Are ribbon tweeters the best? And if so, why don't more speaker manufacturers use them? Have you gotten your copy of the Audiophile's Guide to setup? Make magic with your system using this guide and CD. www.psaudio.com/products/the-...
I've had ribbon tweeters in my system for the past twenty years - they meld with the dynamic transducers in my system beautifully and are the most natural sounding I have heard.
Funny how the ad that ran at the close of this video was Adam Audio. I was strongly considering Adam T7V but went with the Kali Audio IN-5 for my desk top studio. They are a three way coaxial tweeter/mid. REALLY nice.
I had my most epic musical experience... Other than live... Carver flat panel speakers. I was in music at USM in hattiesburg, MS I'd heard a Chellist live before. She's was amazing. I could hear the the fingers move on the strings, and the sound of the bow on the strings, not to mention the resonance of the instrument. Carver nailed it
Dunno if you guys gives a damn but if you are stoned like me during the covid times then you can watch pretty much all of the new series on instaflixxer. Have been streaming with my brother lately :)
A while back a friend gave me their old high end (at the time) Philips DVD surround system that has ribbon tweeters as the satellites. My god the clarity and richness is mind blowing. I have them set up in quadrophonic with 2 subs and sound honestly blows away my floor standing KEFs and Boland Acoustics. Ribbon is good.
I do believe this is a subject matter of preference here. Also consider when you have a talented enough speaker designer in the mix, you can make almost ANY tweeter type sound good through proper crossover design and component choice. I own a few sets of Altecs that have the "diamond coated" titanium tweeters/squakers, and they sound pretty damn smooth. Ive yet to hear a single ring come out of any of them!
@@AALavdas which audible high frequencies cannot be reproduced by non-ribbon type tweeters? Unless you’re setting up a sound system for a dog, bat or porpoise the actual upper limit of high frequencies emitted by you sound system is irrelevant. What’s important is the dynamic tweeter response curve and the “perceptual clarity and texture” of the final listening experience. In the end it’s about perception and the enjoyment of the listener which is subjective and very personal in nature. Overriding that is the music itself......something that is often ignored by audiophiles.
@@AALavdas I suppose were talking just the realm of home audio yes? We still dont see ribbons in pro audio, the compression horn still seems to be king there, no?
@@PetraKann uhh no that's most definitely not why they go up on (mainly emits) to bat frequencies. It's actually because of the ideology that nudell handed in his designs. If it can do that , it will have 0 compromise within the human hearing range. Let's first tackle issue one with Paul " wisdom" emims and emits are NOT true ribbon drivers. They are magneplanar drivers, is there a difference. As he would say "you bet your bippy" there is. True ribbon tweeters don't have voice coils laminated to a diaphragm. Emit and emim and such do. True ribbons is literally suspended strip of foil (at certain micron thickness) under tension between magnets. They have downsides, extremely low impedance (0.4 and less) which requires either a dummy load (resistor in its path) or a transformer. Extremely fragile, even a gush of air can break them. Upside, it's as low mass as you can go aside from plasma tweeters. Super responsive, low mass and in terms of clarity . You won't be able to compare it with any dome or cone just fact. So now we know the differences talked about. You story has a couple valid point, dynamic range. Well , as far as tweeters goes it's irrelevant. There is in actuality not much going on in terms of dynamics with tweeters. Mid range , yes I agree that's where drivers like this miss the dynamic range/fortitude of a good cone driven mid range. Cones are inherently better at impulse response. However they are lot more mass and do not have the horizontal dispersion emims (in this example) have. Not even by a long shot . That's why it's called a "point source" it sounds boxy compared to emims. A prime example of that would be magnepans (albeit those are dipole and at 6ft virtually line source) aside from better soundfield capabilities. They don't suffer on the vertical axis like cones do , due to a thing called "dipole radiaton pattern" It results in no floor or ceiling bounce what cones most certainly suffer from. It's a trade off, I have plenty of infinity speakers including the rs1b (14 emims) cousin of the irs v. There is nothing that will sway me away from my main speakers (magnepan Tympani I) with subs . In terms of quality, sound field capabilities and instrumental seperation. No cone I have (and I have many ) does what that speaker is able to do. Not even my rs1..
You can keep your eye on eBay for some Soviet Union speakers that utilize 25 watt ribbon tweeter and 75 watt honey comb woofer with passive radiator. Those were made in 80’s and do not cost an arm and leg. Hard to find, but they do exist in restored condition. The name : “ Elektronika 35AC-130” or “ Estonia 35AC-130.
the sound of amt has changed my enjoyment of music. i have always hated harsh highs😉, so i now have the amt bookshelves from parts-express sitting on the matching "towers" i disconnected the reg tweeter on the "towers" because they are harsh to my ears. i got both sets for under $100😁 now my highs, mids and upper bass(60hz+) sound fantastic. now to work on my bass with lots of homework given to me by Mr. Brunhaver himself ☺️
Absolutely agree. I have not heard every high end speaker that’s been made but the only type of speaker that I have heard that sounds better than Ribbons (I have listened to the IRS V’s more than once and I love them) would be the MBL 101 X-Tremes which are Omni directional and can change the listener’s life after just one audition. Just staggering!
After I got my hands on some Fountek NEOCD3.5H for less than 50$ about 8 years ago, I can never go back to plain old dome or fancier ring tweeters. The only drawback is the extremely high SPL and low power handling, which does require some tuning to get it down to the other driver levels. The benefit is that you will never blow a ribbon tweeter before you blow your eardrums!
After your video I order 2 ribbon tweeter and god they sound amazing! my speaker now sound on another level. but I also add a midrange to make sure I cover all the frequencies
Ribbon tweeters make recorded vocals and strings sound as if they're real during playback and they are my absolute favorite, but they are not too easy to drive, hence their rarity in use in "budget" loudspeakers in the under 500$ price range.
The Adam Audio speakers mentioned in the question use a variation of the Heil Air Motion Transformer design which are NOT the same as the ribbon drivers used in the Infinity IRS speakers. Many speaker manufacturers today use these AMT tweeters (Golden Ear, Elac, Emotiva etc) which sound very good to me. I was blown away the first time I heard the Heil AMT's in the early 80's.
None of them are true ribbon drivers they are a variant of a true ribbon. True ribbons are basically a very thin strip of foil . Suspended between magnets and tensioned .. They have minimal mass, downside they are fragile even a slam of a door can break them (see magnepan mgIII, 2.5, and the Tympani IV) those have true ribbon tweeters in their panels . Carver and apogee used them too with the caveat fragile The emit and emims (voicecoil laid out on the diaphragm) it's a magneplanar drivers , the are not true ribbon drivers, neither is the heil. The folded ribbon actually caused sometimes issues. There are guys out that that added a dab of silicone to them to tune them in ..
The question is actually about the new AMT tweeter design (which so many people are falling in love with) and not the classic Planar Ribbon tweeter (as in the Infinity IRS V). So despite an AMT tweeter being a ribbon of sort, it really isn't and instead it is a 'pleated' Heil Air Motion Transformer which moves... or rather squeezes the air on a horizontal plane. If done right, it can be glorious... and frankly overall better than many older technologies. So all of the Adam, Elac, Goldenear, and more commented about in the comment's section are all AMT designs and not Planar Ribbons as in the Infinity IRS V :)
@@bilguana11 I've been thinking about using the Mundorf AMT25CM1.1-R AMT problem is the recommend crossover is 2nd order @ 2K vs. a comparable priced Raal "Original 140-15D" Ribbon recommended crossover 4th order @ 1.6K However I can't get past how physically delicate the Raal ribbon element is and the level of care that must be exercised not to dislocate the thing. For that reason, I will likely go with the Mundorf AMT when I can find a suitable 90dB - 92dB 8Ω midbass driver to pair it with, that's where the Raal 140-15D" ribbon 1.6K crossover point wins out, dang delicate fiddle factor! Also, in looking at both of the manufactures' supplied transfer functions, the Mundorf AMT appears to be much flatter across its usable bandwidth.
@@mpix8302 I am very happy with the ELAC VELA 407s. They are a completely and properly designed loudspeaker (crossovers, drivers, cabinets, etc.) with amazing sound. You are just guessing with DIY and many things can go wrong even it it looks right on paper/computer program. Klaus Heinz also consulted for ELAC when they started with AMTs.
Thanks Paul, I'm as well a big fan of ribbon tweeters. I am a musician and have worked in many studios. There are many nearfields and farfields today with air motion transformers drivers but strange enough they call them ribbons. They are not bad but the real ribbons are imho much much better. For instance I own the m57 farfields from a Dutch company called Stage accompany which have real ribbons, first developed back in time by Philips and further developed by Stage Accompany. I must say these are the best farfields I have ever experienced.Even Prince used these Ribbon speakers in his Paisley park studios but most people never heard about them. In my opinion they are way better than Adam farfields.
I had a pair of ESS Heil AMT (ribbon tweeter) back in the early 1970s and I thought they exhibited wonderful clarity especially on female or male vocals, but really very enjoyable with all genres. ESS still makes the updated Limited Edition. Oskar Heil technology has been around for 50 years. Why more companies don't use ribbons? Are they being rediscovered? As Paul says ----Ribbons are the way to go!
I had the Original Heil AMT too. I was amazed at Heil Airmotion Transformer. ( PS. Bass was only ok with a ported 10 inch driver). I’m amazed how many speakers manufactures (Emotiva being one) are using that technology 50 years later!
@@johnruppert5630 Do you think PS Audio can improve the design of the original AMT? Has progress been made with different metals? I wish Paul would elaborate on the PS Audio design for their new speakers. I agree the original ESS speaker had only a 10 inch driver was okay. The newer model now features a 12 inch bass/midrange driver.
@@gerritgovaerts8443 heils are not ribbon tweeters but.... AMT'S air motion transoformer that is not only the name of the heils but also the name of the type.
Yes yes yes. I owned a pair of AMTib back in the 80's, lost them in a divorce. Best speakers I ever owned. Lafayette Electronics also used to manufacture a Criterion series that used Heils as well. Great sounding speakers if you had a lesser budget.
Ribbon tweeters are great. I used to own a pair of Dali Rubicon with both ribbon and dome tweeter, but I have since chosen carbon fiber domes which I found better. I can not bear the sound from metal or aluminium dome tweeters.
That plant ha ha love it. Thank you for the wonderful video. I have just recently been looking to upgrade my krk mk1 8" monitors for something more hardy but prices are just too high for Funktion one or bose. I have decided to make my own enclosures and hand pick speakers for them. This has utterly consumed me, I am possessed and can't get enough of enclosure designs.
Audio companies are quite conservative using dynamic drivers; and it's a bit sad when better solutions exist such as ribbon tweeters. My favorite headphones are either electrostatics or planar.
I imagine the downside of the additional dynamic and clarity is that with lower quality material you will notice more imperfections in the sound, thus making it less mainstream-compatible. Or you get problems with harshness when listening to relatively flat or mid-high dominant music.
@@formentorvz5 Yes indeed, more revealing transducers need music of higher quality. Especially my Stax SR-009 electrostatics are a good example of this issue.
@@ThinkingBetter These are very expensive headphones. People who buy them probably wont use Spotify, Amazon Music or even worse, RU-vid as a source. So far im very happy with dome tweeters, however ribbons look more special in my opinion. Never did a direct comparison tho.
@@formentorvz5 I use them with Amazon HD Music streaming FLAC uncompressed from CD quality tracks to 192kHz 24 bits. I bought my first Stax headphones when I was in high school back in the 80s and they are still leaders in the category. I also have some Hifiman Sundara that I enjoy using in my office. If someone take those, it will be less of a crisis. The Sundara actually sounds better in the bass.
currently KEFs ref5 and Genelec have the most impresive measurements, they are coaxial but they are still dome.. or kind of doom? My headphones are planar :)
Well it would seem to me and im a big fan of ribbon tweeters. My older brother owns a set of the large format amazing loud speakers from Bob Carvers eairly days they absolutely blow you away for sound qulity but its very directional you have to be in the sweet spot. Like a pair of Martin Logan you cant walk around the room there is one listening spot and if your not in it you dont get the full effect. Where as dome tweeters disperse the sound at a wider angle and play lower into midbass range Both have there own charstucs that make them ideal for use, B&Ws dimond tweeters now on the 800s sound amazingly good by the way i hanvt heard the newer Sunfire speakers made by whats now Bob Carvers company But they are no amazing loud speaker size either. Then you have Magna Pan still making speakers not quite a ribbon speaker but similar principles and Martian Logan similarly Personally I'd love some good ribbon tweeters but id blend it in with my soft dome tweeters, if anyone says metal dome and there are a few good ones but far and few I think ribbons are the way to go with soft dome being second in line. Horns cant stand them. Infinity made some really nice Beta line soft dome tweeters for car audio for a wile. It all depends on room size or type of listening environment I used a pair of Polk audio marine grade 6x9s in a dodge truck on an amp that were absolutely incredible sounding. Yes in a truck. Location size of space and rms output all play into a speakers sound qulity. You put a tiny speaker into a large room with little power its not going to sound good, thats why I'm not a fan of bose speakers its more a marketing gimmick. And no speakers sound good with a flat rta line. Becuse we don't hear a flat rate line. In fact speaker sound are different to every ear so what I like may sound like shit to you. But on most systems ive installed if I thought it sounded good I usually got the same feedback from the person who paid for it. I must hear somthing that appeals to most people's ears capabilities Becuse thats all it is your ears capabilities to hear sounds and the speakers ability to deliver the sounds your ears can pick up. Becuse ive lived around live music from a band growing up I know what live music sounds like and how a speakers should reproduce it. And get it as close to reality as it was intended by the people producing it. No one hears perfect hearing over the age of 20 and as we grow older our ears loose the ability to hear sounds because of age and outside influences. What I could hear at age 10 and what I can hear at age 60 are 2 tottaly different things. Every speaker has its limits and every reciver has its limits also media was recorded different from each disk, lp, mp3, flac or whatever format your using. Becuse each recording studio uses different techniques to record it and has different ideas and preferences. Certain speakers cant reproduce the sound as it was made originally. Learing how to use your system and get the best preformece from it is in your hands using your ears to help keep you from clipping the reciver isn't anything I can do for you you have to learn what clipping is and what it sounds like some people don't know what distortion is.
Adam monitors are very good value for money. I have T7V monitors myself, and they are quite good for their price. But the B&W 600 series don't have the most resolving tweeter. I had the B&W 683 earlier, and they were not very good resolution on them. I have now Dynaudio Evoke 50 with a soft dome tweeter, and that has much more resolution than my Adam T7V monitors, even if they are not ribbon tweeters. But the Dynaudio speakers I have is in another class than the Adam monitors I have.
I love ribbons but raw drivers are hard to find now. Parts express had some large format ribbons a few years ago that were responsible in price. They looked more like the tweeter aray on Bob carvers amazing loudspeakers , now called Sunfire but the sunfires only come with 1 6" ribbon tweeter. B&W DIMOND 800s sound amazing clear clean and tight. This from someone with an old pair of b&w dm4's.
i was under the impression that planar was the way to go. like the ones from Bohlender Graebener. but you could say that planar and ribbon is closely related, sometimes i heard people calling them both ribbons.
@@joppepeelen how's it going joppe.! It makes my toes curl too, it's not a true ribbon the irs v it's planar. It's a variant of a true ribbon . True ribbons are stupid simple in design and super hard to drive with. Either a resistor or transformer to deal with its low impedance. True ribbons by my knowledge do not have a voice coil bonded to mylar. But is a strip or thin foil, tensioned between magnets. I do prefer quasi ribbon (it's still a variant of ribbon technology no matter how you spin it) Easier to intergrate, less fragile and doesn't need transformers to get a decent impedance. At cost of sensitivity, but a decent amp can run it just fine. I saw your projects on here and Facebook ...you do some incredible work my friend
@@MichelLinschoten I know, I have redone all mine (12 of them) with Bob's. Still would like to know where Paul got his from being he re-did the IRS V's before Bob's came out.
Think of a laser pointer ..that's beaming high frequencies are very positional pending (the more narrow dispersion the more you need to adjust the speakers to get that sweet spot and it's often small) . As to there low end isn't .
The Infinity drivers shown are planar magnetics, not ribbons. Nor are Heil AMT drivers ribbons, they are also planar magnetics though closer in design to a true ribbon than most planar magnetics.
Those are not ribbon tweeters , True ribbon tweeters are suspended between magnets. Not the case with the emit and emims .. they are magneplanar drivers, with their voice coils on the diaphragms and magnets behind and on front of the face plate (has flat magnets) push pull. Ribbons are less mass and way more fragile and more responsive than what's in your irs v. Repaired plenty of emits and emims (they are available now at American vintage audio , bob douglas) replacement diaphragms
Planars have low sensitivity, that's it they should not oppose a difficult load to amplifiers (impedance wise) if so ..you need to add more voice coil (tracks) to get the impedance correct
I'm a DIY kind o guy and on last project, i ''tried'' some Mundorf AMT (Air Motion Transformer) tweeters. I originally wanted some RAAL ribbons. I regret the AMT's, they don't live up to my Dr. Heil (ESS) expectations i guess :( .
I had some ribbontweeters on some shitty philips speakers hate the sound they make and since then assumed it was because of the ribbon tweaters but that is porbably not the case
These type tweeters are limited in dynamic range, have poor low frequency response, tend to beam when used in larger configurations, higher unit to unit variance and can more easily be damaged - all compared to domes. So although they sound good at HF they are not without drawbacks hence they aren’t used that much.
Tweeters don't need low fr , the word already states what their intend is "TWEETER" Also they don't beam on the horizontal plane, they are limited on the vertical axis. Which results in minimal floor, ceiling bounce. Which is a part of their inherent quality . The reason why they are not being used , it's cost and crossover requirements. The irs and most speaker people tote here have in actually not true ribbon tweeters. True ribbons (carver, apogee) require transformers to operate due to extremely low impedance. Example given, apogee mid range ribbons spec at about 0.34ohm . No amp can run that without transformers. True ribbons also are not what emims and emits are. They are magneplanar drivers , having the voice coil laid out on the diaphragm. Paul never fails to screw up a informational video True ribbon is literally a strip of foil at desired microns. Floating (under tension) between magnets (north and south ) they are fragile and stupid hard to integrate properly. It's where emims and emits are a good bit easier to integrate. Magnepans quasi ribbon takes away all the downsides of the true ribbon . However their drivers (relative to its true ribbon brothers ) are more mass due to the wires (coil) being bonded to the mylar. Still far superior to domes, I got the older cousin of the irs v the rs1 b (14 emims) It has nothing on the magnepan Tympani I on my main system. I will never go back to a cone/dome point source speaker.
I've had Adam a7x and a8x... Gotta say. I hate ribbon tweeters. Am open to having my mind changed tho. The best tweeters to my ears are some old vintage mylar celestion tweeters. People say mylar tweeters aren't great but done right they make the most realistic high frequency sounds
Hey ..... Sir Paul Who & What Nationality Invented World's First Real Ribbon Tweeter Because I Can't Trust On The Web Based Information. Thank You Sir & Thank PS Audio.
I don't want tweeters that blow me away. Now that it's spring, it's windy enough already. Not to mention those amplifiers that blow others out of the water... I prefer my amplifiers to be dry instead.
@Lloyd Stout i think if you look at the price of a speaker the tweeter is perhaps the cheapest component (maybe not Beryllium). Look at overhead (profit/shipping/warranty etc) to the cabinet to the bass driver to the crossover, I'd imagine the tweeter itself comes up pretty much last. Many/most manufacturers use the identical tweeters in a whole line of speakers from their smallest bookshelves to their largest multi woofer floorstanders that sell at maybe ten times the price. $5 tweeter in a $100 speaker? OK. $5 tweeter in a $1,000 speaker? Ouch.
@@Bassotronics Based on very little experience, the size matters. Take the Emotiva AirMotiv B1+ which is highly praised, versus a Dayton audio Air. Let's say I will go for the Emotiva anyday.
Well.. Can't be THAT more expencive to use ribbons... Some really cheap speakers from Sweden etc had ribbons😋 And some put ALOT more money in domes than it costs for a good ribbon. I actually seen them more used in cheaper speakers than more expencive ones🤔 So it can't be the price...🤷♂️
Im sorry but,,,, THESE ARE NOT RIBBONS. and 1000hz for a planar magnetic.. since thats what they are . it is not LOW. and not at all low if you use 14 or more...
Thanks for making this clarification. That is what I thought. I was thinking of your channel as I watched this, and then there you were as if answering my question. :)
I don't think ribbon tweeters alone is the reason why your Adam studio monitors sounds so great. Studio monitors with dome tweeters sounds equally good or better. Genelec uses metal dome tweeters.
2:00 Paul I enjoy your videos but your nomenclature leaves something to be desired. Sorry, a pet peeve of mine. Your IRS V's do not use ribbon mids and tweeters, they are planar magnetic...A linear voice coil etched onto a film substrate glued on all 4 sides to a frame with magnets on the front and back in the case of push pull, or just the back in the case of single ended. Nothing wrong with planar magnetic, it has its applications just like ribbons. You're not alone, the industry equates ribbons with superior technology and uses the term widely as a marketing game. i.e...Magnepan with it's "Quasi Ribbon" Nope, planar tweeter. It may seem like I am nit picking but would you call an OHV engine an OHC engine ? A ribbon driver is a linear conductive element which can be pure foil or foil conductors applied to a film substrate suspended loosely at its ends between magnets on either side...The 2 driver types have different magnetic fields and different driver resonance characteristics. Just my 2 cents.
And yet ... most high-end speakers on sale right now don't use em. The crossover point is right in the vocal range. Focal, KEF, B&W and even Martin Logan put an giant red pen strike through this "bippy" story.
I think ribbons are hard to get right. I know you're a fan, and I think they can sound great. But I still constantly find myself drawn to soft dome tweeters.
Very interesting! Fickle Finger of Fate Award. One ringy dingy, two ringy dingy.... Say goodnight, Dick....Goodnight, Dick! Ya, I'm an old guy, too! Oh ya, I like ribbon tweeters as well!
