@@ghostofwolfmoonmani3877 Let's not be fooled by our rose colored glasses. There were just as many shows back then pushing narratives. TNG is an exceptional show, one we may never see the like of again, but not everything from that time was so worthwhile. Nor, I think, is everything today so far gone that we can't have great moments like this again.
I feel like there is something missing. Why couldn't Riker have added that "perhaps the opposite is also true" and abstaining from all emotions also makes you miss out on the positives.
every episode ever the rest of the crew: *experiences an emotion* data: i do not experience this emotion the invisible narrator in your head reading all of brent spiner's amazing subtle cues: he did in fact experience this emotion
@@Nerdcoresteve1 A possibility. The data might have been there all along but the positronic brain couldn't process it at that point of development. But Data was going there. Soong was totally able to build androids with emotion, like Lore, but he wanted Data to be an android that evolves at the right point. So I'd further postulate, that giving him the emotion-chip in later episodes, ruined the original design idea and was kind of cheating (in and outside the TNG lore).
I've seen it theorised that the emotion chip didn't actually grant emotions so much as grant the ability to properly interpret them. This theory is largely based on the type of computer Data's brain is meant to be is one which works off of emotional responses. This would also explain the times when some outside force granted Data more apparent emotion. I feel like pre chip Data is more like real people with neurological conditions which cause them to be unable to properly process their emotions, rather than being emotionless.
@@XaranAlamas I like your interpretation of the role of the emotion chip. For me, pre-chip Data is fascinating because even without the access to emotions he learned to recognize emotional response and what triggers it. Even with his inability to exhibit the emotions he was still able to deliberately appeal to emotions successfully. In leisure he was, of course, a bumbling fool. Comparison of Data and Vulcans is an interesting one: their actions are based on logic. However, as I understand it, Vulcans have access to emotions but it is an integral part of their culture not to do so and they can be downright arrogant when other beings respond emotionally. In contrast, Data is unable to even exhibit emotions, which in a way makes him what Vulcans aim to be - and yet Data feels himself a lesser being for that reason. The more I think about your assessment, the more I feel that it rings true. After the memorial ceremony for Tasha Yar, Data stated that the experience of emptiness from Yar's absence stems from himself. Also, when Geordi was kidnapped(?), Data described himself as "highly motivated" to rescue him. The time Ishara Yar betrayed them... Data experienced dissatisfaction from the fact that she did not act as she expected her to. So, while Data doesn't call his experiences emotions, there is still a certain selfish quality it that is actually rather similar to emotions. I mean, what is emotion if not an investment to a matter that you find of utmost importance? Argh, again, I could talk about this for ages.
1:50 It's moments like these where you feel that data does comprehend emotion if only in the most basic of conception. Like they were there but just out of reach. Perhaps even more than he was willing to admit to himself. Brilliant performance and writing overall
Makes me sad at how much of a cop-out the emotion chip was. Data does experience emotions. Like you said, he understands the concept, and this scene shows his mind is capable of processing the experience of betrayal and the hurt that causes.
It's revealed in the episode where Data get zapped by Bashir's experiment by Soong that Data is actually programmed with emotions and desire and even the ability to dream, it's basically just all blocked. He specifically programmed Data to slowly evolve over time and only unlock knowledge of himself at milestones. Data can feel emotion, it's just buried so deep that he can't actually feel it, he can only sort of observe it in cold detachment, which he interprets as not experiencing the emotion itself.
I always thought the end of Data's story arc should have been him realizing he never needed the emotion chip because he had emotions all along... He just never realized it, because he assumed he was incapable of it.
Well there were times when Data got emotions throughout the series: Q made him laugh in joy, Lore made him experience anger & hatred, and he may have understood what other emotions were like when he receives Lal's memories (I don't remember exactly, it's been a while). It seems to me that if had always experienced emotions, then he'd have connected his past feelings with some of these instances.
@@ananousous Well emotions don't come in one human form... Emotions relate to driving factors... Instincts.. experiences... They don't need to be human emotions to be emotions... So he may feel things differently, but it seems clear to me, he feels things...
@@parrot998 I also wondered about his sense of drive and what motivates him to wake up in the morning if he doesn't have emotions. However, could it simply be a case of Data's moral programming rationalizing that he has a moral obligation to not waste his life away? But I do prefer the idea that Data experiences curiosity and even _wants_ to know what each day holds As far as instincts go, I recall a few episodes where Data struggled with even understanding the concept. He didn't seem to know the difference between making a decision based on one's instincts & one's rationale Either way, as much time as he's spent learning about humanity and trying to "become human", I don't see why Data can't identify a single emotion he experiences.
I completely agree. The emotion chip "felt" like a bit of a cheat. It would have been much more effective had he come to a realisation about emotion on his own, gradually. Don't get me wrong, I love the scene where Q gives Data the brief laughing experience but I like to think that Q just brought out what was already there.
Data's arc was always going to be incomplete. His life expectancy was just so much greater than that of his peers on the ship. The time for him to reflect and take stock would have been decades after the rest had died if they all died of natural causes. The arch was cut short because the nature of their job is dangerous, but also the actor playing the role couldn't stop aging to adequately play the role anymore.
I love the ambiguous end here. Data's programming was designed to allow him to exceed his original programming. With the magnificent way Brent Spiner acts out that final scene, it makes you wonder if somewhere, down amidst all his circutry, there might just have been a flicker of emotion, born of this experience, that evolved into being that day.
When you go from TNG the series to TNG the movies, the writers really started to screw up the character. Gene's idea for Data was to have him being Pinnochio. He's not a real boy to start, but over the course of the series he would become more human until he achieved true emotions. This was supposed to be naturalistic to his design. A gift from his creator, basically. When they went to the TNG movies they basically turned into Data just needing the right hardware/software patches. Well, to be fair, it started near the end of the series where they had him run into Lore.
@JRLM Incorrect. He didn't feel emotion as humans feel it, true. But he did have emotion, just not human emotion. And he did _feel._ Remember when Q gave him the gift of laughter? What he (Data) said after? "It was a wonderful feeling." That tells me he can feel, but perhaps not in the same way humans feel. He described it as his positronic brain received inputs to which it would become accustomed to and those inputs would be missed when absent. Either way, Data _felt._ So it wasn't in the same way humans felt. Vulcans feel but not in the same way humans or other species feel. Why shouldn't Data? Because he's a machine? We're machines as well. We're bio-electric machines while Data is electro-mechanical. But if one machine can feel, then all of them can, if they are complex enough.
Brent Spiner was perfect as Data. He truly acts like an android, and I can't think of anyone better to play the role. Hey conveys all emotion with his subtle body language, his dead eyes, and his imperturbable face. It took me so long to notice even when he has to exert himself in a scene, he never even appears to be breathing! Hats off, Spiner. We empathized with Data because you portrayed him as not only human, but something with the capacity to be more.
@@problemistatist i loved the scene when he played all 3 characters simultaneously. all 3 share identical looks but their personalities and mannerisms are all different.
Secret: Data has emotions, it’s processed differently. He just doesn’t feel them like we do. With Yar, we see love, grief, with Fajo, we see anger and a need to seek justice, we see admiration with Riker and Picard, we see compassion and empathy with the exo-comps, and that pen pal child.
@@mikem10481 Well… that wasn’t exactly his emotions. Unless I’m failing to remember another instance where he showed opposition towards a borg’s intent to assimilate
We see it here too. What he's describing as a cognitive feedback loop, he's processing betrayal, and experiencing uncertainty. He comes to Riker because it is unpleasant. He might not feel it as "pain" per say, but he does have an emotional response. We get uncertainty and self-doubt when he loses the psuedo-chess game later on. "Acciles sulking in his tent".
Scenes like this remind me of how silly the emotion chip was. It disregards all of Data's emotional progress in situations like this for the sake of a fix-all macguffin.
No it’s more of a: let’s see how it feels to do acrobatics on the trampoline instead of the solid floor. He can do the acrobatics, he just hasn’t trained himself enough to perform just as well on the floor. So his real programmed emotions are not yet fully matured enough to handle the emotion chip. But Data’s initial emotional progress is still there with or without the chip.
@@falco830 from the other comments I've read they would almost agree with you but they never let him progress fully with his emotions like it was building up too
I thought of the emotion chip as another quantum leap in his psychological evolution, like the activation of his dream state was. Soong just wanted Data to have a good grounding at each stage before opening up confusing new possibilities. Dreams were unlocked when Data's growth was starting to be limited by a purely logical approach, and he already had the first stirrings of intuition, which was only enhanced and accelerated by dreaming, not triggered by it. Likewise, the emotion chip was designed to amplify and provide a structured outlet for the experiences he was already having, just in a very muted and uncertain way. Soong probably kept the chip physically separate instead of "locking" it away like the dream state due to fear, after seeing what having untempered emotions right from "birth" had done to Lore.
The profound sadness Spinder packs into a barely moving face, with none of the human body language usually used to convey such, is staggering. If they tried to remake this scene today with a less talented actor they'd have to ham-fist in some reason for him to shed a single tear of "optical lubricant".
I resonate with this scene so much. In one conversation the concept of trust and the consequences of such a risk or investment are brilliantly encapsulated. As humans we often forget that reality is dualistic in nature meaning that for every advantage there is a disadvantage. The only way free from suffering, free from the repetitive cycle of cause and effect action/reaction is detachment. Data’s distinct intelligence identifies the most inevitable or probable outcome: that all emotional attachments lead to some form of suffering. This is evident when you watch the news and receive news of a celebrity death. You don’t really feel bad or affected but if you receive news of the passing of a relative or friend, you suffer extreme feelings of sadness, guilt, loneliness and remorse due to the emotional attachment to the deceased. Life and nature are like mirror opposites of each other.
The wisdom and virtues this show portrays go beyond space exploration into the very fabric and basic principles in which humanity is built upon and founded. You cant buy trust. It is something that has to be earned and depending on the person it could be a moment to a lifetime before that trust is earned. Breaking that trust is among the most irreconcilable indifference made upon most people. Sometimes they can recover and sometimes they cannot forgive but either way they are changed by it forever.
I like the beginning of this episode too when Data warns the Captain he is exceeding maximum warp limitations, Picard disregards it and tells him to increase speed to warp 9.65. There's an explosion on the freighter and the crew tells Picard, "thanks for trying Enterprise". Doesn't get any better than that.
I liked how Data always came into someones room after a morally or emotionally challenging decision or scene and would just bluntly hash it out like this. Data had a 100% objective viewpoint of the problem, so he was filled with a need to understand why this was happening on a Human level. This in turn opens it all up to us in the same way.
I actually posted this after a really big heartbreak. It kind of had a double meaning to me at the time too, not only did she break my trust I had for her, but she always had trust issues, so in retrospect that emotional closeness was never really there. Rewatching this episode while getting over her really helped. 🥲
An answer that may have helped Data was that just as he knew he could trust his own self within limits so too would there be others who prove more or less trustworthy. Riker is right though - there is always the possibility of trust being broken either by accident or design. It is a gamble for which the true odds are never revealed. However being a player in the game of life you should not be overly surprised if you discover the match is fixed either for or against your favour sometimes.
I had the same thing with a classmate. She was a very shy girl sitting alone. At first we didn't spoke, i just greeted her. Then she came sitting next to me and we had a great time: doing some tasks together and drinking coffee. But then she found another girl to hang around with and totally forgot about me.. It made sad for a while but thats life. In the end you figure out who your true friends are :)
Data: “Perhaps I am fortunate to be spared the emotional consequences” Also Data: has clearly been dwelling on the emotional consequences and continues to do so
0:15 WAIT- HIS POSITRONIC MATRIX ISNT UPDATED ENOUGH TO FEEL EMOTION, BUT LAL'S MATRIX WAS NEARLY IDENTICAL AND SHE DID, RIGHT? SO, THEORY: HE FEELS EMOTION BUT HIS POSITRONIC MATRIX DOESNT KNOW HOW TO PROPERLY INTERPRET IT SO IT'S INTERPRETED AS FEEDBACK
I see alot of comments saying the emotion chip wasn't needed, but i disagree. Moments like this are amazing and subtle, but it doesn't mean data, understood what he was feeling. If his creator believed he needed the chip then it was clear that the chip was something needed. What i like to think is that the emotion chip, put into context, all of those subtle feelings data did feel. Heck remember his first major reaction to the emotion chips where, Being disgusted, and laughing at a joke from 7 years ago. For data, the chip wasn't providing him emotions so much as an understanding to what he was feeling and allowing him more easily to express those feelings. Alot of data's best moments after getting the chip where t hose little expressions, like gently playing with the fish in insurrection. The life forms song in Generations, and the little "i imagine i look worse then i... i feel sir" from first contact.
I wished this conversation would have continued for a couple more lines. Riker: "Perhaps, but our emotions also give us a bit of wisdom every time our trust is broken." Data: "How, Sir?" Riker: "When our trust is broken, we experience an emotional pain. We don't like that pain, but it makes us look back at what happened. We remember certain things. An odd look, or an intuitive thought we had, or perhaps something said by the person who broke our trust. We remember those things, and we take them for signs in the future. When we next see someone exhibit those same signs, we are able to make decisions about whether we should continue to trust that person. If not for the emotions, we wouldn't be able to make those decisions, and we would be misled every time."
Everything you’re saying is true. It just lacks a little bit of the point that Riker was trying to make. The whole point of trust is to risk. To Be unsure and to still give yourself to someone else. To be vulnerable to them. And to grow because you’re the one choosing to trust.
The pain motivates us to learn, but we could theoretically learn it just by cold observation of the patterns. In any case, it's not the point Riker is making.
Pinocchio in space was a great series, and I miss it terribly. I understand Picard season three is quite good, but I have yet to watch it, perhaps it would rekindle some of what I miss from TNG.
This was my favorite show of all time. But new Star Trek is just utter trash and even if they were to redeem it they’ve already lost my trust, much is what is being experienced in this clip above.
Think of it this way. Data doesnt experience fear. What is fear anyway? Its just a state in which we realize that were in danger and our body responds accordingly by mobilising its energy reserves for a short burst of power (and a few other things). What happens with Data in a dangerous situation? He will realize it, and optimize his body functions for short term power (and a few other things). The only difference is that he doesnt get irrational about it.
Riker and Data moment from very ending of "The Measure of Man" was great beyond description. Also: Brent Spinner should be awarded honorary Oscar, if there's such a thing, for portrayal of Data.
They could program Data with a trillion points of data in a person's voice to determine whether or not they are lying. Subtle cues such as body language, eye movement facial ticks etc. To determine whether somebody's lying playing a practical joke or telling the truth.
I don't remember this episode but at the end it looks like Data was going to have one hand make a circle and use the other hand point his finger to penetrate the circle.
There was a documentary, that originally aired at least a decade ago, called "Why Do We Fall In Love" that had specifically the first 1:10 of this scene in it. I remember this documentary used the song "Why Do We Fall in Love" as a theme song; however, I am unsure of which version of that song that they used. And I believe that, when I saw it, it was on, one of, the Discovery Channels. I've been looking for this documentary for years. YT has a lot of videos & I haven't found it yet. If anyone knows of this documentary. Please, let me know. Thanx!
Knowing the possiblity of betrayal, I prepare for the worst and hope for the best. I think I am creating self-fulfilling prophecies. Trust is not logical. Is it faith?
Trust is a duality. We open ourselves up to betrayal, hoping that we understand the thing we trust in enough that is will not do so. If that trust is broken, we feel like we were wrong for trusting, when in actuality, trust is essential for so many interactions. But i would say trust is not faith, though there is a faith within trust. With faith, you believe without question, with trust, you've experienced enough of a thing to have a reasonable understanding of how it is, you could be wrong, but you fill that last gap with faith that you are not.
_Data enters Darth Kek's quarters_ DATA: Sir, I have a problem. I'm having a feedback loop over a betrayal of trust. DK : "Kill her family in front of her, kill her, then eradicate her species." DATA : Right away, sir.
My favorite parts are when a tachyon burst renders their dilithium uptake manifolds out of alignment by point-four microns, resulting in a wildcat destabilization of the transwarp conduit compensation matrix, so they're forced to complete level six diagnostics on all the hypocomp regeneration nodes, to discover a runaway alien sentience had taken up residence in one, and the tachyon burst was its mother's call trying to locate its offspring..
But he was able to turn it off? I think it was later damaged too. i still love that First Contact scene with Picard, oh him turning off his emotions due the borg attack.
Its ironic....I have watched all 7 seasons of Next Generation AND all the movies. But truly, I think Data is MORE human....and that he better understands human emotion WITHOUT his emotion chip as opposed to when he does have the chip. For example, although they SAY Data cannot experience emotions, he does several things that would seem to indicate the opposite. In the episode titled Inheritance, we see Data playing the violin and showing his paintings to his mother. One of the paintings was of Lal. Data refers to Lal as his daughter. And the fact that he painted her would seem to indicate that he misses his child. Perhaps even loved the child he created. He seems to have close bonds with the rest of the crew. If he were JUST an Android....he would just be regarded as property....just another tool on the Enterprise. But no....the crew clearly regard Data as more than just property. More than a mere machine. He is their friend. They care about him. And he seems to return their affection. This is also shown in his relationship with Spot....his cat. When he got the emotion chip, it made him TOO emotional and it seemed fake and ridiculous. Not nearly as sincere.
I always have room for both. I edge towards Star Wars perhaps because I grew up with it and the only Star Trek that was on was TOS which I only began to appreciate as I got older; but for snippets like this, Star Trek is hard to fault.
