Sorry you had such a bad experience. Thank you for highlighting it for the rest of the community. And on a side a note I love your Channel. I love the focus on family over-landing of your channel. Always look forward to new videos coming out!
In the beginning of a relationship with any craftsman you HAVE to stick to the old adage, “Trust, but verify.”. Realistically, verifying the quality of what you purchase is a necessity and quite frankly your own responsibility as you correctly state. It’s great for you to put out a reminder like this for folks to keep that as a priority, especially when a lot of folks in the overlander community actually live in their vehicles and can find themselves in difficult remote circumstances that rely on the high quality of the equipment that they use. Unfortunately yes, there are a large number of scammers out there willing to flat out knowingly deceive folks into purchasing their sub-par products and services. But there are probably more folks out there unwilling to admit that they either don’t have the true knowledge and experience they proclaim, or, they simply don’t posses the talent or skill to produce a top level of product quality. The overwhelming majority of these folks will use a lesser quality component or material and use the price savings angle to cement the deal. Let’s face it, if you expect to have a high quality outcome, most often the quality of that outcome is directly related to the quality of your research which is in general what you are explaining here. Secondly, it’s very often that the cash sum total you save paying for a lesser product can oftentimes become multiplied many times over by what you spend fixing and/or replacing that lesser quality product. Saving money is good only when there is no difference in sound reliable service. 😎
I agree with what you say! I must add here that these past years choosing products only regarding the price itself wasn't our way of doing and is even less now. We look for what we want for our needs, the most reliable offroad/offgrid product, and if it has a high price tag we still go for it. Our mistakes here: willing a specific material, not researching properly, and closing our eyes on red light situations. We learnt from it and hope it can help others just like everything you shared in your message.
Well… I think THIS video is one of the more productive one’s since it clearly shows, how some people want to make a quick buck/money. But you obviously would NEVER go back to that company. A good company does not do that… but nice of you to share your experience and thoughts… 👌 And remember… a bad company will always say … „it’s the customers fault“ … when your unhappy. While a good company will try to fix the problem, without assigning blame. Greetings from Germany everybody 👋
Most industries have these kind of people.. In the 4x4 comunity all over the world there are "craftsmen" that promises you the sun and stars and tell you they can do something, but when you recieve the product it is not what you asked for. This is why I rather get the tools and equipment and just build the stuff myself.
I agree! We also bought many tools over all those years but I feel that some skills must be acquired over years of experience, research, & development and this is why we should be able to trust some craftsmen. But obviously we need to beware and pay attention to not get fooled.
@@offtrackfamily True, however some just have no ethics what so ever big or small. I see it this why, I rather build the thing I want my self. if it doesn't look good or what ever I am to blame and I can fix it to make it better. But if you have paid a "professional" to do something and they have been doing it for many years and it is still a screw up, and you need to fix your self that is what makes me loose trust in a professional and I rather attempt something my self.. (I am currently busy with something like this because I refuse to go back to a company that promised me the moon and stars. and it came out worse than if I would have done it myself.). That being said, we have some nice software nowadays.. that you can quickly learn.. you draw things up, and send it for lazer cutting and bending.. and you put it together like an Ikea product.. 🤣
Unfortunately this isn't limited to 4X4 shops, sadly I would say the majority of car shops, home contractors, etc., do mediocre work. It is worth spending effort finding who does the absolute best work and pay a true craftsman to do quality work.
I agree it's worth spending time for finding true professional craftsmen who provide their best work in a specific field. Manufacturing reliable products for offroad & offgrid must be taken seriously as we need to rely on those products while out there. We had a great lesson there and will be way more vigilant from now on.
I feel your pain and frustration. There are a lot of scammers out there who will take advantage of us in the 4x4 world. Put it all down to experience and learn from it. Love your channel and content. Happy travels 🌷🥂👍❤
I'm also not the person that complains and should do it more, pay the school fees and move on. I commend you guys for the warning signs and it will help other people. I always believe that if you drive a certain brand stick to the most recognised specialist, here by me in South Africa the guys are everywhere and Land Rover has a huge following.
It's sometimes difficult to express a bad experience but it's necessary when you know it can help others. It seems better to stick with recognised specialist but it's a shame for new craftsmen who do provide their best work and service.
France is the only place where a garage owner was honest enough to admit he did,nt have any experience with my truck and said I would be better off finding someone else. Here in England they are more likely to take the job on and mess it up. Although I have in the past had garages that have sub contracted it . Taken their cut and still smiled as they hand me the bill.
There are the ones who are honest and take all aspects of their work seriously, there are the ones who clearly know they're not capable and will do the job anyway for the "quick" money, and they are the ones who put themselves on a pedestal thinking they are the best and will blame everyone else when something goes wrong with their work. A shame but it's the reality
A lesson learned... thank you for sharing! Having a safety box out of aluminium plate is some sort of contradiction in terms. Aluminium isn't exactly resistant to perforations. The hinge that was used is a so-called "piano hinge". They come by the meter and they can be sawed to size. They're used by carpenters for indoor use only and are not very durable. What a botched-up job.
Thanks for your message! It's more a storage box than a safety one. Correct for the piano hinge, as we bought one and cut it to size to replace his rusty one not made for outdoors use.
@@offtrackfamily I realize it's not a safety box. However, the way it was installed, it's exposed to off-road grit that's blasted from the tires -- It's a rear wheel drive, after all, isn't it? :-) And when you drive on brined roads in winter, the salt will affect the quality of the aluminium as well. Stainless steel would have been my choice of material. It's more expensive, but since the amount needed is rather small, it wouldn't be that much extra money.
So sorry that this happened to you. It is frustrating to have poor craftsmanship from someone who claims excellence. Glad that you're able to learn from this and teach the rest of us. Those who may criticize are simply not being honest with their own mistakes. I've made plenty and continue to learn. I've been looking for months for one of those boxes. Suggestions? Cheers, Ken
Thanks for the message! Never ending life lessons, this is how we grow to be better ;) had quite a few suggestions on ig post or fb, we wouldn't know which one to recommend.
It is difficult. You're taking your rig to the middle of nowhere, so you want it to be reliable, especially land rover. I just learned to do everything myself.. my 30 landcruiser never goes into a shop and I take it offroad in the middle of nowhere for days without any worries. It helps to check forums, they often have a section about reliable mechanics.
I agree, we need reliable parts and honestly most of what we have is reliable offroad & offgrid. I can understand why you prefer to do everything yourself. If we can and have the tools for it, we also tend to do the job because when in the middle of nowhere no one is there to help so best to know your vehicle. We aren't equiped for the story shared in this video and thought it would be better made. In any case, we do have a reliable mechanic for the big jobs.
I feel that if the service and aftersales service is taken seriously companies can be trusted, even if the part itself has a problem. But when a craftsman sells himself as a pro and the best in what he does or says he's capable of providing the part you want but it's all wrong from the start, then this is a problem.
Just discovered your channel. Your information was smart and well laid out. I have seen other land rover enthusiasts put those boxes there for space and because I’m in Canada 🇨🇦 I thought right away about snow, salt and rust. You would certainly need a premium product for there. Spraying some bed liner on the outside and inside was something that occurred to me as well.
Thanks for the message! Yes, snow salt and rust is also part of the game here, and we most often aim for premium. Some craftsmen sell their service as premium and we got fooled because not listening to the signals. Which storage box have you seen in Canada and would you recommend?
Experience is: If you buy cheap, you buy twice. And that’s not only for car parts, research upfront should be standard when buying stuff above a certain amount of money.
Unfortunately it is difficult to avoid these bad experiences because they are everywhere.. Who has never fallen, cast the first stone.. In my opinion, the first step to avoid is to put passion aside and act with the head and not with the heart. By acting with the heart, we lose focus on the signs you spoke.. Here's the lesson learned and excellent overcoming the problem..
That sucked for you but yeah you learned and thanks for bringing your experience to the rest of us. You didn't pay attention to your instincts... happens to the best of us.
Thank you for sharing this Overland world wide problem. I also do not like the fact that they charge so much more just because it is for overloading and not universal items that can be bought at the local hardware store.
Thanks for the message! I feel that as 4x4 overlanding is kind of trending many try to jump on the train without being able to offer quality and reliable products for offroad use and the service that goes with it.
I think this is a quite common thing in the overland scene. Without proper product knowledge it's hard to know. If you look at companies that makes auto body conversions (TOMS. CUSTOM CONVERSIONS. KOMA LAND etc) for example, you'll most likely see hinges on the inside rather than on the outside. It does compromise some space, but also keeps the functionality of the product safe from foreign impact. Sorry to hear this, the good thing in this whole thing is that the box is easy to modify - even thought you Shouldn't have to.
Very good video. The best learned lesson cost the most. It drains your energy, you loses money and time. Thanks for sharing - keep your good works going. 🤟🌹
It is really sad that this has happened to you, you are such a positive person and always have a lovely smile. There are scammers everywhere, and it hurts more when you put your trust in someone and you get ripped off. Hopefully its the last time you will get ripped off and we can see you smile again.🚙☺
I'm sorry this happened to you guys. On the instalation video I told it looked like crap. By the way, I'm going through the same problem but the item is the trunk window replacement to an alluminum one. The guy only sent me one out of two I bought and the one that arraived has a lot of issues, like water proofing and bad locking mecanism. I'm from Brazil and this type of issue happens all over the world.
I think we've all done something similar somewhere along the way. Luckily your "problem" did not seem to have huge and/or life-threatening implications for you. At least you got the matter sorted and ended with a reasonable result. BTW, gorgeous hair!!
Thanks! As you say, we were lucky it was only a disappointing accessory, service, & personal mistreatment ; no mechanics involved. If sharing this helps anyone to not get fooled, I'm happy.
We could make a 10 hour video of the abject disappointment we have experienced during our build. Not just small companies, but also some of the global leaders too.
I'm a Perfectionist Mechanic Restoreing Land Rovers and other 4X4s .Fixing Bad workmanship inferior materials?if its cheap or aftermarket parts its your fault. Only buy OME PARTS ie Land Rover Parts made by Land Rover or their suppliers ect
Always best to take genuine LR parts when restoring a Defender and not go for aftermarket. But if you want to upgrade to HD parts, some well-known companies have great reliable products. Concerning the "camper" accessories, this is where it can get tricky.
Don't forget to isolate the stainles steel from the aluminium box, aluminium wil corode because of its highly reactive nature, aluminium always ends up becoming the weaker metal. Use kit or a gasket to separate the metals
Name and shame. It’s more common these days companies want to save so they skimp on components and service. Front runner being one of these and they’re large. They charge high costs and still over nuts n bolts that rust and poor quality power coating. It’s nuts and well done for sharing
@@offtrackfamily we’re both on the same page with quality. For me it needs to be tough or it goes. Recovery equipment can become heavy especially when wet. That box could create other problems 👍.
Went through something very similar recently except 8 months of work and a lot more money. Despite research, recommendations, and voicing concerns and receiving guarantees, warranty ECT ECT everything went to shit. Lies about everything and none of the work performed as promised. I think you can do things to minimize risk of being scammed but scammers are in the business of scamming and we as humans tend to want to trust and believe. Sooner or later we are all bound to be fooled. Don't be hard on yourself, you did nothing wrong.
Well done! Although you either do not mention his name, or show his picture, the goal has been achieved. I am pretty sure that no other Defender owner will head his way. These scam, so called professionals, must be out of business.
Thanks for the message! Yes, i feel you got my point. In any case, I did share our customer experience on FB. I had a few (bad) feedbacks from previous customers but also got shamed by the craftsman himself & was blocked, mistreated by another one, and a few people. This topic is, as you say, a worldwide problem and customers must be aware.
Friends worse things I've seen, is just a toolbox. Apparently these are things that happen all over the world. I have seen auxiliary tanks that do not fit, sunroof that do not close, obviously it does not happen with Land Rover approved products but those are very expensive and in cost-benefit I do not think, it does not close. And there are things that do not exist in approved products. Sometimes I think that to modify a defender you need to have a workshop and a team of engineers haha or ask someone who has worked well for recommendations, that's why the forums are important. the important thing is that the mechanics of the vehicle are well and know the strengths and weaknesses of the vehicle, the classic gearbox leak points and always check before each trip.
Yes, many similar and even worse stories were told to us since sharing this "be careful" video. It's understandable that many in the 4x4 community end up doing most work themselves.
Désolé pour vous 😥! Je suis débutant en tout-terrain et voyage, je n'ose pas imaginer à quel point je pourrais me faire avoir, alors que vous avez ces mésaventures malgré votre expérience et le monde que vous connaissez certainement. Merci pour cette piqûre de rappelle!
Merci pour le message! Bienvenu dans la communauté 4x4 :) c'est un apprentissage non-stop qui nous pousse à nous investir et on aime bcp cela. En revanche, on aime bcp moins ce genre d'expérience mais si le fait de la partager aide d'autres personnes de la communauté, cela aura été bénéfique de ce point de vue là.
Your findings are true in ALL aspects of life unfortunately. You are very accurate in your analysis and how to identify people who express themselves as craftsmen but in reality are just looking for your money. The motor trade is full of traders like this and it is best to find someone you know is working exclusively with Land Rover Defenders. There will be some in Switzerland. I always found Emil Frey in Switzerland very good with my Jaguar and they also work with Land Rover. They are not cheap, but they are good and very professional. They are in Nyon, but I also saw a Land Rover specialist from the train near Lausanne I think.
Thanks for the message! We were a little disappointed by LR garages around here but found a good mechanics in France, not too far, for the big jobs we feel need to be done by a skilled pro. Then the market is full of accessories or HD parts for a camper setup and this becomes tricky if you don't research properly or stay alert.
@@offtrackfamily If it is any comfort, in UK it is just as bad. I had my Landrovers maintained by a garage in the farming community and stuck with him always.
The state of it! Looks like it's made from bits of old fridge and cutting into the rear quarter panel for that 😱. 👍If you struggle for space that much why don't you start running a trailer? My defender became so overloaded I switched to an ex military Penman trailer for the majority of our equipment and I'd never go back. It's so good to tow both on and off road and a lot safer.
Sorry you had to go through this thanks for sharing what you have learnt with This experience I'm sure many people will learn a lot. I do love your Land rover its awesome. All my very best Simon from the UK xx
Unfortunately the world is full of imposters, but fortunately you and your husband are able to repair the box and many other items on the defender. The box looks incredible and probably better than new. Keep in mind your human and we all make mistakes. An obstacle you learned from. We love your videos and Happy trails ahead. Oh yeah…..my wife expressed your hair is beautiful !
Don’t be too hard on yourselves, we’ve all done it. You’re a very busy young family where it’s only natural to assume a level of trust and faith in suppliers. Personally with all the energy you’ve invested in your Puma I’d get a bespoke one made up locally, which fully maximises the available space. I think the bad taste you have with this box will spoil your experience every time you use it. Positive vibes from England U.K. 😊
Thanks for the message! it is true that this experience has spoilt this storage box. Might replace it one day, but not for the moment as we have way more important thing to do on the Defender ;) Always positive vibes! :)
Yes everyone is a expert! Sarcasm. It looks like your friend did a great job compared to the other. Before i even heard you talk about the hinge when i had seen it i could tell it was crappy material. It makes me mad that people make such bad items. Just remember these words when buying items it throws vendors off and makes them think before the talk to much about the product. Ask them if they used MARINE GRADE here that means boat or ship grade. Stainless and they have a special paint also.
Thanks for the video. That is a great shame that you experienced this. In my experience this sort of box commonly goes under the rear seats like in the military specification defender. In my early 110 there is a tool box in that area behind the rear wheel that opens from inside the truck. I had always assumed that they were all the same!
Thanks for the message! Not all Defenders are the same. If a craftsman doesn't know that, it's a big red flag. We, unfortunately, didn't take in consideration this big red flag.
the box seems like it's not too bad overall. the real issue is he charged 350 euro for it when it's really worth less than half that. also it was never going to be waterproof with that type of seal and latch.
We are questioning the waterproofness of the welding work more than the seal we removed. If the work put in the product is quality, we are fine to put in the price for pro skills acquired through the years. But the work done on this box clearly isn't what we were aiming for. So as you say, the price worth it.
I have previously commented on this video and have had the content deleted! Poor workmanship is not acceptable but you guys chose to drive there! Let’s see how long this comment lasts? Free press guys!
Voila pourquoi mon Def ne passe uniquement qu’entre les mains de vrai pro (Newman4x4). Je n’ai pas de gros moyen, mais je préfère économiser pour acheter des accessoires de marque reconnu! J’ai le réservoir d’eau front runner dans l’aile et j’en suis super content :) J’espère que tout rentrera dans l’ordre! Bon courage :)
Merci pour le message! Nous n'avons pas été assez vigilants et nous sommes écartés de notre habitude, la même que vous: si nécessaire économiser et mettre le prix pour un accessoire et service de qualités.
I like the storage box you added I’m curious why you feel you needed a specialist to build thisi think you could have found a sheet metal shop to produce what you need
Unfortunately no welding tools, nor any workshop to do such job. We aren't equipped to do certain kind of work. And also felt it would better made by a pro...
it was custom made by the craftsman, he took the measurements the day he was supposed to install the box he first made that didn't have the correct measurements for our 4x4.
Moin, Well what can I say, it was an experience, but not a good one. To the installation of the box, as seen so often. - the box does not hold if this is only screwed to the front body panel. - the Adhesive cracks and it leaks. - the retaining bracket behind the box is not the best solution - the box must be additionally screwed to the top of the body (floor panel). - depending on what is transported in the box (weight), the box works too hard. - our 3 boxes (HT version) are now installed since 2008 and still tight, nothing cracked etc. - this 3 boxes were made by a company (sheet metal processing) in Trier, stainless steel. - so far no contact corrosion (Sikaflex!). - Hinges (stainless steel) are from the Segement boat accessories -- Quality The installation I did myself, first learned job, body and vehicle builder. And use Sikaflex and not some cheap crap! Yes and you are right. Before you buy any product from someone and/or have it installed, you should check whether this is really a good decision. After the visit with the wrong box I would have canceled here. What about your new Pop up Roof Tent? Have fun with your conversion.
Thanks for your message and sharing your insights! Sikaflex all the way for us ;) Pop up roof will be installed in October and looking forward having it. A serious craftsman behind this job ;)
I used a bulletproof/ammo box ex military and the lid is very tight and gas tight, installing it is similar to the Off-track family but supported by aluminum elbows and riveted to the car body....others as your suggestion .... it's very cheap and stronggest
We already have a long range fuel tank from LRA and we will have water tanks on both sides of the chassis. We needed more storage space, it's the reason of this storage box placement.
The Land Rover Defender aftermarket is huge. Many rouge suppliers are out there. I always go for reputable makers and suppliers'. Land Rover Defenders deserve to have quality parts and upgrades' installed. Lets face it owning a Land Rover Defender is an investment. My advice? Don't go for cheapness. If you have the funds always always buy quality parts. Check feedback and google ratings for companies before you commit to buy.
I agree 👍. Doing this way should minimise risk of being scammed. It can happen to have an issue with parts but as long as the after sales service is taken seriously it's fine.
I never order accessories for my 4Runner online, unless it is from the site of a known and trusted manufacturer lol.... I'd never go on Amazon or FB and order me some random "discount" trail lights or storage lol... Those look so cheap... I'd like to quote that old saying,that "you get what you pay for"... Unfortunately, often not even that, when ordered online 🤣
Hello, merci pour tout ce que vous faites!! Je voulais la même pour mon 130 TD5, est-ce que vous pourriez me donner le nom en MP pour que j'évite une deconvenue?! J'espère que le poopup roof (des pays-bas) va arriver vite!!
I understand your problems! But you must put aside the Travel and Time to visit a supplier? That was your issue. Bad workmanship was their issue! Thank you for sharing but if you don’t name and shame it doesn’t help a Community!
Oh dear I feel sorry for you. I’m afraid to say there’s a lot of cowboys out there. Research, research, if in doubt just walk away. Get in the defender drive away. These fools need to be named & shamed, please he’s no craftsman, all he his just a cheap ass cowboy!
Yes research & research & research is the best way to go and stop the deal when it's not right or not aligned with the required reliability & quality for offroad/offgrid use.
Thanks for your message! If you follow us on facebook, it's easy to know who dislike us for talking about this issue in the 4x4 community. The point of the video is to help avoid these type of bad experiences. :)
Salut la famille 4x4 :-) Bravo pour toutes vos vidéos ! Effectivement de parler franchement de cette mauvaise expérience avec un soi-disant "pro" va aider ou rappeler à la communauté d'être méfiant. J'ai presque envie de dire "surtout" quand on est de suisse et recevons automatiquement une étiquette comme étant aisé. Je veux bien connaître en MP le nom de ce "pro". Salutations amicales du Chablais.
Merci pour le message! J espère que ce petit rappel permettra à certains d éviter des mauvaises experiences. En mp sur insta et fb, ou alors par mon email de yt :)
Cutting huge holes in the side of your vehicle is a very bad idea to start of with. The aluminum is very weak and poorly supported at that spot. The end result will be marginal at best.
This is the reason why we didn't want to remove the steal tube that is under there. Some say is useless if you don't keep the trunk seats but we feel it does support the body. Do you have a Defender ? Because depending which one you have, it's different unde there.
@@offtrackfamily Yes I have two Defenders. One came out with no seats in the back and therefore no metal tubes at all. I think the main purpose is to protect passengers from a side impact. My other Defender has seats in the back and also the steal tubes which are on the inside of the vehicle. I suppose using the tubes as anchor points will work to support the installation. For me cutting the body of the LR is to risky.
We didn't want to do the installation and the craftsman said he would do it. But as the box was too big when we arrived for the installation in his workshop (after driving 700km), the craftsman didn't do the installation. Then, weeks later, another smaller box was sent to us and we did the installation with a friend in our friend's workshop.
I feel for you - as similar types of scenarios have happened to me (& likely many people) in the past. It is more sad & disappointing since you have put so much effort into making it work with this guy. Not all your fault as with many things in life - You are trusting the seller/supplier to their word - but since this guy was very convincing - you may have fallen for his BS - all toward making a few extra Francs. Move on - forget about the incident by finding some humor in the experience.
@@offtrackfamily We are on our second build. Having taken our time on both. No real (expensive❗) dramas to date - a few smaller dramas. Your experience was not that costly (except for time & annoyance & disappointment & etc-:)
Well, if we add up the costs it was quite expensive in the end but the cost isn't the main problem as we prefer putting the price for quality parts we can rely on when out with the car. You named loss of time, loss of money, deception, etc. I agree but you forgot to mention disrespect because i feel you haven't read those craftsmen on fb.
Nice the Jeep gladiator. If I'm not mistaken, in the US you can't import LR Defender from less than 20 years ago? Meaning the most recent one you could purchase would be from 2002 ?
bonjour, vu votre notoriété (et donc le temps que vous avez a y consacrer) il est etonnant que, par exemple, vous n'ayez pas fait de recherches, ca sent de visu à un modele chinois, pas chere. après il y a du lazer (très chere) mais super cam' Il y a un proverbe qui dit tout ce que l'on paye pas chere, on le paye 2x après pr le coffre alu ou des trucs comme ca malheureusement, ap part voir des commentaires sur internet, c'est un peu la loterie mais etant "tatasse", je fais quasiment tout moi meme sur le mien, au moins si je suis deçu du resultat je peux ne m'en prendre qu'à moi meme... mais ce genres d'exp n'est pas cool. belle lvideo et belle chaine en tous cas !!!!
Merci pour le message! Concernant les feu "wish", comme expliqué dans la vidéo cela fait partie des achats d articles de mauvaise qualité en toute connaissance de cause, c est pour cela que nous avons investi dans des Lazer Lamps lorsque le budget le permettait. Ensuite, comme vous le dites, sans recherches il est assez facile de se faire fourvoyer, d autant plus lorsque les artisans se mettent en avant et vendent leur service.
The point is more a reminder to be aware of what can happen if not being careful when giving work to do on your 4x4. I shared a more specific post on my fb page.
WoW what a lesson. That is whay I do things my self the stuf I an not make I know a cuple of craftsman that can make it for me and they also give me tips how to make things. Hope next time you wont get pore service like that. Cbeers. 🍷&🍺
En résumé, chercher le meilleur prix n’est pas forcément gage de qualité . Même si certains prix sont surfait. Écouter ses tripes et se faire confiance. C’est toujours navrant de voir qu’il existe des vendeurs de merde. Navré pour votre mésaventure
