Should Land Rover Defender Be Worried by the Ineos Grenadier? I Drive Both Back-to-Back! 

You forgot to mention that the B58 engine is also used in the Toyota Supra. If Toyota has the confidence to put this engine in their car, it must be reliable.

Grenadier looks awesome. I am not even considering a Defender. I saw a Grenadier about 30 minutes ago on an ad and now I want one. 😊

When I drive mine, everyone thinks the Grenadier is a land rover defender. Lol You're gonna have a ton of people going to the land rover dealership asking for the grenadier without even knowing.

Hi All from Scotland ! I’ve owned 53 Land Rover so far , currently have a 1969 series 2a , a 1979 series 3 and a new Defender 90 D250 X-Dynamic SE , I bought the Defender new in December 2022 and so far it hasn’t missed a beat ! In my experience the Land Rover reliability issues are mainly historic, I bought a Discover 3 when they came out , it had so many faults in 6 months they bought it back ! Bought a Range Rover sport in 2018 ran it for 3 years with no problems whatsoever , did look at the Grenadier and I totally respect what Sir Jim has done but the Defender is just a fantastic vehicle that does everything I need it to do and so much more Keep up the good work TFL

Both are way too much money.

The clientele is entirely different for these two vehicles.

I was torn on the two but went defender - very happy with it 30k in. Brilliant in day to day off road use - just put the option mud tyres on it. So much more comfortable and well thought out.

Love the overhead switches !!! It’s like the cockpit of a jet, really think other manufacturers should start implementing that into their off road models, awesome

How are they addressing service locations on the Ineos? Thank you

After seeing the Ineos it honestly just made me appreciate what Land Rover did even more. They really brought it to modern times but still kept it capable and kept design hints from the past 👍

Most people, (certainly most mainstream journalists, most non 4x4 enthusiasts, and certainly most of the design team at LR), completely misunderstood about the (now) classic Defender is that it was the best 4x4 by far (thanks JLR marketing team), and that that was determined by its abilities off road. Whilst (in the right hands) it could be very capable, most of the modern LR fleet (Disco 1/2/3/4, RR etc), with their better underpinnings and tech such as HDC, would trounce a Defender family vehicle, if given the proper boots. The reality is what made the Defender 'great' was its flexibility, its adaptability and its fixability. The most adaptable utilitarian platform the world has ever seen, with no two vehicles being alike. Cherry pickers, to fire trucks, to NGO wagons, to oil tankers, to tow trucks, to military armoured vehicles, to ski chalet bus, to farm vehicle, to brazier's wagon, to overlander, to estate vehicle and in more recent times, to gin bar and pizza oven. Literally no other vehicle has offered so much adaptability, and what's more, often so easily and cheaply. Take delivery of a ladder chassis with engine and cab and the world is your oyster. And if that oyster broke down anywhere, really easy to fix using a spoon and some zip ties and electrical tape. Yes there's the joke about LR reliability versus that of Toyota, but even a Toyota can break down or suffer serious mechanical damage, and if in the middle of nowhere, I'd know which I'd rather fix. The design team at LR suffered two misfortunes. First they clearly can't spell, and second they clearly can't see the point. They can't spell, so mistook Defender for Discovery (for that's what the new Defender is). Second they missed the point, as the ND development was all about reclaiming the title of 'best vehicle off road@ which perhaps it has done, but which had nothing to do with the 'point' of a Defender. Frankly, most Defender owners would have only needed a few upgrades to make them carry on buying the ND. 1. Keep the looks as they are 2. Widen the vehicle (to offer more space in the cabin) and try and sort the b-pillar blind spot 3. Put in a 'proper' engine (3l diesel minimum) - with auto box option 4. Full set of locking diffs for enthusiasts, LSDs for road biased users 5. Upgrade sound proofing 6. Upgrade electrics (reliability) 7. Improved infotainment/AC/Heater/Sat Nav, without kicking the a**e out of it like the ND and turning the dash into the 4x4 equivalent of the USS Enterprise. But no, Gerry McGovern couldn't help himself and 70 years of history was ripped up overnight to be replaced by an ugly, bloated Disco 6 that's bought by soccer moms, football players and drug dealers, and as soon as it leaves the LR dealership heads straight round to the owner's favourite bodyshop to get it pimped and slammed. Tragic. Wilkes will be turning in his grave.

The Grenadier really has my interest. I am curious to see what the long-term reviews will look like and what kind of aftermarket attention it gets.

The speed alert thing is because from later this year in many markets (mainly in the EU) all new vehicles have to have either a speed alert or a smart graduated/hard physical speed limiter. For now they can be overridden, but will reset every engine start.

Awesome and outstanding as always.Thanks for sharing and taking us along

One question I had was Ineos service centers for any repairs or warranty work. Looking at their locations, I was suprised by how many dealerships there were already, so now i'm even more interested.

Of those two it would be the defender. If i wanted a modern solid axle off roader its gonna be the wrangler.

I think this is great because it represents people who are truly cross shopping this process range. It flushes out expectations versus reality.

Another great video, thank you! Loved seeing the new Ineos. Have to admit I’m partial to the Defender for what I need, it’s perfect. So fun to see the innovation in this market space.

I saw a grenadier yesterday in person dropping a load at my local dump. It was really customized. Very nice. Coolest feature I saw was a cleat type system wrapping around almost the entire outside of the car for accessories like Jerry cans, max trax, etc.

I love the aircraft style overhead panel.

I bought an Ineos Grenadier, and ended up rejecting the vehicle back to Ineos. Reason - the vehicle had been at the dealer for 6 weeks whilst Ineos Technical continue to fail to resolve a non-working cabin heater and aircon. Eventually I got the car back after it had been 'fixed' - and the fault reoccurred after 50 miles. The Customer Service people had told me that fixing my car was a priority, and that an Aftermarket Manager would personally resolve this issue. Nobody contacted me, an Ineos will not share the manager's contact details. Also - Ineos would not lend me a replacement 4x4. Why would they - I had paid in full and had no leverage. I wrote recorded delivery to Ineos CEO Lynn Calder to try to get some traction on this issue. There was no response from the boss. So, like the rest of her organisation - she doesn't care. So after rejecting the Ineos, I bought a new Defender and it is great! My conclusion - Land Rover should not be worried.

Is it just me? Or is Tommy killing all his reviews? Keep up the great work. Hope to see you on the trail in March. I'll be back in yalls area.

In my previous 2 BMWs, the key battery was charged via induction in the key barrel. Perhaps the Grenadier uses BMW electronics in part (or a similar system) and the battery just needed a good 'charge'? I noticed the key battery on my spare key going flat after maybe a year - but it charged real quick. Am just speculating here, don't flame me!

For everyday driving the Defender all day long. What they really did with the redesign is they recreated the original Range Rover. While the new Rangies are all upmarket luxury barges that will almost never see dirt, the new defender picks up where the old range left off. A very comfortable vehicle for all use cases without being too agricultural. I just don't see the Ineos as a compelling proposition rather than a few enthusiasts - especially in the North American market - given its price point and lack of dealer support and probably very limited after market options, due to a small market. If I want to go full on off road prowess, with unlimited customization options - the Wrangler or the Bronco are the way to go. Ineos Grenadier is really a novelty/exotic car with no USP and a extremely small target demo imho. I wish them luck.

Ineos have one factory with a production capacity of 35,000 vehicles per year. And they are about to launch the Quartermaster Ute. LR are delivering over 100,000 Defenders per year worldwide, ( 110,367 in 2023 ) and can’t keep up with demand. Grenadier will appeal to a ( smaller ) group of people who want a more rugged and utilitarian vehicle. This suits a small company, with one factory, such as Ineos. Defender has better comfort / safety / tech / it’s a better daily driver, and it has excellent off road capability. ( that most owners will not utilise ) This larger set of attributes, is why Defender will continue to appeal, overall, to a wider range of people, compared to the Grenadier. Defender offers different body styles and engines etc LR built the new Defender to suit their company and business model. Both vehicles have their place, and will be successful vehicles for both companies. Whilst comparisons are inevitable. In reality some people might buy a Grenadier instead of a Defender. But some people will buy a Defender, instead of Grenadier. People will buy what suits them and their own specific requirements.

I've always been a fan of the older Defender over any Land Rover. This is so looking so nice!

I just got the Grenadier. Sick car. I absolutely love mine.

I have both, both are amazing!

The intro music is gold. Make a playlist on TFL for road trips.

I've begun to see these around here in Boise, Idaho and they look great. Just haven't seen them off-road here yet. We love our Jeeps but the Grenadier is amazing in how customizable it is. If I could afford one I'd still need to have a Jeep because of its history

The whole point of the Grenadier is that is spiritually continues where classic Defender left off. The new Defender is a luxury SUV, and not the rugged off-roader the Series 1/2/3 and Defender were. I'm sure the new Defender can do these things, but that's not the market it's targeting. Grenadier *_is_* targeting that rugged Defender market and would be better compared to a late model classic Defender than the current model.

Would like some off road comps with good tires

I’m positively STUNNED you guys didn’t vie to be the first in America to buy one for a long term review!!!!

The suspension is the deal breaker for me as far as the defender is concerned. That independent air suspension has no travel and lifts wheels over the tiniest bit of off camber terrain. And it doesn't have selectable lockers. Instead it has complex fancy electronics to compensate for a suspension that is clearly has no travel or articulation. And since you dont have selectable lockers, if you have a sensor failure the terrain resonse will not work, meaning no locking center diff, let alone rear diff. This means when that stiff suspension with no articulation lifts a wheel while trying to get over a small pothole or stone, its going to spin one tire and the other 3 will do nothing. It will be the equivalent of taking a skateboard with open diffs offroad. And I love thw defender but why didn't they at least use a solid rear axle and manually selectable center diff and rear diff lockers?

Thanks Tommy !!!

So good this TFL videos

On the new Defender, is there a self under the steering column that you wack your shins into every single time you hit clutch and breaks? Like the older Defender 90 and 110’s.

Just picked my Grenadier up last night. It has a few things to be sorted out already (traps water in passenger door sill) and some wiring that needs to be installed but it drives awesome. It scoots pretty good.

Good video!!

The BMW B58 is also the engine that Toyota sourced for the new Supra.

I would pick the Ineos Grenadier.🤔

If you have ever towed a lot you know that turning circle is extremely important. Ineos has dropped a bollock on this one.

It's very cool they are actually even able to make it this cheap being some really low number manufacturer and still having to comply with all the regulations.

Yeaaaaaa I’m super happy I got a New Defender. So good.

I think this should be a TFLoffroad video, btw, carefull with the sound, you need to get new anti wind sound systems.

cargo 34 cu f vs 31 cu f . how does it feel it's really bigger in Land Rover vs Ineos?

It’s amazing to see all the new marques of cars coming out in recent years, as opposed to watching brands shut down and cut costs for most of my life.

Never heard of the B52!

The Ineos is the Landrover Defender II. The new Landrover is a Discovery 6 - a luxury SUV with off-road capabilities. However, due to extreme amount of electronics, the air suspension, the unibody, the lack of reliability (like almost all Landrovers), the inadequate rim/wheel sizes etc. you don't want to take it off-roading in remote places or outside Europe, urban North America and Australia.

I’ll take solid axles over IFS any day there is no comparison off road no matter how many tricks the Land Rover has it can’t keep all four wheels on the ground on any real off road terrain.

Definitely thought we were gonna see some off road testing comparisons in this video

Tommy conveniently ignores the multiple LR Defender failures they had earlier.

That price hike is what deterred me.

Physical buttons are always nice

Will you immediately pop 2 tires if you take the Defender offroad, Tommy? 😂

I would not cross shop these two vehicles. The Defender, while I still believe its a highly capable offroader, its not the vehicle I would want to toss around like I would a previous gen Defender. It had regardless become a premium vehicle too nice to want to abuse it in this way. I would take it on light trails and maybe sand but not heavy rock crawling. The Grenadier based on what I read seems very purposeful offroader kept simple and built to be durable. I would feel more confident taking this offroading and even fording over the technologically complex Land Rover. That being said, if money wasn’t an issue, I would probably get both, have the Defender in the top of the line X trim as the daily or weekend vehicle and the Grenadier as the offroading toy.

I am concerned with the cylindrical seat belt holders which come out from the side. In case of a crash what are the chances for ur head crashing sideways into them?

You could have told me the Granadier has mice on a wheel for a motor and I would still choose that over the rover.

I am a Land Rover bloke from way back and own several different models including series 2a to disco 2 td5 freelander 2 td4 and a few others .I would not even consider a new defender for several reasons (not in any order) it will never be am off road vehicle while it is fitted with 20 inch tyres , if the battery goes flat while touring the outback it cannot be started without a technition with a lap top and landrover software , not very practical on the Canning stock route or othe overland treks where the nearest landrover dealer could be 1000ks and 4 or 5 days away ,electronics way to complicated v6 diesels not very reliable . So I will be taking posesion of my grenadier 3 litre diesel in 3 days with 183 kw(245hp) and 550 nm(406 ft/lB) and 17 inch wheels it will be a great off road tourer

My 2011 Edge had an alarm you could set if you went over the speed limit

One of them is a true off roader. I spend a lot of time in the bush and I never see a Defender.

Both are really great vehicles!!

The Rover is a much smarter buy for someone like me who does mostly hwy and city driving. With that said I would choose the Grenadier. That thing is just too rad.

Awesome Review! I just drove one the other day! It’s really incredible! I love the ball steering. I got to drive it up onto the sidewalk. It went right up! Incredible! ❤️✅👍😊

The way he described the Defender is exactly why Ineos built the Grenadier. It is not a Defender it’s just another Range Rover.

The Land Rover looks like it is wearing a tuxedo to go out to play in the mud. Excellent presentation.

I like the Grenadier. New Defender drivers are that sort of golf playing dentist, without roots in offroading. Like most of the G wagon owners i know. So no choise for me

You didn’t mention the center differential issue on the defender.

Another great video

i was about to complain about the $40k average low price for a wrangler. But if either of these are over $80k, then there's just no way I'm gonna go into that kind of debt for a question mark. if the grenadier ends up being more reliable than a Jeep, well then, i can get a used one down the line.

I would like the Grenadier to fit larger tires easier and have disconnectable sway bars but other than that I'm glad that it has over twice the towing capability of a Wrangler

A friend of mine ha s a 2022 m5 . At about 20000 km it needed 18 thousand dollars of work on the turbos. Luckily it was under warranty. I sed to him when he bought it that he was nuts. After he 18 thousand dollars warranty work . He is getting rid of it just before he warranty is up.

That Landrover Defender is probably the best SUV ever. However it wasn't replacing an SUV it was replacing a 4x4 commercial platform. There is no doubt the new one is better off road with all it's trick software, but can you take the back body off and fit a welding station, cherry picker, make it a fire engine or stick a tray on it. So Landrover made a really good SUV which would replace the original Discovery's really well, but it's no Defender / Series replacement. Unfortunately the Grenadier is trying to be that Defender replacement, but it's not really built in a way you could remove the roof or back body to use as that commercial go anywhere platform.

Can you lift the body off the Grenadier in two hours? Excellent 4x4 with a bit of luxury? The Discovery 3/4 nailed it.

On the TPMS. Most likely, when it comes on after sitting overnight or a few hours, the tire psi is low. After driving a short distance, the tires heat up, and the air expands, turning off the TPMS. Check the psi after setting for a while. If it's a hot check, add about 5 more psi.

I love how with all cars now the buyer seems to be the bug tester as well. It would be nice if car manufacturers resolved these software bugs before sending them to customers.

How's the footwell? Some people complain about comfort in the footwell area on the front passenger side.

The biggest selling point for the Defender in my case is the 90. I am single and only have myself to think of, except for school holidays when I look after my granddaughter. A long wheelbase 'anything' is just way to big for my needs. The only other short wheelbase I can think of is the 2 door Wrangler, and it's very limited towing capacity rules that out.

Nice review. Im 100% with you on the Defender. Its our comfortable daily driver, but man it also kicks ass towing our camper and doing recrational offroading such as beach driving and trails.

Judging from the people I know who either now own a Grenadier or are interested in owning one, I’d say that it’s more of a Wrangler replacement than a G-Wagen replacement.

Ineos was supposed to be cheaper and covid etc that didn't happen so most people won't pay that much money for it now. I wish your original 4 cylinder Defender that died could have been tested a lot more, would have been awesome. I have a JLUR and I wouldn't trade it in for either of these right now.

Im 2/3 inc is there gonna be a real disco vs Grenadier offroad battle or just chit chat?

I might trade my Rubicon Recon for grenadier..

Been waiting for this and I don't have time to watch it right now😢

Good review. Defender is really for urban driving and the Grenadier is made for off-road. In that regard they can't keep with each other....both vehicles can perform in all areas, but not as well in their speciality

New GX550 will be a bigger Defender competitor

I have a fully spec’d out Grenadier on order since the very beginning. But after test drive I just wasn’t impressed. It’s just too basic for the price point. Steering sucks, radio sucks, on road handling not great. Back up camera sucks. No navigation (must use your phone’s apps). No heated steering wheel. If most of your driving is on road the Defender is simply way better and has all the things the Grenadier lacks. So after waiting several years and being disappointed with the test drive; what did I buy? Yep, a Defender. Super happy with the Defender. I’ll be canceling my Grenadier order.

How did you get the steel wheels with the six cylinder?

That comparison works for "lifestyle" people who buy vehicles for the "cool factor" but don't really use them for their [assumed] purposes. There's no denying that Land Rover made a phenomenal 4WD platform with LR3/4, and probably made it better in the Defender. However, it all comes to a grinding fault when the tree branch snags off an air suspension hose, or ABS sensor wire. Land Rovers don't really even need to leave pavement to need a flatbed - our LR4 had spent more time and miles on the back of the tow truck than the rest of my jeeps and Land Rovers combined. The INEOS did what Land Rover should have done - bring back a square box on solid axles, relatively underpowered so the engine torque doesn't kill the rest of the drivetrain. The price point favors the Grenadier as well, for people who really know their market.

I think the lack of a traditional gauge cluster on the Grenadier might be a deal breaker for me, assuming I could afford an $80k vehicle in the first place.

Land Rover just needs to improve load and tow capacity a little, especially on the 130. They could do with a rear suspension mod to increase rear articulation a bit and improve off road stability. Some kind of front locker would be a nice option; and if they could get round to a high top van version (Sprinter walk in and stand up style). And of course a 16" wheel option. Basically a very off road capable work and overland platform then perfect.

Oddly Ineos is a privately owned chemical company in the UK. Surprising they wanted to build this 4 x 4 in limited volumes

My choice is the new Toyota land cruiser 70 Series!!!!

Was expecting more Patagonia merc in this video.

Great video, interesting comparison. There have been comments on the INEOS about slightly offset pedals being uncomfortable on long drives. Was that apparent? BTW INEOS most people in UK pronounce it IN-EE-HOS

Petrol or Diesel engines? How do these compare off road.

I’m always checking my speed…no driver facing speedometer is a show stopper. Cannot imagine the mini back door would ever be convenient.

Plastic car vs steel truck. That's how I view it. Nice review Tommy.

Going to the mall or on road trips with friends or light off-road the Defender wins hands down & drives like a high-end car with low profile tyres, and the most sophisticated traction control system and air suspension - wow it is great! Going where there are no real roads, tyres do get shredded, and where you really need robustness & simplicity & options to fix it yourself to get you there or home it's got to be a Grenadier, an Old Land Rover Defender ( I own a Defender 110 CSW, S11A Airportable and Toyota) or 70 series Toyota Land Cruiser! I am a Land Rover man but value simplicity, maintainability & reliability over Gismos which won't work & simply cannot be repaired or made to work when stuck in 3 feet of dirty water.

There is one thingie.. the Ingenium Engine has a few design faults. First of all its the drive chain. 100.000 mls and it need to be replaced.. What is a quite costly topic. I had it on the 2 litre ingenium,.. and had quite to wait a long time until spare parts arrived. Also if you think about air suspension? - It might be a smooth ride BUT.. -. think of failures. . repairing this in the middle of nowhere is impossible. The Grenadier uses Eibach Suspension system.. Robust and reliable.. My opinion . if you need a car mostly on road downtown with a bit of space - and you can bear the cost.. If you go really off road and do overlanding.. then its Grenadier. BTW None of both is a rock cat like Jeep. If you want to do trails for a weekend you need short wheel base, a lift, things like that. Ineos might release a short wheel base Grenadier that could compete to Jeep Wrangler in this topic. But the current version is mainly an overlanding and adventure vehicle. Good storage and towing capability. Its a proper utility. I use mine in a Diesel version in Germany since now October 22. On the road on motorway, snow, ice, wet meadows, unpaved and ungravelled forest paths with potholes, puddles, mud. .. Grenadier manages all of my requirements.