The blueing of the plate hit close to home for me. My grandfather was born in 1934 and after the second WW in 1949 he needed to learn a profession. He wanted to become a radio technician for all kinds of communication systems. However this was concidered "womens work" back in the day. So he got an apprenticeship at a local machine shop called Zahnrad Müller. Beeing loacated in Eastern Germany our hometown Leipzig was hit pretty hard by allied bombardement. So my granddad spend his first month shoveling bricks and fixing the machines with the few machinists that returned from war. I remember him telling me a story about him and a fellow apprentice where they would try to fool their teacher by laying on a thick layer of blue onto the surface plate. When he would catch them do it (he did most of the time) he would let them redo the part and after work the needed to clean the blacksmiths shop that was, back then, still a part of the machine shop. They company still exists and he's invited to their christmas parties. He's the last emplye left of his generation and they enjoy listenging to his stories as much as i do. I'm not a machinist but i remember all the things he has taught me about machining and metall when i'm in my shop making knives.
I understand it's been some time since you left your comment but I'm just now stumbling upon this video and comment section. I lost both my grandfather's very young and their stories only survive through word of mouth by my father and I. I wonder if your grandfather would be willing to sit down and record some of his stories with you perhaps on video or audio for folks like me who still enjoy hearing stories from old timers. One of my best friends and I went to a deer camp with his grandfather who is in his mid 80s and I sat around there for a couple days listening to stories from his military service all the way up to him working in a grocery store just a few years ago. Can't get enough of it... anyway I hope this comment finds you and your grandfather well, may you both live long and happy.
You know.. I remember watching this video four years ago and just happened upon it again because I'm in the market for a Chineseum Kurtalike and suddenly it's easy to see how far your editing and videos have come. I mean, they were good in 2016, but they are a thousand times better now - kudos to ToT.
Great video Tony! I enjoyed the breakdown and inspection of this vise. I have an 8" Vertex super spacer and have always been pleased with the build quality.
tony you know i have a deep respect for your work. you are the walking demonstration that knowledge can go with humor (as opposed to use comedy as a tool to hide lack of depth). kudos for you. pete ps: these numbers for that price, man you are at the end of the rainbow
Do I understand correctly that the fixed jaw is leaning towards the moving jaw? Then I wouldnt do anything to it! Reason? Under clamping pressure the fixed jaw will bend away anyway and get quite straight anyway. Measuring the movement of the fixed jaw was something that we did during apprenticeship...maybe I should do a video on it ;) I did scrape in a vice a few years ago - Thats what I call going down a rabbit hole ;) But as we seen again, the Vertex stuff is quite Ok. Thanks for sharing!
So much effort to build a robot for disassembly of the vice! Very impressive editing. I'm particularly impressed with the allen key pneumatic rotation for undoing internal hex head bolts. I really appreciate your attention to detail and wonderful humour.
Just a little tip I picked up along the way. If you take apart any CD or DVD playing device you can find two small neodymium magnets around the laser lense. They're used to position the focusing assembly. If you set one of those little buggers in that V notch on your measuring device it will hold the bearing in place so you won't have to go chasing it. Oh, and in the future, don't be so blue. You may find that other colors that contrast against the metal a little better. Still love the channel. Bright blessings over the holidays for you and your family.
Could that inward cant of the fixed jaw be intentional? As the clamping force increases, the jaw becomes truer. After all, you want the jaw to be true when the workpiece is clamped in place. Not only that, the rise of the "fixed" jaw matches the rise of the moveable jaw. As you pointed out in STP#1, the needs and economics of a small shop/hobbyist are different than those of a large production shop. Buying an inexpensive vise (or drill press) and tuning it up substitutes some of your time for quite a bit of cash. I believe Randy Richards (In The Shop) did something similar with an inexpensive spindexer. Unless the basic castings are trash (some are) the main differences between cheap and top-of-the-line are in the machining and finishing.
3:29 Another hypothesis: the factory uses one of those rotating-belt selectable-digit stamps, like they used to use to stamp check-out dates in the back of library books.
I have gotten in the habbit of going ahead and liking your videos so in case I forget. I'm horrible at remembering to do so with a short series. After viewing this video in it's entirety I found I have no reason to unlike it. Nice work as usual. I always enjoy your videos and find a sick sort of comfort hearing your voice. Much like watching the evening news with Walter Cronkite. Keep up the good work.
I've bought quite a few vertex tools over the years and have found the quality to be good. I've got the 6" x 12" modular vice on my Lagun Mill and I really like it.
Tony, thank you for saying what I've always wanted to about the word maths. You have quickly become one of my absolute favorite machining/everything else channels. Keep it up!
If you want to be pedantic about it - the Mathematics isn't english at all ... it's ancient greek, and it's about everything - not just numbers - so like it or not - math is a singular - and in this context a bit like bit - a math is part of a single point of data not the whole stream. English spells colour American says it's color - and it's London and Paris ... not Londonengladnd or Parisfrance. chamfer is french and should be pronounced SHamfer ... not CHamfer (as in CHip). I could go on and on and on and on ... and on ... but what would be the point? English is a living language cobbled together from 100s of other languages, just 2 miles down the road people pronounce words different to me ... nobody loses sleep (although 100 years ago Bradford people threw stones at folk fron Halifax). In english and more to the point language in general ... it's whatever people agree it is - old words drop out and new words are added all the time.
@Roderick storey American: Why do you English call the flashlight a torch? It doesn't have a fire on it. Englishman: Why do you call it a flashlight? It doesn't flash. or Christian man to a Hindu: Why don't you have a special sabbath day for God once a week? Hindu man: Why do Christians limit God to one day a week? Sometimes there is more than one way to be right. Oh, and Tony rocks!
Hi mate. First and fore most, kudos for your wife, on prioritising a mill for the shop. Clearly she has a good grasp on what is important. I fully agree with your disclaimer, if you expect a $1000. vice for a mere $150 just because it comes from China, than one should have a reality check. I have often said that one buys the raw ingredients, and bring it up to the specification you want or need. I was also very surprised at how well this vice measured, something must be wrong with your marble plate. All 'n' all very happy for you with the results.
I was just about to pull the trigger on one of these, and had a quick hunt round for reviews and opinions, and it was a very pleasant surprise to find a video from ToT. It was an even more pleasant surprise to see his measured specs. I feel happy going ahead now.
Great stuff. Much more entertaining than I expected. The clean up with robot was awesome. Also the reference to our good friend AvE. Gentlemen, Welcome back to the shop!
I get my vice as true as possible but always indicate the part. If the spindle isn’t trammed in perfect it will show up on the indicator. Also on old machines the table has wear from years of stoning. On our EZ-Track we usually mill a pocket to set the part into ensuring perpendicularly. You got to look for spindle runout as well especially on these old mills. Vices are good for quick and dirty set up. Love your videos.
So entertaining and educational, thanks for making these videos. I found your channel couple weeks ago, and have been going through tens of videos since then. I'm glad that I'm just scratching the surface and there is plenty of these left. (I guess that is benefit to joining late to the party). I graduated little over year ago as mechanical engineer (have been drawing blue prints for 2 years now) so these hit me right to the heart. And your humor is just the best, I love it.
When you started indicating The Vice that blew my mind I did not think it would be within tolerance like that. Then when you busted out the tenths indicator and that blew my mind more. I was just as surprised as you. I too am curious how it would have been with t-nuts locked on to it especially after seeing the bottom
Great video, Tony! You had me laughing out loud on the CNC vise disassembly. That was a well conducted and edited test of the vise, maybe the best shop floor metrology test video I have seen.
I know others have already commented about AvEs' outro phrase, "keep your dick in a vice," but I still find it find it fun and cheeky that you'd make a joke about it. I know AvE's Channel has really opened my eyes to this niche of youtube videos, but I find both your channel and his to be very fun to watch. Thanks for the video's and keep it up.
Great video. I bought the 8" version of your vice a year or so ago. Although I didn't give it the comprehensive analysis you did, I was really pleased with the accuracy when compared to the well used European machine vice that I had been using on my Bridgeport.
This was actually very informative. I do a lot of bench work as I don't have a milling machine and was looking for something to hold smaller parts square while using hand tools. Sounds like a cheap mill vise bolted to the table will do just fine for my hand filing and chiseling. No need to go the extra expense of the high end vises for hand tools.
Hey Tony...im from the year 2021. Guess what??? You got a new 6" vice!! It's still not a Kurt(because of that W.I.F.E. syndrome you suffer from!) Might want to get that checked out! Anyways...congrats on the new vice!! Cya in 2021!!
I can remember our Inspection department being considered the most boring placing in the building. Even the people who worked there staid, just a little bumptious, and it would have been torturous to have to listen to them talk about their work. And yet, you made it interesting, which is a pretty neat trick.
Geez, you go to a lot of trouble making your videos. I love your sense of humor and it also comes with some good information. :-) Keep 'em coming Tony.
4 years late but you also had to factor in the fact that this was checked 3 years before you bought it (2013) so maybe temp differences while stored, pressure from other vices stored on top of it in the warehouse for all those years and a good UPS/USPS "thow treatment" may have been an influence for those minuscule difference that you detected :P
love the effort you put in to your videos...and appreciate the dry humor. Actual actionable education, as opposed to the bizarre rantings of the other channel to which you reference. I always look forward to your next installment--my favorite machining u-tubes!
thanks for taking time to do this. I got feed up with all tool and die guys downplaying them. With this vises and price... I will not cry if something happens and it does happen even to the best machinists. specially on CNC machines. thanks
I myself have 4 vices. Smoking, drinking, and wild women.. When the wife found/caught yours truly chasing a 3rd vice vice around the workshop, I was quickly introduced to the 4th vice. She turned into a 200 pound gorilla and showed me where the rubber meets the road. In other words, she put my dinger where ya wouldn't put your finger.. Love both your vijayos. Just different styles towards a similar end. Cheers. K
Should used the squareness indicator set up on end block of the vise while on the surface plate.. You really didn't validate square on the block by itself. The rising of the 1-2-3 block while increasing clamping pressure would be flexing in the base as my guess. It's a very interesting evaluation... Wonder how it compares to better vice.
Who knew? I think I understand why your wife is helping you hunt for a new mill. Thanks for taking the time to show us you new robot tricks. That was pretty cool!
Very entertaining video. Loved the comments about the mill and the earwax at the start. Nice to know that you can pick one of these vices up and they won't be too far out of whack for casual work without a lot of massaging. And I hate "maths" too.
Hey Tony , nice subject manner, you have inspired me to get out and check my bargain priced vise. Nice explanation of the shortcomings of the finished surfaces.
I see you posted this a year ago. My experience with Vertex brand is very good quality. When you do get that mill, look at their H/V rotating tables. I have a 12 inch and 6 inch. The worms are very tight tolerance. I like this video, no time wasting music intro. Nice Frank Howarth animations. I'm just now getting into surface plate techniques, thanks.
Tony, it would be worth closely inspecting the fitment and smoothness of the mating surfaces of the pocket and hemispherical wedge doohickies that drive the moving jaw, incase they're rough and bindy uppy, not pulling down with as much force as they potentially could. I bought a similar 5" (but way lower quality than Vertex), Kurt knock off and thought it could definitely be smoothed and improved underneath.
2:00 Nice Pick-'n'-Place, I especially liked the pneumatic Allen Wrench. I know, old video, You mightn't ever see that comment, Tony. But I'm rewatching all your old Goodies right now. It's September of 2022 btw.
Thanks so much for this Tony, ive been looking at these vises at the machine warehouse here in perth and they seem to be the best quality to buy for my price range but i was curious as to how well they were out of the box Cheers Troy
WARNING ON VA4's. I recently got one of these, while squareness and flatness were not a problem it has developed a crack on the base on left hand side, below the fixed jaw,kinda starting where they take the relief grind to allow clearance for removable jaw.Could be a one of(could be a air pocket or inclusion in the casting , who knows?) but INSPECT THIS AREA closely if you get one. Ive not had it super long or done any serious work, my mills not very powerful at all, max 20mm end mill.Only became apparent yesterday, i had been just doing some light surfacing, obviously i clean religiously between moving work so i noticed it as soon as it formed, at first i thought it was a chip.I bought this from a retailer(for reasons like this) rather than direct so i will be returning and getting a replacement.Otherwise i do like the vise a lot. Ive uploaded a pic because hard for me to describe location. ibb.co/ZLYFk93
Hi Tony- Love your channel. I noticed when you did the squareness measurement of the vise jaws you used a ball bearing as a bumper. I'll have to keep that method in mind. The way I usually measure squareness is to turn around the rod in the surface gauge and used the ball end of the rod as the bumper directly below the indicator tip. Keep up the great videos - especially the quirky humor.
Thanks Keith.. never thought about the ball end! Only down side I can think of is the ball end will move when you adjust the 'mast' -- but like I said, I'll have to try it and see. Thanks for watching!
Loved this one. I got me one of those imports after watching this video. I too pulled it apart and did the same measurements. I did notice that some of the error you got might get removed when you torque the stationary block down to 100ft/lbs or so. There is a video out there on the Kurt Vise rebuild kit, where the instructions have you torque the stationary block down in stages, based on the torque of the movable jaw. A 6" vise goes to 150ft/lbs on those bolts staging at 5ft/lbs first. I did remember your bluing check, which is why I kept looking until I found you again. By the way, what kind of allen wrench did you use in the intro? Was it a Steve or a Tim?
HOLY CRAP! Our next door neighbor and baby sitter from the UK used to ask every friggin day....."Have you done your maths yet dear?" It made me wanna run head first into the end of an anvil....you know, the pointy Texas longhorn looking end. Not the blunt older brothers favorite survivable end :) Not that I know anything like that.... Oh, and thanks for the info on the surprisingly accurate mill vise! Have a nice day, G.
I am learning to be a machinist in my old age so nice informative video. Since, I am a mathematician and other notable things, I have to inform you that the English say "maths" while us Americans say "math". The meaning being the same.
Great vid Tony...lots of info and had me laughing. I was disappointed that you didn't decide to turn it into a scraping project though. I'm looking forward to more videos!
I found exactly same vise (all details match down to bolts, paint and name) at KBC tools. It is branded as "BEMATO" on cardboard box it came in. Looks like BEMATO is an importing company in Detroit. That one is NOT labelled as "VERTEX", no test certificate, but same cardboard box and looks exactly same in all other details. They do say it is made in Taiwan and I believe Vertex is also made in Taiwan.
Got a similar ang lock vice recently, it was warped so badly (spec 1. : 66um error in height)I needed to run run a big end mill over it until it was flat < 3um difference in height. I expected a mill would need a grinding stone for finishing but taking it really slow did wonders regarding in surface finish.. also its mandatory to fix vices with rediculous low feeds to prevent heat being put into it which may cause height differences when cooled down again.
At 16:40 the fixed jaw also moves up... the two bolts are low grade and stretching longer. Need grade 8 or better, and need oversize them. .... Heck, I don't know, just a guess.... but I did turn 70 last year. !!
That thing has only 2 moving parts, but it's trueness is so important. Thanks for showing how to check it. I love the disassembly scene. Cheers. Oh, wait. A 1-2-3 block has no moving parts. Just a question about them: Are your 1-2-3 blocks dimentioned 25mm, 50mm, 75mm, and have a 3/8" thread in the odd holes? Isn't that a bit weird? Why would the manufacturer tap an Imperial thread in a Metric block?
Great timing. I was just about to order one of those import vises and I've been wondering how to check it before I put it to use. Too bad it wasn't a project after all or I would have had a great lesson on tuning them up. I need to put my grinder to use, and odds are I'll have a chance. :)
Thanks for the vid, I have the 5 inch version and although not measured tolerances I'm happy with clamping and seems to work well. btw they are made in Taiwan :-)
I'm thinking this is somewhat like the hydraulic servos on the Woodward hydraulic governors. The pistons will bind in a lot of them until the servo is bolted to the power case then super slide! The real test will be when it is bolted to the mill table.
good quality vises are always tapered to account for the clamping force. Also... good quality vises will always indicate you exactly what kind of torque they're expecting. Good quality vises would tell you that number in Nm.
Again! - real engineering I mean, I like "gorilla like" enginuity in keeping costs low and nonsensical jokes but... this is the kind of engineering that I would like to get in touch more and what I'm looking for.
I got the kurts vise d688 for the haas mini. I should have checked it. it was a christmas special about 2 yrs ago. hold power is stupid good i have no issues but out of the box check would hve been good to know.. nice vid as always.
Juan - I saw a report that Taiwan is trying to follow Japan in it's reputation for quality. They are fining companies that don't produce goods up to the very high standards they are shooting for. In the last few years the tooling coming out of Taiwan has been outstanding! Good observation!
Juan, that's been my experience also and Vertex in particular are consistently excellent quality for the money. They make a huge range too. Taiwan has been the best producer of p.c. components like motherboards for decades. I think they had a bit of economic help from the rest of us like the Koreans with their Kaesong Industrial Region near the North/South border as a diplomatic effort to stop them nuking each other.
The Vertex AngLoc.and the KBC AngLoc are made by the same company in Tiawan. Reasonably good quality, but the KBC vice is around $1000 less money, comes wirh circular base, but no spec sheet.
Didn't make it for breakfast but lunch was a real treat!! I always appreciate the way you delve into metrology to ferret out the culprits with a lot of humor! Thanks for shootin' it with us...amazing for the price! How was the turntable? Hope you keep up the STP series...good learning, made fun! Thanks very much Tony. ~PJ
Hey Tony, I actuall found your channel a few weeks ago and subscribed immediately. Later I found out you live in germany for some reason... (Dont know if you already explained but I am curious to what the reason is, since I am in germany as well) Anyway, I didnt post for a very long time on youtube (to make up for it, this is a longer one), but this video got me shocked so much that I just feel I had to write my stuff down here... When I started watching this video about a "cheap import vise" I recognized this vise! Its the same vise I use at my work as a machinist for 4 years now. Its from a different manufacterer and there is a sticker which says "Made in Germany" but EVERYTHING else is the same, even the quality papers and the stamps which say +/-0,01 So, if someone is interested in a long term review from a somewhat professional use: It still does the job very well, but on the inside there is this angled surface which is pressing against a half-ball shaped thingy, which helps pressing down the non-fixed chuck... this angled shaped side wears down or gets bend... thats the only downside I found so far... but you can fix is by cutting off a few millimeters on the mill...
Also, when you stone the surfaces, you’re taking off just a touch of metal, on both sides. It’s not unreasonable to assume that honing four surfaces (both sides of the key, and both sides of the slot) will take off at least a couple of tenths, which is why your measurement error increased by a few tenths after that was done.
