Short Cranks Solve Everything with Chris Balser/ BikeFit Guru

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In this episode of #fitmatters I talk about short cranks with Chris Balser from BikeFit Guru in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
Short cranks have been the topic of discussion across many different disciplines and are touted as being the cure for everything on the bike.
Chris and I discuss both the positive and the negative implications of using short cranks. When they might work and when they might not.
If you have thoughts or comments about short cranks please leave them in the comments.
Referenced in the show:
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Appleman Cranks
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BikeFit Guru - Chris Balser
www.bicyclefit...
BikeBody Balance
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Опубликовано:

3 окт 2024

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Комментарии : 88

@derek75116 Месяц назад

Im 53 years of age, 24hr endurance record to my name, over 1million kms covered in my life. A classic book on pedal stroke i read was Bernard Hinault’s Road racing. He co developed with Look the clipless pedal system. Much of what is discussed here youll find in his book from 30 years ago. A big big BIG point that is seldom discussed is the importance of body maintenance . Any sport practiced to an enthusiast level requires maintenance. Enthusiast levels change our bodies from the norm, being walking, running, perhaps gardening etc. The maintenance Im talking about is Stretching !Most of us know its the proper thing to do but don’t spend anywhere near the justified time doing it. Stretching is very close to a meditation , its a conversation with yourself, it cant be purchased like a protein shake, and doesn’t make for interesting conversation during early morning training rides with mates. In this video I found it refreshing when the bike fitter said your body shouldn’t be so sensitive that the saddle has to be millimetre perfect. In Hinault’s book he talks about lowering the saddle by about 5mm being a radical change but I think this was for power reasons and utilising more of the pedal stroke. Im about to reward myself with my first ever Carbon build bike and found myself swayed by popular opinion to go ‘Pogacar short’ on crank length to assess what all the noise is about.. Im 6,3” , 190cm but inseam 94cm ! Most of it Femur. All my life ive been 175/177.5 . I might go to a bike fitter and be told I could go shorter cranks to enhance a smoother pedal stroke but I also know im not stretching as much as i used to! Body maintenance is not a sexy topic and was hardly discussed even by these two guys. Like the cycle coach said “don’t drive to close to the guard rail”. It is very possible that many of us try the shorter crank idea and it feel great but imperceptible the window of movement will close in again with out adequate body maintenance.

@stevebassett8944 Год назад

Great conversation. More people need to be aware of this issue. I bought a trek road bike in 2014, still have this as my only bike, love it, but it came with 175 cranks. I always thought they were long, I had issues coming over the top of stroke. It caused knee pain. I finally put two and two together, and after paying attention and watching video by Cam Nichollis, I installed 165's yesterday, went for a ride this morning, and WOW, should have done this years ago, what a treat, easy pedal stroke, higher cadence, more speed, and most importantly no knee pain. Anyways thanks for educating people on this whole issue

@___Bebo___ Год назад

I'm 6 foot 1 and only ride 165s. 165 was the original bike crank length for everyone. When non athletes go over 165 it causes problems.

@muradtalukdar4401 3 месяца назад

Does it matter height wise? I'm 170cm and moving down to 170 years ago made a big difference. I've never ridden 165 though.

@stevebassett8944 3 месяца назад

@@muradtalukdar4401 I'm 174cm and the bike is medium 54cm frame. That bike should have came with 170 cranks not 175cm. Anyways, now I know, I'm super happy with 165's. I have a new bike now, I purposely bought it as a frameset so I could put on the cranks I want, not what is on the builders shelf. I don't know if one would be able to tell difference between 165 and 170 cranks, but if you are having some issues........ it just might help

@brothatwasepic Месяц назад

Hi guys i went for shorter carbon power meter cranks and it solved everything including it solved my problem of having a small savings in my bank account ❤❤❤❤

@bikebodybalance Месяц назад

You could have solved any future problems too, by getting the Titanium ones instead 🙂

@brothatwasepic Месяц назад

@@bikebodybalance haha so true

@cuebj 9 дней назад

I completely forgot to request 165mm cranks when my 2018 Ultegra was recalled and replaced earlier this year. Shame.

@doncompton9453 11 месяцев назад

At 71yo I was having a problem riding at a decent cadence. I had been using 175s for over 30 years. I discovered that I have arthritis in my hips. Going to 165s and raising my saddle 1cm really helped me. I definitely felt a difference immediately and liked it. But it took me a while to get used to the difference at very low cadence. After 9 months, I wished I would have done it 30 years ago. The new position has also relieved some of the back pain I had experienced. Total win win for me. I have short femurs and my saddle height is 76.5 cm.

@howardbrouwer7463 2 месяца назад

I am 6 ft 2 and ride 165mm cranks because of a severe hip from years of truck driving. absolutely made a huge difference from my 175 mm, and very thankful my bike fitter recommended the switch. If I have to pick one thing I notice is maybe a slight slower start with the short cranks, but the freedom in my hips allows me to spin much faster cadence easily into the 120z

@bikebodybalance 2 месяца назад

With any type of dysfunctional hip shorter cranks may offer an increased range of motion. What do you mean by 'a slightly slower start'? It takes you longer to warm-up? The shorter the crank the smaller circumference, so they will complete a rotation faster, but to pedal them faster requires more motor control. How much did you have to adjust your handlebar height so it didn't negatively impact your weight distribution on the bike ?

@91F2Z 8 месяцев назад

Regardless of the presentation arguments, I changed from 175 to 170 (mountain bike cruising mainly) and the reduced knee and saddle pain was immediate - yes I had adjusted seat hieghts many times, some that aren't legal in any state! Then two months later decided to go for 165mm, and the results were even more noticable. I have a tilted pelvis, and finally I have no more saddle sores or knee injuries. Now have ordered a 165mm road crank (from 172.5), and can't wait. I also strongly suspect that changes in crank length is much more of a factor in 'fit' than changes in stem lengths.

@bikebodybalance 7 месяцев назад

cranks length and stem length/ handlebar reach all play a part in rider positioning. It just depends what the issues are. The thing to understand is when you move one thing it effects everything. Glad you found a happy place with 165mm cranks.

@danielmcgowan9534 3 месяца назад

I'm one of Chris's outliers. He put me on 155 cranks and I'm a bit faster. They allow me to use better technique and prevent injuries. As a rock climber I have reasonable hip flexibility but that's not the only factor. If you don't have issues, stay with what you got. If you need to go shorter you could gain speed but definitely gain comfort.

@arlandmacasieb2113 10 месяцев назад

Nice job guys! Love that quote about changes on the bike being immediate but the human adaptations to the changes are not.

@bikebodybalance 10 месяцев назад

Thanks Arland. We keep trying to spread information that is used in practice and based on our many years of experience seeing all types of issues. As you know, rider position is always a moving target. All the best.

@doncompton9453 Месяц назад

I am 72yo. I had been using 175s since 1984. They helped in the hills because our old road bikes never had very low gears. In recent years ( bad back back and arthritic hips) I have found that the 165s have really helped me to be able rides without the painful lower back and hip pain. I have been using the 165s for over a year and a half and an really sold. Also I raised my seat 1 cm but I didn't have to raise my bars. I wished I had tried this 20+ years ago.

@bikebodybalance Месяц назад

Yes, back in the 80's if you couldn't go up a hill in a 39x23 then you weren't that good. With the longer cranks comes higher torque which requires more stabilization of the pelvis and for longer periods of time on each pedal stroke due to the lower cadence. With currently gearing short cranks seem to work well in reducing the torque and allowing higher rpms. What most people don't do is when they shorten their cranks they should also increase their gearing to maintain constant speeds. The fact that you got away without raising your bars probably suggests you don't ride in the drops as much as you used to, as you effectively decreased the range of motion available in the hips. The best part is it keeps you riding, and that's a win-win. Happy pedaling.

@alexgonzalezMI 11 месяцев назад

I put 165's from 172.5's on my gravel bike. I love it. I put 170's on my MTB, and I'm not 100% sure on it. My legs feel better but I don't fee like I can stomp on the short climbs as well.

@bikebodybalance 11 месяцев назад

You're making a good observation about your body and cranks length when on a MTB. The short cranks will definitely open the hip/ torso angle up a bit at the top of the stroke, but what you're giving up is what's described as a 'moment' of torque. The longer the crank the higher the 'moment' of torque. This is especially apparent when you're riding technical terrain uphill. Especially when you're going over roots or small lips and rock edges. the longer crank helps you create higher torque which moves you over the obstacle quicker. The down side to this is less ground crank clearance and a larger pedaling circle, therefore slower cadence. My recommendations on crank length for MTB will depend on the type of terrain you generally ride. If you ride west forrest, rooted trails. Where you are regularly out of the seat, then you'll probably find a longer [relative] crank will work better for you. If you ride smooth trails with extended climbing in a seated position you'll probably find a shorter [relative] crank will perform better. The exception may be single speed MTB, where the longer crank may work better due to the nature of the riding and spending more time pedaling standing where high torque is beneficial. Let me know if you experience correlates with that explanation.

@alexgonzalezMI 11 месяцев назад

@@bikebodybalance I live in Michigan and our MTB trails are constantly going up or down and mostly single track. So overall I think the 175's are probably better suited for the XC racing that do where the race is 2 hours or less. I do think though, that if I were to do some marathon 50-100 mile races the 170's cranks would be better. I'd lose some of that torque, but I think over the long race I'll preserve more energy for the distance.

@brucewmclaughlin9072 16 дней назад

some of us benefit greatly with short cranks , but they are not for everyone. I am 6'1" and spin happily at 85-90 rpm on 153 mm crank arms .

@bikebodybalance 15 дней назад

100% agree. Who made you the 153mm crank ?

@cuebj 9 дней назад

Wow! That is short! Does depend on leg length which is not indicated by height. Plenty of 6'1" people have very short legs, especially rugby prop forwards! My wife is 5' 4.5" = 164cm and I had her aluminium 172.5mm cranks on her Mezzo folding bike cut down to 155mm which I thought was radical and was what I got from a crank length calculator site about 5 years ago

@dholga1970 Год назад

John Malkovich has entered the chat…

@getupandadam8932 Год назад

Some really good discussion points here that made me think a bit more deeply about crank length. Personally I'm a new cyclist and running 175mm cranks that I find a little awkwardly large on my road bike. I'm about 5'11/6ft and find myself coming up off the saddle a little bit when my cadence pushes into the low 90s, and raising my saddle gives me issues reaching the bottom of my pedal stroke, so I'm hoping a move to 170s alleviates that. Was worried a bit reading the title but feel like that is still the right decision after watching this.

@bikebodybalance Год назад

Hi Adam, Glad we could give you some food for thought. Just based on your height I'd imagine 175mm would be a bit long for you. Unless you have short legs, then you might get away with them. 170mm sounds a bit better. I'm 5'10 and ride 170 on the road and dirt and 160mm in TT position. I'd suggest fitting the cranks and not touching your seat height to start. Then if you feel a little cramped at the top of the stroke nudge it up a very small amount. Good luck and let us know who your fare.

@___Bebo___ Год назад

Have you thought about moving to 165mm? I am 6 foot 1 with a large cycling inseam and I will only use 165mm because you get so much less pain and less tired with them. The smaller circle you make with your knee the less wear you put on it.

@getupandadam8932 Год назад

@@___Bebo___ My 'cycling inseam' is about 33 inches. I don't really get pain or tired with my 175s, it's just awkward at higher cadences where I feel like I'm coming up off the saddle just a smidge. Hoping the 170s do the trick!

@___Bebo___ Год назад

@@getupandadam8932 I'm the same size as you and have a really strong preference for 165s over 170s. 175 is huge anyway, only like really strong athletes racing for money should be using a crank that long, IMO.

@bikebodybalance Год назад

@@___Bebo___ The issue with 165mm cranks when you at 6'1" is the length of your femur dictates that you must be much further back to create maximal leverage in hip extension. With modern bikes and steep seat tube angles this leads to you giving up power. What bike are you riding and what size ?

@Hardi26 Год назад

I only watched about 3 and half minutes of this. I don't want to watch further, because I have my own opinion and clearly it's different from what this guy says. My opinion is that it's better when cranks are a bit too short than too long. In gcn they also have tested with 165 mm cranks with a tall guy, he said no problem. I'm not too short. about 172.5cm tall. I'm not racer. When I replaced cranks it changes so much. I can ride longer distances. I can climb better up the hill. It's easier to ride out from saddle. It's easier to dismount. It's better in every aspect. Why do they install those long cranks by default. If tall people want longer cranks they should buy new ones. Why are the tall people privileged. Why they cant spend money for taller cranks? There is only one reason why I rode too long cranks for 20 years. I knew, that I probably need shorter cranks, but did not try them because they cost money.. and oh what those couple of millimeters can change.. it's not that big deal. But it really is big difference. Now I curse all the tall guys and the whole bikeindustry every time, someone reminds me the crank length.

@bikebodybalance Год назад

Why do you feel "It's easier to dismount" with shorter cranks ? Shorter cranks require the seat to be higher to maintain relative leg extension.

@Hardi26 Год назад

@@bikebodybalance Because with longer cranks it's difficult to dismount, as leg won't reach to the pedal. The saddle height does not need to be adjusted. It was correct already with longer cranks. Only thing that I adjusted was saddle fore/aft position. Moved bit backward little bit. Maybe if I switched from correct crank length to shorter cranks. Maybe then, I had to rise saddle. I don't know. But it appears, that 170 and 172.5 were too long to me and miraculously I had I had got the saddle to correct height over years of experimenting.. Also with too long cranks it's common to rise saddle a bit to avoid knee injury. I did hurt my knee years back, when I bought my second bike, because I initially set saddle too low and forward.

@___Bebo___ Год назад

It's silly not to use 165mm cranks. That was the only size available for almost 100 years, and it was because it was the size where most people won't get any knee issues from using it. If you are racing and your coach wants to put long cranks on your bike, by all means listen to him, but your commuting bike should always have 165 cranks.

@popejbryant 10 месяцев назад

Hey! You did my bike fit on my C'dale Slate! Damn this algorithm is scary lol

@CreativeFishDesignsCharlotte 5 месяцев назад

thank you 2 bad knees here and 3 fused vertebrate 6 feet did my custom build 165mm aliecpress has tons of small cranks my 165 was labeled kids lol

@nelsonlopez879 Месяц назад

I used to ride 145mm cranks on kids road bike, it was awesome, now at 170mm is not fun anymore

@ds6914 4 месяца назад

Thought on handle bar height - I think changes mostly just effect how much you bend your elbows

@bikebodybalance 4 месяца назад

handle bar heigh changes a number of things depending on the rest of the set-up of your position. A basic test to establish your handlebar height is when you are in the hoods and the drops can you take your hands just off the bars and continue to pedal without having to change your torso angle or move yourself on the seat? This shows that you are well balanced and don't have excessive postural implication that will effect breathing. My preference is a higher handlebar than most people think, because if you want to get lower you can usually bend your elbows more.

@srpinaz315 4 месяца назад

Hi greg, thanks so much for the video and great information. You mentioned that you ride different lengths cranks across the disciplines, but is there no benefit to keeping them the same to make it easier for the body when you ride different bikes throughout the week?

@bikebodybalance 4 месяца назад

I use a 165mm crank on my TT bike. This allows me to keep the load off the anterior hip capsule. On the road and dirt I ride the same size crank, 170mm, with the exception of the my single speed MTB, where I have a 175mm crank. The nature of standing more on a single speed means the hip is naturally more open and you can take advantage of the higher moment of torque when pedaling at lower cadences and negotiating technical terrain. I think there's room to optimize between disciplines and their varied positions.

@andrew30703 4 месяца назад

So let’s assume you move to 165mm cranks from 170mm, and your lumbar tension is reduced/you now have a slightly lower natural torso angle….would this new state mean that you may need to raise your saddle less than 5mm to account for the crank length change? Or more?

@bikebodybalance 4 месяца назад

From my experience most riders have their seat too high. So often the shift to a short cranks normalizes the leg extension. My advice is that if you've 'resolved' once issue and not created another, leave things as they are.

@hardmtnbiker 7 месяцев назад

Very interesting discussion. I don’t own a road bike but have 2 gravel bikes and several hardtail mountain bikes. Almost all are 170mm crank arms. My gravel bikes are taken on many Century and longer distances rides (10 full Centuries in 23’) and many 80 and 90 mile rides. Such a great point! Do you have issues? I’m short 5’7” and don’t have issues and feel fine during and after a long distance ride and enjoy the addition leverage and power output of the longer cranks. I personally don’t like having a higher seat height that perches me farther away from my handle bars.

@bikebodybalance 7 месяцев назад

Glad you found the chat valuable. Due to the generally higher torso position on MTB and gravels the issue of crank length isn't as apparent. When people are chasing low 'pro style' positions and they don't have pro functionality shortening the cranks may solve one issue but possibly creates one or two more. In regard to 'additional leverage' cranks length for the most part doesn't actually change your leverage. You can reference the study by Martin et. al. from 2001 which used crank length from 120-220mm and found pedaling efficiency in the 145-170mm range to be a bigger influence on performance than the higher moment of torque created by longer cranks. High torque moments can however be value in MTB or slow speed riding when negotiating root or step-ups.

@makantahi3731 6 месяцев назад

where can i find dura ace cranks from 1995. 160mm long

@bikebodybalance 6 месяцев назад

I don't believe Shimano made a consumer available 165mm in 1995.

@makantahi3731 6 месяцев назад

@@bikebodybalance me too, so i keep 170

@paullynch8316 7 месяцев назад

What’s the difference if ya have a drop post seat I change position as I ride up and down on Mt Bike

@bikebodybalance 7 месяцев назад

There are a number of issues with dropper seatposts. Most of them stem from the fact that there is zero offset on most droppers and combine that with the overly steep seat tube angles on modern MTB to accommodate suspension. Dropper posts are great of you're an Enduro or downhill rider but they are a solution to a problem that didn't exist for XC or trail riding. Finding the optimal position for efficiency when climbing is difficult when using a dropper post, unless you have a very small body mass and morphology.

@aqualone1465 3 месяца назад

Dropper seatposts don't really enter into the discussion here, because the point of one is to lower your seat height for the downhill---when you're *not* pedalling. The dropper post should be installed so that the *max* height is the ideal pedalling height.

@aqualone1465 3 месяца назад

@@bikebodybalance you're too dismissive of dropper posts. It's not only for "Enduro or downhill", it's great even for mildly-technical parts of XC riding. the point is, it's only for the downhill and you shouldn't do much pedalling while in the down position. "Finding the optimal position for efficiency when climbing is difficult when using a dropper post" that doesn't even make sense: when climbing, your dropper post should always be in the highest position, and it functions like any normal seatpost

@bikebodybalance 3 месяца назад

@@aqualone1465 It's simple to achieve the optimal height, that's where the top position is set. If you're using a direct measurement the optimal leg extension can be achieved anywhere on a radius. However, the optimal position for efficient pedaling is not just a matter of leg extension but the combination of the correct extension and the correct joint position to achieve efficient leverage. The issue is it's challenging to achieve the optimal hip position for efficient sustained seated pedaling with a dropper post and modern steep seat tube angles. KS and Specialized are the only manufacturers that make a dropper seat post with an offset. I'm not dismissive of dropper posts at all, but for XC riding they are not optimal. If you're willing to give up some pedaling efficiency in favor of confidence in technical sections then that is a choice any rider can make.

@sempi8159 4 месяца назад

Get some 150mm cranks people

@paullynch8316 7 месяцев назад

Why can’t they make adjustable cranks 😊

@bikebodybalance 7 месяцев назад

There are a number of adjustable cranks made. The drawback is they are bulky and heavy and not really suitable for the end user as you have few objective ways to decide which length may be best for you. I use adjustable cranks on my size cycle, but don't use the size cycle as a definitive rider positioning tool. I only position on the actual bike the rider will use.

@ronitdebnath 5 месяцев назад

Croder do make but dont recommend outdoor riding. Only testing what is suitable.

@bikebodybalance 5 месяцев назад

@@ronitdebnath Yes, they do and the fact that you can only use them on a sizing cycle makes them a good reference tool.

@maxsievers8251 4 месяца назад

Appleman offers a multi-lenghts crank.

@bikebodybalance 4 месяца назад

@@maxsievers8251 Yes, it's a great execution of the manufacturing and a useful tool in the right hands. The issue for most people is their ability to assess and the changes and make an objective decision about what crank length may be optimal. You you change one component on your bike it effects your interaction with many other components and what typically happens is people end up 'chasing their tail' in an attempt to improve things.

@dr.crentist3155 10 месяцев назад

I wanted to go to a shorter crank is: Strikes and with seat post bottomed out pedals still just out of reach.

@bikebodybalance 10 месяцев назад

Shorter cranks requires you increase seat height.

@muradtalukdar4401 3 месяца назад

I have decided to shorten my femur instead.

@xander1756 Месяц назад

"everything"...really?!

@bikebodybalance Месяц назад

I guess you'll have to watch the whole video and find out.

@makantahi3731 6 месяцев назад

on a strong hill with a transmission ratio of 22/34, I can barely turn the pedals on 175mm cranks, the speed is 2-3 km/h,(about 46 rpm) if the cranks were shorter I wouldn't be able to turn them

@ds6914 4 месяца назад

that's a big smallest gear you have - if you're going up hill at less than 55rpm get a modern groupset with smaller gears. which perhaps hints at standard cank lengths being designed at a time when people had less and larger gears

@makantahi3731 4 месяца назад

@@ds6914 thanks for tip but it would be too expensive to replace 3x8, with 1x12, on steep uphill i have problem with balance between front and rear wheel, in one case front wheel raises or rear wheel slips

@ds6914 4 месяца назад

@@makantahi3731 I'd go 2*10 or 2*11... anyway sounds like some steep hills!

@user-cx2bk6pm2f 3 месяца назад

A Movement Specialist... bowel movement?

@bikebodybalance 3 месяца назад

Yes, we highly recommend regular bowel movements driven by having a good amount of fiber in your diet.

@Up2L842moro 2 месяца назад

@@bikebodybalanceCarbon fiber, although trace minerals like titanium and vanadium are good too

@msm624 Год назад

I guess cycling is going woke now too... wtf

@bikebodybalance Год назад

Which part do you feel is woke ?

@msm624 Год назад

@@bikebodybalance the part where "experts" are telling people a shorter leverage is better.

@bikebodybalance Год назад

@@msm624 So let's first address the part of 'experts' Yes, Chris and I are experts, we've done literally thousands of bikes fits over 50 combined years fitting everyone from first time cyclists to world champions, Olympic champions, ProTour riders and other professional. We will put our palmarès up against anyone. So yes, in the new 'woke' world we still actually qualify as experts and are more than happy to debate the ins and outs of this with anyone. Secondly, if crank length was just about leverage then that would be a different discussion. If it was just about a moment of torque then a shorter lever would be less optimal. However, crank length selection has numerous factors that need to be considered, such as pelvic rotation, femoral head angle, riders mass, riders required position, femur and tibia length, seat tube angle and the task being performed.

@msm624 Год назад

@@bikebodybalance thank you for such a professional response. I'm a short guy with a short femur even for my height. Ive ridden different length cranks and I've always gone back to longer and had best results. Gear ratios always seemed more important though and maybe combined with the terrain dictated the gearing. I just can see how shorter cranks help ?