Thanks for watching. I know some people are able to get better fuel economy with a tune, what are your experiences? @AdeptApe on Venmo or AdeptApe@yahoo.com on PayPal for donations, thank you so much for supporting the channel! Check out these recommended tools Amazon Affiliate Links: Fuel Pressure Gauge, Compucheck 0-300 psi: amzn.to/3YeBldu Airlift Cooling System Vacuum Filling System: amzn.to/3D9AlPu Radiator Pressure Tester Kit: amzn.to/3QGBumn Milwaukee 3/8" Right Angle Impact Wrench: amzn.to/3D2CvAk Adjustable Height Parts Tray 100 lbs: amzn.to/3CBusZB Engine Oil and Fuel Dye UV: amzn.to/3z34zkv UV Professional Grade Light: amzn.to/3gzxPc0 Allstar Oil Pressure Priming Tank: amzn.to/3L5pASm Oil Pressure Priming Tank: amzn.to/3YuBrNr
Hi Josh, off topic request, I was thinking about how nice it would be with someone of your expertise to do a couple videos of some of the more common CAT engines sensor identifications. Where they are on the engine and where the information is sent, either to the ECM or to the gauges on the dash. Also if they are prone to failing or if they are not reading right if it’s the ECM or wiring that is more likely the problem. Thanks for all your videos. Very helpful information
Retards like you are funny to watch. Always creeping around corners looking for that next boogeyman. China can manufacture to ANY tolerance, and CAT knows tolerances. It's is a wicked rare day that ANY aftermarket is better than OEM.
Depends on the situation, Tier 3 and newer off highway equipment install a migration file, ditch the EGR system and CEM, install a less restricted muffler and let that baby run like it was designed to. Fuck the EPA! Cheers! Justin
I work on a lot of antique tractors and we are stuck with almost all aftermarket parts. I had a manifold to replace and the only one available was an aftermarket one that was supposed to be better then the original ones were that had problems rusting out. I'm sure the aftermarket one was better and it was built heavier but it was an absolute pain to install. The studs were barely long enough, the one nuts was next to impossible to get on and there was a throttle rod bracket that needed to be modified because of the design change. Another interesting thing about that engine is it had a hole in the block like the destruction of the week, but it was actually repaired. A rod must have come out the side of the block and even damaged the starter because that was welded. Someone spent allot of time doing a nice repaire job so that I didn't see it until I started talking stuff apart
said " I had a manifold to replace and the only one available was an aftermarket one that was supposed to be better then the original ones were that had problems rusting out. I'm sure the aftermarket one was better and it was built heavier but it was an absolute pain to install. " So you would rather had one that was lighter but frequently rusted out? Ever think that since the aftermarket one was more durable, it needed to be thicker heavier requiring some modifications ?
Pretty stock here ... I know the more a motor is upgraded, the more power gets put out, then other parts might not hold up . . . Only as strong as the weakest part
Die hard CAT Only right down to the filters!! The only part on my 3406B that is not CAT is the turbo. The CAT warranty is a lifesaver. I can vouch for this from experience.
When i worked at Cat, we chased a white smoke issue for weeks. Come to find out, the customer stuck a marine cam in it. It was fine until it went back to stock programming. If you want reliability, stock is the best. I dont see a reason to need more than 625 hp. You can overhaul an nxs or mxs and up the power to 625. I think that's plenty, in my opinion.
WELL JOSH, I am NOT in agreement with you. Why? because I have a stock C7 in my vehicle and blew a HUEi PUMP.. Paid 4k for a new part. I drove it 30 miles and the new part failed. They would not return the part. I will not ever pay the cost for a re-man part from cat again. I will use reman parts from other before I buy another cat reman part. I also have had cat not pay e for cores. I am just done dealing with cat on reman parts.
Sorry to hear that Cameron, not sure the reasoning on why they wouldn't take the part back and give you another one. They have a 1 year warranty from Cat and the dealership is supposed to honor those. Obviously some dealerships are better than others. I have seen low hour failures on HEUI pumps as well, but they were always covered.
It really depends on what you want out of the engine. If you need reliability then most of the time stock is the answer but if you are past the warranty or the truck isn't essential then there is little harm in going for more power via the aftermarket. It will always be a risk especially if you upgrade incorrectly but sometimes it can be worth the expense.
Hybris you are spot on. If its a secondary hobby truck and one wishes to "turn it up" for kicks. Im all about it. I leave my company stuff bone dead boring stock. Every day those vehicles are down, for any reason, I stand to lose a substantial amount of money. The high performance stuff is a blast to play with. But if you're driving your equipment long distances, mountains, etc., and it has to make it across the country in short notice. Its stock for me. Cheers!!
Id be more for reliability upgrades on a stock engine thats used for working than id be in more performance. My example is for a totally different engine ,but an upgrade to cast aluminum water outlets from plastic ones on the vws is a great idea. Im all for aftermarket parts that actually fix a known issue, those can be a little more hard to find.
We had a truck engine come in, aftwr reviewing the product status come to find out someone illegaly turned up the HP. Disassembled the block found it was cracked, the truck guys tried to cut the block to max and the crack was still too deep, block no good!
Cat only here. But this video brings to mind that fabricated intake that Deboss put on that 7 liter. Ram air!!! I showed that to my 3126 guy & he said it could cost $$$$ to make one from a machine shop. (really??) So we painted up the old one lol Cheers!
Having the intake flange cut out at a shop(Iirc oshcut did it?) was probably the most expensive part. Other than that it's just pipe & some flat stock. If you can weld aluminum, it's not that difficult...that's why he's got his neighbor Vince on-call. It's a good thing he doesn't do any customers work then, huh?
Totally makes sense, I’m in agreement but what this scenario that we have. We have C15 bridge engine (MBN I think) anyways, this thing since day one (bought new) can run pretty hot, and will not kick in the fan till it hits pass 230’F. We drove for 12,000hours then it blew the head gasket. Cat techs say it overheated, so did in frame and replaced all cooling related parts. But still runs hot up hills. So what about your thoughts of just programming the ECM fan engagement settings to a lower temp say 220 or 210…. What’s your thoughts? currently the operators kick it in manually up hill every time it goes over 210-220
Mbn is close to a 6nz but the mbn had more issues because of the ecm file. They ran it leaner for emmissions and it tends to crack the manifold, exhaust housing and other parts. If you are out of warranty you may want to look into going with a normal boost controller and a “good “ file. It would run as well as 6nz did in its day.
Simple answer NO.😂 Nothing on my yellow motors comes from cat their reman parts sux now Custom tune on c12 e model and acert. Custom injectors on all three Heads are all port and polished. HE IS speaking facts on heads studs and exhaust studs had to get arp make mine I'm a gearhead so I don't own anything stock AND I MEAN ANYTHING. 😂
I have a 6nz in a log truck. Been pumped for its whole like to 760hp on first tune and 850 on kill tune. Never had an issue. I know I’m prolly lucky but I’m gonna keep pouring it to er til it starts telling knock knock jokes. I’ll decide then.
instead of changing hard parts, what about a rerate for the ecm. I have a c-13 in a Kenworth t600. I am more concerned with better economy than to beef up more horsepower, it is a 440 hp rating from the factory
Cat warranty and the stigma around it should you modify something is quite simple, here is the details from the Cat wty document: Caterpillar Warranty is Caterpillar’s legal commitment to provide customer protection for product/part defects in Caterpillar material and workmanship during a specified period of time or product usage through the Cat dealer. A manufacturer cannot void or cancel their product warranty.
ECM's are the biggest problem. If you have a failure, who can you take it to? Also on a warranty repair you have to submit a warranty report. If the last tool number on the Cat system (not customer parameter) is illegal, warranty is denied. No matter if it looks all correct. Cat cannot say what you have done to the engine. I was talking to Josh about this one. Came in with a misfire above 1500 RPM's and or when you let off the throttle. Only lasted a few seconds, no CEL or codes. According to the owner, three sets of injectors installed, internal harness, external harness, two fuel transfer pumps, all engine sensors, fuel filter base, all fuel lines, and ECM. I worked on it for a full day, could not isolate a problem. No air in the fuel, fuel psi OK, tried another test ECM, etc. Came back another day and again spent another day on it. Found two cylinders acting up, installed two EUI's, did not fix it. Finally pulled the cover off the back of the cam and had the wrong camshaft in the engine. Also had an ACERT that the IVA's was deleted. Customer bought it and wanted it back to stock. Again problems, contacted Josh a few times. Ended up replacing all three IVA housing. Modify if you like, expect a higher repair bill when it breaks. Had a former tech with his own shop bring in a busted liner, aftermarket. Liner broke near the top and piston got into the block. Sent parts back to them and they told him you built it dirty. I looked at the part and it was OK. They would not pay for the repair. So naturally he will not purchase from them anymore. Buy cheap, expect cheap.
We have done a lot of head gasket repairs after the customer had a VVA delete done, we usually have it set back to stock. The PDI exhaust manifolds are good though, don't leak in the joints like cats does.
I have thoroughly enjoyed my stock 2WS Cat. The only thing I have changed on it was to install a ceramic exhaust manifold. It dropped the EGT by 100° and increase the fuel economy by .1 miles per gallon. Never had any issues with a “full tilt” ceramic exhaust manifold.
Bought a 2020 glider with a reman 6nz set to 550. It wasn’t powerful . It had a light spring wastegate and made 24psi. After some time. Swapped a 1999 era 28psi wastegate and a good file and it was completely different. It’s out of warranty because of the file but most issues come up in a year or so . Hopefully goes well. New files are gutless. Some guys run a second ecm but everything comes at a risk.
I would have to disagree with what you say about CAT warranty. I had a driver who told his truck to a CAT shop for a platinum rebuild, when he got the truck back he had more oil leaks than it had before he took it to them. Upon closer inspection we noticed several things that was not done or done correctly. It took over a year and a couple months of lost pay for the guy because of the poor job done and they insisted that he continued paying for the subsequent repairs that should not have been required after the rebuild. That didn't put a very good light on CAT and their warranty to me.
If they had an OPT done, workmanship is covered by the original repair. I have to disagree with you about the warranty. A lot of bad tech's in the field. Hard to find a good one. I take pride in my work and when you find a good tech, stay with him.
That's definitely a good point, you never know which dealership has great mechanics or not. There are a lot of places with tons of inexperienced guys out there. You're paying $160 an hour and the guy with 2 years of experience is making $20 an hour and has a tight quote to finish in time.
Exactly why a dealership rebuild isn't always better. They are getting paid by the job, so the quicker they get it out the door the better for them. That's where the independent guy "shade tree" as it was referred to may be better. Jimmy impact might be faster, but Johnny torque wrench gets it right.
There are absolutely better parts available then Cat oem, the real question is if the changes are worth the cost. Modernizing injectors is a great way to to improve fuel efficiency and power, but that also means paying modern injector prices along with the associated fuel system upgrades to make the fuel pressures required by those modern injectors. Is the performance increase worth the cost? Well only the one paying the bill can decide that, for me I stick with cat parts so I can get them off the shelf anywhere in the country. My pickup on the other hand makes more power then my truck, the old 7.3 is down to party all the way till I find the next week link lol and at this point I’m expecting the transfer case to explode as most everything else has been redone and upgraded
Years ago had a guy running a big cam 855 Cummins bring his truck in for an in frame. He insisted on using his own parts. The pistons in the kit were almost a quarter inch shorter from pin to the top. I showed him the difference but he insisted. My service manager should have kicked him out but told me to do it anyway. Talk about hard starting and smoke. No power. He was adamant that the piston height had nothing to do with it and it was bad workmanship.
I`ve been in shops where they have put a sign up on the wall, to shut down customers from bringing their own parts in. They don`t want to go down that road anymore, because it repeatedly came back to bite them. And I don`t blame them. The alternative would be to state to a customer that if this shop supplies the labor and parts, the job has xx warranty, but if the customer supplies the parts, then the customer is on his own once the job is complete. Yeah, if a customer insisted that a quite-obviously incorrect part(s) be installed, I`d show him the door, too. Sorry pal, but we not gonna touch that with a ten-foot pole.
That’s always a bad deal in the end. The customer wants to be right so they won’t believe it’s anything they did. Not much you can do change their mind. Often you end up just zeroing out the bill and sending them away. And, hoping they don’t get much traction telling everybody how terrible you are.
He dropped a bunch of compression and that’s not good for diesels, if it was an insignificant amount then it would have been ok but not by that much on all cylinders.
A warranty isn’t what it used to be with the parts on back order most warranty clams are on emissions parts that lower fuel mileage and engine life BUT WE ALL KNOW ITS ILLEGAL SO DONT DO IT OR THE LONG ARM OF THE LAW WILL PROVIDE A LESSON IN FAFO 😂
I absolutely agree on all points. However, I'd like to add another point for aftermarket, which is availability. Dont get me wrong. Cat has a fantastic ability to track and ship parts, I have first-hand experience in a cat warehouse. It's that it still takes time, something that needs to be up and going yesterday for whatever reason can't afford the downtime of waiting on a part from overseas or shipped across the US. This generally doesn't apply as hard to schedule shop time but more emergency repair onsite or on a major operation. Why would you wait 3 days and pay x ammount in shipping when fleetpride or whatever down the road has an aftermarket part for half the Cat cost.
Had my 2003 C 15 files uprated from 475 to 550 and installed a Champ II to eliminate the entrained air and it's much peppier, only other upgrades to engine will be full tilt exhaust manifold and switchblade turbo, also to change operating performance will be going to 18 speed from 10 speed and rear gear change
Hi Josh, love the content, I somewhat agree with keeping it stock. When it comes to tuning and adding hp I believe in stock but as for certain components, I’ve rebuilt several engines and the cost of a complete rebuild kit up here in Canada opposed to reliable aftermarket kits is usually 4 times the cost, so most customers choose that route. For example a fuel transfer pump for an old 950 loader with a 3304 engine is $1900 from cat and only $150 aftermarket
Not all Cat dealers are the same Some are terrible on warranty issues even with an obvious warranty related failure. Also if you use an aftermarket part and you replace it with a genuine Cat part you probably won't be allowed a core charge .I am also curious how long overhauls using aftermarket parts last compared with engines using genuine parts. It might not be worth the savings
I have to disagree or tskr iss6 with the money spent on engineering. Cat can still be paying off a trillion dollars loan it took to do the engineering and a bean counter will override and chooses an inferior part for cost effectiveness and price point reasoning. It happens quite a lot. GM for instance did just this. Documents produced in a lawsuit settlement showed that engineers complained about weak springs used in thr ignition components after an accountant decided using a thinner spring in the ignition cylinder would save a lot of money. People might not remember but there was a problem with some GM vehicles around 2014 shutting off after going over a bump. GM initially blamed it on heavy key chains but eventually had to do a recall to replace that one spring. Ford had similar issues exposed with their exploding gas tanks. They decided it would cost more to recall cars than to pay out wrongful death claims. They continued producing the affected cars until a new model csme out to avoid retooling mid production.
@@AdeptApe ive heard that, every time we get a parts warranty claim the customer is so mad when we tell them it doesn't cover labor. oh well. them's the brakes kiddo
Buy your desired factory horsepower engine from the start..! “you can pay now, or pay later”…, when it is most likely to be at the most inopportune moment. After all what do we know, that we think a 100 or so CAT engineers don’t…, hahaha..! Great video Josh, Thank you sir.
Cat , Cummins , Detroit , go with genuine most of the time . the oem parts are better most of the time Not because of warranty, nobody warranty shit ,there is always a reason not to cover warranty. Yes there are times when I use aftermarket parts , like 3406 pan gasket i use magnum (1) piece pan gasket not cats junk puzzle gasket . Warranty is not a reason to buy parts, if there is such a big warranty is there something wrong with the part ??
Reminds me of back in the early eighties when I started working, ECUs and cracking the codes were the thing, but a lot of people who had remap or chip swop only got a blown up engine, or poor fuel consumption. Then the main/premium tuning guys put out a statement that brought the problem home. Modifying the ECU is pointless without also making the correct modifications to the engine itself. The ECU is setup for the engine manufacturers design, specification, and intended use. Take the tune beyond those limitations and there are compromises, unless you also upgrade major components and ancillaries.
I like stock the older I get. So many reliability issues caused by tunes and aftermarket parts. I am not warranty guy. I worked at CAT dealer for 8 years. 0.1% redo and very little warranty on CAT parts or labor says a lot.
Well if an aftermarket head uses more nickel it's stronger. It's not a matter of design, but better materials. It costs more for a high nickel head/block than just cast iron.
Weve got a c15 in a kw that we cant keep a headgasket on. Weve probably done it 6 times now. Making 62psi which is high but we cant figure out why. Customer probably doing something fucky behind us
Hi Josh, I'm a former driver from the UK, I've heard a rumour about ceramic coated piston tops, that apparently aid fuel economy plus add horsepower, are CAT going to use these and what are your thoughts on this? I believe from what I was told that the testing was done on series 60 detroit engines, but how true that is I don't know. Thanks for the video's mate, some what keeps my head in the game. 🇬🇧
Cummins had at one time ceramic coated liners and pistons for the L10 engines. They didn't last long and the failure rate was something like eighty percent in over the road engines. They were a lot better in constant RPM engines such as air compressor and generator applications..
Great Topic! And like the real man of genius once quoted. "The bitterness of the poor quality remains long after the sweetness of the cheap price is forgotten."
To me I guess I would stay with Cat, unless the other parts were of the same quality as oem. As far as power I would upgrade the power with marine parts and set the ecm up as such to use the parts properly. This would be on a truck I was keeping if it was one I would possibly sell then I would likely do a rerate on it and call it good.
I wished i had a picture of it. When i was young i was working on 2 cycle road oilers. I felt luckey when an 855 cummins bc 350 came in it had a missfire and no compression but running silent . When we tore the engine down we found the rod broke at the wristpin and wrapped around the rod jurnal on the crank. It did not punch a window in the block for some reason
besides spacers plate leaks and cracked cylinder heads cat is still a good engine I own 2 glider kits a 2ws and 5ek I got a few things done perfomance wise on both my buddy runs a 5ek totally stock and he had spacer plate leaks and a cracked head so that being said I don't think putting a little extra fuel or a little tuning has a lot to do with it!
Only thing I did to my ACERT C15 was put a PDI Big Boss manifold on and a PDI tuner to compensate... Put on the PDI replacement compounds since the CAT turbos were leaving some metal dust inside the boost tubes exiting the AA cooler....Wouldn't want to touch anything else...
What about if you go to Pittsburg power and get there 550/1850 stock tube for a 6nz. You haven’t altered the horsepower or torque but it’s basically a cleaned up version of the stock cat low nox tune. Would that invalidate a warranty?
They would be expecting to see the latest version of a Cat flas file for that engine in the system. A quick check in TMI would reveal a non-Cat flash file. That could result in claim denial.
The older the engine, the better it will work and the longer it will last. New engines with computerized systems constantly break down, old mechanical systems don't. It's that simple.
I learned a long time ago that over the long run OEM parts are cheaper. I learned this on a 1983 Ford Escort. The stock tie rod ends were $40 at the time, the aftermarket ones were $20. The stock ones were sealed and the aftermarket ones had umbrella seals, that were turned upside down when you installed them, thereby collecting water and dirt. The OEM ones lasted about 40,000 miles and the aftermarket about 20,000 miles. I did the work myself but I don't consider my labor as free. Recently I put a new front end in my F150, the Ford parts were actually cheaper than the aftermarket if I bought them through Ford's web site. That's a hard deal to beat. Keep the good stuff coming.
I'm a computer guy and know very little about trucks/etc, it's the same in my world, can parts run higher/faster sure but they are designed to run at stock speeds/heat levels/etc, now I am all for modifying your gear, but it isn't designed for that and that's the choice you make, more speed/better performance at the cost of maybe a part dies, but it's your choice, my feeling is go for it if you don't mind and warranty isn't an issue, but if you just need it to do a thing than leave it stock.
Somewhere around 25 or 26 years ago, a co-worker (turned broker) had his 3176 in-framed at a Caterpillar shop. That went fine, until halfway through his next trip, an injector tip broke off, made its way out the exhaust valve, and destroyed the turbocharger. When the truck was towed to the nearest Caterpillar shop, they tore things down, and figured out the problem. He was on the hook for 100 percent of the damage. Caterpillar and the Cat shop that had performed the in-frame, said `no warranty`, because the injectors had not been replaced at the time of the in-frame. Well, the owner had been under the impression that the in-frame included 6 new injectors, but it had not been the case. And of course, who travels with their invoice with them? He had to get somebody to go to his home, get the documents, have them faxed back and forth, and the truck was down an extra 2 weeks while this battle went on. In the end, Caterpillar left him high and dry, and on the hook for the tow, and 100 percent of the repair. So, as a result of that, our company dropped Caterpillar like a hot rock. The boss went to ovloV, and (at the time) Detroit. At the time, I questioned it, but as far as the Detroit engines, never had a regret. The ovloV truck was a whole (or perhaps HOLE) `nuther story. As for the truck owner, the engine lived on happily, and eventually he got the bad taste out of his mouth, but he also had a permanent hate-on for all things Caterpillar. He was happy with the performance of his engine, just was left feeling screwed over by the level of package he felt he had been steered into when he was deciding on the in-frame. Myself, based upon the sheer number of bad experiences I had seen others have, I have become very wary of stealerships. It seems nobody but the stealership, ever comes out a winner.
I bought a high pressure oil pump from cat for my 3126 and paid someone to install it while I was out doing my jobs, I normally would install myself but had work to do, nevertheless it cracked 6 months later, ring power cat warranted it for me and installed it for free
After watching the issues a good friend had with his engine after having it break down 2 states over and being turned away from several garages because of the mods that he had done with it, I was convinced that stock was just fine with me. I've added some cooling fans onto the radiator in my 96 3126 Pusher RV, but the core engine is exactly as it rolled off the plant, and I don't intend to change it. Could I do things? Sure. But when it ran like a champ last year for two different vacations with zero problems, my view is why rock the boat? They made it that way for a reason, so who am I to modify and change it and end up with an engine that no one is willing to work on if needed (or if I can't for what ever reason).
Ecm = broken for no reason. There is no reason to put computers on an engine unless you don't want it to work for long. Mechanical systems do not need electronics.
Has there ever been a scenario where an aftermarket has a “fix” or better designed part for a CAT part that is prone to failure? I hear about that in cars.
Exhaust manifolds that Cat sells are junk. States made in China right on the part. They leak exhaust at the front slip joint. I tell customers to buy PDI or some other high quality manifold.
Cat was always good with their warranty. I believe Cat was far ahead of their competitors. I imagine Cumapart, Detroit and Volvo were very happy when Cat got out of the OTR engine market. Now Josh you’ve got to talk Cat into going back in to the market.
Do people ever down-tune their engines? Like if I'm not dealing with a ton of weight and want better gas mileage, would down-tuning the engine a bit work if you don't care too much about power (to an extent obviously) but want better gas mileage or reliability?
They don’t particularly get better mileage turned down from regular stock levels. Often the medium/heavy duty stuff is already turned down compared to what it could make. Reliability often does get better by a little bit. But, not particularly much as they’re already basically turned down stock. Much of the fuel mileage is going to depend on how it’s driven, where it’s driven, what kind of truck, and what it’s hauling.
I worked for patterson uti drilling. They turned all their trucks down for fuel mileage. It was stupid for a drilling rig moving outfit because its heavy haul. They used more fuel because the trucks worked harder because they were turned down. But the drive train lasted longer
Down tuned our 60 series Detroit. Wasn’t hauling heavy anymore and turned it down 100 hp. Seems easier on everything, 9 mpg, and don’t need power for towing light.
Im sad rite now. My t800 with a c13 with emissions went down last week. She developed a slight tap, sounded like an exhaust manifold leak or maybe a cracked manifold. Got back and it needed a regen, ran the regen and now its a lot louder. Sent it out and they think it needs a cam and lifters. If corporate decides not to fix her because shes over a million miles on the truck, I'll have to drive a western freight star liner with a cummins. Ugh. Shes also bone stock with 400k on the inframe. New ard head and brand new dpf. Plus rears have been rebuilt and clutch replaced. Its almost a new truck already.
Honestly, my opinion on modded engines lines up with yours. If you buy stock parts then you know anything you get from cat will fit and run. Additionally, what happens if you buy an aftermarket part and that aftermarket place goes under or changes the part and the new one no longer works afterwards without a lot of modifications? Something that has happened to me on my MX13 during the parts shortages by the way.
Companies like Caterpiller spend billions on product engine development to producing the best balance between reliability, economy and performance. How some backyard mechanic who fixes things in the dirt thinks he knows better is laughable. Some object to the costs of authorised repairers but when your farm, mine or long haul business depends on reliable plant etc, paying a bit more to get a backable result makes sense.
