Should a C# Web Developer know Angular/React/Vue? 

Thanks!

You are welcome.

You are welcome.

Thanks!

Thanks for sharing, relevant and real world experience is always valuable to share.

True

Great!

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Glad it was helpful!

Thanks!

Thanks for the suggestion.

Great 👍

Take it one step at a time. Be a great C# developer first. Get a job as soon as someone will hire you as a C# developer (before you have learning it deeply). Then slowly add in JavaScript (vanilla). Then, if you want to, add in one framework (not all three). You will get there over time.

If I can do it, you can do it. Like Tim says, start with C# first and gradually work your way into a framework. When I started learning Angular, I already had the C#/HTML/CSS experience because I came from MVC, however, I had never used .NET Core. I started learning .NET Core and Angular at the same time. It took about 2 years for me to consider myself a "pro" in Angular. I was working in it literally everyday. Even away from my job I was doing little projects solely to learn the framework.

@@tchpowdog thats really great to hear, how many years of overall experience do you have?

@@iHamzaKhanzada I started programming about 12 years ago. I do not have a college degree in software development. I went to school for Mechanical Engineering. I learned software development on my own. It took several years of learning before I could get a job in programming, but since then I have continued to learn as much as I can and it has paid off tremendously for me and I love doing it. It's not a job for me, it's a hobby.

@@tchpowdog investing 12 years for a hobby or profession is a huge amount of time bro, as they say that give 10,000 hours to something dedicatedly and you’ll become an expert in that. And this clearly suits your story 👏

Same here and I agree...I find myself reaching for node more and more.

Thanks for sharing.

It can be a great setup but you can also make a mess with it. React leans more toward user-choice for everything, which makes it REALLY complicated at times.

Thanks for sharing.

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You are welcome.

Thanks for that excellent real world example

From angular to vue? I think your company has no idea what the hell its doing lol

Yep, that can be painful, especially when it is not done well. Remember that the review is about your code, not you as a person. Try to disconnect the emotion from the logic. Your code can always improve. A review is to help you improve your code over time, as well as for everyone to learn. Try not to be defensive, but instead try to be eager to grow. That will help attitudes on the other side and it will help you get better as well. I'll add this to the suggestion list.

It all boils down to how much money they are willing to spend! They intentionally list a huge list of expertise, so they can lower the price as much as they want. they know this in advance. this is simply a tactic by HR!

Jack of all trades, master of none. We have seen that often. In prior job, we trained 'full stack' developers from scratch, but they simply could not develop the true level of skills needed to get jobs.

I'll add that to the suggestion list.

Agreed.

Couple things - First, Angular as a whole is not being deprecated unless I missed some HUGE news. They are always deprecating older versions and AngularJS is no more (which was Angular 1 and which was totally different from Angular 2+). Second, you don't need to use a JavaScript framework for front-end development. For one thing, not every website needs to be a single page application (SPA). For another, when you do need it, you have Blazor as a valid option.

@@IAmTimCorey Thanks Tim. Much appreciated 👍

That is a great option once you get there, yes.

Absolutely. I think learning TypeScript on top of vanilla JavaScript has a lot of advantages for experienced C# developers who are looking to learn a frontend framework. There are conceptual and syntactic similarities between the two languages with things like dependency injection and generics, which makes sense given that they were both created by Microsoft and Anders Hejlsberg was a driving force behind them. I found that a reasonable knowledge of TypeScript along with functional programming methods like map, filter and reduce makes learning a framework like Angular in particular a lot less intimidating.

It depends (it always does). Do you want to be a C# developer who can write Angular, or do you want to be an Angular developer who can write C#? Go really deep in your knowledge of one of them. Then learn as much as you can about the other, but don't let yourself go rusty in the first.

Once you have established yourself in a language, I agree. Just don't make it a distraction from learning your "main" language deeply.

totally agree

You are welcome.

WPF is an entirely different way of thinking, and coming from winforms there is a steep learning curve. Try to think how is my data structured first with WPF as opposed to how will my forms look. Get your objects and viewmodels sorted first. The UI will almost write itself by bindings and how you have organised your viewmodels. I believe that Tim has a course on WPF for you to check out as well.

Just my opinion but I would not invest effort in learning WinForms which 20 years old technology. You would be learning an outdated technology. Unless you wish to become a maintainer of a legacy product in a company you'd better focus at technologies that are actual. WPF is much better choice but still it has its age, UWP was suppossed to replace WPF but never actually did so WPF is still in frequent use. However the era of desktop apps is over, the demand for desktop apps is still decreasing imho. It is kinda sad but the need for having the apps accessible on mobile devices and remotely favors the web apps.

Couple things. First, make sure you separate out your C# code from your UI project. That will help reduce the complexity of your UI. Second, give WPF a shot if you want those things. WPF is REALLY powerful, but it gives you all of the options to configure it (which makes it confusing). I have some videos on this channel on learning WPF (a lot, actually). Give them a shot.

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i would still suggest learning javascript because there are things you cannot do in blazor. however, you can create components that use javascript and the person using the components don't have to know javascript to use them.

At least learn vanilla JavaScript. You don't need to do it right away, but you should know it if you are building web applications (even in Blazor). And yes, Blazor is great for business applications. You may find a need to supplement it with JavaScript, though.

Bad idea. The current web is based around JS apis (blazor uses some of them or add layer on top of it), therefor, know those "vanilla" web apis is important if you want to work in the web. Microsoft tends to "abstract" the web in their implementations, but honestly this has never worked well and a lot of Devs end not understanding what they are using and overengineering stuff that can be solve used basic standard apis offered in the browser

It depends on how you define necessary. I don't think it was ever necessary. You can get a C# development job without them. However, if you are a good C# developer and you want to round out your skills, adding React or Angular or Vue will definitely add to your marketability. Just to be clear, though, they don't typically add to what you will get paid, though. In fact, they get paid on average less than C# developers do. It just means you have more potential places you could work.

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Yeah. Why?

Most existing applications don't use Blazor, so there's just less jobs on pure Blazor. Yes we would all like to write applications from scratch, but I found in most jobs, you're just maintaining old applications.

You should at least learn vanilla JavaScript. However, adding a JS framework to your skillset (once you have a deep knowledge of C#) will improve your marketability (your ability to get a job). Just remember to get that deep knowledge in C# first. Otherwise, you will have shallow knowledge of a lot of things and won't be desirable to employers.

The best way to validate your skills is to build something and show an employer. That will tell them more than a certification will.

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My recommendation will always be to have a deep knowledge of one language before adding another language in. The reason for this is not because you cannot do the job with a shallower knowledge of multiple languages, but because employer are going to value a person with deep knowledge in one area over those who have a shallower knowledge of multiple areas. Now once you are in a job, you may be asked to skip around. I still recommend gaining that deep knowledge in one area, though, for your personal growth and development. That way you can leave your company more easily if you need to.

I didn't say to learn all of those at an advanced level before getting a job. I said to learn C# deeply first, then consider adding those in. You can get a job as soon as someone will hire you as a C# developer.

@@IAmTimCorey i think "deeply" is what Thodoris is debating about.

​@@IAmTimCorey Unfortunately looking at the current scenario, it's difficult to get even an entry level job just as a pure c# developer

Absolutely!

Depends on what you mean. Vie is probably the simplest. I like simple because there are less areas for mistakes and more ability to get a team up to speed more quickly.

That can be a good indicator, although remember that you don't need lots of jobs, just one. Also, the opportunities that are available don't always match what is publicly available at any given time.

@@IAmTimCorey good advice TY

The console is a great place to learn C# code itself. I recommend that everyone start there. And yes, you can create something really advanced with just a console application. In fact, web applications are actually just console applications under the hood. So are services. The biggest benefit of using the console, though, is that you aren't focused on making something pretty and spending all of your time there. You are focused on learning and writing good C# code.

​@@IAmTimCorey Master thank you very much for your answer, that means i can learn pure C# using the console.

It depends. Do you have a need to do so? Will it make your life easier? Are you looking to expand your career opportunities? If so then absolutely go for it.

Couple things. First, learning JavaScript is necessary because those three frameworks are JavaScript. Also, you use JavaScript on the web even if you use Blazor. Second, I'm not sure what you mean by your Blazor skills are obsolete. Blazor is not obsolete and won't be for a very long time. As for WebAssembly, I'm not sure what more traction you want it to gain. It is an incredibly popular web option (for everyone, not just C# developers).

Great!

Yep.

Awesome!

I agree that learning HTML and CSS should be the first step onto the web, well before even learning JavaScript.

@@IAmTimCorey what you doing up so early lol

That fully depends on your specific situation. It isn’t something I can answer for you.

lol great!

You are welcome.

I like C# but I hate blazor...

@@ViktorTy why?)

Anyone actually using blazor at work?

​@@danm2756 I have, and this have been a game changing tech, I have worked with Mean stack but blazor development is easier and faster, however windows servers are more expensive for sure... but the development is so easy that I feel I am doing something wrong 😂

@@yulioortiz6058 interesting, is it easier than react or angular?

Possible? Yes. But what you will find is that if you are a web developer who doesn't know JavaScript, you will be somewhat limited. The C# tools allow you to do almost everything, but knowing how JavaScript works and the basics of vanilla JavaScript is important if you are a web developer.

@@IAmTimCorey thank you! I understood.

Blazor is an alternative, yes.

You definitely could.

@ghost mall While I agree that the frameworks such as React, Angular etc. evolved to simplify the development for enterprise application, those frameworks were invented way before browser natively supports encapsulating components. Currently we could achive similar functionalty or better natively with "Web Components" and custom events for componentising UI and state management. Having worked on React, Angular and native Web components for enterprise applications my preference is native as things wouldn't be absolute frequently by implementing application in vanilla javascript.

These are podcast episodes that I also record as videos. They are designed to be listened to.

I have a course that will help with that 😉: www.iamtimcorey.com/p/foundation-web-development

jQuery is a library, not a framework.

@@programmer5855 ah, gotcha. Well, it makes js so much more usable/ readible. So libraries are great.

@@jhbonarius Yes, I agree. jQuery gets the job done, certainly a must know for any web developer.

jQuery is not nearly as valuable as it used to be. The big benefit of jQuery was simplicity across browsers. Now that browsers generally support the standard things, we don't need jQuery for most cases. You can do almost everything in vanilla JavaScript that you do in jQuery and you can do it without the extra overhead.

@@IAmTimCorey thanks! I didn't know that. Although the first things I found online didn't look great. Sure, you can do it with vanilla, but it looks really ugly. You'd probably need to wrap it in functions yourself, too clean it up, making your own library.

You definitely need depth in C#, but adding a JS framework will broaden your appeal as a developer. That doesn't mean you have to do it, though.

Learn vanilla JavaScript really well first (that's not a library, it is just JavaScript itself). Trying to learn a library before learning JavaScript is a recipe for frustration and bad programming. Once you are at the point of choosing a library, do very basic demos in each of the big players. Figure out which one feels right to you.

aspx was the future as well. Now is a dump of shit.

I just hired an employee that will be building just HTML websites for me. Static sites are still a major thing online. Not everything needs to be framework-driven.

I'm not sure that we are seeing the same responses from people. It feels more like everyone is focused on client-side development to the exclusion of all else. That's why Angular, React, and Vue are so popular (client-side). In the most recent Stack Overflow survey, 42.87% of the 56,742 respondents said as professional developers, they use React. 19.89% said they use Angular. 17.64% said they use Vue. Comparatively, only 18.86% said they use ASP.NET Core. As for the "no website is complex anymore" statement, I don't think that's true either. I think that there are an incredibly large number of sites that are complex. For example, on GitHub, you can hit the dot key and have full VS Code in the browser (because VS Code is actually a web app wrapped in Electron for desktop use). More and more businesses are making web apps instead of desktop apps, even. That includes Microsoft Office (the new versions are web apps), all of Google's apps (Gmail, GSuite, etc.), and even RU-vid (all of the comments are client-side interaction, the video is just HTML5, etc.) In fact, there are very few sites anymore that are full page re-renders for actions. I think, though, that you might be lumping in websites with web apps. Websites, which are the majority of sites on the web, are not applications and do not need to be applications.

@@IAmTimCorey Don't get me wrong, I mean client side javascript vs serverside javascript

@@IAmTimCorey Sorry, shiny simple AND secure

@@IAmTimCorey I agree with you that the whole nodejs stack is bs. But sometimes you need clientside javascript. Client actually meaning the browser. I appreciate your videos concerning razor syntax.

@@IAmTimCorey I just like to rant about Web Development in general. Source: Jonathan Blow. He sees the market is shrinking already.

I am not sure what you are asking. If you are asking if it is easy to get into web development, the answer is yes. However, that does not mean that you will be an expert without a lot of hard work.

Are you saying it should be avoided?

@@IAmTimCorey No, all the contrary. Making things simpler becomes more difficult.

For sure. Junior developers make simple apps that do simple things. Mid-level developers make complex apps that do complex things. Senior developers make simple apps that do complex things.

I think you missed the premise. The question is "should a C# web developer know ..." The point was that they are already a C# developer. Sure, you don't need to know C# in order to know Angular.

I'm glad you find it that valuable.

I actually found Vue to be easier than React or Angular, but I think it really depends on your previous experiences.

@@IAmTimCorey no, I am saying that learning Angular first makes react easier, then it makes learning vue easier. VUE is a lot easier

It is a quickly shifting landscape, to be sure. The C# front-end landscape is a bit more stable now, though.

This is my plan

I don't agree with that, but it is possible not to learn any of these and still have a well-rounded development ability.

@ghost mall you assume I want to “be employed”. Luckily I think bigger than that. I will find the most intuitive & effective tech stack to build my own dreams and create new value in the world, then employ others.

Probably not.

Man, in the future it'll be the best, C# will be the best tool for everything, I know it, because Bill Gates told me this when I met him in Silicon Valley.

@@bo_0ss and we have to believe that from you :)

@@ValentineMasina You may not believe in my words, but you must believe the words of Bill Gates!!! He told me " Blazor is number one, it's a tool like the best gun"...

Blazor is good, but need a couple of years more :)

@@PatricSjoeoe you are right, but, nope, you are so right ▶️ Future will good for developers if AI will not do all our job ))))

Yes, lots of people have impostor syndrome ( ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-b4GzbZhjE1A.html ), but not everyone hates the idea of learning. As a developer, it is important to keep moving forward with your skills. That means continual training and practice.

Absolutely not in development. You will be hired and paid based upon your depth in one. At some point you will benefit from knowing others but you need depth first.

@@IAmTimCorey ^^^ Been doing this for 25 years professionaly and this right here is gospel. You're not going to impress anyone in a serious interview with a cursory knowledge of a dozen techs. Sorry, but anyone can do that.

Use the speed controls.