Magneto: I've got you now, Xavier. I've hit you with my ultimate combo: Ratio + Bad Ideology + Goofy lookin bald ass! Not even your precious X-Men can save you now!
I normally hate tier lists but I LOVE how you framed it in such a way that it's more about the value proposition of the character within the meta itself and not just "This character beats X". Great work Jim. Love your videos.
I remember Waaaaaay back in the day when I first saw this game as a kid I was utterly in love with Amingo. His design was just, still is to be honest, one of the most fun and interesting I'd seen in a fighting game character. You'd still be hard pressed to find another character like him. He's just fun, I've always had a soft spot for him. So of course imagine the sadness upon first learning he's garbo in this game. Seeing him in a top tier makes me beyond happy and validates the worth of this system even if it does require future tweaking and such. (And yea I know this is only one video and one set of opinions but honestly seeing that funky cactus man anywhere other than the celler is just... chefs kiss).
Jin has an X-Factor if he's the only member of your team left so he's a nasty anchor because his stray normals become monstrous and it doesn't take long to pull big damage with him.
Yea, I love the idea of this tier list, because it'd be fascinating to see a system where characters on the top and bottom get their points rebalanced for "seasons" of competitive MVC2. Sure, there might be some characters that become super high tier for their point cost for a season, but it keeps things fresh. Bumping Jugg and Ice up to 4, while dropping Dan and Servebot down to 0 would already make huge changes to many people's team comps.
I am actually surprised that Servbot doesn't cost 0. He's pretty much just as joke-level garbo as Roll. He has pretty much nothing except one single Super that's maybe DECENT.
Even if the higher point characters tend to be high on the tier list anyway. But even then, it still means that low tier characters have a chance on your team.
Would be cool to see you and Jwong make some content explaining each character and their archetypes and what kind of characters they would pair with. With the influx of players getting into MVC2 now it would be great to see more introductory info about it
Seeing the roster explored this way is an interesting expose of just how many characters are tiered as highly as they are 100% because of their synergy with the top tiers, and how once pairing with storm or magneto is no longer mathematically possible their viability bottoms out, commando being the biggest example
I'm excited to see how JWong rebalances the points in the future! One idea i had was that these points assume you pick a character's "best" or "broken" assist in many cases (e.g. TBone, CapCom) so how about make the points determined by the assist you pick? Like some characters would be the same point cost with all 3 assists, but others would cost less if you picked one of the not-broken assists. Suddenly CapCom is 1 or 2 points for people who just like the character and want them on their low-tier team and don't mine using a "bad" assist.
I can picture something like yearly "updates" where some characters can have their ratio adjusted based on tournament results or new findings But I wouldn't count on it too much
I said this when he released his video on the point system because Marvel 3 already does this and thats where Justin got the idea of the point system from
@@mehrio2640 in that case it's DEFINITELY gonna get a revision considering how popular it's become and as people begin to discover the true POWER of low-tiers!
Dhalsim can get a life lead and simply teleport on the top of the screen where many characters can't ever hit him and get a time over. And with ratios using weaker characters he could really abuse it. He has to be 4 points.
Yeah, I swear it's like everyone handles these characters in ratio as if they were playing against MSP or something, which is weird because your opponent is playing a 7 point team, too.
Just want to say serious respect to you for just examining MvC2 into detail. You have a ton of fantastic content on this nostalgic classic and it's simply amazing to see a break-down analysis of the characters like this. It takes a lot of time and energy to really figure out all the details and nuances of the characters. Good on you! Noobs will understand how to get into this game without having to read a crappy one-dimensional user guide.
Great approach to revaluate some characters that were forgotten because everybody had focused on playing with top tiers. Now you see more variety of characters and strategic gameplay that make this game a lot more fun.
I love the idea of ratio and wish there was something like this on other old games that suffer from balance problems, like KoF/CvS, those would be cool. That being said I may be wrong here but I feel this system still needs some adjustments, like raising the total points so you can make the difference between character points bigger (so it would be technically a nerf for some and a buff for others all together)
Enjoyed the MvC2 content in YT for months now from all the different creators and this made me want to learn Marvel again, hopefully we have an MvC2 tourney here where I live too, though I have to stick to the mall for now since I don't have a PC for months as well even if it's on low damage setting.
just wanted to drop a line somewhere to tell you thanks for covering this game so much. i use your videos while labbing and they are a godsend. this game has so much obscure stuff in it that trying to jump in to competitive play is really daunting/impossibly obscured. but it seems the only thing i'm interested in lately is old fighting games and mvc2 is the game i want to be able to pick up at any time and throw big combos. your channel, more than any other, has helped level up my game and i really appreciate it. well done, bro, keep them coming.
I think one thing that would be cool for the ratio format, even if it would complicate things, is to have characters cost different amounts of points depending on the assist you pick. For some characters this wouldn’t change much, all three magnetos should be worth 5 points for example. But I feel like commando with projectile assist would be a one point character and that would let people who want to play commando as a point character or experiment with his other assists use him without massively handicapping themselves. Same for other assist characters like Tron-Bon, psylocke or cyclops. Even characters like doom or sentinel (okay probably not sentinel) might be okay being worth one less point with their worst assist option.
Man i love my man dan, its my favorite SF character and i like to use him on teams for fun (Even if i am bad) but the one point is just too harsh, i know why wong did not put him on the same block as roll but i really wish he was there
Harsh, but not completely undeserved. A lot of the SF characters tend to be weakened in SVC2 because of the emphasis on aerial moves/screen verticality, so a cut down version of Ryu should probably be on par with a cut down version of Mega Man. Admittedly, any 0-Tier character is game breaking, but having a 5-0-0 or a 4-0-0 team is definitely trolly.
I still have fond memories of smacking Juggernaut out of Headcrush with Dan's Premium Sign when I was younger. A lot of people back then didn't know that Dan had such a high priority interrupt.
Its crazy how much a single point value seems like it pushes a characters viability up or down in this format. Seems like it could probably use some tuning, but maybe using half points or doubling the points overall(so 14 point teams) then adjusting various characters as appropriate.
@@Purlypurlington I think links aren't allowed. Just looking up yipes:ratio tier list and going into images is usually enough. He put Wolverine at 3 points. It's a really bad tier list LOL
@@Se7enRemain Wow, wolverine was 3? This would break all my teams because they all rely at having a volverine. Edit: Checked this tier ypes list and under that ratio tier list, all my teams would be above the max ratio cost of 7, my lowest cost team would be ken + gambit + wolverine (bone) with a cost of 8.
I think the main problem with the 7 point limit is that a single point makes a huge difference, and there ends up being characters who aren't worth it at 4 points, but would be busted at 3. There's not a lot of room for nuance, and idk why it's 7 points to begin with haha
I feel like the problem mostly comes down to figuring out the balance. We are playing an entirely different game here that hasn't had a lot of development. If we increase the total, the top tiers will definitely have to increase their value.
@@worldscoolestperson7672 then increase the high tiers costs. make it 10 points, then make mag/sentinel/storm 7 or even 8. give the middle more granularity/options
looks like maybe the ratio format could benefit from the top tiers costing maybe 6 with a couple still maybe at 5 and the total cost going up to 8. Just an idea given you basically had almost all the 4 cost characters at pretty low. I think this would put less of a crunch on 4 cost characters.
This helped me decide on who to plug into Megaman + Ken. Since MM and Ken don't really rely on supers, Dark Sakura anchor would be extremely easy to pull off
You made a tier list based on numbers that were added from a tier list. Lmao it’s awesome you made this. I would like to see what changes Justin would do to the tier list.
Team I usually run is Juggernaut/Felicia/B.B.Hood or Juggernaut/Felicia/Anakaris. Felicia is my mascot, B.B.Hood/Anakaris are my work horses and Juggernaut is, well, we all know why he's there. Might look into Gambit, I did play him back in the day before I even knew what 'scrub' meant outside of cleaning and hospitals
Never played before but I'm gonna imagine my team is gambit, roll, and probably sentinel. Actually gonna find how to set up the ratio version I remember reading about something being made that displayed the numbers in game. Great stuff as always. Making me wanna play yet another fighter after work.
It's so unfortunate that Shuma doesn't have any reliable BNB's into super without assists because his level 3 is sick and shreds health bars, but it's so hard to land solo, and despite a 1 frame normal he's not great on point
Great list. Like to soon Justin take a look at this and respond. Also makes potentially adjusting some point values around worthwhile. Perhaps Dan and Servebot should be Zeros. Perhaps make it an 8 point system and move Sentinel, Magneto, Storm up to 6. Perhaps 4 and 5 pt characters that are near the bottom could be dropped a point. Great work.
Agree with all the kinda broken character picks with the exception of Storm. Without America's favorite dhc and various cheesy assists she doesn't justify giving up 5 points unless you have an absolutely stupid Storm like Khaos. I consider her the best character in the game but she's not as much of a one (wo)man army as Sent and Mags. EDIT: Thinking about it, she absolutely should be 5 points, for the simple fact that very few if any mid to low tier characters can do anything about her runaway. Jump to the top of the screen, float, lightning attack to reset air position, high priority normals to challenge anyone who dares challenge her air superiority, yeah she's a 5 pointer.
Playing ratio for a while, sometimes I really think we need to have characters at something like 3.5, 2.5, 1.5 points.... there are way too many characters that don't really pull their weight for their cost. I mean, Commando for example, no one picks for 4 points. make him 3 points and he'll be in every team ever. lol.
its like mvc2 year 1 all over again! Its insane to see ppl go through the discovering pains and think a character is broken or good and not know the countermeasures/strats/weaknesses developed over time. I remember very clearly when Spiral was Ivan Ooze reincarnated, Juggernaut and Iceman were "broken". And folks didnt know how to play storm/mag/sent (and still dont apparently) so they were mid tier. Its good youll get learn the why behind characters
Watching ur videos made me wanna play this game. Never really gotten into it when i was young cuz i was really young when the game came out but it is a classic and a really fun game to play
As a Spiral specialist I am offended to to see her under so many meh characters, but for ratios I guess it makes sense. I tend to use Spiral/BBHood/(anyone usually a 3 or above as anchor) and if I’m dealing with a tough player I swap BBHood with Doom and rocks assist. But Spiral can do some crazy shit, as long as it’s not Sentinal and sometimes Storm or Magneto. She kills Cable pretty easy if you know how to use her
Theres a way to balance this even more. For example charging 6 might be too much for top tiers but they should be 5.5 perhaps. So the idea to balance this is, double the points of all, then some +1 some -1. But to make it the most balanced we would x5 everything, then add +4 to the busted ones +3 priority +2 value +1 decent. So you would have a team to make with 35 points, sentinel cost 29, dan cost 5 roll costs 0 wolverine costs 6 megaman costs 18 etc. But could prolly bump up the points to 36-38 and it'd be better. If done right all characters would be proportionally even to pick eventually relative to their cost, making all characters viable. 37 points would probably be best as its the midpoint of the +4 added to the 7x5.
The intent is to double the allowable points to 14 and then adjustments to power levels could be more granular. Rather than Sentinel and Magneto going to a flat 10, they could go up to 11. Juggernaut could go to a 7, while someone like Guile could stay a 6 and Silver Samurai maybe drop to a 5.
jm u needa take logan to the studio, especially metal claw. the mix is there. instant overhead to drill claw / crossunder with cr. rh, air rave shenanigans
Would be kinda interesting to see a licensed Vs. game built around a ratio system; you could do more lore friendly character designs by making deliberately overpowered/underpowered characters but balance them out with their points cost.
i feel its telling that even using the ratios, the clear definitive best are still unquestionably MSS, and unfortunate that using a 4 point character is such a compromise that they are barely used. would this system benefit from another tier with MSS costing 6 points and a team totalling 8 points altogether? more points enable MSS too much but if they cost 6 maybe it could be done
When building a team you need to also consider the counter picks. IE BBHood hunters ult vs your average characters do garbage but compare that to landing it on Hulk, Sentinal or any other large / very large targets it can all but one shot them. Especially if landed against a standing assist character before they hop out. So putting the point max system aside my Top team was Black Heart opener or first swap in on combo confirm with Sentinal as a starter & as my 3rd it was either Omega Red, Doom or Silver Samurai. My combo was if able get the Air juggle Sentinal into air super then Black Heart's meteor ult into his standing RHC ult into any of the 3rd champ's aoe ult. With some good button mashing your last ult can do NUTTY damage. I used to scrimmage vs a competitive player who mained Ryu, Juggernaut Tron Bon. I won usually 1 in 3 on average. As for your list I would take Captain America over Cyclops ANY day especially as a Shoto style character.
Now we just need a ratio ratio rule set where you're restricted to 7 points but also can only have 1 character from any given tier of jmcrofts ratio tier list. Then we'll get Maximilian to do a ratio ratio tier list and from that we'll get our ratio ratio ratio ruleset....
Still working on BB Hood. Gotta be able to make her work for me. She is just too funny to put down. I'm finding myself at this point just trying to avoid jumping and get my ground game right.
Tbh I can’t agree with all your statements I’ve been playing mvc2 since it released From high to low tier but again it’s always good to get another opinion. You do have so valid points, for example marrow just is not very good but to say shuma chun n the wolverines are bad I disagree I feel some characters ratio should be turned down like spiral, sim and other characters like magneto/sent should be turned up to like 6 Anyways like your stuff Thanks
In Gotcha Borg, a Normal Ninja cost 150. The enemy borgs cost around anywhere from 60 to 150. Your main character is around 350. Even if their hp and defense is trash, long as you can build an army that you can avoid attacks and dig in to deal damage, your tiny weak army might win against their heavy cost, or in mvc2 mid cost teams.
My team is definitely gonna be Jill/Cammy/Roll. Jill and Cammy are my favourite characters on the MvC2 roster and Roll allows me to have both of them on a team, plus using Roll is funny too.
I haven't played in months (vet of the game though), and I feel like my theory team (for Ratio) of Shuma, Strider, Akuma (i.e. 3 characters you have at the bottom of your Ratio tier list) could clean up.
I am ignorant, but from where the points value come, and how is used? I believe came from a competitive tournament trying to avoid 15 point team, and set with 10 points or so
Psylocke is a good point character in Ratios, she has triple jumps and plenty of solo and assist helped combos. Also, I think there's more arguments for 4,3,0 right now then 4,2,1. With 4,3,0 you also get Juggernaut or Silver Sam or whatever you want! Also are you read up on Shuma+Iron Man? There's a bit of synergy there actually if you wanted to explore either character.
He sleeping on shuma The eye projectile is stupid good and multi hitting, the ball is think is safe on block, 1 frame jab, cr.hp beam reaches almost half screen and standing Hk is a ridiculous button…he has a command grab and a throw that takes health and adds to his own The team ball super does great chip, shuma is at least a 3 no 🧢
@@salt7582 now now now, Juggernaut is a 3 and straight up obliterates folks for free. Shuma has great points but at no point does he approach uninteractively stupid, like Jugger and Iceman.
And to be fair I think that's just it, Shuma is good but he isn't broken enough to warrant the 3 cost. Whereas everyone else in 3 tier should be more stupid or broken in some way, either as a point or assist or both. also Shuma's movement is quite limited. All that to say, I play him, I like Shuma.
I recently beat the game with Dan, Servbot, and Roll. They're awful but together they almost make a full character. Also, some of the most exciting matches I've ever played lmfao
Hi, I think this concept is amazing! Wouldn't it be cool if an upstart fighting game attempted to balance around this? This character is '4 points' but is very powerful however this is a utility character for 2. very nice balance idea. i know skullgirls has something similar with single chars being stronger than teams but, this could be different in a fun way.
@@zzyzzyxx3rd832 The idea behind ratio is to allow more varied characters to be created without worring about balance or to create based at games/movies/..... characters that are closer to their originals without caring about balance. Or at the specific case of older games like MVC2 make people selection more varied. It shouldnt be a excuse for laziness to balance the game. People complained about CVS1 because it looked that way. They also believed the ratios were wrong and complained about that. It would be awesome, if someone re rationed the CVS1 game with a max 4 ratio points, characters have ratio cost is a number between 1 and 4.
Roll tier is overpowered, because the max ratio was based at a older list. The older list mixed low tier rules with ratio system, this means people above mid tier werent allowed to be picked and you had points to spend at chars between the allowed ones. The best character at the list cost 3 points, roll was alone costing 0 points (roll cost was -1 before it) and the next tier after roll cost 1 point. Max point was 7 points, so it looks like they wanted players to allow themselves two max points characters from this list (ok thing here since max characters from this low tier list arent overpicked normally at normal rules), so two mid tier characters, if to do that they forced themselves to pick a character with lowest cost. The problem is that the lowest cost char was roll with 0 points and assuming you want the player to be able to pick 2 mid tier chars only if he picks the lowest cost char, the max player ratio points should be 6 points (5 if roll was -1) and not 7. They made it 7 problably to have more variety when pick two mid tier chars + "worst" char At justin wong ratio system he just used the same max point, and so it had the same flaw (if you assume you want 2 mid tiers to be picked ONLY if worst char is selected), so you can have a better team then 2 mid tier chars + third one, if third one is roll. If I was justin wong, I would decide the ratio normaly without caring about max points yet (with that as some example he would problably give a 6 to some of his 5 raito chars) and then set the max ratio players have to the maximum value between the average team ratio cost (only teams where the same char isnt picked more than once) and the best char + 2 worst chars. Using his current list, this value would be the maximum value between 7.98 (average team ratio cost) and 6 (one max ratio + two worst chars (roll + ratio 1 char), so the max points each player have would be 7.98 (so 8).
Nice video. I think some characters should probably be rerated, such as Sent/Storm/Mags at 6, and Dan/Servbot at 0. I also think each assist should be rated separately where applicable (such as Commando).
@@seokkyunhong8812 I think the assist makes a huge difference. In regular play, you pick Commando for the assist, and the assist alone makes him a 4 in ratios. But you are still able to pick one of the other assists, so let's say that you do. Is Commando just as strong without Corridor? Hell no. So why should he be rated a 4 character across the board if his Corridor is the only thing worth a 4?
I don't think you have studied chun and shuma capabilities with certain top tiers. Chun just sux if she's alone, which you usually just lead with her and use assist to combo into super with. Also has niche assists herself in an overhead assist and a pretty damn good AAA. For a 1 point character, you get A FAST walker with an air dash, meaning you can do some CRAZY crossups and throw mixups. This helps you spam your assist rather safely because you can often get your assist to be behind your opponent which we all know is hard to punish. Chun also has literally almost average health lol. Shuma has the perks of having a 1 frame jab i believe which basically stops Magneto leads from just getting their turn on you first and having death setups with chaos dimension with certain assists (Blackheart-B, Venom-B, IM/WM-B). Its 3 bars, i know, but most other low tiers don't even have usable supers to begin with, so at least it has lethality. Plus getting health back from throws kinda compensates for it's lower health. That throw does some damage if you know how to mash.
There isn't because marvel 3 is much more balanced. There are no true god tiers in mvc3 and the worst characters in that game are still like B tier at worst
I love how the MVC2 tierlist is the opposite of the COTA tierlist lmao. Spiral at the top and wolvie near the bottom. I wish that was the case for COTA 😔
Just checking to see what the team I chose would end up as and the best tier on my team is BB Hood and each other character goes down a tier Boy, do I have a knack to choosing low tiers, but we will see if I can make it work
Probably me overthinking it but i always felt Wolverine would be alot better if he has alot of health. Given his super power I always felt he should have one of the higher healths in the game but that's just me.
