Saddle Fore/Aft Explained - How far back should your saddle be? 

James: dont move the saddle forward to shorten the reach Me: FUCK

One day if I ever get a fit with James I can't wait for him to tell me how all my previous fits were wrong 😂

I had knee pain, I thought it was the setback. I moved my seat all the way back and it got fixed but my reach was too long and I got neck pain... After watching this and the saddle height video, I returned my setback to center and reduced 30mm of seat height. All Fixed!!!!

I love coming to this channel every day to hear James tell me that every single fit I've ever had is 100% wrong.

“What if your saddle is too far forward?” You’d get a call from UCI.

I was slow to comment because my saddle was too far away from the keyboard.Also, great video, thanks!

I can listen to this guy lecture about bike fit all day.

As a total amateur, this series has really opened my eyes to all the stuff I've done wrong so far!

You guys are legends for doing these videos. So informative, so helpful, would also be for the millions of people who don't watch these. Bad positions on bikes are so common, spreading the word on proper bike fit is now more important than ever with the increase in popularity of cycling. Keep up the great work fellas!

Thanks guys, been wanting this episode for ages. 👍 It's become clear over the last couple years that my next frame will be 1 size smaller.

James, looked for this video on purpose today, I am a Michigan based fitter and this helped me so much with a client. Thanks

As a fitter, i also find that riders tend to self-select a saddle height that is too high and that seems to necessitate a "too far forward" saddle. James would be pretty hilarious with a whiteboard. Love you guys, keep up the great vids.

Love these recent videos, there are similar online but some conflict with one another, James makes it so clear to the point

James looks like he belongs on a 1930s freighter

1 James should be a bike fitter for bike fitters, so they understand their mistakes ( on the idea, if you don’t like what you have done, don’t do it to others) 2 He is like a cool Einstein, you can see his brain flooding with information, but he’s mouth cannot cope with the output ( i mean it in a good way, as a compliment ) 3 (Maybe for next bike fit video ) How often should you have your bike fit redone? Work/life style can change your flexibility....I suppose that will affect your position/comfort on the bike. Again, kudos for the content 🤘🏼

My God James you could be a college professor and teach the art of bike fit for a full semester! I love listening to your bike fit advice! I sometimes wonder how can you know so much? James please take your bike fittings on the road and come to California. I will gladly pay for one of your awesome bike fittings. Even if you didn’t have to change anything on my bike, just listening to you would be worth the price. Then if we went and had a couple beers (pints) at the local bar (pub)and heardJames spew bike talk while intoxicated I would think I died and went to heaven! Keep up the great videos. Next thing you know I am going to start saying “bloody” and “mate” from listening to you guys so much. Thanks guys!

I wish there was an emoji I could use on here to demonstrate me slapping my forehead with the expression of....I’ve been doing it wrong 😑. There has been a few vlogs on RU-vid of late covering this subject and guys this was without doubt the best explanation to date. No one else has ever mentioned seat posts. Thx.

YOU'VE SOLVED MY PROBLEM! I'm 6 feet tall with a long torso and short legs. I was putting my saddle all the way forward because my large bike has so much reach. But in doing so, I had to raise my saddle and ot gave me so much pressure in my shoulders and lower back. Now I can lower my saddle and reduce the stack for my short arms. Thank you.

Nice Skx on James there, we need to see more of his collection! Also, great explanation on the saddle setback.

I love these videos!! I am always learning something new!!

My opinion is most professional bike fitters are watching and learning from bfj! If not they should be! James knows his craft and try's to educate. Cheers Francis and James.

Thanks for this one Francis and James!. I got into cycling late and had a LOT of hand discomfort until I followed James' advice to lower the saddle. Fore/Aft has been a big question for the last few months

I did a bike fit in a local shop when I got into cycling, and the guy used the Kop's Method... I wish I had seen his video before, since I did not run away then! To be honest, I did felt like it improved a lot my pedaling mechanics, in that I felt kind of "behind the pedals" before, and "above the pedals" after moving the saddle forward, per Kop's Method... but lately (since I now have an indoor trainer because of pandemic and stuff) I've been experimenting more, and after watching some of your videos I lowered the saddle and slid it back closer to the center of the rails... and it feels good! I'm doing it slowly, I will try lowering it a bit more and see how that feels. What I mean to say is, thanks for the excellent and scientifically-based advice here!

Love these explanation videos. So informative.

I got a a MASSIVE head....so I guess I need to sit on a pannier rack!!! 😭

Another video that totally changes my understanding. I've got very long femurs and a short torso. Was fitted twice and both had a lot of saddle setback. I'd done the usual balance tests but never took it far enough. Now after watching this I wondered just how forward I could get and still not have a bunch of weight on my hands. The answer was all the way forward with an inline post.

Coming from a MTB background for several years prior to getting a road bike, I immediately felt more "natural" with a good amount of saddle set-back. Realized within the first few rides that my initial saddle height was a bit too high; once I took care of that, I've been very comfortable on the bike.

That is a genius tip to measure saddle setback! Cant believe I never thought of that. I need to get that right on my track bike's tt position to be within the uci rules. Same with the extensions. Definitely going to be using that when I'm next playing around with my position. I'd love to have a fit with James, but being in Dublin and covid (and a broke student ha) is putting a pause on that.

Thank you for your channel, BFT & other content simply the best IMO 👌, def my desert island content

Watched your video on shoes. Happened to have a pair of lake cx302s I’d bought but never used because I loved the look of my Victoria retro lace ups. Decided to put some cleats on and give the lakes a go. Revelation. 1.2 km/h increase in average speed in 1 ride. No knee hamstring or ITB pain ~ I have some rugby induced knee injuries from 30 years ago. Still on the zero pedals though. Can’t yet justify the $1000 to go to spd’s. Thanks so much.

I’d love to get a fit with this guy but being I live in Texas and I’m now over 70, I don’t see that happening 😂 Great information and I really like his explanations and presentation

The man knows his stuff!

Good summary! Cheers guys.

_Furthermore_ , this was extremely informative - thank y'all! 😇

I've been struggling with this a lot. Thanks to James' videos I've lowered my seat a bit, set my tilt to almost neutral, raised my brake levers a bit and got a shorter stem, my bike feels lovely now but I can't get my seat aft/fore right. I'm a 5ft9 170 lbs male using an L sized frame (mistake, I know) and I have short legs. I've found that setting the seat at the middle makes me overuse my hamstrings, and too far forward kills my quads, so I guess I'll get a proper bike fit soon. My seatpost has that backwards position thing going on too, it's not straight or neutral, which I guess I don't need in a long frame to begin with. It's challenging.

Absolutely obsessed w your Bike Fit Tuesday vids since I’m shopping a new pair of shoes (giving the Lakes a shot) and looking for a new bike for my wife. 1 correction to how to measure the seat set back. You need 3 things, you forgot to include the “wall” 😊. Keep up the good work.

I always like this segment, Bones and Beard.

So far, during watching bike fit Tuesdays, I’ve had colleagues hear and ask if I was listening to bike info from 1) Thor and 2) Boris Johnson. I thought James might find at least one of those a compliment 😉

very helpful video for my short torso. thanks

Awesome Information! Can you do a video on how to level a saddle? I know that there are different types of saddles but it would be great to hear where is your starting point

Any chance you could do a video on how to open the hips up with stretching and exercises? As someone over 35 and who sits at a desk all day I feel I need it.

Francis is a savage for the sausage dog clip!

When I got my bike I felt like I was being pushed too much in the back of the saddle, so I set my saddle almost all the way back. When I got some trouble in the back of my knee, I put my saddle a little bit more forward, as it wasn't excessively high. It helped my knee. It's still more to the back though, maybe because I'm on the heavier side, so don't want my weight too much on the front.

Super tip at the end of the video. thx!

Great vlog, like James watch 👍

I have adjusted setback and trialed varying setbacks, with each setback tested on climbs, flat sprints etc. For each noting what feels good.. On average my body type seems to like 80-90mm. During these trials I left the reach and bar to seat drop constant. While it's not scientific, this has worked for me on several bikes.

Thank you for the info about setback. I’ve got short torso and long legs and arms, and I find I feel best when my saddle is as far forward as possible. I need to try a zero setback seatpost!

Hello Francis, TUESDAY WEEK!!

Tnx for the tip Francis and James...

I had mine too far back and definitely felt a lack of power which was especially noticeable when pedaling away from a stop. Scooting forward a bit gave me the powerful stroke feeling back, and I think will be easier on my knees too.

Great content!

Furthermore... Great video as always!

Great content on the "Bikefit Tuesdays" series! I would like to know what are James' thoughts on those flared gravel drop handlebars

I'm an Engineer and a maker and I was thinking of building a small setup with a side-facing (to me on my bike on the turbo obviously) camera which allows me to draw angles over footage of myself cycling such that I can at least get an ok basic fit in when I buy a new bike. Seeing as many (non-flexibility related) issues result from improper saddle height and (to a lesser extent) reach, this may at least be a good starting point I reckon. Then, if I experience other problems (which will inevitably arise because I'm not considering left-right imbalance and no human being is perfectly symmetrical) I can go to a proper bike fitter and spend much more time on dialling in a much better fit because I'm likely to already be within most basic fit windows.

Bernard Hinault famously described the feeling of his hands on the bars as like “playing the piano”, that is, just floating on the tops when pedalling moderately hard. I use that to determine the perfect weight distribution, hence the perfect fore and aft. I totally disregard KOPS, but I’m not far off from it.

Very interesting. Very very interesting. Lot to process there. Extra points for slicing in the sausage dog, Fight Club style.

great way of measure saddle seatback

Thanks for all of these bike fit videos and the information in them. Now I'm going to drink a Long Island Iced Tea and I'll have one for you gents too. 🍻🥂🍻🥂🤪

Very informative video...as are all your videos. After riding in basically the same position for over 30 years I started to develop neck and shoulder pain this year as well it feeling as though my pedaling efficiency suffering a bit. The position I had adopted back in the late 80's/early 90's was based on the Greg LeMond philosophy of bike setup...stretched out, saddle pushed way back, wide bars, etc. That position worked very well for me for a very long time. Being 30+ years older now, I realized that it's pretty ridiculous to think that I can still ride efficiently in that same position. So I'm thinking of moving my saddle forward and most likely up a bit. You mention a 1 to 3 ratio of this relationship. Which way does it work? My thought is that for every 3mm you move forward, you move the saddle up 1mm. Is that correct? Any comment on my overall thinking here? Thanks!

Pulled my SPD cleat to back of shoe amazing difference 🙏

I found if the seat was too far back ( i e when it slipped) I would get soreness around the perimeter of my kneecaps. I just put that out there for someone who has experienced that type of pain and is looking for an option to try for relief. I have been chasing the perfect fit for thirty years of racing as riding and found the perfect fit is a bit dynamic.

I always half expect James to break into Tommy Cooper when he's explaining things. Just like that. 😆 That said I could listen to his knowledge all day

Lovely content! I do have a question. The torso to force application direction angle has a narrow range for maximum force production. This fact does not allow one to choose any saddle fore-aft for a given aerodynamic position. In my experience, the body will try to preserve this relation ( torso to force application direction angle ) as much as possible. The further back the saddle, the hips have to rotate backwards to maintain this relation ( otherwise the foot will get too far ahead of the optimal point ). The further we rotate the hips back, the less aerodynamic we get. The TT bike demonstrates this fact quite well. Appears that we have to compromise between aerodynamics vs weight on hands. For a new bike, wouldn't be better to choose one that allows the rider to be aerodynamic with not too much weight on the hands? So the balance/weight on hands test would just be a indication that the bike is the correct size? ( Imagine a too small bike, no matter how far back the saddle is put there will still be too much weight on hands to be comfortable, even after adjusting the reach ).

Interesting stuff! As a tall guy with really long legs/short torso (but still quite a lot of upper body weight), I feel a little better now about having mine at the furthest forward point of the limit of the saddle rails. Didn’t know about the different seatposts, but now I’ve looked mine comes with probably a 20mm setback, so might try to find an inline post! Please keep doing these!

Why is this a Francis Channel and not a James Channel?

I was just wondering about this yesterday 😳

Helpful vid, thanks. If I find myself moving to the very back of the saddle frequently, would that indicate I may want to move it back a bit?

I moved my saddle back a bit to give me more room to slide off and put a foot down at traffic stops. My body just feels comfortable when I can put a foot down next to or just slightly ahead of the bb, and the saddle kept getting in the way of it!

You should have the saddle as far forward as you can tolerate before too much pressure on your hands, and you should keep your cleats all the way back.

This was nice 👍

What about the issue with muscle strain (thighs vs hams)? Too far back, sore hams. Too far forward, sore thighs.

I'm 6'4 on a 60cm cyclocross bike that I use for gravel and road biking... they have slightly different geometry from a strict road bike... I find myself never being able to find a true/perfect position. I'd say my limb lengths, torso lengths are all proportionate (in other words, I'm not 6'4 with long arms/legs short torso, or short legs long torso... I'm proportionate). In order to get full leg extension... I extend my seat post fully at its limit. Maybe 1cm passed it actually. Not only that, but I have to slide my saddle all the way back for a bit more leg extension, and reach (Since if I keep the saddle neutral or forward, I feel cramped up front). I even have a 110mm long stem. The position this puts me in.. gives me a feeling of kicking forward while my femur bones are too close to my torso (which doesn't allow me to put out as much power... although it puts me in a more aero position). Issue is... If I shorten the stem... I'm cramped. If I slide seat foward... I'm cramped. If I slide seat post down... legs don't get extension. I think I've come to the conclusion that my frame just isn't enough for me... Gotta go full road bike, maybe a 61cm. Thoughts from anyone? Looking for all the ideas I can get...

Thank you Francis, James! Very useful information. May I ask/request episode regarding bike sizing tips? What I mean- I’m 182cm with 86cm inseam(as far as I can understand- short legs, long back AKA sausage as James sad) but running 56 size frame and feel a bit stretched, in one previous video James sad that he runs 53 size frame, can he explain a bit more about it? Thank

I found that putting the saddle further forward improved power per heartrate. I ride a giant contend ar size L which definitely is on the smallish side- I’m 193cm tall with short legs and long neck and torso. I feel that giant seat angles just are very slack.

I have anterior pelvic tilt and its a real bastard to find a good comfy set up

Hey Francis! Would be cool to know how someone becomes a bikefitter, and even more: how to become a good one. There are more and more people fitting bikes & it's difficult to have a way to find a good one without spending 200+ euro's on a failed fit.

I don't believe it can be said better. And guys who care about their fit on their bicycles, if you want to achieve 'your' best fit and performance on a bicycle, there is no formula or short cut. In fact, even visiting someone as knowledgeable as James will not get you to the top because each of us only know our own bodies. Dogged trial and error. Almost all don't follow this advice but the only way to know what works best. James didn't touch on the following but also worth mentioning. Saddle to bar drop affects amount of setback you can or can't run which affects hip impingement and of course relates to crankarm length as well. A multi-variant puzzle. To me, it takes years to find a best fit on a bicycle. For those...even tallish riders like me, try shorter cranks if you want a higher RPM, smooth pedal stroke for good sustained power. Owning different bicycles and setting them up differently helps accelerate the process of determining what works best. I am now an old, fit cyclist after decades of experimentation. I am a tallish, longer of leg and run a bit less setback, shorter cranks and not much saddle to handlebar drop to promote an unfettered pedal stroke. Because I am still fit and not overweight, I am not plussed by how much weight I carry on my hands. Lack of hip impingement is more important. I use the drops a lot and can still get my back down but not as much as a younger, more flexible rider who can tolerate more setback resulting in less weight on the hands. Finding Goldilocks is the goal. No substitute for trial and error. A sidebar many don't consider is, the stronger the cyclist you are, the more force you apply to the pedals with each pedal stroke which naturally reduces weight on the hands which allows a bit less setback. There is synergy between strength of a rider and the position they can sustain on the bike. This is why a good cyclist is typically more sore when riding with the wife at 12mph on your roadbike because there is more weight on your hands due to reduced pedal force. People talk about watts all the time but watts can be correlated to pedal force. Watts aka Power = Torque X RPM....Torque = Pedal Force X Crankarm Length. Therefore at a given cadence, the more force you apply to the pedals, the greater power you generate which naturally unweights both hand pressure and saddle pressure...why hard to stay seated at full sprint pulling UP on the handlebar.

As usual, great info! I have a question that is maybe not 100% related, but still :) Assuming a perfect bike fit, can a general lack of (terminal) knee extension cause anterior knee pain and quad when cycling? My thinking is that instead of pedalling, its more stamping down on the pedals. Same as with walking, the lack of terminal knee extension causes the patella to take much more of the load. I know that the knee extension angle is locked in on the bike, but in your head you can still pedal differently. I hope it makes sense :)

Measuring setback from the wall with a tape measure is genius! Way easier than fiddling with plumb bobs... ;-)

My rule of thumb is if I feel I am having to shuffle myself forward on the saddle as I feel my bum is hanging too much off the back then I need to put the saddle back a bit. If I feel that I am constantly having to shuffle backwards as I am feeling too much on the nose, I need to put the saddle forward a bit. It's all a bit trial and error in my experience. My current bike has a 20mm setback post on it (replaced the original in line post as I had the saddle on the max aft and still felt like I was hanging off the back of the saddle). I have quite long legs and a short torso.

Got a question about moving cleats and saddle setback: if you put the cleats towards the mid-foot, should you move the saddle to compensate? Understood that it will need to go down a bit as well.

Love James. Eerrrrrrr yes I do eeeerrrr further more eeeeerrrrrrrrrr top bloke

is it bike fit everyday on the channel now! loving it

As somebody with a massive head who gravitates towards pushing the seat back, I feel validated.

Hey Francis wondering if you could tell me what bike fitting course / system James got trained on?

My head was spiralling with questions on this and James was ticking them of as if he were a little chainlink in my mind

This guy is making me want to buy an SKX007 again :-D

Video on setting saddles level, sounds simple but with all the different contours were should you take the level from.

Bahahah. You missed out on.the Tyler Durden little circle top right of the screen! Brilliant. 😂🤣

Short torso/longish legs here. Guess I’m shopping for a zero setback seatpost. Already running 70mm headset with +35 degree rise to help with reach issues.

Been messing with the saddle setback and reach . . . but the real test is in the ride. When powering the bike at different levels, your back and arms will stretch and your butt will find its natural position, and you can tell if you are falling off the back of the seat (too far forward) and can adjust accordingly for making the seat a comfortable pivot point. When you coast, your butt will come forward and more weight on the hands . . . that is another 'feel' of the seat and more weight into your genitals, so that also indicates the ideal setback position to get the horn from digging into your crotch.

Love James's view on the bike fitting world, out of interest what's his views on tilted in levers from a comfort side not the "aero"

Just curious if BikeFitJames would be interested in doing a State of the Watch Collection video. It seems like he is a watch hound and has some good looking timepieces. I love these bike fit videos. They have helped me dial in my position on my bike over the past month. I am doing a pro bike fit next month. Unfortunately, I already have a bunch of bikes so it is too late for the recommended "fit first, buy later" approach. I will be buying a long distance touring bike soon so all the data I get from the fit session will help me order and buy the right damn bike! --Michael

I learned the wall trick back in 2004, by frame builder Bill Holland.

So ultimately, what is trying to be achieved with this adjustment when done by a bike fitter? Comfort? Efficiency? If efficiency, how would the most efficient setback be determined?

How about the Steve Hogg balance test on Setting the Saddle set back ??

Having a drinking game, drink for every "furthermore" during Bike Fit Tuesdays. Everyone blacked out

This may be a dumb question but why is my Ergon SR Pro (road) so much more comfortable than my SM Pro ( mountain) in the same size? I spend so much more time seated on the road bike and far less on the mountain bike but I’ve come to really hate my MTB saddle and love the same version on my road bike. Is it…ok? to ride a road saddle on my mtb or is that a big no no??

Just have a bike fit with James, simple. 🚴‍♂️👍

Slide it back allll de wayy. Like a ganster.