Scale Positions for Guitar - The 3 most Important Systems 

You can download PDFs for the scales and a lot of arpeggios etc here: jenslarsen.nl/pdf-downloads-charts/ Content: 0:00 Intro and Internet Drama 1:05 Who needs scales anyway? 1:25 My Home Made Blues Scale Position 2:10 Learning Improvisation and 5 Scale Positions 2:38 Needing a System and Finding one 3:40 #1 - 7 Position System 5:30 Conservatory Technique and not learning 3NPS 5:52 Learning to play fast with John Petrucci 6:48 #2 - 3NPS (3 Notes Per String) 8:12 How I know the CAGED SYSTEM 8:40 #3 The CAGED System 9:48 Comparing the systems 10:22 The 7 Position systems and a few issues 10:42 Stretches and Position Shifts 12:10 Hidden Stretches in The CAGED system 13:11 The CAGED Scales and The Basic Chords & Arpeggios 14:02 What System do you use? Did I get something wrong? 14:21 Like the video? Check out my Patreon Page!

'I had a teacher at the conservatory, he used 3 notes per string, I didn't have any faith in him or his playing'. 😂😂😂 Damn Jens, just telling it like it is. 👍

The pattern at 6:53 is a type 1A fingering in the "Modern method for guitar"(Berklee Methods). 4 basic fingerings (book 1 and 2) are developed by fingerstrechning to a final stage where you have 12 fingerings along the neck for each key (at book 3). Learned this in the seventees to get rid of the fingering problem. Hard work to learn but Recommended.

I originally learned the 7 position system which I refer to as “ modal” which can be played either closed or open. I later also learned the caged system which I found helped me to visualize the fretboard better and see where my chord tones are. Eventually everything merged into one fretboard where I was free from thinking of positions which I think is the ultimate goal.

Great overview of the main scalar concepts, I appreciate your work. But I think that there is a mistake in the 6th position of a 7 position system - it's Bb there on the 5th string, but should be B natural, I suppose)

CAGED cuz it’s really connecting the chord and arpeggio shape very easily!! And the diatonic scale connects with pentatonic well!

Nice video, with a good overview over some of the different ways to visualise scales on the guitar :-) I myself started with the 7-position system, then when I was 17 years old and wanted to shred like Petrucci (got a hold on Rock Dicipline in high school;-) ) and Michal Romeo I adopted the three notes per string system :-P When i started the jazz conservatory though I learned the CAGED system, and I think the main point of this system isn't that you don't have to stretch your fingers, but that you visualise the chords and the scale at the same time. I found that really helpful when learning jazz, both for playing arpeggios, and especially when I want to comp myself when i solo. I use all three systems still, but mainly I use a combination of CAGED for lines with a lot of arpeggios and chords, and three notes per string for faster frases. Now I'm working on the four notes pr string system, that I see for example Kurt Rosenwinkel using a lot to get his long fluid lines all over neck board :-)

This is another extremely informative and helpful video. I'm returning to the guitar after more than a decade, and I've really only known the blues, country and classic rock approach to scales, and have been dying to find exactly this kind of information presented in a manner that was accessible for me. Thank you SO much!

Now where are the Tabs? 😂 Just kidding. Excellent video. I like how you explain the advantages and drawbacks of the different systems.

I know the CAGED system, the 7 position 3NPS system and the 5 position system. And i basically use all of them in different situations. I like the CAGED system because it layed out the neck in a way that made it easy to understand and know where i am at all times. I also use the CAGED system for chords, triads, and their inversions. CAGED system really made it easy to see all the triads and inversions on the neck. However, when i practice my scales, i almost always use the 7 positon 3 NPS. I find this system with the 3 NPS much easier to economy pick and alternate pick for obvious reasons. But i also know the closed scale shapes also, so when i am improvising it is easier for me to see all the notes of a given scale laid out for me.

Great overview! The 7 position system is outlined in A Modern Method for Guitar (Vol. 1, 2 and 3) by William Leavitt published by Berklee Press. This is the first time I've ever seen anyone mention it. Everyone always seems to favour 3nps or Caged. My guitar teacher in the 80's used that series as the workbooks for my lessons. ☺

Love these videos - I'm getting a lot out of them. One thing to note re this one however is that the diagrams of the CAGED system are have errors. Well 2 of them are ..... the ones for the A shape and D shape. In both cases what should be a B is shown as a Bb.

The fact that you only started studying scales and jazz when you were 20 is honestly the most inspiring thing i have heard (I am 20 and beginning my jazz journey after years of pentatonic scale noodling)

I have been playing guitar as a hobby all my adult life - mostly jazz but some classical. Now that I'm 80, making more than 4-fret stretches is very difficult because of arthritis. For chord melody and comping I find that triads are very useful for ease of fingering. Mostly I use shell triads, e.g., F, B & G for G7, D, C & F for Dm7, E, C & G for Am7, etc., plus diminished chords for connection (ala Barry Harris.) Using triads thusly, allows for faster execution of changes with less stretching.

Hi Jens. The 7 position system really isn't discussed enough. Honestly this is the only video I've ever seen it mentioned and shown with these exact fingerings anywhere on RU-vid. It's the one I've always used to show students first. I first learned it from the Modern Method for Guitar volumes. My parents bought them for me when they went to Boston back around 1977. Best souvenir from Boston they could have possibly got for me! God bless them!😇✨💫

My guitar journey was basically strummed triads -> pentatonic lead -> diatonic lead, so it was CAGED for the pentatonics from the chord shapes, then I learned the full major scales for those 5 positions. I think especially for triad-heavy music, it's a good framework. I saw someone doing 3nps and picked it up, and I find it much easier for nimble scale sections. I like that I have some new forms and some modifications of old forms. I'll try the 7 position versions. I think it's more worthwhile to just know them all. At a certain point, there's only one fretboard, so they all have to be true.

I play sax and watch your videos basically for fun and general info and I've watched this one before. After a 30 year break I got a guitar again a month ago, pretty much for harmonic background stuff, and now really see the value of this vlog. You have a knack of going straight to the centre of a topic. Once again, thanks Jens, a fantastic video.

First video I've seen that talks and breaks down the 3 approaches. I've used your "7 note Berkeley" system but have also struggled to "shred" and your observation re: 3NPS on consistent right hand makes me want to practice it more (though I have small hands). I typically think about the fretboard as a 4 string "common" pattern and a 2 string "modifiable" pattern where I can start anywhere by knowing the scale tones of the pattern (adjusted for the G-B 3rd interval). I hope this makes sense.

Thanks Jens. I love your teaching style. I find that I use a "hybrid" system. Depending on what I am playing I switch between scale forms

"...saxophone players don't have this, and they can play jazz just fine"

I started on piano (adult, selfstudy, jazz focus), so I know my scales pretty well. I bought a guitar on a whim, to expand my „musical horizon“. When I was trying out playing melodies on guitar, the caged system didn‘t really stick. It helped me understand playing chords all over the fretboard, but made melodies really confusing. So I quickly gave up on melodies and stuck to playing chords. Just recently I wanted to practice playing some real book melodies again and by chance found your berklee 7 position system pdf on google images, when I was searching for a system for major scales on guitar. It makes a lot of sense for me and I love it. As somebody with a big love for music theory, the berklee 7th position system just resonates well. Thank you by introducing me to this system, even though it was just by chance! I’ve been watching your channel even before finding the berklee 7th position pdf and it has been a great help. My favorite channel when it comes to music theory + guitar playing.

I see something similar to your 7-position system in "The Art of Playing Rock Guitar" by Richard Daniels. Don't know if it's an exact match or not.

I tend to start out with a pentatonic pattern and fill in notes because I learned how to play blues. I learned this after learning tons of scale patterns on the guitar but not really listening. Then my ear woke up. I use pentatonics almost like a "shell".....just like chords. they have the important notes of the triad, major or minor. Add more notes and you find what key you are really in. It's my own cheezy system but it works for me. I can find melodies pretty quick that way. Now that I am trying to improve my improvisation skills, I am trying to see the notes of the chord more. Some of the coolest licks are from horn players who will approach the chord tones from a half step below and things like that. But, in my simple mind, it all starts with the blues and basically adding more notes.

In an emergency I sometimes use one string and visualise the piano white keys with the groups of 2 and 3 black notes/gaps along one string.

You and I had the exact same stages of development in our understanding of scales. It's comforting

One observation about 3NPS, Leavitt, and CAGED system scales is that 3NPS has the most stretches (18) and CAGED the fewest (2), with Leavitt in the middle (8). There are some advantages to having fewer stretches in that arpeggios are easier (requiring fewer stretches), and chromatic notes at the edges of the boxes are more available. These are important considerations, especially for those with smaller hands! :)

Jens, thank you for this! I've always been a mix up of the 7 Pos and the CAGED player, but now I'm working on 3NPS. BTW, I'd just like to point out a small error in the graphic at the 7:34 mark: the scale fingering that starts at the 10th fret shows the 6th note being played at fret 13 when it should be fret 14 (B natural and not a Bb). For anyone who might have been confused. Cheers!

Thank you for this video, it has helped me a lot with visualizing the fretboard. One mistake I've seen in the shape diagrams, in the 7 position system and the 3nps one, the 2nd position (the penultimate diagram from top to bottom) there is a wrong note. There is a B flat instead of a B natural

I had once told by my friend (he's a great guitarist) that to train scales and its positions, I must try to play a scale as if drawing a mobius strip across the fretboard (e.g. if I start from 1st string in 1-4th fret area, I go forward to 12th fret area while going up to 6th string. once at the 6th string & 12-15th fret area, I go down to 1st string, and go backwards to 1st fret while slowly going up to 6th string, and so on). what's your opinion, Jens?

The fretboard is a nightmare. People speaks badly about 3NPS being a method for metal, but I find it the easiest method avaliable.

Thank you for the video! I find it really helpful that you show pros and cons of different systems. How did you decide in each pattern of the 7 pattern system if you want to play the 2 notes on the 3rd or 2nd string?

The effective rule for the CAGED system is that you never have a minor second interval from one string to another. All the minor second intervals are made in the same string. I think the CAGED system is the DNA of the guitar for the standard tuning. And also is good to divide the register in only five portions. And sure the three note system is also very effective. I use a lot the two but I teach alway first the CAGED system. Thanks for the videos

Are these positions more important for learning the fingerboard or for actually improvising? Watching videos of Wes, he usually seems to play in diagonal patterns.

I also learned how to play using the 7 scale shapes, you can also increase it to 12 positions but I believe it kinda pointless. in general I don't even use the 7 scale shapes, I just try to visualize the whole fret-board and play accordingly to chords shapes I come across. great video though made me kinda think about my approach in general and maybe mix it up really. cheers.

I have a french chords book with series of scale at the end, it gives 2 versions for each position ; "avec démanché" -> stretched 3NPS and "sans démanché" -> same scale without stretching, the same way you showed ! Can't find any other name for that :/

7 position system is what I had been looking for. Thank you!!

I started out with 3NPS position system, but always thought about it as 7 Position (7P), as I started off learning these as the modes. When I studied at GIT, I learned about the CAGED model. Agree with all your comments on 3NPS. At this point, I don't even think about it any more. I shift seamlessly between the different shapes, but that took time to lock in. Not the logical view of things, but understanding the sounds. I don't have the limitations on fingerings that I did as a younger player. It's much more fluid now. I attribute a lot of that to developing my ability to work with melodies. I don't think I can emphasize that enough, as it helps get transcend "finger patterns" and focus on *music*. Additionally, I got in the habit of using 7P to analyze chord shapes and think through different options for constructing them. Working the harmonized major scale in a single position is a good exercise to do with this, as well as playing through the cycle of fifths in a single position. Finally, I find that considering 7P is a great tool for sight reading -- especially if you're reading in signatures that you don't use that often and might not know the neck all that well. Yes, it's a bit of a crutch, but it gives you options for reading that you may not have had before. I think one of the biggest benefits is more efficient handling of accidentals. Instead of having weak readers "hunt and peck" for the right note, they can target the fingering and then deal with the difference for that measure. It's not perfect, but it has helped me :-P Great discussion topic and commentary, sir! Thank you :-)

Hi, Jens, first of all thank you for your videos and your inspiration. My mastery lies in the classical guitar and during the last 10 years fingerstyle and flatpicking on the steel string - jazz has always been a side issue for me, but due to my looper compositions and the freedom to improvise, I have been able to take the fretboard anew in recent years. I get along very well with the structures of the CAGED system, which I also use very often - also as a methodology in my lessons: 1. I have the pentatonics inside 2. the Bluesscale 3. can derive major and minor scales and also modes from them 4. can first add individual option tones to the pentatonics, which 1. did not overwhelm me at the beginning and 2. also gives my students digestible morsels 5. I can play all arpeggios of different chords well, three voices, major, minor, augmented (is it the right english word? i'm not sure right now...) and diminished, add option tones (like melodic patterns, Jan-Hammer-Scale, etc.) or with options like 7, 9, 11, 13 6. the positions can be combined very well, especially in pentatonics, and we find this kind of view on the fretboard with a lot of "reference" guitarists from the blues and rock area. No matter if B.B.King, Albert King, Eric Clapton, Santana, Ritchie Blackmore, Jimmy Page, Jimi Hendrix, Jeff Beck, Mark Knopfler, Mike Oldfield, Andy Summers, Randy Rhodes, Joe Satriani, Steve Vai, Paul Gilbert, .............in all of them you will often find these structures in the solos - so if you want to play rock or pop, I think the CAGED system is the right choice for you. 7. I also use 3-notes-per-string, but rather for special applications. As you said before: this concept is especially good for the right hand because of its symmetry and is also very clear in other ways.Some fingerings are especially well suited and I use them for very fast sequence runs within a rock solo or I like to use sequences on 2 strings to move horizontally up or down the fretboard on b and e for example. 8. the 7-position concept is coherent, but due to the permanent stretching on a spanish guitar or a steel string it is no pleasure and for me it is too theoretical for the music I listen to or I play myself and seems to me not as practical as the above concepts. So much for my modest and constantly growing insights into the fretboard :-) Thank you, many greetings, Peter

there is a Bb in you diagram on the 6th position of C major scale around 4:00..don't know if you saw it :))

This 7 position system is an abbreviated form of Bill Leavitt's 12 position system. This is detailed in his A Modern Method for Guitar (Berklee Press) book series. I'm not sure if it originates with him but I don't have an earlier reference. Like most of these things it's probably as old as the guitar itself. :)

Mr. Larsen, I am a 2000 graduate of Musician's Institute's GIT school in Los Angeles. I have been playing guitar for about 26 years. The purpose of this post is to discuss a four note per string system. At GIT, we were taught the CAGED and 3 note per string system. Paul Gilbert is the most famous graduate of the school, and so much of its curriculum, especially for rock and metal players, closely follows the way he plays guitar, with a heavy emphasis on alternate picking, clean technique, and modal playing. Other players have had long lasting influence there as well, such as Keith Wyatt's method of blues guitar instruction and Dan Gilbert's style of jazz fusion. Danny Gill of Lick Library is also one of my favorite teachers and a friend of mine. Danny knew Paul Gilbert when Paul was at the school in 1984. In 2000, I had the pleasure of briefly meeting Mike Stern during a clinic he was offering at GIT. His advice? Be able to locate chord tones and intervals. I have also taken lessons with jazz guitarist Cary DiNigris, when I learned something similar to shell voicings and dropping the 5th as an unnecessary note. I am less familiar with the Berklee method of instruction, which to me is more jazz oriented. For example, I did not know what "drop 2" meant until I watched your videos. I started watching your videos a few months ago as a way to see the guitar neck more like a jazz player, with emphasis on improvisation, tension, resolution, passing tones, and non-diatonic playing. Your lessons have helped me very much. Thank you. Unless I skipped over it, I did not see you mention a 4 note per string scale system in your video. I thought you might have tried this since, in my experience, jazz guitarists tend to see the neck linearly/horizontally, while rock, metal, and blues players tend to see the guitar neck vertically across strings, probably in order to facilitate fast pentatonic bending licks within box shapes. I am experimenting with a four note per string system. I think it has the following advantages. 1) It encourages the box-based player to see horizontally along the neck. 2) It makes switching between strings easier than 3 notes per string because notes are grouped in 4s instead of 3s. 3) It makes spotting intervals across wide intervallic gaps easier. 4) It trains the guitarist to use all four fingers. 5) It has positions that are more anatomically suited to the human hand than some CAGED positions, especially C and G, which are less used than the E, A, and D forms. I like CAGED because it breaks the neck down into manageable spaces that fit in neatly with pentatonic minor box shapes. However, when I go into legato playing, I shift to 3 (and ultimately 4) notes per string mode. CAGED also makes the teaching of barre chords much easier. Scales, barre chords, and arpeggios are all tightly integrated with CAGED. However, it tends to limit the guitarist by making one see the guitar neck as shapes instead of intervals. I am still working on improving being able to quickly identify intervallic relationships regardless of shape, whether above or below the root note. I am also working on trying to play everything I can within a 5 to 7 fret space on the guitar so I can minimize unnecessary movement. Compositionally, now I am more interested in chord melody, counterpoint, voice leading with chord extensions, inversions, secondary dominants, flat 5 substitutions, the relationship between diminished and 7th chords, and other advanced topics such as those covered in your lessons. Again, thank you very much for your work, and if you have thoughts on four notes per string from a jazz player's perspective, I would love to see a video on them. Aaron

I'm least conversant in CAGE. I mostly use 3NPS. I like the natural upward movement of it. The Berklee method was always good for picking out the arpeggios for me though.

The “7 position system” is what they taught me at Berklee. It was just called “the scales I need to learn this semester” lol

This has been very interesting to watch: I had not known about multiple systems competing for the status of being the best way of partitioning the fingerboard into positions. I have always looked at it like this: for any scale, the ultimate challenge is to master the fingerboard as one continuous whole. Because that is a daunting task, it is pedagogically beneficial to begin by breaking it up into chunks called positions. Positions are like looking at the parts of the fingerboard through a small window. I like to distinguish between two essential window shapes: (1) a standard 5-fret shape: in this shape, if you play the chromatic scale ascending, you would not play the 5th fret on the G-string as that would double the note on the 1st fret on the B-string; so there’s a gap there; or (2) alternatively you may play up to the 5th fret on the G-string and continue on frets 2-to-6 on both the B and the E strings; this gives you a 6-fret shape with a slight position shift for these two strings at the top (or - phycally/vertically - bottom). You may shift these windows so that they can start at any of the 12 frets. Here’s an image that displays all the possible (2 x 12 = 24) one-position fingerings for the major (Ionian) scale. drive.google.com/file/d/1gk6W9D8se5Qgz_ZpcqHNrDcks2-rkEuw/view?usp=sharing One may decide to practice them all before moving on to connecting neighbouring positions, but most guitarists pick their favourites based on preferences detailed in this video. You really need no more than about 7 or so positions. Some of them feel very natural immediately because all or most notes fit into the one-finger-one-fret scheme; so those positions are well-known and taught as standard material. With other options, the pros and cons are difficult to weigh in an objective manner, and that is why guitar methods differ in their recommendations. When learning a fingering pattern, in addition to where the root and other notes fall, I think it is also essential to learn which particular notes the individual dots correspond to. I actually think it is easier to learn scales that way, as it gives meaning to the patterns.

There is a mistake on 5th string on the second to last diagrams. Should be B natural and not B flat. I played through all the diagrams and I found 3NPS to be easier to understand.

I've never come across the 7 position system before. Seems very interesting, I'm currently working on internalizing CAGED and have previously only really worked from the five positions of the pentatonic minor. So much to learn :-)

3nps sounds interesting. I have big hands, so I don't need the "advantages" of caged. And I don't want to play country or classic rock, either. Thanks!

I am practicing scales over the chord tone arpeggios I already know, which I think is very similar with the CAGED system!😆 By the way, do you think when practicing scales (lets say for example a D Mixolydian b9 b13) one should be able to visualize the scale which it derived from(G Harmonic minor) simultaneously? Thanks for the great videos! They really help me alot!

All the different scale systems drive me crazy. Early on I was taught the Berklee method since my teacher, like yours was a Berklee graduate. I've also used Segovia's method for three octive scales when I was playing classical. Jody Foster has a system as such: 6/1, 5/1; 6/2, 5/2 and 6/4, 5/4. 6 and 5 being the string, 1, 2 and 4 being the finger used on that string to start the scale. It appears to be similar to the 7 position 3 NPS and 7PS. I hate finger stretches so I'll give the CAGED a try. Barry Greene also has a modified scale system which he uses. Good grief!

Has no one told you there are several errors in your graphics? For example, at 9:25 -- that chart is wrong, but what you play is correct. But that's not the only mistake. Usually it is that your chart shows one of the B notes as a B♭. About your question -- I learned to play in every key in open position -- using as many open strings as possible, then I moved those patterns to closed positions. You pick up a few interesting little tricks like the patterns for G and A♭ differ slightly, same for F and F♯. D and E♭. The patterns for C and C♯ (or D♭) are the same. So that gives us 12 patterns for playing diatonic scales in position. Then I work mostly with those that have two notes on the G string and 3 notes on all other strings. In the cases where you have two notes on the B string, I would change that so that the highest note on the G string is played instead on the B string. When played in open position, exactly one scale has two notes on the B string: F major. I use the F♯ pattern instead of the F pattern and thereby get two notes on the G string and three on the B string. That said, I came here because I"m trying to decide what is truly the best way to deal with these issues. I have more ideas that I'm not going to write down right now. Thanks!

I did a light music bridging course at technikon over twenty years. My guitar teacher was a flamenco guitarist (still is) 'Demi Fernandez'. This scale shape is one of the first things he taught us. I think the course was a Berklee thing. I only completed 6 months and left.

The 7-position system is quite similar to the one I learnt from the Leavitt method, that also considers the middle finger as a 'position indicator'. CAGED: for scales I always had it named "position playing", where you have at some point 2 notes instead of 3 on a string, otherwise the position shifts... Other systems I came up/discovered over the years: - 2 notes per string: allows the fretting hand to move back on the neck - 4 notes per string: adding a slide on the half steps, you can move the fretting hand up the neck, and play long scales, keeping (loosely) some consistency and logic in hand movement I lately, came up with another one, useful for playing modes, especially with minor scales: - 4+3 / 3+4 notes per string: a mix of 3 and 4 notes per string. This has the advantage of repeating the same unique pattern for any mode, on different sets of 2 strings. Works the same with bebop scales (but then it becomes a 4 notes per string variation) I'm sure these are no new things, and I kind of reinvented the wheel... but it's part of internalizing and 'owning' the scales, rather than copying dots on paper... I'll be happy to discuss it if you will...

If you watch listen and teach these lessons you become an amazing instructor and a better musician! He has a practical patterns and methods of how to “solo”, choose voicings, and vocabulary to express yourself. Super excellent!

It was so clarifying Thank you! I guess, the 7 position sys. is great for direct reading and more related to chord position.

Hi Jens! All these fingering-visual systems are the same if you see the steps and trichords (M,m,h) on the fingerboard. There are even more than three - diagonal, one-string, two-string, four-note, two-note, and so on.

Funny coincidence I took lessons for 3 months to learn Major scale. Was taught CAGED. never dug it. I. Believe in 3NPS. Only thing I learned from caged. Is VOICINGS

What is you system for scale fingerings? Is there one you consider better and why? 🙂

Good discussion/comparison - thanks Jens. :) When did you change your Sheraton? Is that a 335 ... (I obviously don't pay much attention to gear ... :P) Cheers, Be well - K

I actually like to play traditional 3 note per string systems with a 2 notes per string distribution. It requires some moving around, but breaks the patterns and seems to unify the feel of 3 notes per string systems (mainly diatonic) and normal 2 notes per string stuff (mainly pentatonic). For me at least it opens up the guitar more ... I may also do 4 notes per string as two separate 2 notes per string movements ... same approach ...

I learned how to play guitar play playing by ear .. king crimson, elp, phish, Zappa.... somehow stumbled into being able to play. But now thirty years later I am going back and learning (correcting) bad habits... what he explain for the two note opposed to three note playing on a string is GOLD!!! IS NAME THE 7 note (the Larson Scale Grail) LSG LOL. !!!!

That 7 note system is interesting-- I managed to get something fairly similar by learning all the positions of the pentatonic and then overlaying the major scale (so like Cmaj over Amin) and then filling out the major tones absent from the pentatonic in all those positions

Nice lesson, Jens. I was introduced to the Segovia scales when my instructor handed me a thin book with the strict fingerings. I found it to be incredibly constricted and a poor way to understand moving through chord changes. Rather like simulating a conversation by reading a newspaper to a colleague. There is a Joe Pass lesson around RU-vid that really helped me think of chords as moving lines, but whether or not there is a system to it, I have no idea.

Jens...Ive been paying close attention to your videos for more than several months now...I've wasted so many years noodling around and essentially just practicing mistakes (so many systems etc) I suppose the C A G E D system is pretty much what I worked out on my own...but since I want to improvise jazz (and I also play sax)...I have spent a fair bit of time on diatonic harmony..1 3 5 7 9 11 13 ...2 4 6 8 10 etc etc (via working with the major scale so far..as a modal approach) and getting all the modes 1357 within 4 frets (I have smallish hands so often find i begin in BbM) One of the most helpful youtube lessons Ive found on scales is Philadelphia's own Jimmy Bruno's "white piano key major scale pattern" up and down the neck (its sort of a CAGED thingo...but not really) its quite easy to assimilate as moveable patterns as one soon not only sees..but also hears the intervals as modal shifts (its probably just the seven scale positions in 5 ?)...and also the 3 note per string stuff (as far as low E string tonic's (CM) its G Mixo at 3...Am at 5...Bm/CM at 7/8 ...D as Dorian 10...and PhrygianEm at 12...LydianF at 13...and as one soon works out...its "all the same pattern" up and down and across the strings (but only 5 positions G A BC D EF)...and like the wonderful JB points out... its all white keys (yet moveable) its been amazing (for me) as its so revealing of neck structure )...and now...to use your "3 most used jazz scales" within that knowledge (major(with the modal minors contained)... plus learning ..harmonic minor...melodic minor etc....well it surely reduces the workload (it actually eradicated tons of baggage) ...as its really the 1357...diatonic positions that "I need to hear" (ie MMm..mmM ..MmM etc etc)...and to comprehend as circle positions (in both directions simultaneously ) ...and also getting those patterns as finger memory...but mostly..it seems my main issue is hearing it "upside down" (as descending arpeggios)...thats been the real key for me...."hearing those diatonic 13579 11 13 shifts ...but going down the stairs (as interlocking/alternating overlaps)...or.. maybe one might say "reading backwards" ) that is the difference of jazz and blues (for me) or rock ...Jazz is about "moving thru" circles....seeing 251 etc....V of V etc (harmony rules).....where as Blues has that I IVV stuff ..as solid and rhythmic...far more stable etc) I generalise ...but yeah...no easy way to learn it.....just get to it...and do the work.. Jens your methodology has been extremely useful for me...Sax (unlike the guitar's horizontal options)...Sax being "vertical" is far easier to phrase...to quickly put sounds next to each other...and to accent and sustain etc.. )...and thats what is starting to happen for me on guitar now...point being...an absolute "shit tonne of stuff to be learned" right there in the middle 4 frets (5678) ...just thinking within BbMajor scale ..(one scale !) thank you so much Jens...that three string reduction exercise is very much on that same page....I cant wait to get onto those melodic minor patterns !!! Thanks again for your superb lessons...a real game changer !

It seems to me that the shredders choose to play scalar lines in order to make their alternate picking work. Rather than playing what they hear, and finding the fingering that works best. Sure, they play what they play fast, but that's because they just want to play SOMETINHING fast. No thanks. The CAGED system CAN be played keeping the fingers to four frets and moving one position back and forth, but you can also choose to anchor in the CAGED forms but also stretch to reach notes. It's just a matter of changing which finger you use to play the roots. I started out shifting one position between strings when necessary, but changed to staying in the same position always, but stretching to get the necessary notes. I did that to keep myself in the same position while playing through a V-I or ii-V-I or secondary dominants. So I can play Cm7-F7 Fm7-Bb7 Bbm7-Eb7 Ebm7-Ab7 Abm7-Db7 without moving position. Then I move up one fret and I've got Gb7 and start over. And of course, it just repeats up the neck.

Those long positions are from Berklee. They are often called "Leawitt", by the name of a famous teacher. In Berklee they build lion share of their programmes on jazz platform. Only God knows, why they use so crazy stretches, Mark White`s book which I`m drilling also features them... To sum up, if you wanna get that jazz background - go for Berklee books and get your finger for the smackdown. Imagine Dragon`s guitarist, btw, is also Mark White`s scholar.

Hey Jens, I just got into Jazz guitar 5 months ago because I’m training to be apart of the big band at my school. I’ve been using the basic jazz guitar chord voicings but I’ve been told that I need to use shell voicings or drop 2 voicings. Will using the basic voicings still work and how can I get better at comping if there’s nobody to play with around?

"The position is kind of determined from the second finger." Fun fact: that is true on cello, although cellist almost never extend the 4th finger, only the first and then, up high, the 3rd finger, but up there you stop using the fourth finger.

What annoyed me w caged. Years later 1 video clarified. Cmajor in 5 spots. Open 3rd. And 8th. CA _ E _. Cae you already know. Barchords. LearnG and D. Hardest to finger anyway. Could have learned in 5 minutes

Really good video! I do like the first system I call "classical" system to visualize arppegios better with the scales. It just makes better sense. Then 3nps for fast shred. I don't know why anyone wants to take a short cut and use caged. The caged system does line up with the pentatonics good I guess. Bottom line every guitarist should learn ever avenue for scales and arppegios. 2nps 3nps 4nps. Diaganols.... vertical, horizontal, inverted ECT ECT...

Wow! Seriously one of the most informative tutorials I’ve ever seen. It will help me a lot. Thanks Jens.

valuable lessons, good teacher l thank~you.☆

I’m just a n00b currently learning the 7 pattern system. So I see the advantage of 3nps for speed of playing the scale itself. But for improvising, you are not playing the scale in order so completly lose the regularity for your picking hand, right? So then you might has well use the 7 patterns unless your goal is to play the scale itself as fast as possible.

Where is it wrtten that "CAGED System" means no stretching? (That is, no scale patterns with consecutive whole steps on a single string)? That's like the Segovia scales. Are you familiar with those? There is never a W-W stretch. But to me, CAGED is just a handy mnemonic for how chord shapes ordered on the fretboard. I don't understand how that can be controversial.

The three note per string system is also called the Segovian system

The first CAGED example is incorrectly diagrammed. You are showing a Bb instead of the intended B which you played on the 4th string. This further illustrates your point of having to shift positions a lot with CAGED.

I'm going back over 30 years ago but I just learnt the notes on the neck cold as a kid doing classical. Then I learnt the keys and major and minor scales. Then modes. But I get a bit lost with A flat and relative minors that way out on that side of the circle of fifths. That's probably because I was a rock guitarist firstly. Listening to records and watching live gigs taught me a hell of a lot, Gary Moore and Michael Schenker amongst many others. Not sure if I could sit and learn a lot of shapes I think that would be harder for me when improvising. But I'm interested in using other ideas, CAGED seems good but it hasn't clicked totally yet. Haven't heard of any of the others. I think I unbeknowningly used a mixture of seven note and the 3 notes per string systems, I never really thought about it, seems to have followed on from classical and watching guys like Francis, moving across the neck three notes at a time. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-_wMK6_P-3_g.html Not sure what system if any Gaz us using ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE--G-PtmcPyK0.html Michael's is probably something completely if his own making. How his fingers move so far outwards... ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-EGY0KEGVK6Q.html

Why don't you show the root notes? Or at least say what key when you show the scales?

Mr. Larson, I like the ideas presented here - it seems like the 7 position system emphasizes the ability to really mine the gold out of a position when practicing - and maybe the need to shift is a lot less. And ultimately it seems we don't want to get tied to a system - the musical needs perhaps should guide the note pattern choices. One thing I was wondering about - in the Joe Pass Guitar method book, he shows a caged system but perhaps his is slightly different than other versions of the system? Perhaps you could comment on this.

Hi Jens!!! I have a question regarding the CAGED system.,, The shape that you have shown, isn't it just the natural scale over a pentatonic scale??? When looking at the chord system, its basically the shape of C major, A major , G major, E major and D major for any key, right??? and over those chords, the corresponding pentatonic scale can be played over …. any comments?? I happen to know all systems without knowing that they were called chord systems.... I just knew that the 7 note system was better for natural scales, and the CAGED system was better for pentatonic scales.... sure, I did see that natural scales can be fit over the CAGED chords, I feel its a way of looking at playing scales over inversions, because the CAGED chord system essentially is the inversion of a chord.... Any comments??

I think 3nps is the way to go. Most positions for the standard box positions/CAGED boxes include positions shifts anyway. So what's the point in sticking to that box? Also if you know the 3nps scales well enough it's fairely simple to "downgrade" them to use 2 notes on the B string - if you need this for some lick. I'm currently learnig a self-made system based upon 3nps. The idea is that each arpeggio/scale can be played in 3 shapes: root on first finger, root on second or third finger, root on last finger. After playing through 3 strings you're done. Then you can even repeat the same pattern going up an octave or cycle through these 3 patterns to stay in one position. This way, you only have to learn 3 patterns ranging trough 3 strings for each arpeggio/scale. Of course, the jump from the G to the B string is the odd one out, but you're getting used to this.

I loved your overview and comparison. I continually bounce from system to system trying to determine which works best for me. I originally learned CAGED and it seems so many jazz players use something similar to that (Jimmy Bruno, Pat Martino, Barry Greene, etc.). I started learning the 3 notes per string through Frank Gambale videos. (Interestingly, you kept mentioning that it's great for Alternate picking, but 3 nps is even better for Gambale type "sweep" picking and economy picking). At one point I had the idea (after trying to study Sonny Stitt solos) to do EVERYTHING in the 8th position and that covers almost all the range I need! So I ended up "inventing" what Berklee was already teaching! LOL) I quickly realized that if I want to play some chords also the way many jazz players play, that I can't just stay in the 8th position. What seems to work best when playing a scale up and down quickly changes once you are playing actual lines that have chromatic notes and skips. Things get pretty complicated at that point and makes me confused again at what is best (which is why I started to try and play everything in one p[lace.) More recently I had some online lessons from Peter Sprague who is serious about not using the same finger twice on adjacent strings on the same fret. So no "rolling" or barring your fingers when playing single lines. I can totally hear and feel the clarity of playing like that, .... but it often twists up my fingers and my brain when I try it as a strict rule and I often find myself trapped and tangled up. My question to you is, do you like to "barr" your finger to play on adjacent strings on the same fret or do you like using two different fingers?

The guitar grimoire gives a lot of 3 NPS excersizes. I am grateful I learned those early on in my guitar journey. It's not one system to rule them all but whatever helps you relate the the neck, chords and position. Whatever doesn't feel good, practice that until it feels great and then practice more. Next time I'll tell you how to get to Carnegie hall.

When I learned all 3 plus triad voicings. I became lazy. Cause I now know I can play anything. Lazy guitarists suck

Hello everybody, my name is Markiplier! Anyways, thank you for your amazing videos. I already watched a lot of them and am always learning

I had two main teachers, both jazz players, and they never named a scale system, but I think it was the 7 position mainly, but not exactly. One gave me I think the CAGED version of the scale that starts with finger 4 on the 6th string. The other gave me a system where you had a 8 positions: 4 different scales, one starting with each finger on the 6th and 5th strings. The fingerings starting with the 3rd finger were both awkward for me, so they didn’t stick.

You need a map until you know the way "by heart." Consider a territory, terrain, landscape. You can draw all the maps you want. The underlying referent has not changed, but sure, the angle with which you look at it 'appears' to alter it. The poster that said, something like "I am free of positions now" is where I am starting to see the possibility of. There are 7 natural notes, 12 total. For those that say they know this system, this system, this system, this system, I ask, curiously, not critically, "At this point don't you just see?" I suspect some are trapped in visual patterns and not sounds, hearing, audiating, intuiting aurally note relationships. I have just realized I am trapped.

Hi, my first teacher used the 12 position system 1 for each fret, it just meant that you stretch up or down to reach the note, so sometimes the same position will use a different fingering, this helped me see the neck and use whatever fingering worked best

Interesting another good video. I've never really used a system per-say, like you I come from an extensive classical background and the only scales I ever practiced were the Segovia scales which represent a 4th very distinct idea that I find useful, they travel up the neck and through the octaves which happens in a lot of classical pieces and is useful in fingerstyle jazz arrangements.

For anyone reading. I was taught caged system. NEVER understood cause its weird ANYWAY once I learned the whole neck it was crystal clear. I now can teach caged. And NO confusion

Excellent video, thanks! You bring up many great points, including the fact that there isn't just one way to do any of this, which is the point. Many great players have come up with all sorts of simple or intricate systems, and there's no way to say that one is "right" or "wrong". Pat Martino has an amazing system worked out that clearly has worked for him. But that same system might not make sense to someone else; that's why we try different approaches. The point is that this isn't a religion. The point is not to get hung up on whatever method works for us, so we don't need to say "Don't use that system; it sucks!" ALL of these systems are merely a means to an end. Once we've mastered whatever system works for us, we can forget about it and just play! Put another way, once I get to the other shore, what's the point of carrying the boat on my head? ;-)

Thanks for your videos. They are always thought provoking. I like the CAGED system because of its close proximity to pentatonic shapes and arpeggios based on familiar chords but I frequently mix it with both of the others. I often use the extension of first and fourth fingers which helps keep the CAGED system in single positions when thinking melodically through changes. When I use 3nps I generally feel more scalar and less melodic. That may be a familiarity issue or it might be a result of needing position changes with an already extended hand.

That old school stretch is brutal on short fingers. I have a better way it is the hall mark of my style and it will work for harmonic minor, melodic minor, and major scale. The day we meet and play together I will show you. If you ever come to NYC message me.

I didn't use a predetermined system to start with, and had no teacher, but what I ended up with back then was similar to CAGED, because I constructed each position of the major scale on the basis of triad fingerings and also tried to avoid stretches wherever I could. The trouble I ran into is that sometimes when improvising it would be very awkward to get to certain notes, especially when playing something that wasn't a scale passage. I therefore switched to a seven-position system, which was a help. I have two questions about your chart for the seven-position system. First, is there a mistake in the sixth fingering, the next to last one starting on D? Isn't that a Bb on the 13th fret of the fifth string? Shouldn't that be a B, on the 14th fret? Secondly, what actual fingering do you use for that particular position? There are several possibilities, for instance: 1) Using 1st finger stretches throughout and playing all the notes on the 12th fret with the second finger, 2) using 1st finger stretches but not stretching unless you're covering a major third on the same string, or 3) using 4th finger stretches?

Hi Jens. First of all thanks for all the excellent educational material you are putting on YT - I find your channel the best channel for jazz guitar. When looking at #1 - 7 Position System (starting from 3:40) I think that the 6th position on the chart is not fully correct. It has B flat and if we are in C it should be just B?

I think caged is best for me , because I do play the kind of music that works well with triads....but I am learning more 3nps scales to augment that...we can never have too much information about the fretboard

🤘The System!!! 🤖

Dear jens, shouldn't the positions begining with a D have a major 6th in the positions illustrations? since they are in C Major

Thanks! Ive had a hard time figuring what system to use. Just trying to get few 3nps position under my fingers.

I use SFS (String Fragment System) for a while around 2 years for EVERYTHING Melodic Scales, harmonic Scales, and Major/Minor Scales, Modes Scales, Arpeggios, Pentatonic Scales, etc... It works extremely good OR well for me and more important I don't have to memorize anything. I still have to practice, but when you get used to the system that is heaven on earth. Conclusion this have made my life so easy on the guitar fretboard and is one of the best systems. 🙂

I like rock and classical. I can't play jazz because I cannot grow a beard. Even so your tutorial is interesting.