Setting Neck Tension for Precision Handloading - Case Neck Tension vs Performance 

Check out the Neck Tension and COAL test playlist: ru-vid.com/group/PLXl7rMHW73NOgCoSQqjlsPLdCCk2Xy2u4

I think I'll need to watch this video 7 or 8 times. Very interesting and unexpected results.

As a new reloader this stuff is fast forwarding my accuracy by years. Great work it is appreciated. I would also like to add that I cannot imagine gathering all this data testing and putting it into a video with graphs that wild! I hope people watching this understand your contribution to the reloading community.

YES! One simple improvement I found in my hunting rifles was to remove the expander ball/decapping pin from my resizing die and instead use an expander mandrel to size the necks. Winters are long up here in Alaska, so I do neck turn also...can't hurt.

After watching this video a few years ago, I started using a standard die and an expander mandrel and my MV has never been more consistent. I set my shoulder bump at 1.5 thousands and I use a mandrel that is 1.5 thousands under the bullet diameter. I also lube the bullets with hornady one shot before seating. My 6.5 PRC averages 2850 fps using the 156 grain berger, the ES is under +/- 10 fps for the 15 shot string. I am very pleased.

Thx for this video. Your previous videos on expanders have been great.

I appreciate all the hard work and effort you put in your channel. It is both entertaining and educational at the same time. I have learned a considerable amount from you work and I am truly grateful.

i do enjoy the "talking hand" videos!

Thanks, BAR, my logic aligns with the standard full-length die and expander mandrel for necks. Your production quality is superb along with the clean display of information. You rock dude.

Just getting into reloading and have been comparing videos and reviews to put together my equipment and have found your channel VERY informative. I also think "In God we trust, all others bring data" needs to be a t-shirt or AR mag. Thanks for the great content!

Great video man I agree with Satterlee. Consistency is key

Excellent information, I have been using mandals and get good results.

Thanks for sharing your videos and information.

This is an excellent video. I have been using the Lyman M die on a few different pistol cases for a while and they operate on the same principle. Not pertinent to long-range rifle accuracy, but still a very good way to handle the task of expanding the case neck JUST enough. In the case of the M die, it does so without excessively squeezing down the OD, first.

I have commented before &, assumed the way you would take my comments &, it's just dawned on me that I should explain what I think in general. I think you have an excellent channel format with your subject material & presentation. Because you test the way you do & explain all the criteria involved, I have very seriously considered your test data & will continue to do so because it's very much worth considering IMHO. You're one of the few who take the time, expense & considerable effort to present your findings on these topics in a logical & coherent manner. In short, I like your vids &, I like your style of presentation. Sincere Regards............Rotas.

I modified my Redding S die to size the neck after the round is loaded. I honed a bushing .0005 under my finished neck Dia. This gives a perfect neck wall thickness and constant tension. It message the brass to a uniform neck OD. I used to neck turn but this method is more exact. Like your videos.

Awesome video!!! Thank you for taking the time to create it. New to precision loading and was wondering which way to go. Unfortunately, I found it a bit late and already own bushing dies. Plan to order the mandrel sets from 21st Century. Thanks again

Always such of good videos

This video was a great find. I just started accuracy reloading and choose FL sizing with bushings for neck tensioning. But my first measurements where with brand new brass and I got excellent loads. Then I cleaned this once fired brass and started the process over and discovered that the neck brass thickness had changed, I did not realize this until I was at the bullet seating stage and bullets were slipping out of place! So unless I'm willing to sort once fired brass according to neck wall thickness and change bushing sizes accordingly, mandrels are the way to go.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. Very helpful.. 😎🧐🤜🏻🤛🏻

Great info - thanks!

Great informative videos ! Thank you for cutting back on using the word " actually " over and over.

Fantastic. Thank you so much.

Excellent explanation man, pretty in depth and very clear. This should alleviate a lot of confusion surrounding this topic as a lot of videos cover the hows but not the whys. Funny in today’s world of the “offended” that you’d have to put a do as you want or do what works for you disclaimer. Anyways awesome work.

I just picked up an arbor press and started reloading with Wilson dies. I was having so much fun watching the bullet getting seated with this press, I was a bit sad I was done. Lol

This is good work. I love the idea of the mandrel since I learned about it. My gut just says it makes sense. It was already near the top of my list but this seals it up pretty firmly to me. It just seems to click and I can't really explain why.

great work on all the parameters. this may be common knowledge for most but i have found a direct correlation between neck tension(maybe seating force) and tir on a loaded round. the higher the neck tension the more runout. has anyone else noticed?

Great video. I have been wondering if there is anything else I can do to make my reloads more consistent. I think regular FL sizing and a mandrel are the way to go for me!!

Most impressed by the correct pronunciation of “circumferential”.

It sounded like you covered the custom sized expander balls quickly but if not these are similar to using the expander mandrel but used inside of the bushing die. Whidden sells these.

So you should toss in another few components to balance the playing field by neck turning and reaming the inside of the case neck. What I am doing is to 1. anneal the cases, 2. then bump the shoulder back .002, 3. neck bushing size to .335 or .336 and then mandrel to .3065, 4. size the case to 2.005, bevel / chamfer, 5. Turn the neck outside to .013 - .014 using my Century 21 Power Lathe (Trick is to use a neck bushing with your fingers as you are trimming the case to slide over the case neck instead of using calipers). Math is .334 bushing - .3065 mandrel = .0275/2 = Neck wall thickness of .01375 or~ .014, 6. After neck turning squeeze the neck down with a bushing just enough to use the .306 mandrel to expand it, 7. Use a .306 twist drill to slide in the neck and give it a real quick turn while pulling the case off the bit (Typically just get a light brass dust), 8. Use a round brass case brush to clean the inside of the case neck, 9. Inspect the case neck inside, I've been averaging 2% - 3% inside neck inclusions, voids, etc. and they are real easy to see after reaming with that twist bit. It surprised me how many issues I find inside the neck.

Thanks for all your work, I wonder how lubricants effect the final size/springback, I would like to see lubricants tested, Thanks.

awesome video, i already switched to expander mandrel thank to you. now i need to buy dies for a 6br and need an advice. i want a full non bushing die but i live in italy so honed forster and harrel are excluded. whats your suggestion? thank you

Ok. Dude. I have a real question. I'm not a native speaking English/American person. And so aren't a lot of people. I'm from the other side of the water 😅 I truly understand you are and it is effortless for you to speak as you do. And although my English is 95% ok I do have some difficulties following everything you say. Not because of the language but because of the speed you're talking with. If you can remember (and if you care for that matter 😅) is it possible for you to talk just a bit slower,? I'd really appreciate it. Very great show you have dude.

great!

Great vid, I enjoyed the info & appreciate the very considerable time & effort you put in. I've already had considerable input in your 1st vid on neck tension so, I'll be brief in offering something to try which is working very well for me. Try to get finish seating force to between 20 & 30 Lbs maximum. Less if you can. Thanks again Kind regards......Rotas.

I lost my neck tensioning mind!! Great video.

id be curious to see you tweak a load (any of the test loads) to get the ES & SD down. its tough to say but it seems that if anything this test is showing the importance of keeping consistent practices when reloading. you'd almost have to see what the peak performance could be for each neck tension/method.

Can you please share the neck O.D. with your standard die, the .334, and .336 bushing before using the expander mandrel? Curious as to whether the standard die is leaving the OD smaller or larger and how spring back plays a role? Personally I only size about 60% of my necks with a bushing so have never been concerned about not getting all the way down. This leaves a better fit on the lower 30% in the chamber. Not saying that’s right but it’s what I always do. Thanks for sharing your data. I should add I also run a mandrel through as a final step before trim/chamfer.

Excellent scientific presentation. I wonder if the reason why your “standard” die seemed to work best due to the load being optimized for that combo. It would be interesting if you tried to work up a load for the next closest group which I think was the 306 / mandrel and see if you could come closer. Also would be interesting to see the effect on muzzle velocity in addition to the ES and SD values. Great work and thanks for posting this!

Isnt it sad we live in a day and age where one has to put the first warning if you will of " I'm not trying to offend you or tell you your wrong " I think the thing I see MOST different in today's world compared to when I started reloading in the 70s is we ( the new guys back then) LOVED ALL information we could get. Often it was from the "Old timers" ( to coin a phrase) but I know I ate it up. Loved their input and to be able to call on their experiences to further my craft of making my own ammo. Now with the magic google machine and everyone having a PHD in google search everyone's an expert. People often waste much time arguing about what they claim to be the correct way, NOT from experience but rather most often from some Google search results which typically is just more and more people regurgitating their own google search results rather than experience of their own. I'm happy I stumbled across your video as it's great to see someone who is into the Craft of making ammo. Just curious what do you think of Lee's assertion that crimping creates a more even tension. Lee was a big advocate for crimping EVERYTHING. Obviously to make match ammo you need to do more then just crimp. You really need a Consistent neck size on all brass internally and externally to create perfect DUPLICATABLE neck tension. But his idea that for the "general " loader to crimp after aizing and trimming them all to an exact length helped in the same general way (albeit not as good)? I'm asking as you say many new people to reloading and not all can afford specific neck tension dies. Or the Dillion ( is that a 650 or 750? I have a 750 as well ). Some are on extreme budgets. Anyway just curious how you feel about crimp?

I am a little surprised you did not anneal first with brass shot 3 times. Great video. I always enjoy them.

Thanks for the video, it makes me feel comfortable that when I do start to reload for the 1st time, my Redding FL resizing die (of my Redding deluxe 3 die kit) should work well with its built in sizing mandrel. My question is now about my bullet seating die that comes with the kit. Do I not crimp if there is no seating groove in the bullet? If this is the case and it does require a groove, how much of a crimp do I need? Crimp or no-crimp is the question next for me. I’ve heard that some target shooters don’t crimp at all as long as ammo is handled carefully and or it is not a box magazine fed rifle or auto-loader. I’ve also heard of crimping only dies that don’t need the groove thingy in the bullet to crimp, I think the groove in bullets is called a canalure or something like that? I’d be interested in your thoughts or anyones on crimping on say the .243 Win and .270 Win. Also my Redding deluxe 3 die basic set has a 3rd die that is for neck sizing only. Not sure if I’ll ever be doing any neck sizing only reloads vs FL re-sizing of brass, for it doesn’t seem as popular due to possible cartridge chambering issues?

Laughter is the best medicine ! "I am not accusing your mother of bringing a store bought pie to Thanksgiving dinner !" What a great line. Love it! The other day a guy told me: "I came home and my wife said: 'I missed you' ....I said: ' that's good !' "She said: "No ! I am re-loading!'. If not for humor I would by now be insane regards re-loading equipment. Being new to re-loading is like swimming with sharks. Am trying to work with a 300 H&H Mag. I ordered an Adjustable Case Gauge and a Case Gauge Depth Micrometer and am unsure if I even needed them??. And then there is the Expander Die Body which requires a mandrel. And then there is the Belted Magnum Re=sizing Die & Collet. What is really needed ?? I should have bought stock in reloading companies....or Amazon, UPS, FEDEX.

Do you have a way to use the expander sizing mandrel with AR platform? Would you need heavier tension? And how would you decide how much before case set back? Would using them not require a crimp?

Great video! I'd like to see how the Lee collet die stacks up against the options you show here. I've read a lot of positive things about it and I am currently using it and don't have expander mandrels. It is similar to FL die without the expander ball and a mandrel, except both ops are at the same time. btw, my Mom always has store bought pumpkin pie at Thanksgiving, so you are certainly not offending me :-)

When we talk about .002 neck tension we refer to all the calibers? As I think the shorter calibers need much more tension mostly if you seat the bullets on the lands or a short free bore. Any comments?

Just to make sure I understand properly...shooting the 6.5 creedmoor for reference...if I use the Redding standard full length sizing die, remove the decapping rod, size it, and then use the .262 expanding mandrel to set neck tension...is this what you did for your “control group”? This is what I plan to try on my next reloads...if I understand correctly...I do not need a Redding bushing die, correct?

Expander mandrel is the way to go but a pain. Extra reloading step like pistol cartridges. Had good results with Lyman M dies . I like .002 for bolt actions , .003 for Simi auto. A benefit is to have a step at top of mandrel to bullet diameter . Works similar to belling straight wall pistol cases but suggest opening the top of cases to the minimum amount that allows a good start for bullet seating. You have to experiment through trial and error. If you are satisfied with the results of your standard reloading practice don't jack with it. Don't fix what ain't broke. If you stick with good brass you would not have problems but if you load with various brands range brass for plinking . It would be helpful to you. It sucks when you are seating bullets and a case will not grip a bullet because of spring back or thin wall case neck or neck .

Great info, thank you. I am only a year into reloading but have liked using the mandrel for a lot of reasons, many of which you mentioned. It looks like we can stop using our bushings? Will this change how you do your sizing, with or without the bushing?

Is it possible to size the brass in the redding bushing die without a bushing and use an expanding mandrel instead? Or do the bushing dies require a bushing in them to use? I'm still acquiring reloading components so I haven't begun to reload yet but I already have the redding bushing die.

That mic is sounding schmick mate! Keep up the good work.

Great info, and I was with you all the way until 4:55. If you’re using a .306 mandrel to set .002 neck tension (with some minor variance for case springback) then there’s no reason to use a bushing die to tweak neck tension, right? I’m trying to get away from the bushing die unnecessary complexity and cost and being stuck with a one size fits all solution. Seems to me your .30 cal 21st Century mandrel set is the way to go, with the expander ball removed from your sizing die, then you can do the math on each lot of brass to get the perfect neck tension. That (I think) is brass OD minus neck brass thickness x2 minus whatever tension you want based on the bullet diameter. I have a good Redding micrometer seating die and wanted to use that and the mandrels to handle this instead of the S type bushing die. (?) I learn a lot each video, so thanks again. 👍 P.S. Watched the whole video and think I understand now, that with a combination of both mandrel and bushing you can tweak for optimal performance. But, I think I’m going to spend time with just the mandrels and a standard sizing die before I get this far. Great analysis though, I can see a huge amount of research went into this video.

I know you do mostly Bolt guns, But does 2 thou work for a m1a ? I get projectile creep when the bolt is driven home. thats measureable. I would think it would be more like 3-4 thou?

Great video. I've looked at it a number of times, trying to understand, simplify and reach conclusions. About 5:19 into the video you state that when sized down to 0.306" ID, that the OD is 0.335". The difference between these two is 0.029" (double wall thickness), with 1/2 of that being a wall thickness of 0.0145". What I don't understand...is when you're using a 0.337 bushing, 0.337" - 0.029" = 0.308, leaving no neck tension (0.000") at all. And if there is no neck tension, why would running a smaller mandrel (by 0.002") of 0.306" into a 0.308" neck ID accomplish anything?

Hey! What's wrong with store bought pie ?

I respect Scott S. A lot but this seems to suggest just the opposite of what his quote was. It is hard to believe that the standard full length die with expanding ball did a BETTER job of consistent neck tension. Especially after seeing the SD and ES it produced. Benchrest guys have had low SD and ES for a long time now. Just my observation. Thx for all the hard work in putting these videos together! It is appreciated

Very informative, thank you. I heard you say you full length size, than anneal, than expand. What's your opinion of this process vs anneal, than full length size, than expand?

I need to re read Glen zediker's book "reloading."

I'm going to reduce the size of my expander ball so when decapping and full resize it dosen't size the neck. Then mandrel size .002 under. That will save double handling of the cases.

Do you have the components to do a brass comparison video? Same load, same cbto, but different brass? In other words, how big is the effect if you used mixed headstamp?

I think i am having a thicky moment. I watch the video twice. Is the takeaway the standard dies were the best? I an not clear what good looks like?

I guess I need expander mandrel now

Do you crimp with your standard set up? If so, do you recommend light crimp heavy crimp?

The trimmer pilots do this for me on my Lyman universal trimmer. I trim all my brass obviously on rifle brass since it grows with each firing. It gives me 2 thousands on EVERY piece of brass no matter what kind of brass it is. Don’t need all the fancy gadgets and stuff. Just use the trimmer pilots after you’ve resized and cleaned your brass. Don’t prime your brass beforehand as there’s a ball bearing on the chuck head that centers your brass perfectly. It pops into the primer pocket to center your brass.

You didn’t mention the size that your standard FL die reduces the neck to. Could you please note that? As you noted, bushing dies do not size the entire neck. Redding’s literature suggests that several firings are required to allow the should/neck boundary to conform to the chamber. Would your tests have seen this or were the cases all previously FL sized (you said 2 firings, but not how they were sized in those firings). Finally, the amount of the neck that is sized by the bushing is adjustable, have you tried sizing less of the neck?

I realize that it is something that you can measure. But does it have an effect on group size? I've seen people weighing primers, cases, and bullets. Filling cases with oil to measure volume. Sorting aligned loads. Then place in the bottom ranks at a match. What do I know? I'm a part time mid level shot. I just like to shoot. Reloading is just a hobby, not an obsession. I would rather put resources into more shooting than shaving a tenth. So I really need to know, does it have a measurable effect on group size?

Can you go back the other way until half a thousands neck tension?

after trying almost EVERYTHING, I wound up with a honed-out Forster Full Length Die, and a 21st Century set of Mandrels to size the Case necks finally....this proved to give the most accurate neck tension, AND the LEAST runout OVERALL of the LOADED round.....everybody elsa can do what they want ....I also use Imperial Neck sizing lube on the BULLETS - - - AND ON the case necks....this works best for ME.......in my 6.5 PRC, @ 100 yards they ALL go into one ragged hole, with about a .320 " measurement.......this was using Lapua brass, CCI primers, and Nosler LR 129 gr bullets......OnWard......

Were these loads shot from a bolt action or a semiautomatic rifle?

Using a mandrel definitely makes seating bullets easier.

I dont understand shoulder bump 0.002? From where? Shouldnt it be head space, or head space against a GO gage?

What about option 5 for neck sizing, Lee collet neck sizing

An interesting find, brand X .30 caliber bullets, .3074 average for 10 slugs. Brand Z .30 caliber bullets, .3055 average for 10 slugs. Both of these examples are precision bullets. Are they really, they both varied by .005" to .009'. How are you going to get correct neck tension with quality control like that?

I love your tutorials, but have never seen any good groups come out of this?

When did you get the Dillon?

Neck tension depends on a lot of variation; brass, barrel, projectile, wall thickness and so on. Trials and errors. If it work for someone it doesn't mean it will work for you.

why not put a light crimp on the bullets. Would this not make for a consistent neck tension?

Neck tension class given the "Thing" from the Adam's Family. Thx for info.

like in support of the channel for a great informative video

The talking hand is back.

You would think a bushing and mandrel used together would preform the best... Just goes to show you never know till the data comes out.

Bring data, yes! I've often said: "In God we trust, all others, bring cash."

Are we in a full fledged Primer pandemic again?

First

What's wrong with a store bought pie

You only report one group that's small enough to be remotely interesting to a competitive shooter (or anyone else preoccupied with reloading enough to think methodically about neck tension).

Two thou of "press fit". Who would have guessed that the concensus was correct.

How dare you insult my...

Your mother WHAT?

you talked too much, but your group is too big.