Time whilst we hate losing, losing to the Pumas is palatable. If you research it you will see we have a long history with their rugby from sending over coaches in their formative years to inviting them to tour, to inviting them and sponsoring a team to play in the Currie Cup and pushing for their inclusion in the Tri- nations to make it the Rugby Championship. Knowledgeable Puma fans will acknowledge this and many refer to the Boks as their “ big brothers”and most of us do take pleasure in their results except when it’s against us and “ little brother” beats us 😀.
@@CrsigBuck have to agree, love the Pumas! I’m not mad in the slightest they beat us, if anything it’s brilliant for the RC that there’s this competition.
Of course, but is not like Argentina didn´t show they deserve a chance to compete. We also made a great effort since rugby here is amateur and those who started becoming profesional after the 1999 WC were doing it by the chances clubs over Europe gave them too. In order to achieve the 2007 third place (winning against the host 2 times) we also had players that actually could make a living of rugby and dedicate fully on that. Yes the inclusion of Jaguares as a franchise was good and the inclusion in the Rugby Championship was also inmense to have international competition over the year among the best. Even thou the NH didn´t want us in the 6 nations, the leagues in Europe also gave players a chance to compete. We didn´t come from nothing. It took a lot of effort and risks, and the amateur clubs in our country to produce this players and giving them a chance to compete at international level. Forever grateful with South Africa, but also grateful to the amateur players that cemented the road and grab the attention to the international leagues and after that, the international national team competition.
ABs fan here: your criticism is warranted and on point. Clearly, we have some very important facets of the game to work on. I think one part of that that is affecting the last 20 mins is mental. I don't think Barrett is handling the captaincy well. He is an excellent player, one of the best locks in the world. And he's absolutely disappeared. Having said that, if whatever the SA camp is doing warrants patience, I don't see why the ABs are not worthy of the same grace. The ABs indeed failed to score in the last 20 mins, but just saying that is misleading. There were mere inches involved in multiple disallowed tries. Saying the ABs have unaddressed discipline issues is also a shade unfair. The ALB yellow card was sudden and surprising. The referee gave him the booby prize because he decided that three in a row = yellow card. Yet he had the Aussie half-back screaming at him for 3/4 of the game, completely out of line, and he got not one but two warnings. He actually slapped Sam Cane directly on the top of the head right in front of the ref... so bringing the refereeing into the conversation is not unwarranted. And if someone tries to suggest that the quality of international refereeing over the last wee while is up to the standard we all hope for, I would say that's objectively inaccurate. Personally, I don't think we are anywhere close to the ABs finished product yet and we may well be in for more salty tears as we head off to face three deadly teams in the north (Ireland, France and an England keen for revenge). But I see many positives emerging from the team at the same time. I'm gonna focus on those and keep cheering my team on.
ABs need one decisive captain an less vice captains. It undermines the captain's confidence. Not sure if Barrett is the guy. Siya was missed by the Springboks in that game.
ABs broke our hearts so many times in the last few minutes of a game we were leading in, that I used to literally believe they were unbeatable. Not any more. They did beat us in the WC but if you remember we hammered at them for last 14 minutes, which used to be their thing. November will tell
Tim, I think that a lot of us forget that Argentina played in a SEMI-Final at the world cup!! Los Pumas is not an average run-of-the-mill team that will bend under pressure. The world is going to see a lot from Argentina in the next few years. And they played the real "opportunist" game against SA. Bokke made a lot of errors and the Argies snatched them up.
@@aidan-ator7844 so Ireland with 3 grand slams 6 6 nations 9 triple crowns record time at number 1 beating France twice New Zealand three times England 3 times South Africa 3 times Argentina twice , you think Argentina have won more and have a stronger rugby heritage than Ireland , stop being a clown…
I'm an Irish man and I will say the top 3 teams are the best in the world...ABs best in History, SA are best every four years and Ireland are consistently the best. There is literally nothing between them.
See in South Africa we have a four year election cycle and mysteriously you see potholes being repaired, less load shedding and houses being built. In rugby we seemingly do the same thing 😆
You are correct with Nz been the best team ever , You are wrong that Sa are only good every 4 years .Sa has a winning record over all the following sides since they first played each other, England, Ireland , France, Wales, Scotland, Australia, and Argentina plus against the British and Irish lions. Ireland has been great the last 3 years but they haven't won anything significant and until they do they won't get the respect from the rugby world .Ireland supporters conviently forget history and the world cup cause there records are dismal in both.Dont want to blow your thunder cause u really have a class team at the moment .But historically you have won the 4th most six nations,the 3rd most triple crowns and that's in a six team competition. All of England,Wales,Scotland and France have a winning record against Ireland. I hope your team wins a world cup soon ,and then your team and supporters will get the respect you deserve. Best of luck for the end of year tour against Nz .
Boks also down to No.2 in the world rankings because of the loss, at least for a week. Argentina looking the business and much improved from the World Cup.
Even if the Boks win in Nelspruit we cant reclaim to spot in the ranking. Home advantage means we start with + 3 points then that puts us more than 10 points clear of the Pumas which means we can't take any points off them
Having feedback from outside the New Zealand bubble is interesting, fascinating even. And definitely refreshing. You, Squidge and others offer perspectives that I do not hear expressed anywhere within NZ media. The most useful insights are likely to come from Julian Shaw, Two Cents and Hakatime, not NZ rugby media. While I'm here, just letting you know been following you since your Great work at the world cup. And your hot take is the first reaction to show up in my RU-vid feed after every All Black game. Great work Tim. An amazing one man band.
Tim, great analysis of the 2 games. Yes, similar situation against NZ and Ellis Park vs Cape Town test. The Boks had good structure to be 17-0 up early in the game, but we needed a stronger territorial game in the latter stages. Too many uncontested up and unders, particularly from Fassi. This opens it up for Los Pumas. Willie Le Roux can pin teams in the corner and therefore creates more set piece advantage. Our scrum was noticeably stronger than theirs, which was a surprise. Expect a tighter and more controlled approach at Mbombela. Siya and PSDT will make a significant difference on Saturday.
From Agentina here... As you said Tim is hard for The Pumas to back up those kind of wins and is not only lack of depth (wich it is of course). More of a mental issue I think... used to be the underdogs and fail at deliverying when there are high expectations.. Still have faith this group of players and staff will get better at it in the next few years...🤞Thanks for your analysis.. much appreciated! 🙌
The only player that played like a world champion was Ox Nche. He was amazing, of all played like him we would have won. Yes Moermat Salmon osnt bok quallity or captain. Hopefully they will look at themselves and come back firing in Nelspruit
Best thing that could have happened, is that Manie kissed the kick, introspection, Tony brown play, with changing our core.. Defence..! Brute force.!... Will be a strugle to match...we need to understand.. That always it has been the 80% plus kicker that wins the big games... SA by 23 this weekend... Hence it was good that we lost..
Hey Tim, love your posts and your passion for the Boks and South Africa are palpable. I lived in the UK for almost 10 years and being back in SA makes me very proud. I am glad you spot all the nuances in Rassie's coaching and I agree with your views 95% of the time. I am surprised that you did not mention Murat's poor performances as a captain and player so far. To me he has been put in a position where is not comfortable. As you know, we have AMAZING locks in our country and loosies so there are no places for passengers. I did honestly not hear his name being mentioned once during Saturday's game. Not as a tackler, not as a runner, almost never in the line out??? Don't get it. Thanks for your continued support and un-biased views of rugby.
As for Mani Lubbock not enough rugby to build up his confidence. He should be relieved of his kicking responsibilities and he will be given the chance to display his talent. I thought also the yellow card decision was harsh. His head was nowhere near the zone.
The problem is if Manie does not kick then you need Pollard at 12 who is at best an average 12 compared to the other options or you need Sasha at 15 and leave the best 15 in the World Willemse out the team. Nah drop Manie, we have Sasha and replace Manie with Siya the 10 fron the Sharks.
Libbok's kicking for touch was terrible too, and his running was sideways and he was throwing hospital passes. His whole season, URC incl, was mediocre, even at Stormers, he shouldnt be 1st choice FH anymore.
Sometime ago I got the sense that Rassie is working towards the rugby version of Johan Cruijff’s total football. Team = 23 rather than starters being seen in glory terms and the bench seen as “also rans” “demoted to” rather than a strategic advantage to deliver a total solution and address the new demands of the faster game, more technical aspects and ever changing rules. Rassie is working on a “new rugby” hypothesis based on the value and merit of all 23 players. Feels like Farrell is on the same mission. The rest of the coaches not really seeing the future.
Tim i agree with you with Nz and their lack of discipline. My own humble opinion is they will do anything in there 22 not to concede a try , but rather give away a penalty. Problem being multiple offences lead to yellow cards .And playing with only 14 or 13 men costs them more points in the long run .
After that defeat I purposefully stayed off social media I knew I loved the boks didn't realise that I loved them that much that defeat bothered me I couldn't even sleep😂. S/o to Los Pumas🇦🇷 always have had a soft spot for them in Rassie we trust see you guys in Mbombela this weekend❤️🇿🇦🤘🏾
Being 1 player down will disrupt your defensive structure...and pumas are very good at knowing when to up the pace...after that yellow it took the guys a while to get their focus back after being rocked
Best summary I’ve heard so far to sum up SA is - Libbok is not the reason SA lost but he is the reason SA didn’t win. If we continue to defend like that then we’re in for some issues down the line.
South African yellow cards in the World Cup , Eben Etzebeth (vs France) Cheslin Kolbe (vs New Zealand) Siya Kolisi (vs New Zealand) V 5 yellows for the AB's , the second time today I heard that South Africa were no yellow cards in the WC ( that cost them in big tests)
Honestly, as a SAFFA, I am not disappointed by the losing. Pumas are a brilliant team, I am disappointed by the coaches not taking out our best team to win first, then blood. But its no shame to lose to the Pumas, they have one of the best backline, just struggle at scrum time.
insightful analysis as always. Sure Manie should have put the kick over, that's a key part of his job, but the rest of the team shouldn't have left him in the position of having to slot it to win. It's a team responsibility. Boks should happily accept the loss and chalk it down to building strength. Rassie has learnt a load about his squad depth over the RC which will put them in a great position moving forwards. Du Toit, Nortje, Dixon, Sacha, Fassi have all come through and others have dropped back like Libbok, Moerat ... If you play your number one team every game you don't build up for the future.
Hi, ok, it's me again. I love the fact that the Aussies showed some guts, I hate the fact that the AB's did not play at their best yet again. These two teams are better than what they are performing at the moment. Not gonna say anything about the bokke, they have their own demons to fight now. But well done for the Los Pumas. We need a stronger Souther Hemisphere group in general. Ireland has been too strong for too long, and although the Bokke could stand up to them, every now and again. The Lions tour is coming. We can't let a full Ireish contingent run amuck here.
Hi Tim great content as usual. Rassie needs to bleed in the next generation players and they need to play on the bigger stages to gain experience. I dont think Rassie is gambling with the Championship he will have a game plan coming to finish it off but 3 years is not allot of time till next WC and the youngsters need to play and answer questions. As far as Tony Brown it will be easier for new players to slot into those changes than the old lot that are set in their ways already.The 2019/2023 WC Boks have a certain way the play with minor tweeks here and there. The new gen players will slot into Browns play much easier
Everybody laughed when I said watch out for the Pumas.... But know this we saved the best for last and we Boks aren't in a good space about the loss. Even with the team we pitched on Saturday. We should have won...... But everybody forgot they won in NZ. And yes the AB are down on the moment, even so they are not easy to beat at home. Thanks for the lesson Pumas.
Salmaan Morat? As lock and as captain? In neither of these roles has he shown that he is worthy of the green and gold. Many as kicker has not shown any BMT. There are three other players, except Sasha, knocking on the door. Look at Hendrikse's kick in the Curry Cup final. The team created the moment for our kicker to win it ...
@@uSbusiso_if their is arrogance it certainly is not from the Springbok squad. That one's on us Bokke fans. Rassie hates losing, but he is willing to risk losing to maintain the current trajectory to remain at or near the top of world rugby. The YC against K-LA was a turning point because it gave Los Pumas exactly the extra bit of space their game plan required (to stretch us as they did Australia). Uncharacteristically, the Boks struggled to adjust to having one less final line defender. That surely may be ascribed to leaving behind 7 key players. For example, Kolbe and De Allende with Willie Ke Roux at fullback would have been 100% better at making the adjustments. The team that was picked was attack orientated but we needed defense in those 10 14-man minutes. My 2c worth.
Well my issue I definitely not with the bok set up Rassie will correct lacklustre play I'm sure of it, however I can't over look the lack of grace I see from my fellow boks. Just stating we need to learn humility for our beloved boks
@@tsv8664 I don't want to lose, and fully accept that we have to build depth and give players exposure. My point is VERY much aimed at the supporters who seem to think winning by a kick doesn't stick us levels above the opposition
South Africa leaving Super Rugby must also have had an effect on the Aussi and Kiwi players. SA players find themselves still competing at the highest levels, where as for the Aussi's and Kiwi's, Super Rugby has been left depleted and ultimately less challenging.
I feel South Africa's issue was their decision making under pressure. With Manie on, you don't win that penalty and immediately go for a drop goal. You play some phases, you attempt a strike play or get the drop goal attempt closer and then go for it. This also uses up the left over time. Even if Manie made that kick, there was still going to be a restart. Definitely leadership is missing. It is the right time to experiment in the world cup cycle, so I am happy over all. Just immensely frustrating to give it away at the death there.
Cheers Tim. I think Rassie was pipped at the post while simultaneously learning a multitude. NZ still refuse to address their disiplone. Too many cards and penalties.
There were some hugely worrying signs in the Bok performance. 1) Libbock proved again that he lacks BMT, yet management fail (or don't want to) to see it. 2) Pollard was out on his feet when he was subbed. Yes it was a hot day, but he looked SERIOUSLY exhausted & unfit. A few other players were hands on knees puffing after just 20min in that match too. 3) Bok defence has gone backwards. Adding running attack to the toolbox is great, but not at the expense of defence. The rush defence has looked a disaster in the last few matches, with the outside backs looking more like ballerinas than rugby players. Faf is still key to the Bok rush defense, him not being there and it's a house of cards. 4) Kicking was mindless. Kick-offs were often way to long, box kicks were poor, no-one is plugging the defensive gaps left by chasers, and the chasers were just not contesting, territorial kicking was horrible - far too many exits just put us under more pressure. 5) Lineouts are a disaster. They look way too complicated. For the last 3-4 matches, probably half their own lineouts have been lost. Defensively that adds huge pressure, and on attack it give the opposition a get-out-of-jail card. Bok rugby is about putting pressure onto opposition, and those lost lineouts are just releasing too much pressure.
Great analysis, Tim. I think as SA, we put ourselves in a very tight position to reduce this to a Manie missed kick. . how we allowed Argies to crawl back from a 17 nil lead is a cause for concern
ABs not putting the rest to the sword is that the ABs are not psychologically in the right place . Their confidence is wobbling and mistakes are made that give the opposition that extra self-belief in pushing to the 80+ minutes.
@@mattweinberg1335 Yes, because they are "not psychologically in the right place" and "their confidence is wobbling" i.e. they are capable of putting top teams to the sword, it's just they aren't feeling well. In fact they are just one of a number of top teams now, not superior to them.
Libbok played his part in the loss (I'm more likely to forgive his easy to convert missed penalty but the over-kick to the corner is the kick that upsets me most because we declined the 3 points to go for a try and that kick ended with ARG scoring. Te real painfully obvious reason for loss is that yellow on KL Arendse. We had no way of defending properly with him gone and I dont blame him, that was a tackle we see regularly in matches without punishment and not the same as direct straight contact to head...so that rule makes for very inconsistent refereeing overall. All that aside I believe Argentina played exceptionally well and fully deserve credit for that win and I dont think we should ever underestimate them. Hats off to them ❤
Progress is key. This was Rassie’s first Bok 23 in 2018: 1. Nche 2. Ralepelle 3. Louw 4. Jenkins 5. Du Toit (C) 6. Smith 7. Mohoje 8. Du Preez 9. Van Zyl 10. Jantjies 11. Mapimpi 12. Esterhuizen 13. Kriel 14. Ismaiel 15. Bosch 16. Van der Merwe 17. Kitshoff 18. Du Toit 19. Orie 20. Notshe 21. Papier 22. Du Preez 23. Gelant A handful are still there two world cup wins later, some are on the fringes or coming to the end of their test careers and others were not so great picks in hindsight. What will the World Cup Squad look like in 2027? Rassie and his staff have some idea.
Obviously I don't know what feasibility studies would say and whatnot, i.e whether the men in suits would like the idea. But right now, Argentina can literally beat any team in the world.
@stiofain88 It isnt about facing one of the top sides. Exploring and experiencing a country for a few weeks is a huge part of the Lions tour. The Brits travel to France every year for the 6 nations.
As always a great summary Tim ! One thought on ABs, as rucking has disappeared from rugby has this been a bigger loss to NZ more than any other nation as well as foreign based players. For SA Rassie has still won a bonus point and may use the game to remove players from the squad who didn’t perform
Part of the ABs lack of discipline issues is just the fact that they always received the rub of the green like no other team when they were seen as 'gods of rugby' by World Rugby, northern hemisphere commentators and the referees. The aura is gone now, and with it the blind eye. When your special status is removed, fair treatment feels like discrimination.
This is so true. I remember shouting at refs in those hallowed years between 2010-2016 when the ABs won everything. They got away with murder... Rassie changed all that by forcing refs to be more neutral and listen less to influential captains.
@@tsv8664Rassie brought in Jaco Pieper to help the boks on dealing with the refs… changed mindset and also never confrontational… also how the refs. View the laws and enforce them.
Teams that are winning most of the time whether it be Jordan and the Bulls or Mcaw and ABs always get run of the green both thru luck and earning that luck.. when teams that are not used to being on losing side pressure builds penalties cards are given
@@ad2040 yup look at teams individuals who win a lot people always think they gettin the calls and they often do is what winning teams do to opponents.. but special treatment no
I trust in Rassie and Nienaber's plan. We kinda have some room to take risks, while also previewing possible players and play styles for the next world cup and going forward.
Tim to your question of is 10 changes worth it. This has been done before, boks made 10 changes and lost to Wales by 1 point, just like this weekend. Does it sting? For sure, but it’s worth it in the bigger picture when SA goes on to win a World Cup. These games answer questions as to who is ready and who is not, and in building a WC winning squad that is vital. Ireland are now number 1 on the rankings, well done to them, however they fell short at the WC as they played the exact same squad in every pool game and then couldn’t get through a quarter. SA rotated through the pool games to be ready for the playoffs. Losses like this hurt but are part of the process of building that squad depth.
The ABs are really missing Mo'unga, apart from being probably the best 10 in world rugby, he would give Robertson much better options around the use of McKenzie, Barrett and Jordan. I think our pack is looking better every outing, hopefully we can get more experience into our young locks along the way.
NZ not scoring in last quarter because they still see 1 - 15 as team and last 8 as reserves. Last 8 have a special role...Kwagga skills suited for the role
Libbock has cocked this up so many times now , it cannot be cured with practice anymore .. he "snatched" at that kick as pure anxiety kicked in ! Feel really sorry for him , so ...he now has to be good enough to make the team without kicking duties ,I think that's a long shot ! ( Excuse the pun )
Whenever the Pumas play the rugby gods flip a coin to determine how theyll play. Us Irish can't wait to play tbe ABs but it's sad, i don't see them as i did growing up. They are vulnerable and weak. Can still beat us but I'm not ss worried as i used to be.
Imo, the AB forwards are fatiguing themselves instead of the opposition defenders. Not so much due to fitness but cos their attacking shape requires more effort to make ground 2 or 3 off the ruck via pods thru a rush defence. They must either carry defenders for post contact metres or be cut down behind the gain line. To get across the advantage line, nz forwards are expending too much energy, so they're spent at the 60th minute. They need to consider route 1, round fringes, narrower attack which condences not only support play, but the defense lines, which can trouble rush defence.... Or I'm possibly wrong 🤔
Hi guy's, Tim your spot on with NZ they have management issues,they genuinely have a problem with 6 and 10 also with 2,6,10 bench players currently not good enough! for that last quarter of the game. Once those positions are sorted the boks will have problems against NZ. Australia on their way back but time will tell. In my opinion Rassie will be forced to take most of his 2 rwc winning veterans to 2027 rwc otherwise he will be having experience problems come 2027. Team of the weekend Argentina setting themselves new a record winning NZ, Aus and RSA in 1 Championship year! Viva Los Pumas Lee Kiwi fan CT
Let’s put this in perspective. South Africa have lost two games by a combined score of two points, while experimenting with selection and while experimenting with play style. What’s the problem, exactly? I mean, we’ve seen how useful an unbeaten run to the RWC actually is when you haven’t put in the work to build depth and variety.
as a bok fan, in the past, we felt that the AB would learn from the first half, go in to change room, adapt, and come out with a plan to score. I feel they have lost that ability to work out the opposition and adapt.
I think Rassie has a “Total Rugby” plan and patience is required!! The other side is, the Bokke did not play well, amazing for 15 min’s odd and then nothing, missed tackles gave the Argies counter opportunities for example! I felt if SA kept it reasonably tight and were accurate they would win! The first 15 minutes showed how good they can be!!
Personally I think the biggest issue with the last 20 for the All Blacks is a lack of caps coming off the bench. Amua has the most in the forwards at 11 or 12 that will get better with time. Things are rough this year, but change always comes with adversity
We learned more from the one pont loss than we would have from a 2-point win if Libok had succeeded with that last penalty. We lost the game but not the Championship
Excellent commentary and insight Tim, thanks for given a few new perspectives... Is going to be interesting to watch the finals this coming weekend. All Blacks by 20; Bokke by 10 (I dare)
Are valid assessment …we should not overlook the brutal trip to travel to Argentina plus the heat …the last ten mins I have yet to see the boks look so fatigued its been a long tournament at high pace …very team will have an off day and they just could not put a full 80 in this game
Don't think we can ever stop talking about Libbok. The same happened in the RWC2023. Even Kolbe (wing) and Faf (scrummie) had to try and kick for points. Yes, the entire team can be blamed, and Pumas also missed some kicks, HOWEVER, Libbok to miss from almost in front of the uprights knowing it will win the game is not the level a Springbok fly-half should be. With the playing-skills Libbok has, which is great, I think hes got it in his blood, so to have him selected in the Springboks team, he should practice kicking for 40 hours per week. And yes, a lot is said about all the other players who should have had the team leading and not 1 point behind, but they at least did play and convinced the ref to blow a penalty in front of the posts. How did Springboks win the RWC... By having Pollard replace an injured hooker, by having a kicker to win QF, SF, F with kicks.
We all knew that new Zealand tournament with out south Africa...the referees let the game flow..but would rugby referees dnt blow this way any more..this are something we recognized playing there and we had to adjust when we went to Europe
Don’t forget SA gets plenty of very wet slushy weather I recall well from school days all the way up the coast…its only JHB that is far dryer and harder pitch with heavy frost underfoot…the Cape is extremely wet in winter and also experiences very cold winters….besides the UK porches are arguably better drainage system ….
