S2 - 11 - Load Development (Part 2 of 2) 

You guys have done an awesome job with all your 2016 shot Show videos. Thanks for your dedication to the shooting sports.

Hey guys... lucky you guys don't charge me for how many times I keep coming back to Part 1 & 2 of this video!! It's really good content and spot on the money. Once again thanks and keep the great content coming. Cheers Ian

I agree with Todd B that Scott Satterlee just sacrifices one case/bullet combo and takes it from jammed into the lands and seats deeper in 0.005" increments until there are no marks on the ogive. For someone without a custom fired round to use with the Hornady device, this method is by far the best. Phase 2 is 5 rounds at 7 loads at 0.3g interval. Phase 3 is analysis, and Phase 4 of Scott's process is 10 rounds at 5 loads at 0.1g interval. The last targets you show at ~12:21 appear to be almost a hybrid, because your load intervals are mixed with some 0.3g and then 0.1g. Nothing with 10 rounds though. The short intervals around the middle made that plateau look better than it might have been.

One of the best sites on RU-vid! Great presentations, honest discussions, and good videography. You can be proud of the job you are doing. You provide a great service to those of us interested in precision rifle activities. Thanks and keep up the good work!

Great series! I've certainly learned a ton from your reloading videos and have been able to refer a few of my friends to your channel as well. As a younger shooter just getting into PRS, it's nice to go to the range and show up some of the old farts :) I'm running a Tikka Tac-A1 in 6.5 CM with a load of 42.5gr H4350 with a 140gr ELD-M and getting 2742fps with an SD of 6. At 200 yards I'm shooting 1/2 Inch groups on average from a bench. It's no custom action, but definitely a high value platform.

I do the seating depth before the OCW and just about every time I do it I get 1/2moa or close to 1/2 with just a middle of the road charge weight and seating depth variation... I test 10 thou in the lands, 10 thou jump, 30 jump and 50 jump... never fails.... I used to try different seating depths after doing the ocw and that didn't alter the groups whatsoever... now I do it the other way and getting a solid predictable 1/2moa load is a piece of cake. I use a chrono when doing any testing and the chrono is worth every penny. When taking a middle charge weight to test seating depth, I look at the chrono results and decide how much further up in charge weigh to load for the OCW. Just like you guys, I don't wait much between shots because I want my load to be stable no matter the barrel temp... When working up loads for hunting rifles I might wait 30 seconds between shots and minute of two between groups.

Another awesome video!!! thanx guys!!!

realy nice. I am now testing powder in my 6,5x55 using Labradar. I lock for powder with low variation in temp and also try to find a nice spot wher the speed is stabel and variation over the whinter and somer. I think it will be a short movie about my test.

Wow. Super tight velocities!

Great video! Thank you

I think your "nervous tick" may be you looking at the bubble level with your right eye, squinting slightly for a focus change from the reticle to the level

Just watching for the first time. Someone had a similar question. Did you cite (if not could you) the manual/book you used for each load, to include you barrel lengths and twist? I ask, only because data amongst the variety of loading literature for a given cartridge appears to be all over the place until you realize, oh, this manual used a 26" barrel 1:12 twist where this one used a 22" barrel 1:9 twist. Thanks for all the great knowledge and truly showing how technical and challenging the world of sport shooting really is. Kind of like those that think NASCAR is just turning left the whole time. Shooting is not just pulling a trigger. God Bless and keep doing what you're doing. ~Jim

Ed, some of the flyers you're seeing are occurring on the scatter nodes, so it's not "loose nut on the trigger" :) ... I doubt you've caused those flyers in every case is what I'm saying. Remember that the scatter nodes (or anti-nodes) are normally 1.5% away from the OCW. If you can't decide for sure on an OCW based on the groups you're seeing--look for the scatter node, and go 1.5% above or below that point--it'll normally bring you to an OCW node. As I believe we discussed when we talked, I don't like to worry with chronograph numbers until I've found the OCW based on the target alone, but it's fine to record those numbers along the way... as long as we don't throw out an obvious OCW (located 1.5% between scatter nodes) based on initial chronograph numbers.

I've recently seen this exact same thing with my .308 load work up. .2 grain of Varget difference can be big on the extreme spread. I really didn't believe it until I watched this video. Although I have watched this video before I wasn't as serious with my load work up then as I am now. Groups at 100 were pretty close in size but the ES was literally cut in half with .2 gr of powder. Thanks

GREAT ADVICE. I DO PRETTY MUCH THE SAME BUT AT 200 METERS, SEEMS TO SORT OUT THE GOOD AND BAD LOADS A BIT EASIER ...

I wish you had made a part 3 to this series to show the effects that different seating depths can actually have on group sizes and how you go about testing and choosing which ones are best.

when I do load dev I'm focusing not just on the overall size of the group, I'm also tracking the spread top to bottom. Your gonna have nodes where the deviation is low ion FPS but the group spreads. "Best Data" doesn't always correlate to tightest group. Then, ya need to stretch out to 200 yards n see how they stabilize. My 6.5 Swede with 140 gr TMK's over 45 gr of 4350 would group 1/3 MOA at 100...even better at 200. They seemed to settle down better. My Bench-rest buddies told me they see that all the time.

In the beggining it was Adam and Eve, not Ed and Steve.

In using my own magnetospeed, I'm pretty sure I've seen it improve the groups of a so-so load and hurt the groups of a great load. I'm not capable of shooting in the "1s and 2s" consistently, so I can't be certain, but it sure seems to be the case. Personally I wouldn't be comfortable using groups shot with the MS chrono as the basis for an evaluation.

Thanks for the great video. Two things occur to me to ask: will virgin brass throw off this method and how many rounds to you put through a new barrel before using this method?

great video.

Love the video's! Thanks very much. just about to start a round of load development for my 1:10 twist .243 Win using 90 grain Berger projectiles and have found this and the previous video very helpful.Keep up the great work 6.5 Guys! From Keiran, Australia.

Hi guys . Love your channel . I am building a f class 260 ackley and wondered if you guys hsve load development data that is possibly covered in one of your videos . Keep up the good work .

When searching for the best charge, what distance are you shooting in phase 1?

A number of you have been asking about the spreadsheet we used. It's been uploaded to our website: www.65guys.com/load-development-part-2-of-2/

On the alternate OAL experiment, I think Scott was suggesting loading one dummy round and gradually seat the bullet a little deeper in each step - instead of loading 10 or more dummy cartridges.I really like the discussion of loading thoughts and processes. I'm still on the fence regarding the possibility of the Magnetospeed affecting group size.Did you guys talk about varying case capacity or neck tension affecting velocity variation?

Great videos! One question, do yall clean the barrel out between groups? Starting to load for myself and was wondering if running a bore snake through the barrel after every group would be beneficial or not. Thanks again for yalls knowledge!

Hey guys, great video. I'm preparing to develop a load for my deer rifle, and it's got a featherweight barrel. Generally, I try not to shoot more than three rounds at a time without letting it cool off. Which is the greater sin, to limit my test loads to 3 round strings, or to break my position and let the barrel cool?

Hi guys, really good video! Any chance you would share that excel file? Looks awesome. Keep up the good work.

Love how you critique your behaviors and miss how ugly you are... Great job guys, along with Gavin's video I find myself sharing yours with so many others looking to get into reloading or improving their relaoding.

I think we all assess numbers differently. At 12:04, load 4 shot 3 shots in a row that clocked at the exact same speed. The shot before those 3 had a 3 fps difference. The initial shot, for whatever reason, threw the group data and SD off because it was about 20 fps. Little things like that would make me re shoot that group because SD can be extremely misleading sometimes.

this spreadsheet you using to visualise your development... is it available ?

What seating die do you use? and what program are you tracking your SD with? I really enjoy your videos and love how informative they are. I am a newer shooter, just learning to reload and these videos are invaluable.

Gentlemen, why do you vibe the powder down? Is this simply to make more space for the seating of the bullet or is it something to do with powder density?

You guys should do a ladder test. I always have better luck with load development at distance. SD and ES are extremely important but the bullet never lies at distance.

Is it possible for me to get a copy of that awesome spreadsheet template. Great video thanks. Update... Looked through the comments and found the link. thanks!

Have you noticed adverse effects to groups and ES/SD when shooting to quickly? Personally I have. When I get in a hurry and the heat starts to build in my chamber I'll notice that I get some high speeds. I feel that there needs to be consistency in the time between shots too, which is hard at the range when there are seize fire and it takes so much time to get through a test. So I set a 2 minute timer on my phone on spring and fall days but in the summer when temps start creeping up in the 90's I'll wait 3 minutes between shots. Your groups and SD's are tight so maybe it's not an issue for you.

So in step 2 how do you determine the "target accuracy load."? Is that the max load in data manuals?

Another very informative video. Keep up the good work. I'm curious if you've ever tried using a Gem Pro 250 to fine tune your powder loads. I agree with the other fellow about the Chargemaster weights having a big variance. With all the work your going to for precision shooting it would be worth a look.Might make an interesting video:) I also sort all my bullets by measuring base to ogive. There are some real differences between lot numbers. You guys have the best and most informative videos.

I'm still pretty new to this game but I'm curious as to why you look at SD/ES? Isn't this more about the person loading? IE when I look at group 4 of h4350 You have one shot at 3019. If you drop this load you have an ES of 7 and SD of 3.4? I've always used OCW but curious to learn more about this metric. Oh and great videos!

I just found you guys a few days ago and love your videos. I started long range shooting a few months ago and love it. would love to try prs match but feel im not prepared yet. Hopwfully your videos will help. I shoot a savage 12 lrp in 6.5 cm and can get 1/4" moa with berger handloads so i feel the rifle should be capable. Whats #1 piece of advice to get prepared to shoot prs. thx

How many firings were on the brass?

Do you clean your barrel between each group? I wonder, whether shooting 6 x 5 bullets may foul the barrel enough to impact the results in a factory rifle.

You guys allow barrel cool down at all?

that spreadsheet stuff looks pretty cool, is it your own thing, or is it something you downloaded? i'd like to have something like that. also those targets, are they printable? basically the tl;dr is, load to 20 thou from lands, find a good starting powder charge point then load up +/-. shoot 5 rounds, recording velocity and grouping. examine data and look at ES/SD and vertical stringing and identify the best load. after that experiment with seating depth?

Really like the he target you used for load development at 10:00. Is that downloadable to print? Thx

why wouldnt you start farther off the lands since you cant chase the wear of the throat. litz says vlds can jump good so starting at .005 or more off the lands will give you room to chase the throat wear.

@edmobley3 what is your funnel set up on top of the dillon powder die? thx

@10:07 I noticed you Magnetospeed v3 data on a MS Exel, BUT, where did you get the bullet curve? Is there a video on how you can set this up via MS Exel?

Do you guys still load develop with this method? I'm wondering if there's a way to blend this with OCW

Wouldn’t step one of all of this be brass prep? I’d love to see a video on brass prep start to finish.

how can you find a difference of .2 grains in increments using a chargemaster? those thing are meant to do the preliminary dump for you and then use an accurate scale with at least +/- .o2 grain tolerance and get out those tweezers.... you have all this expensive stuff you load with and then you rely on a chargemaster which I have seen to be off as much as .2 grains or more per charge. You could have missed a lot of good loads and seating depths with that kind of variability. you don't have to handload every time but when you are testing it makes sense to cut out all the variables so your test is as valid as possible.... after you find the best load that is the most accurate and forgiving, then you can dump powder. jmo

Are you at Cascade Range in Ravensdale WA?

Do you weigh sort your brass as well

What spread sheet are you using? MS Excel or something different?

You might want to see a functional neurologist. The ticks and blinking might be a symptom of a brain function that can be fixed. Your brain/body might not like the head position and/or incoming information that can fixed from their diagnosis and therapy.

Hi Ed what barrel twist are you guys running with these 123 scenars and these loads? Thanks

What software were you using ?

Hey 6.5 Guys, i'm fairly new subscriber. Do you have that excel spreadsheet template anywhere that i can download?

where can we find that loading word document at?

Do you two have the same length barrel?

Remember Ed ...your looking for nodes not groups ....

Great Video! Do you guys get POI shift with the Magneto speed attached on the Barrel? I just got one Magneto and I'm not sure yet if i should leave it all the time on the barrel during load development or not. How do you do it during all your load testing? Thank you

Umm, umm, ummm, and uh, uh, uh ... come on guys.

It's weird that you guys seem to say what I think is the right thing about other people and their comments on groups (it's the nut behind the gun), but then do the same thing on your end where you try to justify why a tight group is a quality group and good data. it's like you (and most people) want to believe the numbers in good groups and dismiss them in bad groups. As a thought experiment, consider a 5 shot group that is fairly tight but with one flyer. We generally blame ourselves for that flier and focus on the tight group. I've done it. had a .497 group that I change how I held during one shot...so I just threw that one of five out and now my group was .179. However, imagine another 5 shot group where the ACTUAL group should be .497 but your "flier" was actually offsetting the real physics and the shot that should have opened the group actually made it tighter. I tell students (and others) it's like having too much finger in the trigger that pushes your shot left just as a right gust of wind whips up. WOW! Bullseye! So the only way to really verify the group is to reshoot it many times. I'm sure you mention this eventually, but in your vids, and everyone elses, you rely on a 5 shot group in development to pick the best load when in fact it might have just been stacking errors that negated each other. When your other guest talked about statistics and you guys mention "back in high school" or whatever, remember, gaussian distributions rely on large data sets. IIRC, you have to have 30 data points to have any kind of quality analysis. SDs on a 5 data point set is really not meaningful. I think I also saw someone's analysis (Litz, maybe) that says your group size in MOA can reliably be scaled up based on shots. I forget the formula, but it basically said a 3 shot group at 1MOA is the same as a 5 shot group at 1.2MOA is the same as a 10 shot group at 1.4MOA, etc. It was talking about "what should I expect in F-Class shooting". It went up to 20 shot groups. What it really means is that as you approach a quality amount of data points, the truer precision is revealed. It helps cancel out fliers and luck. And if you're shooting a 20 shot string for F-Class, and you're assuming you have a 1/2 MOA gun based on some "best 3 shot group", you'll be disappointed. In fact, I'm trying to make time to take my 147 ELDX over 39.9gr RL17 in Lapua brass w/ CCI SR primers out of my Savage Stealth 6.5 wearing a NF 3.5-15x NXS and a Gemtech Tracker can (whew, that's a mouthful) , out to verify the load by shooting 10 5-shot groups of just that load. Those 10 groups should sufficiently show what that's really capable of. My 4-shot .179 group was surely a fluke. I'm hoping for 1/4MOA honestly from my stock gun. Waiting for my new Labradar. Just got set up as a dealer. Liked my Magnetospeed. Don't like setting it up. Don't trust that it doesn't change data hanging off the end of the can. And don't like that I can't use it for pistols. I do my groups without it and then used it to check velocities. Labradar should solve that potential problem.

Don't worry Steve, the chubby face and the grey hair happens! HA

Hey guys i made a video of how to use your spreadsheet! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-rAIl14lLQ2w.html

love your videos more then anything its to funny if you watch nutandfancy -hicock45 on youtube they will tell you its not the ammo it the person shooting the gun and practice practice practice===the truth is you can lock a gun a 4 moa gun in a vice and shoot it 5,000 times --and take it out of the vice its still a 4 moa gun--- it comes down to the load - and the gun and testing testing testing different loads------not practice! skill ------- practice is testing with load development and skill is reading wind--- and millions and millions of gun wanabees are caught in the urban ledgend lie of nonsence!!!!!!!!! thank you for the video guys!!

if you are testing off a bench why do you not use a mechanical rest ?I know you have REAL lives but way too long between vids...your peeps are waiting lol# !!!