Saddle Fore and Aft for pedalling efficiency | My experience 

I actually considered the changes in saddle height while moving the saddle on the rails, but cut it off the video. If anything I could not feel a change on the height and almost felt higher and not lower when I had the saddle further forward. I would need to look more into this aspect. Ciao!

This video is far better than the bike fit videos out there, because it's action, not concept. I ride a TREK Discovery, 2006, dream bike and was never fitted. After all this time, I'm exploring why I have pain here and there. It's the smallest adjustments, and what feels correct that Federico was explaining. 😁

Look at those 3 beautiful / practical rim brake bikes 👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻

"No need to get angry" when it rains, quite funny 🤣. But great video. Again. Thanks! Best from the Netherlands.

Thank you for sharing your experience

Excellent work as always 👌🏾✊🏾👍🏾

Thank you for broaching this important topic. I've found that saddle height, angle, and fore/aft position are critical, and that minor "experiments" can result in painful conditions lasting weeks. In addition to knee, hip and back pain, I've enjoyed new and intimate hot spots and bruises due to changes in pressure on the saddle. Once dialed in, though, it's liberating.

Another great video for cyclist like me trying to fine tune my own bike fit. I've followed your other advice and it's made me more comfortable and efficient.

nothing beats that last tweak to suddenly feel dialled in on the bike. I usually make adjustments on the road in mm increments if needed. Also, bikes can feel different on different days due to muscle stiffness, sitting at the desk all day and other activities. If you do other off the bike exercise and get tight hamstrings or soreness, don't change the bike position, it's just you being stiff. I've had days where the bike feels amazing and then the next morning it's like someone elses bike. I've started doing calisthenics off the bike and it has helped alot with feeling good/reducing back and neck soreness on the bike.

Thank you man!! After watching your video, I adjusted my cleats and saddle position forward by 1-2 centimeters, and I achieved much more power on the next ride. I think I've found my true bike position.

Great video as always 👏even if here and there I have some difficulties to understand (my English is not so strong). Never the less I think I got you primary idea. Anyway I'm waiting for my new Pro Stealth saddle and this will be for sure one of my future concerns. Thank you Federico! Ciao 🙂

This is educational and most likely this explains my tendons feeling like they do at times.. going to make some small incremental changes. Thanks !!

Excellent points 👍

As i struggle to fully understand what differences the changes mean it's extremely helpful to have a video like yours to animate where and what I'm looking for. I'm a new bicyclist just looking to commute, but I'm currently on the wrong machine because that's what I happen to have, small frame causing all kinds of difficulty. But my mind is growing to better understand my next bike along with my endurance as I cover 20-30 mile rides. Thank you

I've always used the 'shove right forward and see want happens' technique. So far so good. Width and angle is a whole other story...😁

After setting up the proper height, I always used the KOPS method, now that I'm in my 4th bike which is a more aero one I noticed suddenly that I was using only the pointy end of the saddle. As a result I've set my saddle quite far forward and used short rides to tweak this. As a result I'm still further forward than with KOPS but not as far as when I started. Your example of the leg position and thoughts on pushing for power is spot on, this is exactly how I did it. I'm using the full saddle now and my petit bum is happy for it. Great video as always, cheers.

Thank you. For me, with shorter legs and a longer torso, saddle fore aft has been (and remains) critical for better power transfer and more importantly comfort. Took me a while to work this out. That seat tube angle is arguably the most important! I ended up with zero setback seat posts on some frames just to get far enough over the BB! I wish had of worked it out sooner

bravo champ, I hope to figure this out for myself in the near future.

Spot on, Federico. Notice how pros move to the nose of the saddle, "on the rivet," when climbing, chasing down a breakaway, or sprinting? Putting the crank under the rider adds considerable power. It feels so good. Seat tube angles have a lot to do with saddle setback. 73 degrees places the saddle further back, good for the quads, but the hips aren't centered and the upper body bounces around at high cadences. 74 degrees, one degree forward, puts the legs up over the crank. Trackies use 75 degree seat tubes and just stomp on the pedals at high cadences, the whole body in play. I have both bikes, a touring bike, 73/73, meant to be ridden moderately, and a racing bike, 74.5/75, meant to be ridden hard. Going from one to the other is like a sedan to a sports car, a true cheap thrill. Keep us informed on your experiementing!

Yep, toggle up your strokes, mixed martial arts, me: Forward on saddle + down strokes for spinning, shallow climbs, accelerations Forward on saddle + knees out stomp down strokes for steep climbs, and big gear ring accelerations transition into forward strokes once up to speed Back pos on saddle + forward strokes for cruising flats, and sustained soft peddling big gears

Excellent. Would be interested in the whole "weight on arms" aspect of all this too. I have to be really far back to feel comfy If I want to do a 3 hour ride on the flat, which is a shame because I definitely feel like i'm "pedalling from the back" as Fede says here.

I have experimented a lot, with road and off-road bikes. The key points for me are: 1. The saddle must be good for me to move forward-aft, to either concentrate on different muscles or release myself from localized butt pain :-) 2. I need to have its height at the position where my leg is almost straight to the pedal at the cranks lower point. I do this bare foot, so the shoe+cleats with no spacers brings my leg at a good/safe stretch point. 3. My most efficient pedaling is with my calve perpendicular to the ground. However, see point 1. 4. I always have the saddle nose very slightly down, but this depends on my personal preference and anatomy down there. In any case, your comments are the best in RU-vid. I have watched many “specialists” and never got their approach. You speak with experience, well done.

Hi Federico. The way I found the proper for/aft position of my saddle is to perform the “Naruto test”. Obviously after setting the cleats back on my shoes and getting the right saddle hight. It’s a controversial topic. Lot’s have been said and written on it. I guess as long as the cyclist is confortable and happy with the position, that’s all that matters. And by the way, your Montreal fan is still 😡 that you did not inform you were in town last summer. Just kidding! 😂😂. Great information as alway. Salute.

Aloha from Maui, I have never messed with this position on my newest bike but might want to try, when putting down power I tend to inch forward to the front of the seat maybe I should just move it up a tab and sit normal. Worth a try I guess. 🤙

From what I was told from a fitter and reading is that if you move the saddle forward, you need to raise the saddle and vice versa

I currently have my saddle back quite far. As soon as I put it forward slightly I feel a lot of pressure in my hands, and fast decents feel unstable and not as "in control". But I do sometimes find myself out of the saddle and coming back onto the nose. I use the ryden tool also to track any changes. But I always end up with a setback of 20mm behind the BB. Good video though, I love tinkering with my position now I have the ryden tool as I know I can get it exactly back to the previous position.

When moving the saddle forward like that then should have moved it up as well. I think it is something like for each 3mm forward it's like 1mm up or is it the other way around. That would explain the front of the knee hurting

Easier way is to adjust the saddle so you can just take your hands off the bars without face planting. That also will naturally be where you are balanced fore and aft through the knee and hips. This is for being comfortable and efficient long term. For competition, there is no limit how far forward you can go. Really comes down to how much pain in your hands you can tolerate, and how long before your knee cartilage is gone. The issue with the knees is not knees over toes, it's knees over toes in an artificial position, pushing the opposite direction with your feet than you would when standing knees over toes.

Frederico. I´ve watched several bike fit videos in youtube and a consensus is that once you move the saddle Fore/Aft, you would need to adjust the saddle height accordingly which can help to reduce the knee extension you are mentioning. have you tried that as well? Other thing i noticed is that the whole thing is really like a spider web of parameters: i had to shift my saddle all the way back due to excessive weight on my hands as well loss of balance. Some say that the saddle Fore/aft is about the center of mass. by adjusting mine back, i had to decrease the saddle height and also change a little the clit position (following your previous sugestion). its overall a very complicated topic and i think we will be chasing the perfect fit forever :P

I need to be far behind KOPS to balance (XC MTB). Then the saddle tilt angle is also a factor, hope eventually I'll dial it in 😅

Great video Fede, I think we all play around with fore and aft positions in search of that optimum position but seldom do we really find it, even when we get really close we can’t help but alter it again.. on a different subject Fede, do you use heart rate as a metric, I don’t think I’ve heard you mention heart rate in any of your videos and I’ve watched them all, it would be interesting to share your thoughts on the subject. I have used a heart rate strap for the last 4 years but now for no particular reason I don’t bother and just ride my bike based on feel. Regards Mark

Love your voice ! For the bike fitting I'm a freak, can't stay a week (since 2012!) without changing at least a setting ! So I'll only talk about my last 2 weeks changes > Tried very far back saddle on my last 2 cyclo-cross races (so lowered too), the 1st was flat, super muddy so super slow, LOVED the feeling of power seated, the 2nd had a long climb, where I felt like pure SH#T from the 1st meter on of the climb ! Same position, but like night and day due to terrain... All in all, in my XP, any adjustment should be done IN CONDITION, for the purpose, on a meddley of the route/ speed that reflects what/how you'll ride, and on your most steady physical form... NEVER think outside will be like on a trainer. Ciao!

Great video, funny I watch same RU-vidrs. I noticed your commuter Ultimate appears to have a zero setback seatpost vs other Ultimate. Do you feel a difference in comfort and did that influence setback any?

Just gone through the same process. My bike originally came with a 25mm setback post, and I have long legs, that put me into a very rear sitting position. When I heard about the "down stroke" or "the force is mainly exerted through that downward motion", I was always confused, because my experience with pedaling is almost "forward" -- there's no distinct "down" for me. Where is the down-stroke exactly??? Until one day I dramatically changed the position and suddenly I just "get it" what the "down" means. A lot of folks there they don't have much power so this might not be a problem for them, and that's why I just got along with the OEM setup for so long without actually having a problem. However when your power goes up, you'll find there's counter weight problem -- in order to pedal "forward" without your body moving backward, you have to find something to hold on. This is basic physics 101 in action, every force has to be a counter force there and if not the net force is not zero and the object moves. If you seat too rearward, you'll find when you exert some serious force, you'll have to pull the handle bar back so that you stay in the saddle. It's a natural movement that many people not even notice while they are doing it unconsciously. In these situations you are better to just use your body weight. Standing pedaling is a good example, as you just put your body weight on that pedal and the weight will take care of everything else. What I find is with a proper fore-aft position, when riding in crouched aggressive position, your center-of-weight or at least the rear part of that should be directly over the pedal's downstroke path. In this way it just unweights the saddle area, and the hands -- that's what those fitters said and those pros experienced. Unfortunately a lot of casual riders just never have the power to experience that. You don't really put a lot of weight through your hands and butt. That's why riding in the rivet actually is a thing. And why aggressive position is not that hard if you actually ride hard. I remember that once the "aero bar" become a thing in the Olympics for the first time, that rider who used it to break records said that these bars give him another leverage -- that's when you are too powerful that your body weight is not enough to act as a counter weight. The same holds true for the sprint when you aggressively pull the handle bar to put out 1000+ watts. A lot of people just don't get it. A lot of bike fitters too I guess, because not so many of them actually ride fast or aggressive. Now I'm still in that pursuit of the best position. Because the water is further mudded by the saddle height and cleat position. Sometimes the front knee pain is not you are pushing rearwards, it could be just the fact that pushing saddle forward shortens the effective saddle height. However your legs as a linkage system, the relationship is not simply the math Sin(90-yourSTangle). I guess the only way to get it right is just try try try.

Fyi, my wife hates you now. I tried to convince her i needed another bike because you said its a good idea to try setting them up differently....it did not work 😂

It's interesting how time trialists set their saddles well forward, but their weight is supported by their elbows. There may be a trade off here for road bikes.

I have very forward position on my bicycle (to the point that it is not anymore compliant to UCI rules with the saddle I use). Zero issues long-term. That way I can get myself lower because it opens up hip angle. If hip mobility is limiting factor that determines your position you might also consider more forward saddle position for this reason. But there might be tradeoff. I feel like I have difficulties using all my aerobic capacity on bicycle because some of my muscles fail to soon. I wonder if more backwards saddle position could slightly improve muscle recruitment. I don't believe the difference could be large though and I would rather bet on improved aerodynamics. Additionally, this position reduces self-stabilizing of your body on your seat and induce movement towards nose of the seat which can aggravate pressure on the knees and hands. If you have problems with your knees I would suggest you try to make better, more solid interface between your hands and your handlebar (for example by using different shape of handlebar, by changing angle of the hoods, by slightly shorter reach) and try to knowingly recruit more upper body muscles to be more stable. You can better counter forward momentum and stabilize yourself if you grab your drops boxing-style and if your hoods are a bit steeper. Edit: I noticed your saddle is tilted downwards quite a bit. I certainly know that would never work for me the way I and my bicycle are set. Maybe it also started to contribute to your discomfort. I would suggest you try to slightly reduce the saddle tilt and if you cannot do that comfortably on this saddle, try some another one, preferably one with more contour that sets you in place.

Been playing with my Ultimate in dialling in the fit, probably may end up going to a fitter. I’m 172cm and have an XS Ultimate and I ‘feel’ a bit stretched with my hand on the top of the hood, I tend to place my hands 2cm behind the hood for upright comfort. The bike comes with 80mm stem but I’m wondering if 70mm would make it more ‘comfortable’ or is it just my body isn’t good for racing geometry rather an endurance bike.

Was that a bit of Kubrick I heard?

at the end of the video , where the straight edge is placed along the seat tube , it looks as though the nose points at 20 degrees . wouldn't that position throw you forward and make your hands feel excess pressure ?

Use flat pedals. You could adjust while you ride