing Abby was "rewarded" by losing Dina and JJ. She lost them by making the wrong choice to pursue Abby instead of letting it go. Sparing her was Ellie finally learning her lesson
Absolutely. You get it. What you just wrote is pretty much exactly what the story’s writers were going for - they explicitly said as much during the cutscene commentaries during a playthrough of the Remastered game.
It makes no sense as a story. She cuts down everyone to get to Abby to have a fist fight, finally gets her where she’s wanted her for so long, and in a moment of reflection, says “na, never mind” (btw knows nothing of her back story, she’s just some random ass firefly to her). It’s nonsense.
@@jhulgan85by doing this whole "what's one more death?" thing, you're reaching the same conclusion that Ellie reaches on the beach: there's no real good reason for Ellie to kill Abby. Ellie isn't even doing it for Joel anymore, and it won't bring her any peace of mind. If the only justification you can think of is "well I've done this thing for so long so I can't stop now," then ironically, you've reached the point where you need to stop and walk away. Ellie walked away and has a chance to just go about life on her terms, which she hasn't been able to do until now.
i still maintain that it would have been better pacing to START with Abby’s story up until she gets to the theater AND THEN swapping to Ellie’s story from the beginning. it would’ve made people a lot more sympathetic towards abby, and the shock of seeing the girl you just spent the first half of the story playing as murdering Joel would have been mind blowing
Starting day 1 beginning with Abby without the intro of even knowing Joel is dead…if we pick up from Abby day 1, then watch her into day 3. Then we cut to Ellie day 1..Jackson prologue comes at the end of day 3 after she kills Owen..that would be a tough sell but would also maybe play better. We would never know what and how Joel dies, maybe we know he does and eventually we know Abby does by the end of her day 3, but we cut right into Ellie and now we never had to sympathize with Abby, we are fresh on confusion and maybe rage with Ellie. We still don’t see Joel’s death full until the death scene which becomes a flashback, much like the other 2 Joel flashbacks. The farm and Santa Barbara can play out the same but it makes you really wonder if they changed out the order of play, not trying to make you sympathetic but instead made you go in full blind for a long time, not even knowing what either motive was for Abby or Ellie until later….I think it may have worked better. Or not because wtf am I to restructure a huge story but it’s interesting to think the story we have presented in a different order
I've been saying something similar, that we needed to spend more time sympathizing with Abby BEFORE Joel's murder, even moving her Day 1 prologue nightmare of finding Jerry in the hospital would have helped the audience understand her character. But listening to the podcast and director commentary, it seemed like ND wanted to make the audience hate her character, and see if they could manage to understand her later. They completely succeeded in the first part, and with the second for many players, but obviously that didn't work for everyone.
@@samniel They focused too much on trying to get a reaction. It backfired for a lot of people, took them out of the game, and made them completely disconnected from it, and not interested or invested in the story. Because even though people understood the character and her motivations, they didn't care and were more interested in laughing at the game than caring about the story. It's a major failure in terms of not just execution but setup. When people would rather pause the game and start ripping it apart and critiquing every flaw in the story or just no longer care and just play for the sake of it, you have failed in creating investment and interest. Trying to make people hate a character first will often result in a lack of investment in that character and the story as a whole as we have seen with this game. That was one major mistake, the game makes others just as bad.
I don’t think they were manipulating players to like Abby and dislike Ellie. I think they were trying to show how they are such similar people, riddled with their addiction to revenge. They aren’t forcing you to switch teams or even justify Joel’s death by fleshing out Abby’s character and making her more human. In my opinion, Part 2 isn’t about hate, it’s about addiction. It’s as much a story about love as the first game, just to the other extreme. I do think the placement of Ellie and Joel’s talk was absolutely perfect. Showing us that scene towards the end of the entire game really changes your perception of any further play-throughs. It shows us that Ellie went through all of this knowing the whole truth and why Joel did what he did. It shows us how she finally had the chance to choose her own trajectory in life by deciding to forgive Joel, just for it to be so brutally torn away from her once again. “I don’t think I could ever forgive you for that. But I would like to try.”
An early cinematic trailer for this game was backed by Ellie signing a version of the song "True Faith" by New Order. The song's writer Bernard Sumner said of its meaning: "It's about drug dependency. I don't touch smack but when I wrote that song I tried to imagine what it's like to be a smackhead and nothing else matters to you except that day's hit." I think the theme of addiction is spot on.
I find to to be about Hate, Addiction AND Factionalism. It worked because Ellie does much worse than Abby but there's a scary amount of people who saying "Oh I enjoyed watching Abby get torn apart by clickers" and stuff. It's because Ellie is "our side" so her actions are totally justifiable and Abby being on "the other side" so everything she can does is vilified by the audience.
@@Melina_Evarblume_Seelie 100% agree! A lot of Ellie’s actions in Part 2 seemed to be justified and excusable because we spent the entire first game getting to know and love her, but you never hear the end of it when Abby does the exact same thing.
This was my take too. I never felt sympathy for Abby. It’s about understanding her motivations, not feeling bad for her. And it’s showing you first hand the consequences of our beloved Ellie’s action. A lot of this game’s criticism are, “Why would they do that? That’s so out of character!” Then when the writers show you why, it’s called manipulative and forced.
“It’s as much a story about love as the first game, just to the other extreme” lowkey gave me goosebumps...I don’t think I’ve seen someone word this game so well, damn good job 🙌
Something I noticed on my second play through was the correlation between Ellie and a character that Dina talks about called "Eugene" Eugene joined the firefly's when he is a younger man and that's where he met Tommy and ended up in Jackson .A note from his ex wife that you can find in his bunker shows her begging him to come home to her and her daughter, telling Eugene to leave the firefly's, to let someone else save the world, let someone else get revenge on FEDRA, to pick family over revenge and war. But Eugene didn't, he left with the firefly's, left his family behind, and it seems like he never saw them again, and Dina comments on how lonely Eugene was for the remainder for his life before he had a stroke and died. In the end, Ellie also choice revenge over family, left her partner and child behind, and in the end lost everyone she loved and became very lonely. I don't know if this was an intended idea put into the game or if I'm reading to much into it, but I thought it was interesting.
Everyone loves to say Joel had to face "consequences" for killing so many people, but they don't recognize he killed to survive and to protect his own. Not for revenge or because he enjoyed it. So he should be punished for being good at surviving? For keeping Ellie alive crossing the country for a whole year? For killing soldiers, hunters, and cannibals, who were more than happy to shoot first? And why don't the Fireflies have to face "consequences" for trying to kill Ellie? Didn't they have it coming?
Ellie wanted to die, she was ready to die for a cause. No one says the Fireflies are perfect, but Joel killed many innocent people for a very selfish reason- one even ellie didn’t agree with. Yes, he says “he saved her” but she didn’t want saving and that’s what makes him so selfish. As Ellie put it in part 1 “everything we’ve been through, everything I’ve done, It can’t be for nothing”. Joel knew what she wanted.
@@seraphitella2466 Completely wrong. Not everyone with survivor's guilt wants to die. Ellie and Joel talk about how the Fireflies might get a "cure" from her, and he says they will probably take a blood sample. There's no talk whatsoever about dying for it. In fact, they are making plans for the future. Ellie says after they are done, they can go wherever Joel wants. And she wants to learn to swim and play the guitar. That actually happens in the game. Those are the word written. Not some guess or supposition. Ellie's "cause" at 14 might not be her cause at 19 or 29. Her mother, Riley, Joel, they ALL tell her to keep fighting and find a true purpose in life. Which is impossible to do if she's dead. Joel didn't kill one innocent person in the entire game. There's speculation about his days with Tommy shortly after the collapse, and he says he's ambushed people, but we have zero factual data beyond that. Marlene was the selfish one for kicking Joel out of the hospital and keeping Ellie unconscious. She's the one who removed everyone's choices. Not Joel. When Ellie says "it can't be for nothing" she is NOT saying she wants to die. They are almost at the hospital, and she wants to complete the journey and give the "cure" a chance. NOT the same thing at all as dying for it. She just don't want to turn around and never find out if she could have made a difference. And if Joel "knew" there was a ghost of a chance she could die, he would never allow her anywhere near that hospital in the first place. Ellie had plenty of reasons to question the Fireflies and the certainty of the "cure." If she "sacrificed" herself without asking any questions, she would obviously not be in any mental or emotional condition to make that decision in the first place. And Marlene was not going to let her ask any questions or make any choices. "I was supposed to die at that hospital" is a completely ret*rded retcon in "part 2." They did NOT cross the country and save each other's lives multiple times just so that Ellie could die at that hospital. Least of all, for a fantasy "cure" that would NEVER have happened, and would not have "cured" anything or anyone. The fantasy "cure" would not make the soldiers, hunters, Fireflies, cannibals, runners, clickers, stalkers, bloaters disappear and magically restore civilization.
I disagree, it’s HEAVILY implied that Joel is/was a horrible person and became so after losing his girl. he is a direct contrast to Tommy, I’m pretty sure Tommy comments on how they could’ve survived without killing innocent people “we just weren’t any good at it” not arguing for fictional karma but Joel without a doubt had it coming, charming and lovable but brutally bitter and selfish
Tommy leaving Ellie in Jackson makes a lot of sense to me. He didn’t want something to happen to her while seeking revenge. And on top of that if he did bring her along and something bad happened to her, he didn’t want that on his conscience. Losing his brother and his brothers “daughter” (again), both bc he couldn’t protect them well enough might have been too much for him. Also he knew he could take care of himself. Was it stupid to go alone? Yes. But he was for sure putting in work with his sniper. Edit: I also want to add that with his state of mind and emotions at that moment, he likely wasn’t thinking rationally (which would have been go with Ellie so you can both take care of Abby. And you can have each others backs) he was likely thinking more emotionally, being that he couldn’t handle losing Ellie too
I 100% agree, because Joel’s death is caused from the hospital massacre. Basically the reason Joel did what he did was to save/protect Ellie. If anything bad happened to Ellie if Tommy brought her with him, he would never be able to live with that. I really believe that this guy was hating on a lot of parts of the game for no reason as he claimed was just the writers were basically being lazy. Most of all the things he disliked actually made sense to have in the game, but that’s my opinion.
Tommy leaving Ellie behind does kinds make sense to me. If Ellie died going out to avenge Joel, then everything Joel did since meeting Ellie was for nothing. All the fireflies he killed (Tommy was a firefly once too) and all of the emotional progress to becoming a better person Joel made as a result of taking care of Ellie would be gone in the wind. He didn't want to risk that and so instead, he went himself.
As much as I disliked the gaps in the story-telling - I thought it lent a palpable sense of realism to the characters' journeys. People do dumb things when they shouldn't. They trust people they shouldn't, when they shouldn't, and often do foolish things trying to protect loved ones - which backfire. This should be expected, not the exception. Tommy leaving early and trying to spare Ellie the pain of revenge (whether you get revenge or not, there's always pain) makes sense from a human perspective. Joel trusting strangers he shouldn't - while in extremis - makes sense from a human perspective. Dina being more worried about her friend/lover's mental state and feelings more than she should have been about her baby makes sense from a human perspective. All of these things, coupled with the randomness of the depopulated world allowing people to cross paths unexpectedly, are things that could happen in real life - history is littered with such examples of being in the right/wrong place at the right/wrong time. All of theses 'wrong' decisions by our characters feel very believable from a human perspective.
Saying “people do dumb things in real life” doesn’t excuse bad writing. Joel standing in the middle of the room with people with guns is just bad writing because he would NEVER do that.
@@miller-joel why the fuck wouldn’t she? Because it’s in memory of the passing of her significant others “father” people use commemorative names all the time
they never pointed out how the good doctor and his people wanted to dissect the child’s brain without her consent for a _chance_ at a cure cuz it’d throw a wrench into their whole moral compass thing.
The issue is that even if a cure were discovered, it's too late. The world has plunged into darkness, and many people have turned greedy, likely to exploit it for power over others. Joel probably foresaw this before his hospital rampage.
@@brafshsyt this, but also I saw another video that talked about how okay, let's say they make the vaccine, it works, it's perfect... Now what? Like how are they going to organize the distribution, cause I don't think it would be easy or fair tbh
Abby never shows enough emotional depth. Ellie's bloodied hand shaking after her cruelest act, how she reacts to killing Mel... Abby doesn't ever show regret or remorse for killing *anyone*. That's not a "strong character" but a total psychopath.
How is she a psychopath? She clearly loves people, she risks her life for others, she loves her dad, etc. She even spared Ellie twice and a psychopath would have acted pragmatically. words have a meaning. Also Abby is ruthless because she is a Joel parallel, she’s cold hearted then her ice melts because of her relationship with someone else. Ellie on the other hand is warm hearted, nearly loses it and has to regain herself. Also Ellie’s kills are way more brutal - she kills a pregnant woman without realising it, beats someone to death with a pipe, etc. Abby’s are clean, a few gunshots. The exception is Joel and she is clearly damaged by killing Joel and has some flashbacks of her own and trauma connected to her father’s murder also.
@@Malaestro Abby only saves Lev & Yara because her dreams are messed up. She literally says that to Yara when they're picking out a gift for Lev. She doesn't care about them, only doing what makes her feel good bout herself. Ellie killed Mel in self defense. Notice how she reacted when she discoverered her pregnancy. Contrast that with Abby about to kill Dina. The only reason she stopped is because of Lev. No other reason. Lev is problematic too. He's sticking around Abby because, honestly, what choice does he have at that point? His whole tribe is dead, he has no one else. That's not the Joel/Ellie contrast they so desperately want to portray, that's literally just trauma bonding.
@@MsYunaFires What Abby says and what she means are often discordant, especially with them. You're telling me she feels nothing for them outside of needing to release herself from trauma? She clearly cares for them and risks a lot for them. With Lev she literally only fights Ellie when his life is threatened. Lev clearly has affection for Abby. Ellie is hanging with Joel out of necessity too initially, and vice versa, but things develop. You forget we had literally an entire game to flesh out the relationship between Joel and Ellie, and there were less sub plots to complicate the development of that relationship.
@@Malaestro No, in most stories the writer is competent enough to have characters say things they don't mean, especially since the previous game did exactly that. Not the case here. Here Neil Druckmann was at the helm, and he in real life *genuinely* believes you can offset evil actions by being nice to totally irrelevant people. He used this same rationale to fire the victims of his best friend, Robert Cogburn, when they kept going to HR over him grabbing them by the chest and groin. Worse yet is she's not supposed to be a parallel, but "Joel done right." See, the idea was she'd take over the franchise after destroying everything from the first game, because Neil was upset his ideas kept getting rejected like the entire plot for the first game being about a revenge story. Turns out a failed comic author might not be the sharpest crayon in the box, and Sony's paying for having chosen him over Bruce Straley, Amy Hennig and hundreds of other competent employees that kept telling them he wasn't qualified.
They need to do a DLC that shows Tommy's 3 days in Seattle (kinda like Left Behind in Part 1) I was so disappointed when they made Part 2 for PS5 and it didn't have it
Oh man, I’d love to play Tommy sniping at Abby on the bridge. While they successfully made me empathize with Abby to an extent, I hated Manny the whole time. He spit on a dead man just to add more disrespect, like was taking his life not enough? Him dying was my favorite scene when playing as Abby, so I’d love to pull the trigger on that bastard myself.
We needed to see that. We see how devastated and torn Ellie was throughout her time in Seattle. But no one ever thinks about Tommy. How was Tommy feeling? Was he thinking about his brother and the good old days before the outbreak, and Sara. How far they had come as survivors and their journey to Jackson. Tommy needed more love man. We could have literally seen some pre outbreak flashbacks with Tommy and Joel or something along those lines, give Troy Baker a reason to bring that character back.
@@GerryLo5198 it would be cool to experience that but its unecessary by the end of the game. We know what it meant to Tommy. He left everything to. We also see what its done to him and what Ellie has to look forward to if she cant move past it.
The whole “you killed my father” revenge plot would have helped me like Abby more if she didn’t torture Joel for multiple hours before killing him, that lost any hope I had for ever liking Abby.
Ellie also tortured Nora, but because it’s a character you do not care for, it’s okay? You don’t have to like Abby, the game only wants you to understand her perspective I believe, but throughout the game you can clearly see how she struggles with what she did to Joel. Right after killing him, she doesn’t look relieved as she’d expected. Then in her 3 seattle days, you see her continuously have nightmares about her father still - because she knows killing Joel didn’t fix anything. It is only when she finds a new purpose in life (Yara & Lev) that she starts to move on from her trauma
@@seraphitella2466 Ellie tortured Nora and was given a bad ending by the devs Abby tortured joel and was given the happy ending by the devs Thats another reason people hate this game, despite them doing the same thing, the npc that caused this entire game to happen gets the good ending, meanwhile the character that we actually cared about gets the bad one
I would point out during Abbys first section before she meets jole during the snow storm she finds their tracs and follows them so I kinda do nto get how it is contrived to think some one hunting some one would find them when they leave tracks.
Yeah, she's specifically looking for them and following tracks. I think maybe they could have fixed this by having one of Abbys crew find one of the notes that the Jackson patrols leave in their towers, documenting their patrols. They then learn that Joel is likely to be patrolling near the ski resort area? It's a bit contrived as-is, but it's not particularly bad.
@@bort118 Actually Owen pointed her in the direction of the outpost they went to, it's why when she found those tracks she was gonna follow them. I really feel like the horde made things contrived quite a bit when they didn't need to be.
1. Well, for one, how could she have known they were specifically Joel's tracks? Joel and Tommy weren't the only one that went out on patrol. Many number of people did. 2. It's kinda difficult to continue following tracks when you're getting chased by a massive horde of infected! She was being chased by many infected and was running in a random direction to get away. She just so happens to be going the direction of Joel's path. How is that not contrived?
@@Kira_Official_ She didn’t she was just following them to see where they led and if Joel and Tommy might be in the patrol that’s heading to a outpost in the general direction she was heading in. Yes, that’s the issue I have with it, it is still quite a bit contrived and would be one of the bigger problems if the existence of the horde and their migration wasn’t explained in Ellie Day 2.
Joel did get comfortable in the years in Jackson, but what's an even more sobering truth is that he just had that conversation with ellie the night before. He was on a high and felt like he's getting his daughter back. He's guard was absolutely down. That's all.
@mrrobluxo2369 when you are happy? You aren't paranoid. Your guard is down... this was what joel has been wanting for what maybe a year to 6months? Ellie hadn't been talking to him. I'm a parent, so for me, I completely understand his mistake.
It’s not a point that overrides a quarter of a century of experience and habit, particularly when confronted with a horde and a large gang of armed strangers.
I honestly looooved getting to play as Abby and the pararles between her and Ellie. I do agree sometimes the shifts or flashbacks kill the pace a bit but to me, those are the parts that made the game so amazing.
I'll keep it real and say that while I disagree with a lot of the criticisms against the writing of the game, I genuinely love the story through and through and it's one of the most impressive I've ever seen across any medium but TBH it's my favourite game of all time, so there may be some bias. With that said though, this was a really well made video and I really appreciate that you're bringing a lot more to the stage than the typical criticisms this game gets. Awesome video, was very surprised to see you have under 5K subs.
My biggest issue with the theme and message of the story is the environment of the world. You’re in a post apocalyptic world, filled with not only infected zombies, but gangs of savage people doing anything to survive and literally militias. Your in a world were you’ve witnessed your closest friends and families die, and you’ve been forced to do some of the most messed up stuffs. What’s to stop some randoms ass Npc that Abby or any other character killed from coming back and continuing this “cycle of revenge” that the game so desperately wants to villanize. I don’t think this was the game for this message
a random ass npc can't come up to take "revenge" cuz they wouldn't be from a big group& instead have to worry but protecting them in this stupid world everyday. Abby or Ellie were able to do that cuz there were in a position of some power like fireflies, military, wfg etc.
Thank You!!!! I've said this many times. A world like this where there will always be violence because it's a post apocalyptic world where infected roam and people are out for themselves isn't a good place for this kind of themes. This was a story that didn't need to be told.
I disagree that Joel deserved death. I have a kid- two really, my German shepherd and my son. You’re looking at this story from the perspective of someone who is living in a modern society without the strife of survival. He did what any parent would do if they had the means in that situation. Everything else he did was survival, and I can’t judge someone for just trying to live.
Everyone criticizing these game for story, writing, execution etc. But the one thing which no one criticize is the music. Like man its too damnnn GOOOD. Like i dont think that anyone who had played or watch this game being played have anything to criticize its music. Gustavo Santaolalla respect 🫡🫡🫡
My main problem with this story is that : - They went on assuming that we would "sympathize" with Abby's side after she killed Joel when we knew NOTHING about her. They should have put that scene of Marlene and Jerry in the first game so we understood quicker the consequences of killing Jerry. I had to wait like 12 hours to understand why Abby wanted to kill Joel and by that time my mind was already made on her. - The random PTSD moment at the end of the game. I can understand Ellie's indecisiveness but by the time we see how affected she is by killing, I was already done with Abby. - The writing and the way they "tried-harded" the parallels between Abby/Lev and Joel/Ellie. That shit was so in your face like : "Look !! Abby has found her people into Lev and the Santa Barbara's Fireflies, just like Joel did with Ellie and Jackson 🥰🥰🥰", "Look !! Abby likes anime and collects stuff, just like Ellie and her comic books and cards!!! :)))))) They are SOOOOOOO similar guys they probably would be best friends if it wasn't for circumstances ❤" It almost feels like the writers sat in front of me and told me "Here's a new Ellie and Joel :))))" for 30+ hours but I do not know those new characters. I do not know her opinions, her dreams, her hobbies, what she likes, what she dislikes. We don't know anything about her before she kills a Joel we've known for like, 7 years. How do you expect me to forgive, or at least sympathize with her ? This story had major pacing issues and I think it's what spoiled it for me. To compare with a game that I've played that came out the same year, Ghost of Tsushima. Imagine if the second act was just us playing as Khotun Khan and talking about his own insecurities and traumas (in parallel with Jin's) while he invades Tsushima. Like bro, I do not care, just die please 😂😂😂. - More of a personal issue but I do not like characters who quit halfway through things, it pisses me off. Especially when we kill THOUSANDS just to get to her only to give up right in front of an almost dead Abby. We have made thousands of Abbys, who could come back AT ANY MOMENT FOR US, in our way, only to fail in front of the only Abby that needed to die and that pissed me off. I wish they would have given us an option to spare people just like in Sifu, so there could be a consequence for OUR actions. I'm playing as Ellie (and Abby) but I'm not them. Not everybody can relate to their choices and their feelings so of course it's going to be polarizing. Now, I know that killing Abby won't bring back Joel (I already know he wouldn't be in the game) but Ellie can't come back to reality with a half empty cup. To me, the cup needs to be FULLY EMPTY to start all over again. I understand the point of the story but it's written so weirdly that I cannot like it. It just leave a sour taste in my mouth. And no matter how much I'd like to change some parts it won't change anything so it's just frustrating. It's like they choose the worst option in a Telltale game 😂😂
There are so many things you can pick out in the story that just don't make sense, but are never addressed by the characters. Abby's is somehow surprised when Ellie comes after her for killing Joel, her father, when that was Abby's whole motivation for seeking out Joel in the first place. How Ellie was somehow convinced the vaccine would have saved the world, when Joel should know better and would have talked about it with her. Plus, honestly, Abby is just unlikeable. The first thing Joel does after Abby finds him is save her life, but she doesn't hesitate for a second to torture and kill him. How am I supposed to sympathise with someone like that? The fact that you can go around killing everyone with no consequences, when the theme of the story is about revenge is also hilarious. They tried to be clever by taking some random nobody like the doctor and attempt to guilt you by giving him a backstory, but it's all so contrived when you spare no thought for all the faceless NPCs you kill without a second thought. And then when you kill one of Abby's friends Ellie has a mental breakdown. She doesn't feel bad about leaving countless dead in her wake, but when she kills one of the people responsible for Joel's death she goes to her girlfriend and cries about it.
So dont make parallels and dont make likeable characters cause itll feel forced when theyre just tryna tell the story u cant seem to comprehend? Feel bad for u
I appreciate nuanced takes like this. I think I enjoyed the game a bit more because I actually disagreed with Joel's decision in the first game. I think it was incredibly selfish, mainly because while I really like Ellie, I don't think her life becomes more valuable than anyone elses just because I care about her. Since I already disagreed with Joel, I guess it was easier for me to understand Abby's perspective and I felt that Joel kind of had it coming.
@@friendlyfeministyt8218 You couldn't comprehend the characters? Sure they were really badly written, but at least some of their motivations had a bit of sense to them. I'm sure there are plot summaries on youtube you can watch if you need to understand them.
@@alexanderinoa7850 u misunderstood The characters are well written Them saying the parallels and characters are forced is such a stupid argument Its like saying the first game forced u to like joel and ellie
I would like to point out a little flaw about this whole revenge story- the vast trail of dead bodies Abby and Ellie leave behind... well, im sure they have family and friends too, who also might be upset by losing their loved ones
honestly, i think that applies to the idea of revenge. those people, while unnamed, probably had people they cared about and people that cared for them. it shows how revenge is never black and white nor does it only ever involve the people wanting/escaping revenge. it’s a cycle and we only saw ellie break it
Also the fact that revenge cycle is broken when you just kill the avenger. Its philosophy is about as deep as a puddle. Just like the batman not killing people quote "KIll a murderer, and the number of murderers stay the same" Then kill two murderers dumbass lol.
And if you listen to director's commentary, Neil Druckmann points out quite a lot that Ellie becomes ruthless and kills without thinking. And that was a big point they made in TLOU2. Ellie's search for revenge takes away all her humanity, so she doesn't care how long the trail of bodies are, all she wants is revenge. Same goes for Abby until she meets Lev.
I personally loved the ending. Ever since Joel’s death, Ellie hadn’t been able to see his face without it being beaten to a pulp - look through her journal and you can tell she’s traumatised by the image. Of course you’d want revenge on the person who killed your dad, because Abby did, because Ellie did, because anyone who has experienced murder would against the killer. But as she’s on the verge of getting this revenge, as Abby is fighting for her life, we see Joel playing his guitar on his porch - which we know was one of his favourite ways to relax from the first game. This is no different to Abby being able to see her dad alive in her dream as opposed to seeing him dead, and she is able to move on after that. She found her purpose - looking after Lev and finding the Fireflies - and something worth fighting for. Ellie realises that even if Abby dies at that point, Joel is still gone, but at that moment she can see him as she knew him in his life, not during his brutal death. And that is why she lets Abby go. Her purpose *was* revenge but it’s fruitless and always has a cost. Lev may well have came after her for killing Abby and the cycle would have continued, and what purpose does that have? None.
This is a really good take. I HATED the ending when I first saw it, but as I've done some growing in my own life I've come to appreciate the central message far more and I can see it's value much more than I did. Still hurts like hell, especially that last scene with Joel, but it felt like that very relatable slow ache of loss, something that I don't think I've ever felt in a game before
@@clappagemcpheeI think that’s kind of the whole point of it, right? Letting go is never an easy thing to do, especially when it comes down to something that’s deeply hurt you in some way (whether it’s physical or mental or otherwise) but is still possible to do. I mean… Ellie literally slaughtered every single WLF and Seraphite that she came across and the whole time brought her no closure at all. Joel was gone the whole time and that brutal image was still fresh in her mind because of her anger, her pain, her trauma. Plus not to mention, the feeling of being defeated too. Abby defeats Ellie a couple of times in the game technically. When Ellie was pinned down and forced to watch it unfold, in the theatre when her and Abby fight too, Abby wins constantly. So maybe at the end on the beach, Ellie finally winning, then experiencing a nice memory of Joel playing his guitar on the porch, I’d even go as far as to say feeling guilty about robbing Lev of Abby could have been things that finally lead her to let go? All of those things aren’t easy to deal with and do take a significant amount of time to get through (and sometimes takes a severe amount of destruction along the way) but are still possible to do. So to see Ellie finally let go of it all was at first angering for me but over time, I’ve also learned the importance of it and therefore understand the need for that scene? I might be talking out of my ass here but that’s just how I see it 😅
Okay but why does she suddenly see Joel calm just as she's about to get what she came for when literally 2 minutes before that she saw Joel's bloody face before her?
Not only was Abby going to kill Dina, but when Ellie tells her that Dina’s pregnant, Abby goes “Good.” and tries killing her anyway LMFAO. How am I supposed to sympathize or care about this stupid character in any way or be convinced that she isnt the bad person here and Joel is the monster?
One thing I've noticed about this game is that most criticisms of contrivances or "plot holes" are the result of people who just straight up didn't pay attention, or even worse, didnt even play the game. I could list examples, but there are honestly so many that I don't know where to start.
Honestly, I hated the way this story unfolded. Abby and Ellie are not the same. What Joel did was to save Ellie. Abby's father was going to kill Ellie. Abby doesn't see the difference. These are not parallel characters. Abby is just a bully and having us play her character and eventually escape fate is a disservice to the story. It can be good storytelling to portray the flip the protagonist and antagonist only if they are mirrors of each other. But this is not that.
From Abby's perspective, her father died at the hands of a man who directly slowed down the chance for a vaccine to be developed. She can only see Joel as a terrorist. Joel is pretty much the main villain of the first game. (I would still have done what Joel did) I do agree that playing as Abby didn't feel very good. I had absolutely no attachment to her as a character. It was a questionable decision.
@@anewfuture Abby not seeing her wrong is what I really hate about her, I get why she killed Joel it's not that difficult to understand, but it's still stupid, and in the end she doesn't even talk about it, like, does she even understand that Ellie is the immune girl? Why she just can't understand that Joel was saving her? This is a sign of a small brain to me
No. Joel murdered them all - that didn't need to be done. He killed Abbie's father, she was just a little girl who needed her dad too. Calling her a 'bully' is just silly. She followed the natural course of justice after what Joel did. I mean, look at all the butchering Ellie does to Abbie's crew. She kills a pregnant woman! And Abbie lets her go a SECOND TIME! That's hardly a bully. Again, I think you're calling her that cos she looks like a guy, lol. Because everything else you say makes no sense.
One of the things that bugs me most about the contrived nature of Joel and Abby meeting, is how she doesn't even consider letting him live. He saves her life and an hour later she doesn't even wrestle with herself over killing him, not even questioning her initial motivation to go on this quest? Why wouldn't she begin to doubt the path that she's on? She could have been asking herself if she really saw the death of her father in the right way and whether or not Joel was perhaps acting justified. That perhaps he was not at all the murderous, morally apathetic monster she thought he was. This would add further to the moral ambiguity of killing Ellie for a potential cure and give us a new perspective. There is so much more depth that could have been explored here, but instead we don't even get to experience what Abby told Joel in the minutes she was torturing him... Such a missed opportunity that just rubs more salt into the wound of how contrived and shallow the setup of their meeting is.
@@lrsb1678it literally is idk why this commenter wanted her entire arc to be within the first 5 minutes of meeting her 😭😭 it’s to show she was completely blinded by rage and didn’t care that he saved her and also to show how Ellie became the exact same way
@@NoNo-oe8vp Truuuu. Also, Joel condemns the ENTIRE PLANET to the apocalypse without blinking in the first game. Surely by now we understand people make rash decisions in this series.
She never question anything because she doesn't have a brain, she doesn't even understand why Ellie wants to kill her "we let you live and you came back to kill us? " she ask Ellie when they meet, well no shit Sherlock, she doesn't even question Isac she just beat up people for him, and at the beginning she doesn't even question if killing a 14 years old might be wrong, I mean is she just a psychopath?
You argue that the way that Joel, Tommy, and Abby find each other at the start of the game didn't make sense because it was purely coincidental but I strongly disagree. After the '4 years later' cutscene we are given the initial narrative that Joel & Tommy went on patrol, but they haven't been heard from for hours, and they also tell you that there's a lot more infected than usual on their patrol route, so you can presume that Joel & Tommy are dealing with too many infected and are being forced to run away to safety, which causes them to eventually be lost. This is also the entire reason that Ellie goes looking for Joel, because he supposedly never showed up to his next lookout. When playing as Abby, you see that she's going in the direction of a cabin, marked by a window of light in the snow. Owen says that he saw a patrol go from that "outpost" to another. Of course, if Tommy & Joel were patrolling on this route but got lost because of the infected, they are going to run to the only safe place. This is reflected perfectly when you play as Abby at the beginning. You encounter a giant horde of infected and end up having no choice but to run, and the only safe place you find is the same place that Joel & Tommy are. Is this a coincidence? Yes, absolutely. I understand that to say that they just so happened to be on this patrol route is a coincidence, but that doesn't make it illogical. In real life, coincidences happen all the time and there's little way of knowing they're going to happen. That's what coincidences are. Hell, even Abby didn't know that it was Joel and Tommy helping her until they said their names. Just because something lined up doesn't make the story writing "lazy" To call their writing lazy in the first place is extremely unfair considering the amount of time they put into just the writing. They didn't just slap it together as you paint it, they did actually take the effort in every detail of the story. I think you are overlooking key points of information because you are letting your initial emotions about the game get the better of you. And it's ironic because that's what the game is about lol. Sure it's illogical to systematically kill everyone Abby ever cared about, but its not always about just logic. The way people feel about things and how they act on it is what is playing the key role in this story, and that is something you're missing as well when analyzing this game.
I don't understand why people get so hung up on Joel and Tommy entering the lodge with Abby. They are caught in a blizzard and there is a massive horde of infected hunting them down. Joel and Tommy are on guard, but are caught in a desperate situation and had no choice. Their choice was get torn apart by infected or take refuge with strangers. It makes perfect sense.
In the commentary for the game Neil mentions the trailer lie was a mistake and that he regrets doing it. Also, your video was unlucky to come out a few days before the Grounded II documentary about the making of the game.
After watching Grounded II, I don’t think a great deal has changed for me to be honest. Maybe more understanding of the decision behind why they went for this kind of story, but that’s probably it.
Great video but… you said it was bad writing that Ellie asks why she’s never met another immune. In the first game, Joel told her that there were dozens of others like her. I think her asking Joel that, was supposed to be rhetorical
When the writers of this game wanted us to hate Abby for killing Joel and then, with given context, understand her, failed to realize one key detail. WE PLAYED AS JOEL for the ENTIRE first game. Our love for the character was simply far larger than whatever feelings you'd get for Abby, watching her end him with torture (which by the way, is far more than just shooting/stabbing her dad) created, right away, hatred towards the character. For many, that hatred never left, in fact, i'd say the game only FUELS it once you play as Ellie. Isn't that the point? Ellie's part is a REVENGE QUEST. WHERE'S THE REVENGE? Abby gets everything, Ellie gets nothing. And this is the so called Game of the Year? Oh, please.
Abby lost all her friends and it didn’t bring her any happiness. If you cared about Ellie you should be happy she didn’t go thru with it. Killing Abby wouldn’t have been 1 kill, it would’ve been 3, including the good memories she had with Joel. They’d have been tainted because it’d all have led back to that moment, y’know like what we saw with Abby and how her group fractured after that. But hey, not surprising you and many others missed the obvious!
Abby gets everything? What game did you play? Clearly not TLOU2. After losing her father and her community(to a mass murder)she went on a revenge mission for 4 years. But when she finally accomplished it, she didn't get closure. It made everything worse for her and the friends she had left. Now they weren't just haunted by the deaths of the fireflies but also by the brutal killing of the enemy. After that the two people she didn't kill because she thought they hadn't anything to do with it come after her and brutally murder the friends she has left including the man she (probably) loves and his pregnant(/more or less innocent/medical) girlfriend. They were both overall good people. She is able to confront the girl that did all of this but decides to let her go another time. She is ready to move on with her life and the new kid she's friends with now. She gets into some bad stuff and right when she's about to die the girl shows up AGAIN first rescueing her than threatening the only person she has left to make her fight the girl. She almost kills you but then sees how pointless it is. I mean it's not the worst ending for Abby but it's pretty bad. Ellie could have loved ones to if she had decided to stay with Dina and JJ. Ellie decides to end up alone
It makes perfect sense why Tommy left Ellie behind. Joel murdered all those people to save Ellie, and he died for it. Joel gave his life to make sure Ellie would live. Tommy didn't want to risk the life of Ellie. If Tommy let Ellie go out and get killed, then Joel died for nothing. Tommy made it his responsibility to do his best to make sure Ellie survived for Joel.
I've never understood the idea that Joel was disrespected in his death. These characters arent superhuman or anything and they live in a violent, cruel world. Ofc theyre going to die suddenly and withour splendor. And the game vilified Ellie because from the pov we're playing as, she IS. That's kind of the point. Abby doesn't do anything more reprehensible than Ellie does. People are just butt hurt because they don't want to picture the character they like as potentially being morally questionable
TLOU2 imo is like a masterpiece metal album, the entire industry isn't going to understand and appreciate it. But those who love these kinds of stories/music will find it the best that the medium has to offer.
What? It was to help show how focused Ellie was on getting revenge. She was always very hesitant on going back to Jackson despite Dina being pregnant. Everytime it was brought up she strayed away from the conversation and brushed it off. It was also so that JJ could be a constant reminder of Jesse and the consequences of Ellie seeking revenge. If you didn't understand the story then just say that instead of bashing the game and the dozens of people that spent years making it.
Noone upset at all that joel didn’t describe what happened at all to ellie, just told her “yea i killed them because they wanted to kill you.” not… “They knocked me out trying to save you from drowning, put a gun to my head and told me you needed to die, lied to me saying there wasn’t any other way and didn’t want to at-least humor the person who brought ellie DAYS of travel to the base safely by testing on you… not just outright kill you in a haphazard non-guaranteed way of MAYBE getting a cure. Not to mention they didn’t ask you , they purposely kept you unconscious so they didn’t possibly have to contest a child maybe valuing their life more then a low chance cure? A cure that a terrorist group (with a history with shitty choices and decision) may monopolize on the surviving humans of the world??. I just called them on their flawed decision and they threatened to kill me for caring about your wellbeing.” If he even said ANY of those points ellie wouldn’t just idk… ice him out? Let alone the narrative aspect of killing him so early and ruining the rest of the game for people who wanted tlou2 to be a sequel and a focus on idk… the relationship of ellie and joel? the WHOLE point of the first game? They set up abby so poorly and the back and forth narrative could’ve been done so much better. Im so upset and i hope the movie series change up joels passing or ill never forgive Naughty Dog for crippling this franchise like this
I the first game there is a dialogue in which ellie says that it is stupid to sacrifice few people to save the majority.... But in the second part she completely changes reasoning
@@gaia7240 Oh my god there is no way you're this thick. The entire plot of the story, literally the whole plot, revolves around how Ellie's search for revenge turns her into a monster and changes everything about her. That's the exact contrast the game is looking to create, and clearly does. In the first game, Ellie is a 14 year old girl who still shows a lot of empathy and is still quite moral considering the world she lives in whilst in TLOU2 she's the opposite. Hence why she no longer agrees or thinks that it is "stupid to sacrifice a few people to save the majority" which by the way doesn't make any sense for the first game and I don't think she said that so I am guessing you meant to say the opposite
Neil Druckmann talks about this in directors commentary actually. It's so much more powerful because Joel doesn't even need to say the words. Ellie knew the truth the whole time and began to resent Joel which we see in the flashback where they go through the hotel for guitar strings. So when Joel said "Making a cure would've killed you", it shows that Ellie knows exactly what he means and has known for a very long time. It just hurt so much more when Joel confirmed it
Ellie didn't lose Dina. The ending of the game shows Ellie wearing Dina's bracelet which Dina held onto when she left, not to mention she has a jacket on. It's not supposed to be Ellie being alone, its her moving on from Joel after not being able to play guitar, and living the rest of her life with Dina. The reason why you didn't see this is because the game does an awful job showcasing this, the last scene we get of Dina is her saying that if Ellie leaves, they're done, only for her to, offscreen, turn around and accept Ellie. This is what I hope the writers were doing at least, because Ellie losing everything after breaking the cycle of violence destroys the first games amazing ending.
Maybe they went back to Jackson, seeing as JJ would be around 2 or 3 years old at the time of ellie’s return, and it would have been mighty hard for Dina to take care of him alone
I have some big plot issues with this game, the convenience of the horde pushing everyone in the right direction and right time, Jesse leaving Dina alone in an unsecured base to go with Ellie to find Tommy, Mel and Owen's confrontation with Ellie regarding the pregnancy, the tension and suspense of Ellie's POV being completely reset, 1-2 moments involving the Dina-Ellie-Jesse love triangle which I didn't like, Yara teleporting to Abby to save her from Tommy, and stuff like that. However, from a more story-based perspective from the 2 main characters in this one I fairly liked it. Tommy leaving Ellie and wanting her locked up makes sense because he's trying to protect her while that darker side of him from his Firefly days and when he and Joel were hunters has been brought to the forefront basically. There are pieces of context in several areas of this game and even the last game that support the softening of Joel. For example, in the last game after fighting alongside Henry and putting his trust in Henry (also due to him having a younger brother) he slept alongside them once they were safe. The game also makes it clear that Joel has been put into the patrol position which due to the reliability and caring Haven project as shown in a paper from Ellie Day 2 alongside those patrol notebooks and other context clues/dialogue would support his softening. It's also important to acknowledge that Tommy was trying to establish trust with Abby in that lodge and that even if Joel said nothing she would've known anyways. Ellie's journey in Ellie's POV up to Day 3 may make the game come off as just a revenge story (reminiscing memories hint at that) but Abby's perspective recontextualizes the story into something else and in the epilogue section with Ellie this is clearly not just a revenge story anymore, there's more driving her to this point than that. The game is not trying to turn Ellie into a villain from my perspective, it is just showing Ellie going down a path of false justice with her obsession being reinforced by the memories, while Abby has already gone down that path and she's trying to come back from that by realizing her wrongs and mindset and trying to change it but fails until Lev reminds her of what's important and what she's been trying to accomplish. (Pure Survivors in this world) Yes, I will admit that the majority of the side-characters don't have as much character to them as the characters from Part I and Left Behind and I admit that the flow of the plot with certain contrivances and a few pieces of plot armor are indeed messy, but I just don't think the story is absolutely terrible like a lot of people say. I don't think it's as good as Part I and the plot construction is definitely weaker, but I just can't say that it's bad in my opinion. 7/10
"When this game focuses in on Joel and Elllie, I love it." Exactly. This is what fans who were so disappointed by this sequel feel as well. And thats why it is so upsetting and downright annoying that the game forces you into false sympathy for a random character that we don't give a rats ass about. I expected Joel to die in this game as well, but not the way he did. It was so incredibly disappointing and a very unfitting end for a beloved character. I agree that the "Abbys crew" characters are terribly written and are such nothing characters that I genuinely wonder why the game puts such emphasis on them. But the worst thing of all is the pacing. It feels like you're constantly being thrown back to scenarios you've already went through. It's repetitive and annoying. Also the constant guilt-trip the game tries to brute force you into is so draining, I found myself in too many eye rolling moments to count. All in all, this game tried way too hard to be fancy with a nothing B-Story when they could have just given us more Ellie and Joel surviving the apocalypse together. Make him die in the end, sure, make it a not happy ending, thats fine. But this was not it NaughtyDog.
This game is so frustrating because some aspects work well but so much of it is just bad. The gameplay is solid and some scenes work really well but for every scene that works there's 1 that is just bad.
i think ellie leaving dina for revenge in the end then coming back for her not seeing them there signifies it was ellie's decision that made them leave regardless of ellie sparing abby or killing her..
It’s lucky but not crazy Joel and Abby ran into it. All of Jackson’s top shooters do patrol every week if not every day and Abby and her crew where literally sleeping in one of the lookout points they check on and use. Abby’s crew walked into the outer perimeter of Jackson. It was very convenient but it is possible.
i'm getting bored of seeing videos with titles like "deep dive" on TLOU2 or "reflecting on" TLOU2 or "revisiting the controversy"-- but then the bulk of the video essay is just listing off the plot points one at a time. it feels a lot like a wiki-summary of the game meant for people who have never played it. like bro, the title of this video is clearly aimed at people who have played the game already, so i really don't get why you spend so long explaining the plot. It does not go in "deep" at all, and your little notes about your feelings toward the plot show that you still refuse to engage with the story even after all this time. if you actually want to understand the game, I recommend the scene series that TLOUexplained channel is doing right now. even if you don't agree with the content of the videos, maybe you can at least learn what the format of an analysis video essay actually sounds like
47:42 Respectfully, I feel that you missed the point of the story; twice. It’s not overt. The story respects and challenges its audience by not spelling out every theme but it’s about Ellie keeping her humanity. While she’s trying to drown Abby, we see a flash of Joel. Then once you get to the ending flashback of the game, you realize those are the same moments and it answers why she let Abby go. What does the last flashback say to you? Of course there are many perspectives of it but one of main themes that connects the flashback and the glimpse of Joel during the final fight with Abby and Ellie is forgiveness. Yes, breaking the cycle of violence is an important theme they’re trying to convey but Ellie is so driven by anger and revenge. So much that she’s willing to give up her happy life with Dina. Then when she finally gets the opportunity to put an “end” to her source of trauma, she’s reminded of her humanity and how she was able to forgive Joel. Or at the very least begin to forgive. It would have been easy and unfulfilling for Ellie to kill Abby. Abby’s experience of killing Joel proves that. Ellie learns that by forgiveness, she can finally start to let go of her trauma and move on. The same lesson she was beginning to learn by forgiving Joel. It took her a long time not to let rage and revenge get the better of her but by letting Abby go, it showed her growth over the game and was a far more profound conclusion than a bloodbath ending in another murder.
Ellie woulda never let her go in her state of mind. It is pathetically preachy and stupid, I personally think you are missing the point of what people were mad about. A preachy story that forces us to sympathise with a character with little to no agency
Oh, the ever so subtle lesson of "REVENGE BAD". A lot of people failed to grasp it, thank you for explaining the deep themes of the narrative, now I can finally enjoy this masterpiece.
@@jeronimo196 yes? you know why we have the court system? because before the modern rule of law, revenge killings between families were a serious problem. one side has to forgive eventually
the issue with most of yall is: you want everything to be comfortable, enjoying and satisfying. Video game is clearly a form of art, and art is able to challenge the viewer/reader/player. We play as Abby because, even tho it's frustrating, it's necessary to comprehend both sides of the story and fully be immersed on its themes. Every character does what they do because, in this game, they think like humans. They have distinct feelings, reactions and decisions. The characters aren't just doing what would please the majority of players. They have souls and hearts and minds, and they use them. Not everything is made for you to end happily. Some stories are tragic, underwhelming, and take unexpected directions. Am i saying you CAN'T dislike the game? Absolutely not. I'm just pointing out that some of the "mistakes" and "bad writing" of the game are actually not bad at all, they're just not the safe way to go if you want to please everyone and make a meaningless story.
i would also like to mention that the narrative structure is simply perfect. It's so disruptive, innovative and I can't possibly believe people are still complaining about it, 4 years later.
Although Joel letting his guard down is unrealistic, I don’t think it would of changed his fate. They were already planning on making someone from Jackson tell them about Joel and Tommy. His death may have occurred a few minutes later but they would of been captured by abbies group in that scene no matter what.
As for Joel dying so early, I don’t have a gripe w it. Part II does a good job of making you feel what it’s like to live in that world and with that, you never know when someone is going to go. It can be sudden. As for Tommy leaving without Ellie I believe it was to keep her safe
We all need to accept that the story of TLOU2 was not well written. The fact that people hate Abby as much as they do when the game wants the opposite reaction tells u everything u need to know. Many forms of media has done it. Making u empathize with the bad guy, and they were successful becoz of good writing.
I think people hate Abbie because she looked like a guy. Despite all their justifications, that's what I believe is the real reason. Because I warmed to Abbie after playing her - she had her own story and motives, her own reason for doing what she was doing which was as valid as Joel's or Ellie's. People just wanted an exact copy of the first game... there was no way that was gonna happen.
@@harmonygalvin1814 she look pretty normal to me? Yeah there are some fools who think she is "Too Woke" but majority of gamers hate her becoz of her action, and it's not just her, the entire game is poorly written and has a lot of oversights. A lot of characters act out of character which makes the overall experience sour.
Quick correction for the Epilogue when Ellie returns to the abandoned farmhouse. It’s subtle & easily missable, but the scene starts where u can see Ellie wearing Dina’s bracelet. Signifying that she already has returned to Jackson and to JJ& Dina. She’s basically leaving the guitar behind to move on. So it’s not as bleak as most would think. But great analysis, I enjoyed this video & gave me even more perspective on the game as a whole. So thank you
Manny's dad was most likely also a firefly. We're introduced to him shortly after Abbie's half of the game gets underway. While it's not explicitly stated, I think in all likelihood he was the one who know about Tommy's whereabouts. We also don't know how many other fireflies joined the WLF - any number of them could have known Tommy. So I don't think this was lazy writing. I actually think it was carefully thought through.
I still find it weird when people say the game “manipulates” the player into liking Abby. The game “manipulates” literally every perception you have of every single character on screen because it’s a piece of fictional media. If the game was only ever told from Abby’s point of view, and you never played as Ellie at all or knew who she was, you’d be on Abby’s side 100%. It’s not manipulative, it’s just called introducing a new character that achieves the emotions the developers wanted you to feel. Like ALL media does.
All media is meant to ellicit emotions. People complaning about manipulation are in a sense wrong that all media is built on manipulating the audience. But we shouldn't be taking complaints at surface level and assume that's all their worth, that's of no use to anyone instead we should be digging for the reason behind why people feel the game is 'manipulative'. That isn't too difficult as this isn't a new phenomenon, people feel its manipulative because its too overt and on the nose in attempting to ellicit emotions from the player something that really isn't that rare in stories. In the same manner a war film can feel overt for having the side character with no real scenes before tell everyone about how they have a family waiting for them minutes before dying.
Personally, I don't think that the concept of switching perspectives was too ambitious for a video game. The story of the game could be amazing if they were willing to make the game longer and get rid of some coincidences. And if they were to redo the timeline and make it more linear, like for example if we were to play all those flashbacks before Joel's death we as the players would have been even more eager to do the things we do with Ellie. Also, we could've played for Abby from the beginning, getting to know her and maybe finding a liking to her, we could have longer "flashbacks" so we could play with her and get to know her rather than be crushed when her father would die (nice parallel to Sara, before she would kill Joel). After playing as young Abby we would start the game with young Ellie. We would do all of her flashback parts before playing the actual start of the game. The concept, adventure, and story aspect of the game would be a proper sequel to the first game. Only if they would put it together differently and didn't rely on coincidence.
Well, I know that a lot of people are gonna disagree with me on this one but it is okay and I believe that this is the beauty of this hobby. First of all, very nicely structured video! Now on the matter at hand, I really don't believe that Joel's death has bad writing. First of all, it is established that Joel and Tommy have nowhere to go to escape the hoard's attack and Abby gives them the only solution that seems like a viable option. From there it is really Tommy the one that introduces him and Joel while Joel doesn't even talk that much. Additionally, I believe that Joel really wished to change for the better after the end of the fisrt game and that meant getting "softer" and more easy-going and trustful towards other people, with these changes on his character tragically leading to his death, showing us once again that this world is really brutal towards the kind hearted. I also believe that his death happening so early in the game is a great choice, able to let us feel how Ellie also thinks that it is too early for her to loose Joeal, especially after she decided that she wants to forgive him.
When Ellie asks the question why she hasn't seen anyone else who is immune, it's because in the first game, Joel tells her there were more like her and they didn't need her anymore. 18:50
One of the failure of this narrative by basing it off Joel's past coming to do him in the end, is the very fact that by that resolve, all of the 7 - 11 people Ellie killed have family members, friend etc waiting in line to come after Ellie. Also this goes for Abby and her friend. The basis of the blame is strange when everyone else are murderers in similarity with Joel. Remembering that Joel was not killed for the potential preventing a cure. He was killed because he killed an NPC character. The setup was understandable but was weaker choice to set off the story. I am pretty sure with proper brain storming the writers could have came up with a better way for Joel to die because by this method there are lines of people waiting to kill Abby, Ellie etc. Also Joel did not just outright killed Abby's father, the man was threatening Joel and was in the way of a fed-up Joel rescuing Ellie. Abby know well why her father died because she was implicated in the notion of her father actually going through to killing Ellie.
not to mention it forces you to kill that npc, it literally wasnt a choice, even if you dont shoot him he comes at you with the blade and joel puts it into the dudes neck. plus i love how abby doesnt seem to care that her dad was going to kill a child in the first place. and you spend the whole first game seeing that its all 100% needed to act that way to survive
@@noahbarnett8101 of course they don't pay attention, they only fixate on what serves their narrative to keep hating on Abby. Most people in TLOU universe are shit, fanboys just cannot get over their fave's death and then having to play as the one who killed their fave. Fanboys pick and choose story beats that suit them and makes them feel like their misogyny is justified. I mean listen to the OP, repeatedly calling it lazy writing by omitting very crucial parts, like Tommy leaving for Seattle 'not making any sense' all the while leaving Tommy's letter to Maria saying LOCK ELLIE UP out of his analysis. these people will never look at the bigger picture, they're just butthurt their fave character got killed
while ill say they are definitely trying to mirror ellie with the abby flash backs and with lev, and part of the point being them trying to make you like her. i would also say they do it to show that the no one is the villain and no one is the victim, i think they should have given abby her own unique backstory stuff but i do like the lev part even if its similar. point being ellie is a villain because i mean just look at her, but she is also the victim because of joel. Joel is definitely a villain but his death also makes him a victim. abby is the villain for killing joel but also the victim of joel. non of them are specifically one or the other but because we got the first game with joel and ellie we completely look past that because she cracked his skull. i think they knew their was no way to get the players to actually like abby but making them see her as someone similar to joel would make them think twice about simply naming her bad in this story.
I don’t think it really matters weather or into Ellie had spared Abby. She had already gone way to fair and the sentiment of leaving Dina and her child is bad enough no?
This is a fantastic and very fair critique of the game. I’m so glad you brought up Mel putting herself in CONSTANT COMBAT situations while 300 months pregnant, like she’s such a stupid character I swear to god. While I absolutely loathe this game and its entire premise, retconning a nameless doctor into someone else entirely is such a problem for me and makes the existence of this story SO contrived, I do agree with you that the premise of Abby as a character is SO interesting and could’ve been done SO well. I believe Abby should’ve had her own self contained story that did not include Joel and Ellie, it could’ve set it up for a final confrontation, but I believe there’s so much great potential to not only Abby, but her relationship with the WLF and how it relates to this “cycle of violence”, the Seraphites are very interesting and also Isaac, yet the game is so loaded there’s zero time to fully explore these themes, characters, and lore. I fully believe the game would’ve been so much better and way more well received if the game focused ONLY on Abby as the protagonist as she struggles with the loss of her father and how violent and angry she’s been. The WLF are a really awful and violent group, so I think relating that to what Joel did would be an interesting way to develop Abby in having her arc be that she realizes how awful the WLF are (literally training people to be torturers and killers) and how she’s no better than whoever killed her father and this violence that she’s perpetuating doesn’t serve her and only continues the cycle. It would’ve just been so much more interesting and everyone would’ve had so much more time to breathe and develop. Anyway, great video again, and I really enjoyed it.
@@dreero_ “the act, practice, or result of changing an existing fictional narrative by introducing new information in a later work that recontextualizes previously established events, characters, etc.” The way I used it is correct, but nice try. Keep licking that boot baby, I hope it still taste good after all these years.
you do realize that Mel is a medic, right? You also realize that Issac is gathering his troops at the main base and while Mel and company were on the way there, they got ambushed. That wasn’t planned. Mel was simply needed at a base and was going there. Did y’all even pay attention?
@stevenburrows240 she is driving through a warzone while 8 months pregnant. Sure, she didn't expect to get ambushed, but she is unnecessarily putting her child's life at risk. The WLF is a huge group, they will have had plenty of medics that could handle it.
I hope jeffrey wright reprises his role as isaac in the tv show. He’s up for a best actor oscar this year, if he’s in the show they’ll have to flesh out the character more. You hear so much about Isaac before you meet him, its disappointing how little consequence he has in the story in the end.
It reminded me of the movie 1917. How all the high ranking people in positions of authority are played by "big name" actors, even though they get very little screen time and are basically cameos in the main characters story. It conveys to the viewer, that these people are a big deal within the world of the narrative, even if they're not part of "our story" for very long.
@@pumpyronaldrump_4417 I think it was good. Not every story needs to be sunshine and rainbows. It's a dark story that makes you feel very strong feelings, for me that's a good thing.
@@elproson1 it's not about the games story not being happy, it's about how they did it. The writer's basically spit in your face, and then call you a bad person for being mad. It feels like moral grandstanding especially since as how this guy pointed out, Ellie kills so many people but stops right at the end for Abby which somehow apparently stops the cycle of violence, and still gets punished by Dina leaving. It's the equivalent of some modern artist puking on a classical painting and then saying you are mad because you are too dumb to understand it. The only reason this game has good elements is because it builds on the last game, which was good. Guarantee you that all of those things people dislike is shit that Neil pushed on it once the competent writers of Naughty Dog were ran off the company.
I think you can make an argument that the reason Joel had his guard down when Tommy and him first encounter Abby’s group is not due to him “getting soft” but mainly because he knows he doesn’t want to be the man he used to be. The thought of sacrificing the continuation of the human race to save one person and in the end that person can hardly look you in the eyes is gut wrenching. While he knows deep down what he did was wrong, he had his reasons and it still left him without the connection that had been fostered between him and Ellie. He carries the guilt of the human race, and the guilt of Ellie hating him everyday. He wants to be the good person that Ellie can love and he has to do this by making out of character decisions that allow him to rebuild a sense of empathy for others. There is no atonement for his sins but if he can make small decisions that allow him opportunities to change for the better than he will do it. The “getting soft” narrative is flat to me and it doesn’t truly recognize the depth of emotional torment and desire to be a better person that Joel fights with on a daily basis. While it is undeniably out of character from the first game, how can anyone be expected to change themselves for the better if they continue to think and make decisions that led them to their current situation which has caused an unfathomable amount of grief, regret, and emotional torment?
I agree with many things about yor opinion. The pace is not the best. Story depends heavily on contrivances. But it is, overall, a great story. As a colombian, it speaks to me loudly. The point of the game, for me, is not that Abby is suddenly the good guy and Ellie the bad guy. For me, it is that, in war, there´s really not good or bad people, just people. And people always is rigtheous in their own eyes. Is a tale of Us against Them, but we are both at the same time. Abby is capable of good and wrong, as is Ellie, and as was Joel. I deal with war crimes in my job all the time, and when you interview the people who commited them, you realize they are just people. They still commited those horrible things and deserve to face consecuences, but they are just people. The story, for me, trascends a videogame. Is deep. It portrays violence as horrible as it is. As something you should be uncomfortable with, even pretending to do it playing on a PS5. And im glad both of them survived at the end. It´s an awful world as it is. Anyway, very good video. Just wanted to share my perspective.
@@LowOnAmmoLoa personally i feel the second part will do much better as a show because film as a medium is more welcoming to stories that provoke negative emotions. Joel and ellie don't need to survive till the end all jolly for the story to be good thats just your personal bias speaking. The first games menu was that of a window with light peeking through it. and that's exactly what we god, joel finding light in this lost world. The second games menu was a boat in the fog on still water. There's a clear contrast between what the first game was trying to convey vs the second.
@@LowOnAmmoLoahow can you possibly say “everything from the first game is ruined” when Ellie is still alive. The entire point of Joel’s sacrifice was to keep Ellie alive, and not only is she still alive, but Joel’s killer is forever in Ellie’s debt for letting her live. Yall need to chill
@@LowOnAmmoLoa character assassinated?? They literally live in a post apocalyptic world--the world itself will assassinate your character lol. Also everyone in the first game is in a completely different set of circumstances (ie: Joel now having a "daughter" who he succeeded saving but is no longer talking to him; Ellie having a family, community, and home), and has become a different person. I mean look at how Tommy changed--Jackson made him a softie but as soon as his brother died he's doing the same torture and killing that Joel did. Hell he even becomes jaded and obsessed (like Joel was in TLOU1) and ruined his marriage. I get it, not everyone likes sad stories but to call it a "bad" story makes no sense. It's a horrifically sad story, but it's told damn well. All the discomfort I felt as a player was mirrored in the characters--narrative mission accomplished 🎯
Gamers love to talk about video games being art. But the moment art pushed them out of their comfort zone, they freak out and want to go back to what makes them feel good.
One interesting thing I noticed from talking to people is that the game seems to have been much better received by people who played the second game immediately after their first playthrough of the first game. It actually makes a lot of sense why people who play both games for the first time back to back would love the story, because you're going into the first game expecting it to be a part 1 rather than a standalone story, and thus the second game having the previous game's emotional climax as the driving point for the entire story doesn't feel as...awkward? I guess awkward would be the word? Like for me, as someone who played the first game when it first came out and really came to appreciate its value as a perfect standalone story, it was already really jarring to imagine what a sequel would be like, and it was really awkward when the sequel's entire plot and emotional driving force turned out to be HIGHLY motivated by the events of the first game. This isn't a universally bad approach for sequels, but it is a bad approach when the first installment's impact and success explicitly comes from the fact that the story was left open ended and with lack of closure. When I try to think of a parallel, I imagine if Christopher Nolan suddenly made an Inception sequel where you see if the top stops spinning or not. Like no, nobody wants that. At all. Likewise, I genuinely did not want to see what happened next in Joel and Ellie's relationship. That's not the point of the ending. Before I rant too much, I'll just say that it definitely was possible for the Last of Us to have a universally loved sequel, but I think in order to do that it would have needed to essentially sideline the events of the main story to a big extent. I always look at Better Call Saul (prequel to Breaking Bad) and Puss in Boots The Last Wish (spin off to Shrek) as golden examples of how to make compelling spin off/sequel/prequel to a beloved story. Each of these respective stories expanded on both a beloved character and the world that the first story took place in, but they are EXTREMELY careful to leave the events of the first story completely untouched. Any reference to the initial story is done very sparingly and in more of an easter-eggy way, as the writers want to be very careful to not interfere with something that the audience already views as complete.
i will always try to respect the criticisms given to the direction delivery and decisions made for the story even if they all worked for me i understand that this game asks alot of the common player to get onboard , tho i will never get behind the gameplay downplays as i see this game as a true peak in that regard it just feels incredible to handle and went above and beyond in that aspect even when most people will just play it to get from one cutscene to the next
@@bailoch I played them both back to back, it's literally the exact same, or it was improved. There was technically speaking no back step at all, so I don't know how you came to that conclusion.
@@bailoch gun play feels more satisfying just off of the polish in Animation sound design and impact but by far the biggest upgrades were environment (stealth and whatnot) and Enemy Ai the second game didnt add much it added simple things and made sure to expand the creativity and feel off it to the max idk how you come to that conclusion the first game handles fine and is a blast overall the second game is a benchmark of quality to expect for every major release
In truth, this is the Last Jedi of gaming. The only difference between release and now is the following… The people who hate it moved on and the people who love it are in their own cage. Just like Star Wars. The ones who got hooked with Clone Wars series are the current fans and all the Original Trilogy fans who got killed with the sequels moved on cause they killed their Star Wars.
One thing about the end that bothers me is when during the flashback with Joel, Ellie says "my life wouldve mattered" to ne thats selfish when she knows how much she means to Joel and maybe couldve been more understanding about his feelings and why he did what he did. But then i guess Joel was being selfish when he saved her? I dont know. The story has been left open so maybe theyll wrap things up with some of these things if and when TLOU 3 comes out
Even after killing Joel Abby’s flash backs were of her dad (PTSD) What changed in her final flash back in the hospital was Lev (Love) Ellie’s final flashback was her convo with Joel and forgiving (Love) That’s the point of the end. Killing Abby won’t fix anything. Ellie lost everything again because she went to seek out her vengeance but can you blame her? It’s not a story of revenge, it’s a story about EMPATHY which a lot of you lack and it shows.
The guy talks about 'perspective' and then only applies it in a certain sense while failing to see that no matter the objective truth of the situation from Abby's perspective Joel murdered her father in cold blood, might've killed companions that she knew in getting there, and Joel took away a potential vaccine. Combine that with the emotionally irrationality that a person goes through after something like that, and you have an emotional obsession growing.
I would also argue this isn't a revenge story. It's about forgiveness. Forgiveness of your enemies. Forgiveness of the people around you, and forgiveness of yourself. I think Ellie also hated Abby SO much because she was robbed of the chance to forgive Joel. We see the scene the night before his death where she tells him "I don't know if I can forgive you, but I'd like to try." And she never got to mend their strained relationship. Ultimately she chooses to forgive Abby and let it all go, as she would have tried with Joel. At least that's my take on it! But no, lol i certainly do not think this story is as cut and dry as "revenge is bad."
There is not a sign of actual empathy in the whole game, they are just acting out of their needs, that's it, the game is just about losing your humanity
Another terrific video! All of your points were valid, including pointing out Lev's shoes. I think it is okay to not have a clear conclusion on how to feel about The Last of Us Part 2. It had indeed created multiple debates and discussions. I am not just looking forward to seeing how HBO will adapt this divisive chapter but also the upcoming behind-the-scenes documentary on this game.
After a second time playing, I don't think you really learned all that much. Every time Abby does something or builds a connection, it's not the writers preaching to the player to like her. You don't have to like her. It just humanizes her and educates why she is breaking the cycle of violence.
Without changing the story, which is the real way to fix the game, they could have changed the entire reception by changing two things 1. Start the game on Seattle Day 1 instead of in Jackson. Have the events of the first Jackson chapter revealed throughout the game. 2. Put Abby’s POV first. Let us get to know her and start to root for her and her friends. Then, after getting to the theatre it’s revealed that it was ELLIE that killed all of her friends, then show what Abby did to kick this whole thing off. Just reframing the game would have changed this whole thing. They could have marketed it as though it was only tangentially related to the first game, with only rumors and hints that Ellie would appear. The story still wouldn’t be great, but it would have been a lot more interesting 🤷🏼
I can always agree with haters of the game about the pacing and some of the story beats not being written perfectly but it has way more good writing then flawed writing. It definitely is subtle with the way it does certain things and is heavy fisted with others. It’s the obvious choices the writers make that give certain people the prospective that the game is hollow, poorly written or coincidental. Don’t get me wrong, the biggest coincidence was Abby runnning into Joel; the other ones seem reasonable. Example: [Tommy ambushing Abby & Manny] Tommy’s must’ve been listening on a radio (as Ellie has) to know the WLF are gunna do an full army invasion on the Seraphites; so they need to get to the docs and acquire the boats. Tommy knows that’s probably the best place to hold up and wait till he has eyes on Abby or one of her friends. He sees Manny with a small scouting platoon and opens fire. (I’ll admit it’s a coincidence that Abby needed a boat too) Now what I said isn’t said anywhere but it can be pieced together by what Tommy can clearly do. He’s a survivor like Joel, he’s been solo this whole time, he found and killed a safe house of soldiers to get to Abby’s first friend. He’s survived several packs of infected. He’s capable; plus Jesse found him by hearing radio chatter. The WLF are very military like, so it’s not far fetched he is using their radio chatter against them. Back to Abby bringing Joel to her friends… I know you brought up the point that supporters make of “Joel has lived in this community for 4 years and has softened up” but that’s exactly what happened. Not that “easier life has made him soft/rusty” but more of Joel’s choices has made him softer. The point of the first game was this brutal survivor that only cares about personal gain having his rugged shell chipped away by the innocents of a child. When Joel is in Jackson he starts to be a kinder person because of and FOR Ellie. Tommy (not stated but inferred) always seemed like he was a good guy; a guy that wanted to save people. He basically had a heroic heart that Joel suffocated with his own misery. (Which the HBO show added onto by Tommy joining the U.S service and the show was co-written by Neil Druckman) Tommy joins the firefly in his want to HELP people and be a LIGHT that the fireflies once branded themselves to be. He later leaves after he realizes they’re kinda bullshit and joins a community of people that are all working together to help rebuild some type of safety. A place where people can have families and bring back some sense of happiness in this forsaken world. They become a trade city where other small communities would come through to trade, which meant they were welcoming to new comers. They say they have bandits but can be handled. With years of practice (which I agree with people that say “years of hardship they know not to trust people and just give out their names”) you can tell which people are genuine and aren’t going to harm you for the hell of it between the bandits that just want your stuff by any means necessary. Abby’s group didn’t come off as these rugged group of bandits. They seemed well taken care of and were younger. (Which usually by the age of what Abby’s group was, these kids would be doing runs for whatever camp they’re with and Jackson probably runs into kids their age to trade between communities occasionally) TOMMY being the good guys he is and always been, being in with the Jackson people for possibly 10+ years and being the co-leader of Jackson offers to HELP THEM restock and introduces HIMSELF. He then allows Joel (the brother he’s been seeing attempt to become a more open and kinder person for the likes of Ellie) to introduce himself. Joel being a better man than he once was introduces himself. [I never got why people would say “he should’ve lied”. Why would he? That just puts their own community in bad light. If you find this super nice group of people but they lie to get you in, you wouldn’t want to stay.] He was better person.. you can even see that from ALL THE FLOWERS that are at his house. People in the town care for him. If he was an asshole going around not talking to people/being toxic, people wouldn’t give a fuck about buying flowers and walking to his house to pay their respects… Abby NOW having 100% confirmation proceeds to shoot him because she knows what this man is capable of. This is “the monster” (in her eyes) that slaughter 10s of soldiers by himself. Her having a small group and Joel having his biological brother with him as backup. She decides to not risk a big fight. Who knows if this Tommy guy is as ruthless/skilled/powerful as Joel. [this next part is how I INTERPRETED the scene but other can see it another way] Abby crouches down to Joel and ask him to guess who she is. Joel then being the masculine man we all know and love, belittles her by saying “why don’t you say whatever speech you’ve got rehearsed and get this over with” (which FUCK YEAH! What a badass way to go out!) I personally saw Abby possibly putting him out of his misery like the old dog he is, since he did just save her life. Kinda like, “you scratched my back so I’ll scratch yours, but… I can’t let you go.” But since Joel put that old persona back on and is now being that monster Abby portrays him to be, she goes ahead and belittles him. Abby shows him that he isn’t this big a bad monster and proceeds to torture him. Troy Baker said this about Joel when he is attack by Abby. “There’s one thing I fall back on to the criticism of my own performance; Is there’s a specific moment. The thought that Joel has is ‘This is what happens when you drop your guard. I allowed myself to trust, I allowed myself to love, I allowed myself to feel, I allowed myself to be safe and THIS is what YOU GET!’ It is a moment of regret. Even inside that moment he goes ‘I’d do it ALL over AGAIN! Cuz what I got was the girl.’ and the fact that doesn’t come through (with out a line of dialogue, a moment of a look) if anything it falls on my failure to be able to present that moment; but rest to sure, that moment is there for Joel.”. So at the end of the day when Joel see Ellie for the last time, Troy’s quote perfectly wraps up Joel’s decisions. If you’re interested in seeing Troy baker, Ashley Johnson and Troy baker speak about the game then you can watch the YT video of them talking about it. Search - Gamecast ep. 26 The Last of us Spoilercast I know it was a long comment but I did go along to enjoy the whole video; even if I had some disagreements on some of your other arguments against the game narrative. ❤️
When you say stuff like “Ellie’s a dog killer the writers are trying to make us hate her” (rough quote) it really makes it seem like you miss the entire point. Ellie, Abby , Joel, playable characters are not the bad guys or the villains of this game and the writers aren’t trying to make them that. They are three people witnessing and participating in a seemingly never ending cycle of violence and trauma. (Hence so many characters being so hypocritical, that’s what people can be in horrific conditions) Ellie finally not killing Abby shows her growth, it also shows life is worth living, and she finally accepts Joel saving her when she lets Abby live. They aren’t bad people, they’re just people in a zombie apocalypse. Playing the game forces you to show empathy when you don’t want to, which is exactly what Ellie has to do in the end.
Wrong, this is not only surface level but trope ignorant. Pet the dog/kill the dog are verbatim tropes you can find on TVTropes. You don't even need to know that behind-the-scenes Neil Druckmann fired people for not liking Abby, to know that you *were* supposed to come out of this thinking Abby was not only the best but also a good person. You were genuinely supposed to dislike Ellie and Joel and fall head over heels over Abby,. The plan was she'd hijack the franchise after destroying everything from the first game because Neil Druckmann was upset that his ideas, like making the entire story center around revenge, were rejected.
But like, Joel showed zero remorse for the murder of her father. So why should she care about his death? "If somehow the Lord gave me another chance, I'd do it all over again"
I wouldn't say she has remorse about Joel's murder, but she definitely regrets doing it by the end of the game, considering how it directly led to her life falling apart and all her friends getting killed by Ellie, even if it's not outright stated.
One thing I consistently see people fail to mention is that, given the clues in the game, Abby is far worse than Ellie despite the writer's attempts to make it seem otherwise. That is my biggest gripe with the writing in the game. There are multiple points in Abby's story that get glossed over. For example; the torture room they mundanely walk through and dialogue that hints to Abby participating in torturing Scars, Lev asking Abby how many scars she has killed to which Abby avoids answering because we know that has to be a high number, the fact that Abby planned Joel's demise for YEARS yet we are to believe that Ellie's emotional response for revenge shortly after his death is somehow worse than the premeditated path Abby took to find and kill Joel. The writer's pointed the finger at Ellie too much given that Abby is arguably a far more terrifying and revenge driven person. I still completely love the game though. They're ability to create this kind of response and impression on someone is what makes the entire thing a masterpiece in my eyes.
These days I consider myself lucky if 2 or more games come out in one year that can make me give a single fuck. The Last of Us II is an upsetting game, its bloated, I have my issues with some of the characters, but I can respect that ND went out there and sent it. I will remember what happens in this game. I don't remember what happened in Ghost of Tsushima at all.
The reason why the game wasn’t good imo was its terrible pacing, Joel’s death happened way too quickly and after playing as Ellie for half the game it was a huge burnout having to play as Abby just so I could get back to their confrontation. You also can’t expect the player to sympathise with Abby because she’s not exactly a good person either, it’s honestly one of the most baffling stories I’ve experienced in a game and that’s probably the problem. This kind of storytelling doesn’t suit a game and I reckon the tv show will tell it a lot better.
full disclosure. I do not play video games. I'm just someone who's spent the past year doing extensive research on the source material, after loving the HBO show. If I'm off base I'd be interested to hear why from an actual gamer. Is the following statement a description of Abby's story, or Ellie's story. A young lady has her father tragically murdered. She is so consumed by the psychological horror of the incident that she is unable to fully appreciate all the reasons to live that she has in front of her. She can't let all that she has to live for distract her from her need for revenge, and in pursuing revenge, she loses much of what she had, and learns the hard way that vengence is more trouble than it's worth. Was that Abby's story, or Ellie's? The answer is of course both. The big issue with the story that they chose to tell, was that if they really wanted to tell that story, Abby was the only strictly necessary character to get the point across. But you can't just release a game and NOT have the audience play as the beloved characters from the previous game. People wouldn't have gotten on board with a game that was an Abby story, which happened to have Joel and Ellie in it, so they rushed Joel's death, in order to rush Ellie into the same situation, but this was done to set up a story for Ellie when the exact same conflict had already been set up for Abby. This meant that the story had two halves which were not only structured in a clunky way, but were two halves which were just making the same point twice (yes I see the irony in having phrased this issue multiple times) Rather than two halves of a story that elevated each other. Plus some of the supposed intention was to show things from the point of view of both team abby and team ellie to make the point that what one side might see as a monster, the other side might see as a human being. If team abby is calling team ellie monsterous, you don't even need to SEE Ellie's side in part 2, to show the flaws in that. We already saw team Ellie in the first installment.
everyone is rightfully suprised that tommy does survive the shot in the head, but ive never seen anyone thinking about the travel distance. According to google it is a 860 mile travel from seattle to jackson. So you are telling me 2 Girls, one of them beaten up and pregnant, the other one with a broken arm and face, and a Man with a bullet in the head did manage to travel 860 miles trough the country, starting in an area were they only made enemies, in a post apocalyptic world full of "zombies" and came back home alive without any explaination how?
Agree that this is not a perfect game by any means lol However, a lot of the character and character decision making critiques are what I think makes the characters real. People have hypocritical behavior in real life. Ragging on them for being hypocritical makes that a biased take against those characters. After Ellie murders a pregnant woman and reconnects with Tommy (who could have been presumed dead at that time) In a whirlwind of emotional events-I’m sure the last thing she would have been thinking about is the map she didn’t realize she dropped during a fight. I agreed with many of the takes in the beginning of this video but as it went on, a lot of the them did not feel grounded in the environment of the story and just felt very birds eye view of “why did the writers do that.” I think it’s meant to be a bit messy.
That is not how characters should work and it's literally a sign of bad or lazy writing, you need to give a reason to why a character does that or the viewer won't feel connected to it and just label it as a foolish character
