Sometimes you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet, right? Merch: hyce.creator-s... Join my discord: / discord Become an ES&D Train Crew Member and get extra perks! / @hyce777
For those of you, who want to learn, and who are like "Well this tourist/museum railroad has (X) locomotive that has a wore out 567, how come they dont fix it if its that simple?" One, the obvious, funding. And two, there's many different variations of the early EMD engines, The early 567s have a lot of variation compared to the later engines. 567s were originally built by Winton Engine Works in 1938, they were designed to replace the predecessor, 201A. Winton (and before then Cleveland Engine Works) built engines for GM-EMD, Winton was purchased by GM in 1941. Until about the mid 1950s the 567s had a lot of major redesigns and revisions to fix issues they were prone to have. There were 4 567 variations that were significantly different to each other during this time, the 567V, 567W (Winton), 567A and 567B (GM). The V and W blocks are unique to their own designs and share nothing in common with any later engines (They even have a belt driven blower instead of gear drive). The A and B series were closely designed to the more modern C block, with a gear drive blower assembly but had its differences, mainly the one piece camshafts and radically different head design, and a significantly different cooling system A and B blocks can easily be determined by their square air box and crankcase covers. Then came the C block, this set the standard for EMD engines for years to come, they have round air box and crankcase covers, "modern" heads, split type camshafts, and the new power pack assembly that EMD used from there on. So the issue that museums run into with early first generation power, is that there are no parts available for the 567V/W blocks, they haven't been produced for at least 60 years. The A and B blocks were able to be sent to EMD and be "retrofitted" and "reclassed" as a 567 AC or BC block, this hasn't been a thing for at least 50 years. So if your stuck with a non-updated A or B block, if any parts fail, That's it, its done for, your not getting any replacements unless you can find NOS parts, or machine them. These blocks were very notorious for breaking camshafts (they were one piece machined instead of segmented like later EMDs) and cracking heads, along with cooling system issues. An updated AC or BC block can accept nearly all the parts a later C series engine can use, including 645 power assemblies (The engines I run at work have 16-645BC engines). These engines are significantly easier to fix and repair and can be fixed with off the shelf parts. So unless there is someone rich out there who wants to completely restart production of replacement parts for W/V/A/B blocks, the ones remaining operational are on borrowed time, any significant failure will sideline the locomotive forever, unless the entire engine assembly is replaced, which could require modifications to the electrical, frame, and air equipment on board. Another fun little tidbit: When looking at an EMD engine, for example a 16-645 E3A, The numbers before the hyphen is the number of cylinders, the number after the hyphen is the power assemblies cubic inches, The next letter is the engine family (or major revision) (E), 3 is Railroad application, and A signifies a minor revision (Like on 710s where you have G3, G3A, G3B, G3C etc) And when swapping something like a C block to 645 power assemblies, it requires not only the assemblies themselves, but revised balancers for the cam and crankshaft, otherwise, the difference in weight can make the engine literally shake itself apart.
There was a time at the shop I work at where a customer whose transmission was going out wanted to get a new one via warranty since the job was quoted at around $2,500, however he couldn't for whatever reason unless a separate party like a shop broke it. So he bribed us with Olive Garden gift cards to take his car out, I think it was an older Mercedes E350, and try to break the transmission. Behind the shop, we revved that thing to the moon and dropped it from neutral to drive, which is a great way to break an automatic, and eventually, after many minutes of pure bliss, it did. On the service ticket we wrote that it "failed under light to moderate use," and the dealership paid for labor and a new transmission. You could say that we prioritize customer service, LOL.
I think you found the best possible compromise. If that choo choo didn't break under the tender caresses of Smile Man it could probably be trusted for a few weeks until the parts arrived. There's something to be said for proof testing in such cases. Thanks for the fun story :)
That’s the point of testing this shit: try to break it, so it can’t happen accidentally (unless you give it to enough people, they’ll figure out ways to create accidents)
@@genoobtlp4424 That logic creates as many issues as it prevents, because thrashing stuff can create problems that take days or even weeks to show (that small metal chip or hairline fracture can be invisible on the day, but grenade the entire motor suddenly later), and the excessive wear isn't either accounted for in the maintenance schedule nor felt evenly. For example I've swapped oil/filters both before and after a track day and its come out blacker after than before, despite only a few hundred clicks between.. if I'd considered it a shake down and driven with that oil it would have caused failure of something before next scheduled change. Or to put it another way, you fire a proof round in a new firearm and thats good, you do NOT fire a proof round every time you reassemble it after maintenance, that would be bad.
I like how this story gave the front-line workers an opportunity to prove their point that the locomotive needed to be repaired prior to going out for duty by "breaking" it before it left. The fact that it couldn't be broken is ironic, but it demonstrated that at least one person in "management" could see things from their perspective and was willing to give them a shot. On an unrelated note, the new camera looks nice (well, the images it captures look nice--you know what I mean).😊
I would really like to hear more about the time you yelled at a guy for violating a blue flag in the shop. I think you said he got fired for other things but the blue flag/lock out-tag out violation is what stands out most in my mind.
Perhaps we need a 101 on block maintenance now, this was a great primer. Now I understand why some mechanics at my local museum say the F9, CF7 and SW8 all have (mostly) the same engine block: the 567s had the larger-bored 645 assemblies installed, even if the block itself is original. As long as the loco can pull freight, might as well get some use out of it while waiting for parts. If I'm reading correctly, BNSF downrated the GP50s as the GP25, possibly by changing the governor, gave them new, less powerful traction motors and removed the Super Series wheelslip system
Old EMDs are indestructible, man. You can run them forever on hopes and prayers, they do not care. And yeah, those modular power assemblies make life SO much easier. You can change out an entire power pack in about 4 hours (God willing) with basic hand tools, save for some special EMD specific tools, but those are easy to come by or find substitutions for in a pinch. Plenty of stuff that uses 567 blocks now runs with 645 power packs because 567 parts are getting pretty hard to come by these days, but 645 stuff is still plentiful. Reading and Northern's ex-NS F units for example. This is why I love EMDs.
RPM also increased over the years which helped power. 567 started at 800 and by the end were at 900 which is where 645 started, part of the issue with the 50s was running the 645 at 950RPM, it’s been solved now. 710 run in the low 900s or at 950 although they are design for 1000 RPM On MPI locomotives 645 got to T2 and EMD offers the 710 in upto T3
That is correct, but to be fair, 800 to 1000rpm is a 25% increase in power strokes (and 710cu vs 567cu is another 25% in displacement) engine output went up 450% in the same time. Power increase is instead mostly from higher boost pressure and increased exhaust temperatures, although this is of course cumulative with impact of better port flow, increased combustion efficiency, higher rpm and lower losses. It interest me how much trends in large diesel engines during the horsepower wars mimics the trend in piston aircraft engines during ww2, and how displacements are rising more rapidly and RPM falling again as fuel efficiency, emissions and total lifetime costs once again take over design considerations (increasing power further would have little impact on freight without increasing either train speeds or locomotive weights, although who knows what the future holds major changes to factor of adhesion could revolutionize this).
This reminds me of a recent maintenance issue I had with our work Van's, no where near as fun but here it is, So I'm handed over a van from previous shift and told it might not start and it had to be jump started earlier in the day, I'm a non van critical role that day so I'm not swapping van for someone who really needs it and we had no spares, So our Van's do regularly go flat (fridge, freezer, alarms, cctv etc etc equipment that sometimes likes to stay on) so I'm letting the van run idle while I load and unload not turning it off for well over an hour so if its charging it has a hope to build charge and sort itself out. A few hour pass of normal running and bam no start, I'm walking distance from returning Van's so I walk over grab another van and jump start it again. At this point I'm calling maintenance needing a jump in the morning is ok, during mid run nope something is wrong. Put the call in explained the situation and I'm asked will it start now? And I say yes I jumped it again let it idle for a while, I'm then told if it starts the technician will probably list it as a non fault and charge the company for the call out and do I want to continue and log the fault.... I'm like seriously? Yes it's not fit to go out. I complete the fault log and hang up, explained it to my boss who then said so it wont start right? I nodded Then proceed to return to the van and turn EVERYTHING ELECTRICAL ON left it for 20 minutes came back and the van wouldn't start and sure enough they came in and actually fixed the issue The fun of maintenance, procedures and working the system to keep everything running!
I love how you mentioned the whole cylinder assembly stuff with the big diesel engines. Some of the older two stroke detroit diesels, you can almost do the same thing. it has cylinder liners. you take the head off, take off the oil pan, take out the pistons, and then the cylinder liners, and, you put new rings on the pistons, put the piston in the new liner assembly (thats how i watched a detroit guy build up a 4-53 detroit) and you slide the assembly into the block (any Detroit guys, correct me if i am wrong) I think cylinder liners are awesome as hell. Thanks for the amazing content as always Hyce.
I've worked in a couple of situations with maintenance people who are rightfully very proud of their work. But if I need a truck to run and I've got one that is borderline operable it's going to have to start running. I think this solution was the best possible one because it lets the machinists keep pride in their work by being pretty sure it's not going to break and it also lets one of them have one hell of a time trying to break it.
Fun fact: a friend of mine who is working with me on electrical maintenance only for 3 months in our company (pretty skiled guy, he know the drill, he is mounting automatic gates for houses in his free time) have seen today electro-pneumatic valve (pretty small, no more than 6 bars of pressure and small dimensions of the piping) that overheats due to shortcut on the coil to the point that it blew off. It never happened to me for like 5 years straight, and other older guys also never has seen this before. So some valves can work years, other ones- not so much. It was fine, part was changed quickly and the machine is working again, but Mark relased the video in perfect day 😁
Typical that the one time an EMD 50 series unit might been forgiven for breaking and the thing shows uncanny reliability... we here in the UK call that sods law XD
Fun facts that maintenance with EMD is why Chicago's Metra only uses EMD locomotives for its commuters service. So much so that they are repurposing freight locomotives to passenger service instead of buying something more modern and better suited to the tighter passenger train operations. I suspect as they go into widespread operation they will have a ton of derailments like the sdp40f had back in the day
The reasons why the SDP40f was so prone to derailments (steam boiler sloshing, harmonic forces with lightweight baggage cars, and the truck bolster design) don't really apply to the SD70MACH, it's unlikely they will cause any significant problems
@@andrewreynolds4949 Fair enough, the articles I read set up the sdp40f had derailment problems because of the 3 axel bogies were too big and lack the adequate rotation capability to navigate the tight curves of major terminus stations. But but if that's just straight up incorrect then I humbly eat my words
@@stratagama That's likely the issue particularly with the Chicago area and other large termini, but something to note is the SD70MACH has much better, more flexible wheelsets than the SDP40f did. I look forward to seeing how they do; the main complaint I see about them is they're perceived as too large, too heavy, and thus too inefficient for commuter service, but I wonder if the extra axles might help with acceleration.
@@andrewreynolds4949 The middle axles are unpowered, making the MACHs A1A-A1A, like the old E-units. The energy that would have gone to them is diverted for HEP. Also, its worth noting that Metra had (technically still has, iirc) the F40C on roster. That was essentially the HEP version of the SDP40F, with six axle trucks and all. And by all accounts the F40Cs gave excellent service until retirement a few years ago (though, as noted, they MAY still have a couple in reserve).
No wonder no one ordered any more of the BL2s, the only practical option to do maintenance if something would be to take at least part of the roof off!
An excellent case of “the principle of the matter” haha. One inane shop story for me is when I was working as a welder at a restoration shop, we had one project with an argumentative customer who wanted us to cut up a pristine ‘50 Chevy fleetline coupe to put the good metal into his Swiss cheese fleetline of the same year-including cutting off the entire top of the hood car and swapping it onto the rusty rotten car. (And was painfully slow to pay.)
@@Hyce777 sentimentality I believe. (Didn’t want to swap the internals into the “new” chassis.) It was his dad’s only car from new. Granola bar rust. Frame bent like a V. Literally filled up a whole shop vac vacuuming up the floor, since welding to rust is hard haha.
It's the mentality of bosses like that has trains stalling out on the side off mountains forcing conductors to tie down 50 60 cars and every train to need dog caught but as long as so and so has good numbers who cares right.
I cant imagine dropping a valve while under load is not gonna cause A LOT more damage than just one power assembly. I don't see the turbo surviving as its almost guaranteed to send metal out the wide open exhaust ports. I'd also be curious if the piston could stay intact after smashing valves into the head a few dozen times every second it continues to rotate.
Not sure for turbo stuff but in terms of the piston no one at that level cares. That’s a machine shops problem if the piston and/or head dies as it all gets replaced simultaneously with how those engines are built.
In fact it was a pretty clever move to do such an heavy stress test. If it fails, it fails, but it didn't, more confidently proving that it could go back to work.
These stories are always fun because it relates so much to my work. I build locomotive pod generators, we have the same stresses working on these as Hyce did. Sometimes we just have to rush them trying to get them built and through testing because a customer has a locomotive down.
Hey so I have a question, when you guys would change PAs, did you always change them as a head, liner, piston, and the conn rod? I'm curious because where I work, we usually change PAs as "minis" (meaning without the rod). We only do "maxis" (with the rod) when there's been damage to the rod.
@Hyce777 I see. I can somewhat imagine both ways being beneficial. Pulling the snap ring out from under the piston carrier (and even more so getting it back in) can be a next level pain in the butt so it might save some man hours to just pull the rod too and call it a day. But the flipside of that would have to be that, in order to pull a blade rod, you'd then have to pull the basket rod side first, so now you'd have to do twice the work.
I didn't get a chance to see this the day it came out but I'm glade I'd didn't. Now I have several videos I can watch while recovering for wisdom tooth surgery
Mark the fates were playing, if you didn’t want it to break guess what?! 😂 That was a fun story. Also liked your instructional description of the valves and all that. Not knowing much about diesel choo choos I really appreciated this. The new web cam is fab echo a shout out thanks to Chris Gill! Also liking the new T shirt can’t wait to get one and seeing the new store! As always many thanks Professor for sharing your shop stories-you’re an awesome storyteller. As always cheers to you my friend!
Well, I thought that workshops have lots of broken stuff in them, so why not take out the good part and move the broken one in. Or maybe try to break something else, maybe even help it a little and make it like "Oh, we were testing the engine, but as it was at high RPMs, this thingy broke." way.
Surprisingly, some EMD 710s were able to somehow meet Tier 2, CPKCs GP-20C-ECOs are examples of this (although they went with T0+ to cut costs) EMD have also apparently, somehow got the 710G to meet Tier 4 for use in marine applications
Love the shop stories! Always entertaining and just imagining the smile and joy of the machinist getting to spend his whole day trying his hardest to break the Choo Choo. I bet he had that ol diesel singin! 🎶 My luck though, I’d have thrown a rod out the side of the block, lol.
I think the GP40X became the GP50. The wheel slip control was a doppler RADAR pointed at the ground and a comparator that compared the RADAR speed to the wheel speed. In the late 1970s it was "cutting edge" for the ATSF. Doppler RADAR is not all that accurate and the whole system was kind of janky anyway.
LoL Its like walking up to someone. "HHeeeeeeyyyyyy, how you doing" Tom you like breaking stuff XD break that train do what ever it takes. LoL I laughing so hard at that.
I mean, clearly the locomotive heard you tell Mr. Smiley, and it was just gonna hang in there out of nothing but all the pure, unadulterated spite an EMD product can muster... lol
Seems reasonable... Stress test as hard as you have means because you can only do so much to try and ensure that it's in good operating condition when you don't have the right parts. At least then if it goes back and blows up you did the best and you told people the risk.
My Grandfather was jr vp for emd rebuild division in Chicago and I heard stories and saw pictures of some incredible things. Some of the pics looked like King Kong grabbed a gp 20 and twisted it like warm taffy. Ever see an sd 25 bent into a u shape. Thats what happens when lift cables break.
Of course had you just gone ah what are the odds and just released it the loco would have grenaded the prime mover moving it to the ready track. Remember hearing about the issues with the SD and GP50s. Remember when the GP50s were point on just about every hot train and then they weren't. Funny thing was last year or the year before post from Illinois Railway Museum pops up on my Facebook feed announcing their acquisition of a CNW SD50. In my head I'm thinking that can't be because museums are supposed to have locomotives that were out of service or obsolete before my birth or running out their last revenue miles as a teen not the new locomotives me and my crew chased in our mid and late 20s.
Oh, yeah; this image quality is super good, even my crappy connection only handling 720p. Do you do your own editing, or do you 'have an editor' for these story times and the model building videos? The call to 'set it up and break it' was the correct one. If there's a suspicion it'll fail DURING A JOB, and cost more headache and money, break that baystard. Then it doesn't break, nice. If we don't have the info how long a failure will 'last' before catastrophe, though, we still need that data (as engineers). I will always err on the side of caution when it comes to repairs and preventative maintenance, myself.
I edit all of my own stuff. Sometimes I get Nick Ozorak to add a little spice for bigger jobs and the Walthers series but that's few and far between these days.
please do a video on the porters steam loco the Japanese class d5, the Chinese QJ 2,10,2 or just exsamples of asian trains how do gear trains work something on saddle bolier and side tanks (like the big water boxes) tank engines double ended diesel trains (and electric) eletric trains American and European switches other then the British class 07-09 what to do if the train stalls one talking about the different types of steam funnles and there uses, steam locomotive combination breaks (steam and vacuum brakes) the breaks commonly on wagons that you turn like a valve/leaver mechanical breaks a short video on how a Armstrong turn table works what did train flagman do what did trains (mostly steam) do when going in tunnels, ive heard of gas masks or just useing a wet cloth, or did they bring in other engines like later on they used electric trains, or were there no bigv tunnels. evaluation of electric trains why are some trains wagion tops (the stream lining thing to boilers) railway terms abd slang one on the meaning of flag and lantern colors like green on rear engine means theres another one coming soon, the different types of cut offs/reversers/Johnson bar some are a big lever, some are a big valve wheel, and ive also seen some that are like rods, one exsample is train sim world 3 and im not sure where to find the other reverser wet vs dry/saturated vs super steam,
@@czechgop7631 yea .. But its and idea for resurch videos... This is also a copy and paste list i send to multiple train channels, i have another on combat and traditional wepons, and one on history/ modern combat that i post to alot of different channels l, some would do the whole list others might only do the modern bits ect, I originally had suport for it, some were helpful and answered questions for me, This month ive had backlash, Its anoying but i get over it because there arguments are removed by he fact it takes 2 seconds to scroll past me if they find my comment again yt spend an hour having a mostly civilized conversation with me wich i appreciate, and if i do this on multiple videos across multiple channels theres a higher chance one will see it and i can stop on thag channel unless i add s significant amount more to the lists or s significant amount of channels find the list then i can stop entirely until once again i create a long list of other ideas... Ty for reading it all btw, some are too lazy and say "yea im bot reading all that" *in homer Simpson whispering voice* "incase you can't tell i used to acsadntly do 3x the amount of essays" 😁
@@theromanorder I get where you're coming from. Pasting such lists into comments is problematic because the chances of the creator seeing it are smaller than chances of it annoying some commenters. Maybe a better way would be to shoot Hyce an email. Also requesting specific input on a subject is fine, but for general information it's advisable to use Google instead
@@czechgop7631 hyce has a public email? And true about the google thing, I geuss i haven't done lots of my own research because i started these lists when i was in my decline/ semi depressed (im doing a bit better slowly getting stronger) But i might soon start to research my lists and make videos myself, my problem is lack of access to editing and recording tools, but hey, i have audio so it would work for my purposes, filling the blanks in my playlists
@@theromanorder It's probably better to ask Hyce about things he actually knows about/has experience with; For example, I don't think he knows hardly anything about Asian locomotives, or European ones for that matter
The new camera looks great .. Does anyone from BNSF ever give you crap for sharing these stories ?? Also , I believe it was the old GE engines that used to catch fire on a daily basis ...
No one from BNSF has ever messaged me about any of this stuff, save for an old machinist of mine who now works out of Pasco, WA and he's usually just catching up and wanting to talk lol
EMD engines have an individual head for each cylinder (power assembly) and they are held in the block by clamps which are called 'crabs' because they are shaped in a slight curve and when viewed from above they look like a crab claw. The crabs sit on a 'crab stud' or 'crab bolt' and are themselves held down by a 'crab nut'. Some parts in the injector and valve rocker assembly also look like claws are can also be called 'crabs'.
Is this whislindiesels or is this whistlintrains instead of hitting a truck with a hammer or something stupid why not hit to fix the damn damaged locomotive . Yeah just hit the damaged locomotive rather than hitting a damaged truck 14:23 COME ON DUDE CAN A BIRD HIT A LOSE NEST lol 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@nicholasdowns3502 it also makes loco go bang much faster also water in fuel lines would put out the fire and fill the smokebox and firebox with water
That makes sense. The guy tried to break it on purpose, could not do it, that means that most likely the locomotive was good enough to be used. Especially since, as I understand it, it would not have been a huge deal if it broke while it was being used.
poor tom. if i was told "see that thing? im gonna look the other way and everyone else will too, you have five hours to break it. go nuts" i would be fuming if i couldnt cause something to budge and break
The camera looks so much better, We get a better view its running at 60fps, and It looks like better effects too. It is definitely better for the channel and I am happy to help. 😁 It's good enough to read the text on the boxes on the shelves behind you lol.
Hearing about the EMD power assemblies it really makes sense on the longevity of those EMD units. Seeing GP7/9 still working on short lines and grain elevators when their contemporaries from GE, Alco, and others were scrapped decades ago. Also pulling power assemblies (as well as foot crew safety) played into ATSF rebuilding all those F7's into CF7's. Great shop talk a usual Hyse.
I'm amused that you had to tell him to break it. Any crew I've worked in, it'd be: "We've been given X hours to test it, to make sure it doesn't *emphasis* break. If it *emphasis* breaks, they can't won't release it." "Oh, yes, we need to be sure it won't *emphasis* break, gotcha boss, I'll test it REAL thoroughly."