Ryan, Fantastic videos! I have watched them all now and learnt a lot. I have not shot for 12 years. Thank god I kept my re-loading gear and my gun I am now dealing with seating depth issues of my Savage 112 .308, I have .133" of float between my sized 2.8" C.O.L and my rifling. I have just started seating my 175GR Sierra's at 2.915" C.O.L Many things I have learn through your videos enabled me to get much smaller groups than I ever thought possible, so thanks again and enjoy the holiday season!
Great videos! I just watched them all back to back! Thanks for taking the time to show us all what you have learned. I especially like the scientific way in which you analize every aspect of your shooting. Good luck to you in your future endeavors!
Mate, one of the best produced and analyzed series' on youtube! Thanks very much for doing these videos. Right up there with tnoutdoors9 and hickock45! Thanks from Australia!
FYI: I totally agree that I have variables that are not controlled. But I don't have the time or energy to control all elements. I have a limited supply of bullets, cash, and barrel life and I am trying to optimize precision in a short period of time. Thank you for your scrutiny.
Ryan, what computer program are you using at the end of the video to calculate the group spread. I’ve seen other people in other videos use the same program. But I’ve never heard anyone elaborate on it. Thanks!
Great video, well explained and documented. I have just started to reload 308 and was wondering about the relationship between seating depth and accuracy. I will have to be content with a length that will still fit in my magazine of my 700, but it is still much closer to the lands than even the Hornady match loads are. Touching lands at 2.929, 2.870 is about it for my magazine to accept, will do some test loads and see how they do at the range. Thanks again for your video.
Possibly, but the perspective of the camera is off. The barrel was beside and above my head while loading. It was on that split second when I stood up that could have posed a problem. Safety engaged and finger off the trigger.
I appreciate the fact that you like them, but I only have so much time in a day. Editing these videos together takes alot of time. I probably spend 20 hours per episode just on the video editing alone, not to mention building up a media library and adding in graphics and pictures. I produce them as fast as I have free time available to continue the series. Thankyou for your interest.
I think your vidio's are a great learning tool. I have a g.a.p 308 that i put together and are still trying to make it better every time I shoot it, unfortunitly I only have out to three hundred yards to do my testing. I also just started playing with O.A.L length and found your vidio very helpfull . keep up the good work.
I am not an expert, I am still learning. Nowhere in these videos do I say that my tests prove anything. I am mearly presenting my testing and showing you the results so that you can learn from my mistakes. I also do not show all of the test criteria because this is not going into a scientific journal. I try to keep the videos simple and to the point. If I had external funding, then I would be able to take my testing more seriously. Enjoy at face value, and take what I show with a grain of salt.
Hey man. I'm an experienced shooter and came across your vids by accident actually. Anyways I just wanted to say you've made a great set of vids here for the beginner and intermediate shooter/reloader. You've done well with the explanations,then proofing your adjustments at the range. Anyways I just wanted to say great job here. Very,very informative and well done with the proof of concept at the range. If it's alright I'm going to subscribe and send guys here to watch and learn. Your vids can save me a ton of typing and for guys who need to see to get it these vids are a godsend. Tiborasaurus is the king of the long range RU-vid vids but your right up there in his class for sure. Nice work.
ANOTHER GREAT TECHNICAL VIDEO !!!! BRAVO ! I would like to add one more point : When using Berger Bullets and then changing powders the same bullet seating depth may not apply. IMR 4895 may be good with a .010 off the lands , but when switching to H 414 a .040 and Varget may be .020 off the lands may be the new depth. As Ryan points out , your barrel and our barrels ALL have different Chamber dimensions....use our info as a guide to establishing your actual numbers. Thanks. Be safe
Your graphics are second to none! Well done. I have recently "caught the bug" and am addicted to playing with OAL and accuracy. Even with a semi-auto M1A I am getting wonderful groups by playing with OAL. I'm just getting started... :-)
Exactly. Swapping one element of the load recipe could mean you need to start the whole process from scratch. This is why a chronograph is a nice tool to have. You can quickly find that muzzle velocity that the barrel likes. Every rifle is different and will have its own unique combination of comoponents that it prefers to shoot. Using other peoples load data should only be a guide line, and as always, start 10% low and work up.
Your advice should read, "Most of the timestart 10% low and work up". For some large cases and magnum powders, 10% is too low and 7-8% is safer. In fact, many load data for specific loads will show blank columns in the 8-10% range and this is why.
I try to ignore the wind drift as much as possible, I want to focus on the vertical. If I make a bad wind call it my own fault. I would like to do more testing at 1000, but its difficult to reach, 600 is nice and easy. I was going to leave neck turning for when I build a 6mmBR. Not sure when I'll get around to that. Video editing is a delicate balance between keeping enough content to make the point, but not bore the viewer with excess. Glad you like them.
Never shot a Parker. The Savage 12FTR was the origional rifle I was looking to purchase all those years ago. Availability at that time was low, so I ended up buying the R700 instead. Hand loads are the most imporant piece of the puzzle. Almost any rifle can shoot better as soon as you develope a custom hand load for it. I have taken several friends through the process and helped to make their rifles shoot MOA or better.
There are a couple guys at my club who are now using tube guns. Interesting design, but I'm not a fan of how they mount the forend. Some of them have a definate weak spot at the joint, which gets amplified when using a bipod. Very pretty but I think I still prefer the classic look.
Never mind, the software showed 100 yards. I've done these tests at 200 yards because I tend to find "more movement" / differentiation at 200 yards than 100 yards when I test for bullet seating. Not sure if that is "me" or the ballistics coefficients beginning to kick in. I use 200 yards for .204; .223 and .308 tests.
Thanks for all the video's. They are great! It really shows that you put a lot of time and energy into the recording and editing. I bought a Rem SPS tactical in .308 to try long range shooting. It re-enforces the steps that I do watch you use and test them. I also pick up more and new tricks from your video's. I have a question regarding types of rest. From a bench I have been using a loaded/pressure on the-bipod and rear sand bag. What do you think of a Caldwell's Tackdriver bag+ rear?
Ryan, I have a technical question for you, i am reloading Remington 7MM Mag using a 2 die competition set and i have done some measurements on where my bullet touches the lands and found that i am at 2.531" and a good factory round is 2.654" to the ogive. Thus saying i am not able to seat the bullet beyond 2.587" so that i can ladder test the bullet jump off the lands to find the best bullet seating depth for precise accuracy. This is far as my die with the micrometer will allow me (2.587") ?
Your right, I didn't make that very clear. I typically swap between 2 distances, 100 and 600. I would do more load testing at 1000 if it was easier to get out there. I have to do alot of off roading and side travel to make it to my 1000 yard line. While 600 is very easy to get to. The hills and valleys make for a 200 yard occlusion. 300 is when the valley comes back up and targets become visbible again.
Thank you for your well organized, professional-style video. I just bought some 80 Grain Berger VLD bullets and Redding Competition seating die with the VLD stem. Hopefully this week I'll get to the range and try some loads out and see what my rifle likes. Also, what program are you using that allowed you to measure the size of your group in inches and MOA? Thanks, Matt
Help, i am reloading Remington 7MM Mag using a 2 die competition set and i have done some measurements on where my bullet touches the lands and found that i am at 2.531" and a good factory round is 2.654" to the ogive. Thus saying i am not able to seat the bullet beyond 2.587" so that i can ladder test the bullet jump off the lands to find the best bullet seating depth for precise accuracy. This is far as my die with the micrometer will allow me (2.587")At this measurement i am really close.
I don't preload the bipod enough when shooting prone. Then, Off the bags I prefer to minimize my contact with the rifle which always sends it flying after the shot. At the end of the day, the proof is on the paper. Is there room to improve...absolutely!
Great video I just started reloading my 308 ammo and soon I'll be getting into the seating depth, I was told that if the bullet was touching the lands the barrel would blow up.. I guess not. Subscribed
That probably has more to do with caliber choice. A magnum cartridge which has the ability to be double charged is far more likely to blow up in your face....especially if you are jamming that magnum bullet into the lands. The thing to understand is that touching and jamming into the lands will increase pressure rapidly, so you MUST proceed with caution and increase loads in even smaller steps. Be safe.
Hey, thanks for you vey good and useful videos, I have wached them all!!! your efforts have all my admiration!!! I live in México and there are no reloading suplays here, but want to re make my factory rounds to be sure they are properly loaded, do you think its to much? I am about to buy a reloading press, can you tell me if youcan achive real accurate loads with a RCBS progresive press? I will appriciate your coments or recommendations!!!
Wow..your breed are scientists in there own right..great video.and even better shooting..do you think it's possible that the stainless barrels stiffness/hardness makes it more forgiving..as far as land distance.
I did not have time to read through all the comments, so this may have already been mentioned. First of all great shooting. I would like to make a suggestion though based on my experience. To obtain more accurate results I shoot one round of each load at each target the the 2nd round at each then 3rd and so on. This process removes variables like barrel temp and wind drift. Your groups will all spread over a length of time vs the first group being up to an hour or more before the last. I typically use six per seating depth and do not count the farthest shot out of the group to calculate size. Just my 2¢ Great shooting and another awesome video keep it up 👍👍👍
OTTOFLYS Thanks, I have started experimenting with the same idea, looking for consistent results as the variables changes. Trying to average it all out.
Great shooting! It's good to see a video where the person actually shoots groups as tight as they make it sound in video title. I've seen way to many videos titled shooting super tight groups and then the person shoots 3 in groups at 100 yards.
Take a Swiss file and put a small tiny V notch in your case rim set it into the rifle at 12 oclock then fire it to chamber form it, then when you reload the round and go to fire it next time hand push the round into the chamber with the notch at 12 oclock each time you fire the round its going into the chamber the same way each time and check the run out of bullet to case with a dial indicator on Vee blocks, its the only to be sure the bullet is leaving the case straight when it hits the lands. when you check the run out it will show you how well ( straight ) that seating die is pushing the bullet into the case. I had to go thru many hand seating dies to find the best one, anyone can say they make the best and call it what they want like Benchrest or match etc....good shooting.
I love your video. The improve you've made since the very first video is awesome. I just started reloading mostly because of your video, they proove that it is possible for a normal guys to become a great shooter at the range. I have an old Parker Hale .308 whis is my main rifle for which i will be reloading, and I project to buy a Savage 12FTR in .308 caliber, what do you think about these rifle?
Whats the barrel twist 1 in 10 or 1 in 12 or 1 in 8 ? All those factors and powder and projectile use all mak3s a difference including primers, noticed you only have 130 grain to 175 grain projectiles and what distances are these, think about what the F class guys and teams are preparing and then you have the right set up based on your needs but i get what your trying to achieve to see y the projectile seating forwards a little more are you going to have a more consistent spread at various distances, sure all good on test and paper but when in a comp mode it all changes due to other factors?
Hey mate, what do you find is the best distance to test things? for e.g. ladder testing and also what distance are you shooting at in this video? cheers mate!
great video, please take some tips. your getting way to excited before pulling next shot. your rushing your shots. your closing your bolt so fast, the bullet might be pushed back before its in chamber. try shooting these groups at 200 or 300 yards for clarification on which is best
When developing a load, what is the recommended order in which to attack each variable? The variables I'm focusing on are 1. Bullet (weight and manufacturer) 2. Charge 3. OAL and 4. Crimp (which will just be none, little and heavy). I figure the best way to develop a load is do them one at a time- identify the best of the first variable and with just that, start on the next. But in what order should I attack those? I figure bullet is the obvious choice to start with. First, because it determines the safe range of others and 2 b/c (other than crimp) has the fewest discrete options- 3-4 contenders I've identified. Going from there, what should I play with next... I'm thinking charge next, and follow that with either crimp then length or length then crimp?
Thats a tough one to answer. So far I have approached load development in the same order that you listed. Most don't realize that you have to start with analyzing how you want to shoot. Target/hunting/plinking/competetive. That is going to have a huge influence on component choices. Once you have the components, then I would suggest looking up recipes that others have found work well. This will give you a good starting point. As always, start low and work up.....watching for pressure signs. The big problem is that a change in one variable, will mean that you need to tweak the other variable as well. I don't think there is one single way to make it all work. Its the slow steady testing to find a good group. Best idea is to stay honest. What does the target data tell me about the changes I just made. For me, #1 is consistency. That single excellent group needs to be ignored and forgotten if you can never repeat it.
How I work a load: Start with a good bullet, good bullet weight and match to twist rate (use a stability calculator if necessary...google it), good powder (read forums such as The High Road to see what the pros have used), good brass, Turn necks, Trim precision, proper case sizing, Seating depth precision (same OAL within a small margin), Bullet run-out (the alignment of the neck, bullet and case) checked with a concentricity tool and use good dies to prevent bullet run out and control seating depth. Then work up a load. Consistency (as Ryan pointed out) is key to accurate loads so no corners and no taking for granted. At least 10 shot groups or 2 five shot groups. 20+ groups are even better at determining flukes and operator error. Also better for seeing Vertical stringing. One good test day is better than 5 where weather can have an effect on results. Just don't incorporate fatigue and you can shorten a would be lengthy testing process. After you have found an accurate load, fine tune that load using seating depth/ Bullet jump as done by Ryan in this video. Also worth mentioning is brass annealing. So much on the subject that I dare not touch it. I suggest reading however. Annealing increases brass life if done correctly but some note accuracy effects after annealing until the brass work hardens again. Neck tension will change with softer case necks. Guys with cash just use Lapua brass for example and limited number of loadings for competition and load development. In their eyes its a part of consistency in components as well as process that yield the best results. Tuning powder charge and loads are about overcoming the mechanical side of things. Barrel harmonics. Barrel oscillation occurs in every rifle barrel and load determines at witch point a bullet leaves a barrel during oscillation. Getting the bullet to leave on the bottom or top of the oscillation where minimal movement occurs is what you want in a load. So producing consistent velocities in development will yield the best test results. Powder plays a good role in this. From my experience powder that fills cases did better than ones that left a lot of room. Powder position within a case that is half full can yield very different velocities.
What program were you using at the end to analyze the group dimensions? I'm going to be working up some match loads for my new 308 this spring and that program looks pretty handy. Great video!
I love the 3 shot group comment. I don't know what gun writer it was nor when it was written but there was mention of using a backing sheet to the targets and looking at the backing sheet instead of the target. the backing sheet showed the trend and the real group. just as your 60 shot group backer
The only problem with the 60 shot group is that I was making some adjustments and point of aim shifts during the different strings. However, it shows what my rifle and I combined had for potential accuracy and precision at that moment in time.
8 years later and ppl are starting to figure out timing a bullet exit to vibrations towards the rear mite actually be something! Lol. 1800s technology finally prevails!!!! Yet ppl are still arguing over full length sizing or case volume uniformity as it’s also known. May still be just for crazy f class guys. Interesting video
Where did you find your protocal of jamming the bullet into the lands? I've always been told to keep your bullet off of the lands, close but never touching and sure as hell never pressed into them. This is to avoid pressure spikes. Is this something you know people are doing safely?
The reason to do a pressure test is to find the max safe pressure for a specific load in your rifle, to correctly conduct this test the bullet has to be in or just at the lands depending on what kind of shooting your plan to do. You can't run a pressure test 0.015" jumped then jam that max load into the rifling, this will create a load that has a much higher pressure than the max load you already found. Do the safety test at the the max length, jammed or at rifling, and never exceed that.
Hi very good series of videos very straight forward and very informative. I didn't see the question answered to What program are you using to analyze the data afterwards? I am sure a lot of people would like to know as well
Nice video. During this test, did you clean between loads? I am thinking no because you did not mention it. On another note what velocity differences did you get with the different seating depths?
I can't really comment on something I've never tried before. I built all of my bags from materials that were sitting around the house. You want something that will form to the rifle yet make a solid shooting platform. I'm sure you will get great results from that product.
i wish i had the patience to do what your doing i love the idea of long range shot but in England the only way for me to do that is to join the army or wait 4 years and £5000 to get a membership at the local gun range keep up the good work i look forward to your Vidoes
600 or 100 yards. I use those distances because they are easy to get to. Do your testing at the longest range you plan to shoot most often. The further you go out, the better idea you will have of how the group is really looking. A tight group at 100 does NOT guarantee a good group at 1000, or even 300 for that matter. However, shooting a nice group at 600, has always turned into a tight group at 100 for me.
Seems like doing your ladder test at 600 leaves too much room for the bullet to get blown around in the wind. Plus it seems you could get the same analysis just as easy at 300-400? Also, have you considered turning your brass? Awsome videos! Very well laid out. I like how you edit out all the hodge podge and get right to the point. It makes these videos very entertaining as well as educational.
Heyy! These videos were just awesome.... Will you make more of them soon? I have some ideas to talk about, if you don't mind: (2 posts) -precision and brass(expense) life with full length size vs neck only.
what powder you using with the 175s , Varget ? running similar tests now but dont get a whole lot of the bullet in the neck , maybe about 50% into neck when using 175s at freebore distance - .005 off lands
acertainshade4211 Varget yes. I find many of my loads now are compesing the powder into the case. .005 off the lands seems to be working the best for me.
What caliber? Also, use a loose seated bullet and slowly chamber it with bolt. Slowly eject and measure oal. The set seating dye to minus .005 of that oal.
No, That is just the white plastic pieces to try and make cloudy sky? That video was shot before our discussion. Funny thing, the land owner was robbed recently and the chrony was broken in the ransacking of the shed. Going to have to help invest in a new one.
The greater the distance the larger the effect the wind has on shots. Winds as small as 5MPH can change a group and throw off the test. If accuracy tests results are repetitive at 100yds it will translate at 300 or a 1,000 just the same as long as we are talking about the same bullet, and velocities remain within range of bullet stability.
I live and hunt in interior Alaska. I hunt with Barnes TTSX which like a big jump...start at 50k off the lands for these all copper bullets. My .270 winchester likes a jump of 70k for 130 gr TTSX while my .300 H & H likes a jump of 50k best for 180gr TTSX.
-how do the different brands of ammo parts influence the accuracy without changing anything except the parts(same bullet,same powder, etc) -how inaccurate is a subsonic projectile with the same parts(guessing lower load) -and every type of comparisons about brands, parts, or just common weather conditions, like you know, and count with the humidity, altitude, or not. Greetings from Europe.
While not being as technical as you, I have found that seating the bullet a few thousandths off the rifling is always the best. For 40 plus years and 50+ rifles this has always been true.
Why did you get a sticky bolt/ elevated pressure as you approached, but didn't touch the lands? I thought the longer seating depth would have increased the capacity inside the case and lowered the pressure? Is there then a pressure spike once the seating depth is so long that you jam the bullet in the lands?
