This. It doesn’t make sense it would actually be Hayden at the end at his prequel era age. That implies he died then, which undermines Vader’s entire character ark. George Lucas can be, and often has been, objectively creatively wrong (truly a difficult feat), which is something a lot of Star Wars fans today constantly forget it seems.
They probably wanted to cast someone who looked around the same age as Alec Guinness. If Anakin was supposed to look that old when he turned to the dark side, that would mean Obi Wan was probably younger than him even though he was his master.
@@killiter1997 as Quinton mentioned this was a remaster (the _second_ remaster, at that). We used to joke about Lucas' inability to leave the films alone.
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my star wars take is that i care more about thematic consistency than logical lore consistency. those first six films might not have particularly airtight internal logic but there is a very strong thematic line about compassion and the power of love which i value more.
Fr fr. That's why Rise of Skywalker was so ughh to me, it felt like everyone was just mean to each other for no reason. Idc about dumbass lore, I just care about how characters act with each other and themes.
I actually have this exact action figure! He was given to me by my neighbor who was moving, who was a star wars fan in the early 90s. My mom, who has seen original and prequel trilogies had no idea what it was and thought it was some weird bootleg. She didn't recognize him as the original anakin, despite the fact she saw return of the jedi in theatres in 1983. However, my dad, who had only seen the original trilogy when they originally came out and never engaged with star wars ever again after recognized him instantly. I just think that experience is reflective of how the history of star wars has been so shifted by the narrative and prequel nostalgia, that my mom didn't recognize the man she saw in theatres 40+ years ago...
Hayden Christian has talked about watching the Clone Wars show to prepare for playing Anakin in Ahsoka, so I could totally see him studying that Sebastian Shaw scene to get a similar delivery for the Kenobi show.
Sebastian Shaw is a name that I know by heart for his small appearance and always have. Idk why i have space in my brain for remembering him and not other actors who have done more things that ive actually seen
I feel like the main thing people seem to forget when it comes to prequel nostalgia vs potential sequel nostalgia is that there is a much larger volume of prequel media to be nostalgic for. Whether you liked them or not, between 1999 and 2012, the prequels WERE Star Wars with the most noteworthy pieces of Star Wars media being made at that time either taking place during the prequels or attempting to bridge the gap between the the prequel trilogy and the original trilogy. Meanwhile, the sequel trilogy's time in the spotlight lasted from 2015 to 2019, only to then get outshined by The Mandalorian before Rise of Skywalker even came out in theaters. And when the sequel trilogy had its moment to shine, it still needed to share that time with other pieces of Star Wars media that had little to no connections to the sequel trilogy (Rogue One, Rebels, Solo, Fallen Order, etc) along with many pieces of Star Wars media at the time putting the current trilogy more or less on the same pedestal as the other two trilogies rather than letting it take center stage. Most importantly, I feel like potential sequel trilogy nostalgia is hurt solely on the basis that the sequel trilogy never got its Clone Wars equivalent (and Resistance doesn't count). Specifically, it never got a series that took place in between the films that allowed audiences to spend more time with the characters introduced in those films as well as expand on things that worked about the films but weren't fully explored and recontextualize things that might not have worked in the films (mainly when it comes to episode 9) on top of making the movies feel more interconnected as a result. I also feel the need to acknowledge that the reason Clone Wars is an important part of prequel nostalgia is that it came out AFTER the prequel trilogy concluded so there was no risk of anything in the show getting retconned by a later film and it allowed the brand to stay relevant for almost a decade after the movies ended. But due to the backlash after the release of The Last Jedi, the executives got cold feet and when they had another Star Wars property to latch onto (The Mandalorian) the sequel trilogy immediately became the forgotten middle child who didn't even have the chance to redeem itself. Is that fair to the sequel trilogy and the characters introduced in those films? No, not in the slightest. As flawed and messy as the sequel trilogy is, there's still a lot of potential with that era of the franchise and I personally feel that it's wrong to just pretend that they don't matter. But a decent chunk of the modern Star Wars fandom (or the Dave Filoni fandom if we're being honest) wants those three films erased from existence and for the time being, it looks like they got their wish
these are my exact thoughts too. while i'm looking forward to eventual ST nostalgia (as someone who loved TLJ and didn't mind/mostly liked both TFA and TROS - although i have criticisms of all three of them), i don't think it's gonna happen the same way all this PT nostalgia happened. after TLJ's backlash, Disney wanted to get a broader audience on their side again, and tried to achieve this with both TROS and The Mandalorian. they went all-in on Grogu as a cute, easy means to appeal to the masses, and when TROS released in theaters and was subsequently panned, they used the hype for Grogu and the show as a failsafe, with interconnecting stories following suit. that's what everyone (particularly younger fans) is/are gonna remember from this time period. a sequel renaissance will happen (hell, people are gonna look back on Solo in a similar manner), but in tandem with fans looking back more on the onslaught of other SW media on Disney+, relegating those films to the sidelines, or as you said "forgotten middle children". the one thing that might change this is the release of the New Jedi Order film, because many viewers (regardless of their overall thoughts on the ST) either loved Daisy Ridley or wanted to see her take on the role with a different screenwriter in tow. when that film eventually releases, you'll likely see a number of viewers giving the ST another shot, recontextualizing their content, warts and all. but it doesn't help that two of the four films on the release schedule are continuations of/interconnected with all the shows in the New Republic era, and that many of these shows have more seasons or new additions on the way. only time will tell if Disney decides to revisit the ST era with more content the way they've been doing for the PT and OT, but until that happens (if it happens), the New Jedi Order film will most likely be the catalyst for it.
I agree with you in a lot of ways but I'm also not sure if a Clone Wars type series for the sequels would even work. I really do not think those movies have as much to explore and expand on as the prequels did because so much of their identity is based on rehashing the original trilogy. The choice to blow up the new republic as a way to sort of wipe the slate clean/reset the status quo in Force Awakens was maybe one of the worst things they could have done because it instantly made the world so much smaller and killed a lot of the potential for new stories. There's also the fact that I think Rise of Skywalker is so bad that it retroactively makes the entire trilogy worse and at least personally speaking killed almost any interest I have in revisiting that side of the franchise. Despite all that I do think people will start having more nostalgia for them and I think Disney will try to push those movies more in the future, we're already getting a new Rey movie and I honestly hope its good but im not sure if that'll be enough. I'm not against trying to salvage the sequels I honestly do like a lot of characters and ideas from them but I remain very skeptical that the sequels could have a renaissance to the same extent the prequels did.
I mean, most of the books that expand on Luke, Han and Leia’s journey after VI came out during the prequels. There was also a big Old Republic push at that time as well. Most prequel media made during the prequels were video games, books and comics that took place in between the time gaps in the prequels. Media “bridging the gap” didn’t really happen until after 2005, and there really isn’t that much of it compared to the massive volume of media set before I, between I and II, during the Clone Wars, and after VI. For the sequels there is Galaxy’s Edge, Star Wars: Resistance and a lot of books and comic books set during the sequel era. There’s only half a year between VIII and IX to work with, but there’s a shocking amount that’s actually supposed to take place then. I think you’re forgetting the possibility of media set after IX or during the lead up to VII being created when fans are more accepting of it. Once that Rey movie comes out, the flood gates are open to make media set in that 15 year gap. Filoni’s plan is probably to bridge the gap between his movies/shows and the sequels too.
Yeah, I've said for years that the sequel trilogy's biggest reason it won't have that reevaluation in, like, the diehard fandom of people who buy SW books, video games, and can name individual ship classes, not the casuals who just watch the movies and shows or the rightist culture warriors who are also just as shallow about it, is that. At its core, nobody's a fan of Star Wars without extraneous material propping it up. The Clone Wars tv show made the prequels better because any depiction of the Clone Wars makes the prequels better. The old Star Wars multi-media project that did the Clone Wars before the tv show cannibalized it for parts made the prequels better. Every single person who comments on Star Wars and its obsessive fandom who hates everything that came out forgets that anything besides the movies and tv show exist. Books were the fourth most profitable thing in the Star Wars brand when Disney declared them non-canon. The prequels are awful by themselves, and it makes sense why people hate them if they didn't engage with anything else from that era. It's harder to do something like that for the sequel era, though. You can't tell when something is set in the sequel or OT era without some signifier like referencing a character because the sequels' design philosophy was so reliant on OT nostalgia. That's why I'm a rare oldhead who liked The Last Jedi. Stuff looked different in that, some stuff, anyway, but I digress. Is that X-Wing in Resistance colors or is it just a Rebel squadron who wanted to paint their X-Wing a certain way? The First Order heavy vehicle is just an AT-AT with frontloading and another gun on top. It's just "Imperial, but more." What if you want to make something in the OT era with a lot of guns on it? Lucas made a good call ordering CIS stuff to be designed initially like rebel stuff and expand from there. Round guys bad, doritos good, prequel era. Round guys good, dorito bad, original *and* sequel era. Anything you set in the OT era, with only some story modification you can set in the sequel era, and vice versa. Disney seeks to milk all eras besides the Old Republic, so a lot of stuff you can choose to set in one, you could set in the other, and without homework, the same thing people say is killing the MCU, casual fans probably can't tell.
I was actually thinking about Sebastian Shaw's Anakin a couple days ago. There's a new Lego Star Wars animated short coming to Disney+ later this year for the 25th anniversary of Lego Star Wars with "what if?" versions of characters from Star Wars like Darth Jar Jar as seen in the trailer, and to coincide with the special's release they're putting out a "Dark Millennium Falcon" set with some of these what if characters. One of those characters is Darth Vader in all-white armor from an old Star Wars what if comic called Star Wars: Infinities. A few days ago an image of the minifigure of the white Darth Vader leaked online and it showed that the Anakin Skywalker head underneath the Darth Vader helmet is based on Sebastian Shaw and not Hayden Christensen. I was really surprised to see Lego pay homage to him and I'm curious to see if that detail will be brought up in the animated special.
honestly i feel shaw was always meant to represent old Anakin and not anakin when he died and became vader, this is my first time ever hearing people think otherwise
I love this style of you just casually talking to the camera. It makes me feel like I’m listening to a friend infodump about something interesting that I don’t know much about.
I love the idea that Hayden was imitating Shaw's performance and I totally believe it. You're on point with that one. I've been out of online star wars circles since TROS came out and honestly just broke my heart after loving the OT, PT, 7, 8 and the cartoons beforehand. But it seemed to me like Hayden was really coming back around to the whole thing and was a fan himself, i almost find it hard to believe that given the opportunity to reclaim his reputation after his original reception in the prequels he *wouldn't* try to imitate Shaw for an older Anakin. I cant believe I didn't pick up on that when I watched Kenobi. Big up the big man Sebastian Shaw, respect.
as a 36 year old who mostly checked out of Star Wars after Episode 9, this entire discussion is fucking wild to me. the idea that anyone would LIKE having Hayden in Episode 6, let alone it being taken for granted by modern fans, feels completely incongruous with my perception of these movies. and I'm not even someone who has it out for the prequels - Episode 1 came out when I was 9 and was Peak to me then. weird, wild stuff.
I'll be 36 next month and this is my exact experience as well. I posted to my IG stories a couple of weeks ago that I was watching the theatrical cut of Star Wars '77 and one of my younger followers responded with, "Whoa, you mean the version where Jabba is just a fat old white dude??" and I was completely gobsmacked that Lucas has done such a thorough job papering over the original cuts that some folks can't even conceive that the Jabba scene wasn't in the film at all at one point.
Kind of like how Ewan McGregor has stated on many occasions that he puts on a bit of a different voice as Obi-Wan so he can sound a bit more like Alec Guinness, I love the idea that Hayden Christensen was trying to make himself sound a little bit like Sebastian Shaw during that one moment. Honestly didn't even catch it before, but after watching that clip a few times I think he's definitely trying to imitate Shaw there
I feel like I had my childhood Star Wars phase at an awkward time. I was in late elementary school when the prequels started coming out, and I was in late high school when they wrapped up. I started out young enough to enjoy Episode 1 for how goofy and kid-friendly it was, and I ended old enough to be a jaded teen who thought Episodes 2 and 3 were hot garbage. The most genuine Star Wars nostalgia I have is for that brief period you mentioned in the late 90’s when the Special Editions and all that expanded media were coming out. So, you’d think I would be more nostalgic for the original trilogy than the prequels. I am to some extent, but not nearly as much as I am about other media from my childhood. I knew at the time that the versions of the movies I was watching weren’t how they were “supposed” to be. So, despite loving those movies, there was always a slight distance there too. Honestly, the most nostalgic pieces of Star Wars media you could put in front of me would be books like Tales from Jabba’s Palace or The Mandalorian Armor (incidentally, the fact that everyone knows the term “Mandalorian” now is SUCH a trip to me). I haven’t gotten to re-read any of that stuff in a long time, but I remember feeling way more invested in the world of Star Wars by reading various books and comics than I did watching the movies. Probably because expanding the world is what they were designed to do, but also because for a long time, that WAS the current Star Wars - it was “my” Star Wars. So it feels a bit weird seeing such hardline defenders of both the original trilogy and the prequels in different fan spaces. I did fall more in line with the prequel haters for a while, especially during the Plinkett boom of the late naughts. After living with someone slightly younger than me who adores the prequels, though, I’ve mellowed out a lot and come around more to the way of thinking presented in this video. What Star Wars is - and what Star Wars *nostalgia* is - is going to keep changing over time, and I think it’s important to keep perspective on that. I’m very curious about how kids growing up with the sequel trilogy and expanded media now are going to talk about these things in 10-15 years. …I’m especially curious how they’re going to defend The Rise of Skywalker, because what the F- Anyway, good vid! Thanks for sharing, I enjoy your thoughts as always.
I remember being a teenager during the Disney acquisition and how it felt seeing the prequels, the Star Wars movies i grew up with and loved being relentlessly ahit on and having their positive aspects not even acknowledged, let alone discussed. And that's why im not nearly as brutal in my sequel criticisms as many people my age are (that and being so obsessed with films i don't like is pretty unhealthy). The children of today will grow up to have seen something in the sequels that i didn't and I'm very curious to see what it is.
One interesting take I heard about The Last Jedi specifically was, "Why don't we hear from the defenders of it anymore hm?" and the response was, "Because we enjoyed it and moved on with our lives instead of making hating it our entire identity." It will be very strange seeing fresh eyes coming to Rise of Skywalker and treating it like Return of The Jedi. "Yeah it's worse than the others but it's still good."
@@Cdr2002 "I sleep in a bed that's shaped like a race car while hating The Last Jedi." "...I sleep in a big bed with my wife and watch lots of different movies."
@@Cdr2002 my ex best friend would always groan and growl and act like he was in pain everytime I said I liked The Last Jedi or praised anything about it. It was so fucking cringe and annoying.
For me part of what makes the character of Anakin Skywalker special is that he is constructed by the performance of many people in live action and animated media. Even in the precuels alone he is portrayed by 3 persons (not counting doubles). Even with Hayden Christensen as the definitive pre Vader version of Anakin, Sebastian Shaw will always be the original redeemed Anakin and therefore an important part of who Anakin is as a character.
Honestly I never really noticed Hayden putting on a bit of an accent for Kenobi but I like that, it would make sense in canon since so many people in the empire have a British accent and he’s been around them for about 10 years during Kenobi and about 24-25 by return of the Jedi so I could see the accent imprinting on the way he speaks considering he rarely gets to talk without the helmet
I think that your point is accurate about how Sequel Trilogy kids will grow up to define the next era of the brand, but i will add on the wrinkle which is that by this time in the previous trilogy cycle, Clone Wars had started, which, imho, did a lot to build the mythos of that world with the target audience of Star Wars (kids who grew up with the prequels). So much of the current "Star Wars Fandom Vogue" and reassessment of the Prequel trilogy borrows a lot from how much work the Clone Wars did to expand on the concepts from those movies, and, at least right now, the Sequels don't have that kind of project. The current live action shows are set between the OT and ST eras, but do lean pretty heavily on concepts/iconography from the Original Trilogy. As one of the 12 people who really likes all of the sequels, I do kinda hope that we get passionate creatives who can make something like the Clone Wars for this new Sequel Era, flesh out more of that side of the timeline, and allow a lot of the anger and vitriol towards "New Star Wars bad. My Star Wars Better" that used to be the Prequels territory to settle down
Old man Star Wars fan here, and I could not agree more with you Quinton! I still preach the hot take of "yoda and palpatine should be above lightsabers!" Also I will NEVER forgive them for changing Boba Fett's original voice actor in Empire. Quinton I think a very similar discussion to be had concerning Boba and his latest actor Temuera Morrison. And Ashley and Ahsoka.
Would Sebastian Shaw care? I’m legitimately curious on what his position would be. Because given his work experience I don’t know if he would. I grew up with the Prequels and all that, and I can accept Anakin sounding British because he’s been surrounded by British people for 20ish years and eventually you just accept that.
I work with a guy who was a baby when the prequels finished, so he is specifically nostalgic for those, having watched them many times growing up and watched all the animated shows. Then he grew into a teen and experienced the sequels, being hype for each one, and literally says TROS is his favorite Star Wars film. I've made myself sit down and watch TROS through his eyes, trying to see what he sees, and I will admit that I sort of see it now. It's not the worst thing ever to me anymore, I don't hate it. So I can easily imagine defenders in the future and eventually fans and people nostalgic for the sequel story.
I think TROS is kind of the perfect modern Star Wars movie for a prequel kid. It’s strengths are the same as what I feel that trilogy does the best: big exciting dynamic action scenes and entertaining character banter that ensure it’ll be a fun ride even if there are plot details that can be picked apart
@@Cdr2002 And I think that's where I finally allowed myself to be okay with it. I enjoy the action set piece that is a cavalry charge on the top of a Star Destroyer, the lightsaber handoff is literally one of the coolest things in the sequel trilogy, and some of the emotional beats, such as the scene with Han Solo and in the final confrontation with Palpatine are pretty affecting. The trick is allowing yourself to be affected by them. It's not a terrible movie, but I really do just wish Disney would put their big boy pants back on and make some more films in that continuity.
@@muticere Absolutely. I have my hopes for that upcoming Rey-focused new Jedi order movie. And yeah, while I don’t love a lot of Rise of Skywalker as the conclusion to the story set up by the other two movies, it has lots of really good moments and lots of aspects that are well-executed even if I disagree with them as a writing choice for a thing to do. It’s a really fun watch if you like you said, one lets themselves relax a little
As someone who grew up with the Prequels (simultaneously with the OT), and was firmly on the hype train for the Sequels and still loves The Last Jedi, I really just cannot see any merit at all in TROS beyond half-decent spectacle, even when I try. It is one of the most cynical films I've ever seen.
I can hear it. I remember when I first watched that scene in Kenobi, I didn't think it was Hayden. We knew it was, since he was in the series earlier and all the marking hyped it up, but he put on SUCH a different voice in that scene it felt like a totally different person. I didn't think we was mimicking Shaw per say, but he did sound older, deeper, with some kind. of accent and cadence that wasn't his own, much like the performance that Shaw gave. It wouldn't surprise me if Hayden did do it as a reference on purpose since he REALLY cares about Anakin and Star Wars. Now to add a bit. of a nerdy nitpick: To me the argument about Obiwan wearing a desert disguise in EP4 has always run real hollow to me since, sure at a glance its like he's trying to look like a tusken raider. or something, but then he's still dressed like that in EP5 and EP6 as a force ghost. And when Luke is a jedi in EP6 he has black robes on. Even yoda has them in EP5 and EP6 too.
I think a problem with nostalgia for the sequel trilogy is that there's no media for that era outside the movies. The prequels had games, comics and more importantly tv shows. There have been no tv shows or games with Rey, Finn, or Poe after the movies and barely any comics or books. A lot of prequel fans say they're prequel fans but ask them why they love the prequels and 90% of the time they'll mention the clone wars. Sequel fans don't have a clone wars and that's a shame. A shame with how quickly Disney abandoned the characters and story and tried to bury it. They denied these characters a second chance for them to be loved. The sequel trilogy ended in a dumpster fire but they deserved a second chance. They had potential and something that could be salvaged, but they didn't. I think people will feel nostalgia for the mandalorian series, but it's only roughly connected to the sequel trikogy. There's a Rey series coming soon, but it should've came sooner. It's been half a decade since the rise of Skywalker.
I mean, Rey’s at Disney parks, so that’s probably something I looked up a list of characters, and apparently Boba Fett appears too. I imagine they resurrected him just so he could be part of their canon-compliant amusement park.
Do the LEGO specials and Lego Skywalker Saga game count? But yeah. I could actually see a good place for a Clone Wars-esk midquel show set in the gap between Episode 8 and 9 to flesh out the sequel trilogy characters.
Had to relearn this the hard way a couple years ago after avoiding fandom spaces for easily a decade. Just an absolutely miserable experience between 2 fandoms that still triggers me years later.
Quinton, I think I'm on the same page as you here. I never noticed or thought that Christensen was trying to sound like Shaw in his performance in the Kenobi show, but now that you pointed it out, I hear it, and I love it. That's how you bridge the gap between the prequel and the originals, not by retconning the originals but by bringing the two worlds together. (I also look forward to the day when the Sequel era is looked back on nostalgiclu gets fleshed out with more spin-offs, as I think it will add a lot to the lore. Overall I just like star wars)
It certainly is an interesting phenomena. I talk with my dad about star wars and I'm not like a prequel lover or anything but it's kind of fascinating how his childhood in the 80s shaped what star was is in a completely different way from what star wars is to me who watched it in the 2000s, and it'll probably be different again in another 20 years. I think one aspect that shows that off is boba fett. My dad grew up with an unironic love of boba fett, he thinks he's so cool. I grew up with the discourse having changed since then, "oh he's kind of a derp, he jetpacks himself into the sarlac pit"
14:09 that’s crazy because I was rewatching that movie earlier this week and thought “damn how does that guy looks just like Hayden Christiansen” I thought I was losing it
I am the youngest of 5. My oldest brother being 10 years older than me. As a result I grew up not watching the prequels but watching my brothers vhs copies of the original trilogy which meant I had the non special editions. I remember going to a friends house one day to hang out and his dad had the remasters on the tv, specifically the ending of return of the Jedi. Let me tell you I was soooo confused why Darth Vader was suddenly young again as a ghost and none of my friends could even begin to understand what I was talking about. His dad explained that they changed the movies and I got really upset thinking that my copy was also changed and I would never be able to watch the originals again
The recent SW book shadow of the sith had it where Anakin saved old luke as a force ghost and the book describes that Anakin’s appearance kept shifting between young Hayden and old Sebastian Shaw and I think not only is it cool fan service it’s just incredibly interesting and a melding of both eras and what I thought would happen in live action if it were to happen but now it’s all Hayden rn as Ahsoka depicts it
Another brand of Star Wars guy I just haven't seen in forever is the person who loves New Hope and Empire, but despises The Return of the Jedi. I'm 28 but in my teens I had a comic that was pretty much just a collection of Boba Fett short stories and in that comic was an ad for a comic run of Return that touted "Now with 100 percent less Ewoks" as a major selling point. I feel like the Expanded Universe at the time following Return was appealing directly to that flavor of nostalgia before people who saw Return as a kid grew up and started contributing. After the last of the prequels came out I remember seeing someone state something along the lines of "Star Wars is a six film series in which only two films are good" which I feel is a sentiment I don't see echoed online too often these days.
I've been saying the same thing about the next generation of Star Wars nostalgia for a few years now but I've always been afraid to say it online. The "worst" version of a franchise will always be the first, best, and most pivotal version to someone out there.
In 1993 Topps made a card depicting a younger Anakin with a baby Luke and Luke and Leia’s then unnamed mother. Lucas ordered it pulled from the set because he was making the prequels.
I went to a vintage collectibles store last week with my partner and saw that Shaw figure for the very first time. The box was low detail and just had his bald egg head on it, and when I opened the front cover to see what it was I was absolutely astounded. I didn't buy it, but it is by far one of the most unique and interesting pieces of SW merchandise I've ever seen.
honestly that bothers me more than hayden-anakin in return of the jedi. at least sebastian shaw gets to play anakin for one scene of that movie. jason wingreen’s five entire lines of boba fett dialogue are just… gone.
@@sunrise.system I'd personally say the same thing about Shaw and Wingreen's work being replaced that I do about the majority of the special edition changes - I think it's fine to make these changes and bring them in line with the prequels, IF the original versions of those performances were still widely available to see
That wouldn't have bothered me quite so much if the lines they had Temuera record to replace them didn't sound so phoned in. He's definitely done a lot better performances as Boba in recent years but those Special Edition lines.....
After watching a lot of Star Wars videos today, this was a great capstone. I've heard the idea of the Star Wars fandom's generational cycle discussed somewhat frequently for the last 7 years, but this is best summation of the concept. If we go by the division of the three trilogies, then the recurrence of this cycle is still relatively new. But this phenomena has already been observed in other franchises. For example, despite being a younger series, Pokemon has already had 9 generations (defined by new batches of Pokemon designs around every 3-4 years). The nostalgia cycle is very well understood by Pokemon fans, so it is kinda funny seeing Star Wars fans that are blind to the coming Sequel renaissance.
I had this thought about nostalgia around the same time The Last Jedi came out. I don't know or remember if it was a coincidence or it was Prequel fans taking the opportunity to say Prequels were better, but I remember seeing people nostalgic for the prequels. It was interesting. And it made me realize there was a cycle of nostalgia for Star Wars. And since Last Jedi hate was strong around this period, I came to the same conclusion that our little siblings or kids will go through the same thing. They won't see the Sequels as blemish in Star Wars but as a part of Star Wars, warts and all. The Prequels are messy, the sequels are messy, but nostalgia can bend cynicism but also create it like what happened to Original trilogy fans and, eventually, prequel fans. At the end of the day, so long as no one is getting hurt, like what you like. Your movies are not going away(unless they are written off or Special Editioned... keep back ups too).
Not a star war person remotely but this was a fascinating video. You can see this pattern play out in Pokemon discussion as well, just with a shorter timeframe. Debating anything Pokemon kind of runs into the Thing that pretty much every single discussion about which game or generation is best is decided solely by nostalgia (except for the most recent games, I think, discussions around performance and graphics feel like a new element to the conversation loop?) Fascinating to hear about original trilogy nostalgia being replaced by prequel nostalgia, and yeah, in a few years we're going to have people who grew up with the sequels old enough to defend them on the internet and be picked for that nostalgia. Odd how that works but that's what happens.
As a Star Wars fan who watched all three prequels on release night and participated in the discourse: that wasn’t why people were mainly upset. A lot of it was the dialogue and lack of character development. Like a huge portion.
Quinton you’re not alone. I also heard the Sebastian Shaw impression in that line. I feel like most don’t notice it because they don’t really think about Sebastian Shaw in that scene, it’s also pretty subtle, at least to me
Are there people that really think the sequels will always be hated? As someone who grew up with the crappy prequels and has a sense of nostalgia for that era, it only makes sense that the same thing will happen once the next batch of Star Wars fans grow up. Anyone that sees your hot take as a hot take really isn’t paying attention.
There's already some people who are willing to see the good parts of the sequels. I was born in the early 90s, so I had seen the originals several times before the prequels came out, and even I like some parts of the sequels. I like TR-8R, I like the throne room fight, I like Luke's "fight" with Kylo at the end of TLJ, I like the Holdo Maneuver, and I liked most of Kylo's scenes through the whole trilogy. There's good things in those movies, if you're willing to admit it. I have massive nostalgia for the prequels, _and_ for the originals, but even I am willing to admit that the sequels aren't entirely bad. The problem with the sequels is that they had no overarching plan, and Abrams was _too much_ of a fan of the originals, so the sequels ended up being slapdash and too reliant on nostalgia. Like, literally "clap when you see it" level stuff. Even someone like me is a little taken out of the moment when it's that bad.
The stance I see is that the sequels are too cynical and vapid in their creation to be remembered fondly, unlike the pure yet flawed prequels. I've always felt that was narrow minded. They're just way too popular to miss out on some sort of nostalgic resurgence. I will say, though, I would not be surprised if that resurgence takes a bit longer than it did for the prequels, only because it feels like we're still submerged in that era to some extent. I think nostalgia tends to favor things that are distant and abandoned to some degree.
@@PaintraSeaPeaIDK man, I agree it's very corporate and bland, but you have to remember people still eat up the MCU, I don't think it's unlikely that this vapid shit will have people saying it's great when they're older. That said, something a lot of people talk about rn is: will this generation have nostalgia in the way we all do as so much media now is designed around recreating other people's nostalgia. I find, anecdotally, a lot of young people now define themselves by a sense of No-stalgia (being nostalgic for stuff before your time) saying they were born in the wrong generation as all the media they grew up on portrayed the idealised versions of the past
As a 23-year-old who grew up with the prequels, I still find it bizarre that they're now being viewed as good movies. Like, I have plenty of nostalgia for them, but they really are not good movies. There's a lot of cool concepts, and on paper the story sounds good, but... Has anyone HEARD the dialogue in those movies? They are not well-written. Honestly I think the Clone Wars series carries the prequels and that's why they're viewed more positively now.
Same. I have a lot of nostalgia for those films but the original criticisms like those in the Plinkett Reviews are entirely valid. The films are fundamentally flawed.
Seeing a new upload from Quinton on Star Wars while building the LEGO UCS Star Destroyer was like experiencing Christmas morning again while unboxing the stuff I already got for Christmas that morning
Here before they do another cut of TPM that completely replaces Jake Lloyd with an uncanny valley model of Hayden Christensen based on his appearance in Family Passions, using an AI voice cloner of his kid voice to redo young Anakin's lines.
This is such a nice little video. Had no idea there was a Sebastian Shaw Anakin figure at any point in history (I was born months after the Special Editions). This is also just a unique SW video on this site in general. Would love more of these in the future. About that Hayden clip in Kenobi, I never registered that he was doing Shaw's voice, just thought "Oh that's his running out of breath voice." But now I can't unhear it.
I went out of my way to kind a Kenner Sebastian Shaw action figure, because I loved his performance, and also thought it was upsetting he was erased in the force ghost scene. He did such a terrific job.
honestly really interesting, i've always been kinda mixed on hayden replacing him in rotj but admittedly never gave it a ton of thought outside of kinda going with it just bc he's the most recent actor (i am more of a prequels fan than OT). sebastian really shouldn't have been replaced despite continuity or whatever out of respect for the actor alone, continuity is already rocky between the trilogies and i think that's perfectly fine. i'd also weirdly never heard the robe take before but it does kinda make sense, i'd probably just personally headcanon that he sensed via the force/yoda that luke was going to be "ready" soon and wore that to meet up with him since in rotj the other 2 are wearing similar robes implying that those are official jedi robes pre-empire. i see it as another one of a new hope's weird continuity quirks like ben supposedly not remembering r2/3po (i headcanon he's just being technical as they weren't his droids). tl;dr really interesting and refreshing perspectives bc i do agree star wars discourse is pretty homogenized nowadays
If Star Wars ever declined, it was when characters became secondary to T H E L O R E Also shoutout to that dude who said I was an NPC for even hinting at some enjoyment of the sequels.
That's something that I really feel is pervasive throughout the Disney+ stuff, post-Mando Season 1 (and aside from Andor of course). Everything feels like it's just about The Lore.
I was born in 2004 and my introduction to Star Wars was the PS3 version of LEGO Star Wars: The Complete Saga, which I got for my birthday in 2009. I watched the original trilogy first, and then I watched the prequels (you can thank my dad for that). I like Revenge of the Sith well enough, but the other two prequels? I struggled to get through them even as a 6 year old when I first watched them. I still don't have a positive opinion of them overall.
I initially thought Hayden’s broken speech pattern in kenobi was a bit odd, but after seeing your Sebastian Shaw connection the acting choice makes a lot more sense.
I thought I was losing my mind because I had the exact same experience you did regarding Sebastian Shaw just a few days ago. I was watching the change log to new fanedits of the original trilogy called the Final Cut. The goal of the edits was to basically insert all the uncontroversial special edition changes in (e.g. the enhanced lightsaber effects, the new Cloud City backdrops, "Close the blast doors!") But among those additions was Hayden at the end of RotJ with a filter or deepfake or something to make him look like he did in Ahsoka, and all the comments about it were all in favor. I was extremely fascinated because up until then I thought everybody despised that change Also, I haven't seen Obi-Wan Kenobi yet, but that absolutely is a Sebastian Shaw impression
I agree with almost everything except saying that the director of Return of the Jedi knew what he was doing, when Lucas had to step in for most of it 💀💀
Sequel apologia can't come fast enough for me. I like the prequels and sequels equally, for the complete opposite reasons. Also, having grown up with the special editions, going back and changing some stuff, specially adding things, doesn't really bother me.
The RU-vid channel HelloGreedo has done a few videos with the same sentiments as this video showing screenshots of identical fan discourse from 90's fan forums, would recommend his channel for a slightly different angle of star wars than a lot of other channels
I was a books guy haha, I grew up during that prequels are bad era and before clone wars, but the books were great, I think tossing the books out of cannon was the biggest issue I had after the disney takeover, back when I was really into star wars
So... Do those same fans want to digitally de-age Hayden Christiansen to replace Jake Lloyd in ep 1 or is that still acceptable continuity to them since they saw all the prequels as children but Sebastian Shaw is from the "old/outdated" movies? Genuinely fascinating.
@@QuintonRe2sthank you Quinton. It was cheap enough, I bought one. Great video, by the way. Kind of surprised you didn't bring up the first schism, where the six years between Star Wars(1977) and Return of the Jedi was long enough for people to have watched the first film when they were young, and the last one when they were more jaded, and those fans were angered that the Ewoks did not evoke "True Star Wars".
I was a 90s kid and while I didn't care much about SW, my best friend and her dad were so I remember the prequel era really well yeah, fans hated it so much. It blows my mind that you now get people who actually defend the films as the norm. You're spot on with the nostalgia cycle, I'm also a Pokemon fan since the 90s so I've seen it there. Gen 5 was never disliked, more like forgotten, but then the last few years you'd think it's the definitive Pokemon experience (it's not, you were just 12 when it came out!) Now the nostalgia has been moving on to gen 6, which has been absolutely hated prior.
Really love this. Super interesting and thoughtful. I got into Q’s content around his History Channel series and this has a similar vibe and I’m into it 👌🏻
I still remember my college friend group and I marathoning RedLetterMedia video essays tearing apart the prequels. He even threw a copy into the toilet.
Quinton I know you probably get imposter syndrome from having gamed the algorithm to make the main channel explode but you genuinely are a great writer and I love hearing you talk about stuff you are interested in.
My favorite byproduct of this is the cancelled Topps card from 1993 which shows early, nameless imaginings of Anakin and Padme (before they were called that), where Anakin looks like an older Mark Hamill. Like, similar to how Hamill actually ended up looking in Last Jedi.
Yeah I’m not offended by Hayden being in the original trilogies now in the same active anger way I was as a kid and my dad made a point to show me the OG stuff growing up. But it is still a haunting offense where, like… this dude was in the movie, in a way he can be visibly recognized as the actor he is, and instead he got wiped out and literally unless you know the trivia you’d have no idea it existed. It’s just a general frustration and unease about George Lucas being George Lucas, basically
My headcanon is that after 20 something years of being around british people, he got the accent like how you can gain a accent if you go to a different country for Long enough
Honestly I'm a complete weirdo because I'm 20, I grew up with the prequels and I still hate them, I prefer the originals over the prequels because the prequels honestly took something special from Star Wars in my opinion, like everytime I rewatch the originals and characters talk about the past, I'm like, "This sounds so much more interesting than what we actually got."
I just realized that Shaw is wearing the same robes as Obi-Wan when he comes back as a ghost, which implies that that really is the standard Jedi uniform. Imagine if, when he appeared, he was wearing a shiny metallic cape with stars embroidered on to it, a high collar up to his ears, thigh-high shaggy boots, a rubber unitard, and a big utility belt with a buckle that says "May the force be with you" on it.
Well, remember that Anakin grew up on Tatooine, the robes Ben Kenobi wears are almost identical to the desert robes worn by Anakin's brother, Owen. Think about it this way, when Anakin came back as a force ghost clad in the desert robes he would've worn in his younger days, before being trained by Obi Wan
a sequel nostaglia based era coming up isn't just a theory, that's just the pattern at this point. and to be honest, i am excited for it. because the prequels got retroactivly more fun with things like clone wars so if we can fill in the world around the messy hell that is the sequels (although i will defend the last Jedi to my dying day), it might improve them a bit. The current disney+ shows seem to be building background for that, so i feel like they're gradually building toward it in this case so everything feels more conencted. again, much like clonewars (and to some extend rebels too i suppose) did in the end to connect ep 3 and 4
Couldn't agree more! I actually enjoy most of the various Star Wars eras but they are ALL flawed products of their time. It seems like many people have an age where they accepted Star Wars stuff uncritically and then an age where they started critically evaluating the "new" Star Wars, realized the writers might make mistakes and bad decisions etc.
I may be outing myself as an idiot, but because I only ever watched the original trilogy as a child, I always thought that third ghost was Uncle Owen. I didn't know it was supposed to be Anakin probably until after the change was made.
so when i was younger and the prequels were no where near existing, i always thought that "darth vader's force ghost" was what he would have looked like had he never turned into vader and gotten all fucked up (but was still old). maybe i'm being unnecessarily charitable, but it was just kind of my own personal head cannon to make sense out of it.
I’m of the prequel generation but Shaw’s Anakin at the end was ingrained into my brain before Episodes II and III, and so I have a weird mixed nostalgia for 4-6 + 1 specifically. I think the clone wars made a small divide in prequel era nostalgia, because there’s barely any content around episode 1 at all or even a little before 2 in comparison, because I guess it’s too close to Lloyd’s Anakin or something. But also Lanter’s the primary Anakin for the clone wars and that is a completely different take on Anakin. I completely agree with that take about Hayden’s voice. Unmasked Shaw’s delivery is one of the most iconic things from the originals, so it would be odd to me if that wasn’t intentional at all.
I’ve seen the first six movies a ton of times and have nostalgia for all of them… but I’ve literally never noticed that Anakin’s accent in Episode VI is British lol. And I couldn’t imagine caring if I had. I love Shaw’s performance in Jedi and I’ll be really sad if it ever gets officially wiped.
That sequel trilogy nostalgia point feels more like a self fulfilling prophecy now that youve put it out there That said disney did do some shorts taking the old audio from the films and mixing it with high quality animation, a lot of people think if they ever remake the movies itd happen sort of like that
My theory for the explanation for the Jedi robes is that the Jedi dress code was basically popularized at a time where they lived mostly on a dessert planet. My guess is that planet was Jeddah.
My friend just showed me something interesting. If you turn off the color of your TV and play the Prequel Trilogy in Japanese suddenly all the awkward and insane decisions George made make sense. They're still bad, but they make sense. the stilted dialogue, harsh lighting, the sheer melodrama. They all feel like they come straight from a samurai movie.
