Tube amps often deliver far less than full power at low frequencies. This video demonstrates that fact and offers advice for those wondering whether they should buy a tube amp.
Great video! I find many people get caught up in the "lowest distortion thing" that's pushed by amplifier manufacturers. Remember we are analog beings and are surrounded by "lots" of distortion and reflections every day. *We tend to like or favor what we hear a lot of.* It's all about balance, and tube amps balance this quite nicely. Have a great day!
Thanks! Even though I grew up with my dad's McIntosh-based system, I was skeptical of tubes but eager to try them out. I was surprised by how enjoyable the listening experiences were across a range of type and quality of tube amps. Anyway, thanks for watching and commenting! I've learned a lot from you over the last few years!
I enjoy a lot of different things, and I have more than one system. With a lot of folks, they're using a phone and earbuds and maybe considering something more substantial.
I've been a hifi fan for about 20 years (and a music fan forever) and loved the music I was hearing from my solid state system but became tube curious after I listened to a PrimaLuna tube amp in a hifi shop in Sydney a few years ago. I did a lot of research that kept the itch at bay until I snapped up a Luxkit A3600 tube power amp in an auction in Japan over a year ago. It is a kit version of the Luxman MQ3600 but the pics indicated it had been built extremely well by a hobbyist in the 70s. I guess it owed me about $US650 including postage and the 240-100V stepdown transformer. But for this money, I got over 50W from four KT88s in ultralinear PP configuration, which means I don't have a bass problem and it never runs out of gain. Every track has never sounded better and it has encouraged me to learn as much as I can about how tube amps work so I can keep it making music sound so damn good! The only thing it gives up to the best solid state sound I've experienced is a little transient detail but it more than makes up for that with more solid imaging and tone. And I hope to get a little more detail back as I learn more about how this amp works.
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi Thanks! Yes, I have. I'm now considering other options, eg replacing the cathode and grid blocking resistors with wirewounds or low noise metal film/foil types. I might even replace the cathode resistor for the 6AQ8 input tube with a diode. Or meddle with the negative feedback...
@@gregwilliams2746 It might be that the designer intentionally rolled off the highs, perhaps to ensure stability. Or the output transformer could be the limiting factor. If the iron is big enough to go very low, the highs can suffer. Interesting problem for you, huh?
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi Thanks! Yeah, the output transformers ain't the problem. They are Luxman OY15-3.6s and I've seen the frequency response (measured and confirmed by owners, not just Luxman) - it's so good it seems too good to be true (10Hz to 35KHz -1db)... :)
Sir, thank you for this information on amplifiers. The "scope" doesn't lie! I would really like to build a tube amp system with the best "synergy" that I could afford someday. Doing it on a small budget would add to the fun and the challenge. However, I have to wonder if "audio nirvana" is achievable. I've recently had the luck of being able to listen to a couple of songs over an $50k system, but I was not $50k impressed. In my opinion my ~ $600 pieced together rig at my desk sounds much better. My likely unobtainable thoughts are to build a tube monoblock stereo system that would be a joy to listen to Jazz, Big Band, some Blues, lite rock, etc...... with. Besides my own joy, I think it would be so much fun to watch others experience such a system for their first time. Wishing you and yours all the very best, Kevin
I had an ARC VT100 MKiii, 100wpc, it was very pleasant sounding for mids and highs, but it has no deep bass. I switched to a Mcintosh MC402, 400wpc, and never look back. It has balance output on bass, mids and highs.
I had an Audio Research VT 100 MKI. It was a beastie beast until it crapped out. I think it’s a good idea to do some extensive listening before plunking down your money on any audio product. Amps, like speakers, can make or break your system sound.
Thanks, I really enjoy your videos and your approach to the hobby. I'm also a tube head and whenever appropriate deploy tube gear in a system. I have owned several tube Integrateds and Monoblock's over the years. Of all that I owned the only tube amp that was anemic in the bass was a 30 watt per channel Anthem/Sonic Frontiers integrated 1. Using EL 84 tubes that only got down to 30 HZ it could not get down and growl like the other amps I owned. Set up in an office system where if did have lots of bass, would have disturbed my coworkers, it was ideal. All the others I owned handled bass very well. As you noted though it depends on the power supply and transformer. It has to be able to deliver current. Using efficient speakers does not hurt either. I feel the only tine you run into problems with weak and indistinct bass from a tube amp occurs when you use a vintage gear like what you set up. Modern amps from Rogue, PrimaLuna, McIntosh, Willeston, Gallion, Cayin are not super expensive and reliable.
Thank you you explained a lot of things I had been wondering about very clearly. I was looking at buying a sansui 1000a as it combines my love of receivers with tubes. Everything I read about it claims a big powerful sound, am I going to be missing out on bass with that unit? It is quite expensive, so it’s kind of a big commitment.
I just got a Sansui 1000. With those big Hashimoto output transformers, I expect your 1000a will sound great. My 1000 needs some work, but I didn't pay much.
I have an SS McIntosh amp and a Rogue Tube amp, and I find myself using the tube amp more often. They both put out 100wpc but with the tube amp, I rarely if ever hear distortion and it drives my Magenpans effortlessly. I understand that 100wpc is different from 23 but I doubt I have ever gotten anywhere near that in my room. To save my stock Tung Sol KT120 tubes I went with the technically lower powered Mullard KT88s and it defiantly, stubbornly sounds better even though I lost 10 watts. How can that be? Well, the sound of those 90 is "better" to my ears than the previous 100. The tubes may be better quality, maybe, but now the sonic character of the amp is better suited to my tastes. It has no problem with low bass and the midrange makes me deliriously happy. Strong words but I went from pleased to open-mouth enamored for $320! THAT'S where the power of the tube lies in my opinion. With enough money (tubes ain't cheap) you could have a different amp every month! Like I said, I have a McIntosh and enjoy it, but I can see it being my last SS amp. As for tubes, I refuse to die until I have owned a venerable MC275 so the adventure continues.
Even my largest amp (quicksilver v90 monos). still sounded like they clipped too low. I wasn't getting great bass nor great treble. It was essentially a softened midrange. Musical? I'm sure people call it that. I call it inaccurate and inadequate. Abbey road engineers stated the solid state sound was much more accurate than "valves" were. (Abbey road doc is streaming)
I have used Dynaco A470 OPT's in my current amp (40 W RMS per CH.) they weigh approx. 7lb's and are of the Ultralinear type and I believe these two factors make all the difference in sound low to high Hz , I am not lacking in bass or treble but still have a very clear midrange.
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi That is whole misunderstanding that we carefully watch sope if there is any 1dB slope at 20 Hz but in room we experience variations ranging 20 db depending on our listeners position and position of each single ear. It is mostly because are three disasters - one is we do not measure cooperation of speaker - amplifier (we test amplifiers without spakers connected) , Second is we forget maesurement speaker peformance - even it is it's tolerance is 5 dB even in middle. Third - we accpt that room conditions may be any and we are not curious about it because it is no way to measure
Thanks for your videos. Have you thought about doing a tutorial for us valve/tube amp owners on how we can do our own tests? I'd be interested in measuring my own now to see when the clip and what harmonics they produce. It would be an interesting and useful watch to see how you'd go about these measurements using as basic as possible test equipment.
I showed and described the procedure in excruciating detail in the old video from which much of the footage was excerpted for this video. Its title begins, "Amplifier Power Ratings ..." I first posted it on my first channel in March 2022, and it was among the first videos I posted when I made this channel. It's only gotten about 100 views. I could do a separate, new video on testing and the minimum equipment needed.
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi thanks I will take a look at that and if you were to create a new one I'd be sure to watch that too now I've discovered your channel.
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi hello again, ive watched that video and it seems relatively straight forward to assess max power before clipping at different frequencies, though only by eye given were looking for visible distortion of the wave form. But how would we go about driving a load to 1% distortion, then analysing what harmonics that distortion is made up from and how much of each there is? Thanks
I am using a tube guitar amp for my guitar it came with Chinese tubes and changed them over for vintage new old stock British tubes and the sound changed and it would also for hifi amps.
Some people claim to hear qualitative differences among tubes. Others claim the differences are in volume alone, e.g., new tubes are generally louder than old ones.
For 20+ years I've owned Transcendent Sound's T-16 OTL monoblocs employing 16 Soviet era 6 S 19PV miniature triodes/channel in the output and there is no issue with the Bass. Flat to 5 Hz, just have to build them from nicely detailed, instructions, which may scare off a few.
Thankfully there are many options for tube amps with more than adequate power for most applications (40-90W) at lower prices and lower levels of complexity than McIntosh amps.
While watching this I had a thought...I have never tried it so I may be talking out of turn. What about using a tube preamp and solid state power amp? Also one could use (or build) a double ended push pull tube amp, I know from working on guitar amps they do sound different but it might be worth a shot. Thanks for the upload!
A tube preamp is a reasonable option. People also use so-called tube buffers, which are unity-gain devices. In both cases, the idea is to add pleasant-sounding-distortion devices to the front end and use a solid state power amp to accurately amplify that distortion. Skunkie has a video series about designing and building a purposefully colored preamp. I explain the appeal in a recent video about single-ended tube amps. Not sure what you mean by double ended push pull. Double ended isn't a common term but seems like it would be synonymous with push pull. Maybe you mean parallel push pull? In any case, the output transformer is nearly always the bass bottleneck, although push pull amps can get away with smaller output transformers than can single ended.
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi I mean, double ended push pull amps...if you have 2 output tubes in push pull configuration. I am not an amp designer so I may not rereferring it it in the correct nomenclature. But, in the guitar amp world it is referred to as double ended push pull amp...just sayin . And yes I have a tube buffered Phono Preamp in my home stereo. I love it! Peace!
Cool! Yeah, sorry if it sounded like I was shaming you for your lingo. Definitely not intended. I'm not far removed from being a total noob, so it could be me who's just unfamiliar with all the lingo. (I mean, if you've got single-ended with one tube, it makes perfect sense that two tubes in a push-pull configuration are double-ended.)
@@briancampbell7712 Sorry Brian, I didn't mean to ignore your comment I just now noticed it. Tube buffering is where a designer uses a tube with little or no amplification factor to just distort the signal in a pleasing tube amp sounding way. The actual amp is solid state with tubes in the signal path to make it sound like a tube amp but the tubes do not do any amplification, they are just there to color the sound. To answer your question no it is not better than a tube preamp feeding a solid state power amp, it's just cheaper to build (I would assume anyway)
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi No worries! Yes, in the guitar amp world double ended means two output tubes working in unison (or 4 if you are talking like a Peavey Heritage or Deuce) I am also familiar with the paralleled output tube amps which (if memory serves me) increases the current to a degree (not as much as push pull) but more than a single output tube. The argument being it is still a single ended amp with mort power but not as much as a double ended push pull design. With a decent negative feed back loop I think it would sound good...maybe! LOL. Maybe someday I'll build one to see! Have a great day! Edited to add...The Heritage puts out 130 watts into one channel and the Deuce 120, so yes tube amps can make plenty of power! Of course this is into a guitar speaker with no crossover and is around 100 db sensitivity so much higher them the average home stereo speaker at like 86 to 91 db sensitivity. Just thought I should throw that out there.
My Dukane 1A830 with 6- 8417s will blow a lot of amps away, it's a monorail PA booster amp, it will drive 2 cabinet's with 4 15" & 8 tweeter in each cabinet, you can hear it for miles when set up outdoors. tho thing has massive iron in power & output transformers, I just wish I could find another one but been looking for 40 years, they must be really rare.
I do not know who and how came to that conclusions about transformers which are repeated each time in the same phrases. I build my stereo amp myself with mostly Philips Ideology only i appled another SE tubes and aligned better tone controll circuitry It has about 4 Watt power /ch At the same time I use anopther15/ch Watt tube amplifier type PP build by Bell in 1963 and another 70W /ch solid state PP amplifier made by Uher in 1969. My ammplifier uses little transformers - like 35x35x20 mm - Bell has double bigger and solid Uher hasn't at all- it's playin even down near to DC And made by me amp with so small transformers drive lowest tones to speakers better than two other which is (in normal engineering) hard to explain . You say good transformer means heavy steel but any makes low range poor All of them use comparable speakers which can deliver by ear even "from" 25 Hz Why?
Small transformers can sound good as long as they're not pushed past their limits. Most transformers seem to do well down to 100 Hz. Below that, the best design will roll off the bass to compensate for the limited power the transformer can handle. Also, mixing engineers in the 60's rolled off the bass in the mix so that the music would sound good on the systems most people were using. Another factor is that most people, most of the time, listen at moderate volume. Finally, max power is generally measured with a steady tone, but real music is more dynamic, and amps of all sorts can deliver more power for shorter duration. Take all these things together, and you may not reach the limits of a low-power amp until you try!
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi That doesn't clear everythig because each element pushed past limits can;(should) sound bad We shouldn't concentrate on range where we push them too far. If I say lowest bass it is not as high as 100Hz - it is realy around 30Hz I have my own observations, they are much more complicated - and they expalain all concerns - more loudness of tube amplifier and, when using modern high power speakers, fake lack of bass , "warmth" of their sounding which in generaly presented clips (at least for me) is unwelcomed, Problem is that in 4 W Hi fi I do not need to provide more than 4 watts in range of below 50 Hz - in true Hi fi music low bass power requirement is much less than power consumed by say 300 Hz. Apparently many people like to make lowest bass prevailing.and need for it huge power with big transformers Anyway thank you.
I generally only notice the bass problem with certain songs. Usually, if I crank up the volume, I notice general distortion before a notice it specifically in the bass. And once there's a lot of distortion, I perceive it across the spectrum. It's not like the bass is distorted and the rest is clear, but bass-heavy tracks distort at lower volume, unless I turn down the bass.
