Shut Up About Group B 

The Group B is not overrated, the rest of the eras are underrated

In group A years engineers understood that putting 600 HP to a rally car was useless because they couldn't even use all that power due to tyre spinning So they started to focus on other fields such as Suspension, durability of all components, aerodinamics and in few years they matched the Group B speeds (just like he said in the video) And also talking about spectators, watching the rally highlights of the early 2000 (the years of the new wrc regs) oftentimes happened that some stage had to be cancelled coz there were too many spectators, so saying that there were no fans after Group B it's just nonsense

THANK YOU, finally someone said it! Group B was fantastic, but the amount of overhype that turns into hate towards today's WRC is ridiculous. I guess it's the typical case of "you only appreciate something when it's gone" - in 20-30 years, we'll probably look back at the Rally1 spec through the same rose-tinted glasses as we do with Group B

This situation reminds me a whole lot of the 787B. It’s great that the car won, and that it was the first Japanese car to win at lemans. And it sounds wonderful sure. And I love the Renown livery as much as the next guy. But as soon as people started insinuating that the reasoning for rotary powered cars being banned was somehow due to the dominant performance of a car that only had one podium finish in its career is insane to me.

Most people who want Group B to come back wouldn't even watch if it did. Rally is relatively hard to follow as a spectator. Every form of motorsport used to be hard to follow, but now only rally is like that. WRC lost fans to F1, WEC, etc., and it won't regain them anytime soon.

The cars were fucking awesome, but that neverending glorification of the class with facts that have little to no basis other than people hearing them in some videos and the therefore resulting hate towards todays WRC is one of the most annoying things in the rallying/motorsport community. I'm so glad that someone took the time and effort to debunk most of the things people say about Group B.

Here before the mf tiktok motorsport "experts" come to "prove" their shit

I just wish modern rally allowed different engines, all of them sound the same and without Subaru they're all straight 4 turbo engines. I wish we could have v6s, i5s, etc. Getting the sounds of n/a, turbos and superchargers would make things interesting. I know this can't happen in the modern era but I maintain it'd make it more exciting.

1990-2004 were the best years of WRC. In the 90s cars were somewhat relatable to their road going counterparts, which gave consumers a lot of awesome cars to purchase. The competition was generally tighter, the top drivers all had unique personalities and strengths/weaknesses, the actual races were more interesting. I believe within 2 years of Group Bs death, Group A cars were already setting faster times on legacy stages. The series got boring when Loeb came into it, stopped watching it after a couple years of that and it never recovered into an exciting series, it just got worse. Now the cars are super goofy and there isn't much of a equal playing field. 1990s-2004 had a lot of car manufacturers dumping huge piles of cash into their team efforts.

tiktok has really ruined everything for me

Hard agree. Group b was a fascinating time, the cars were cool and visceral. But so are group a cars. And wrc. And the 2017 cars. And rally 1. And rally 2. The main issue with rallying since the turn of the millennium is the dominance of the Sebastians. And that's no one's fault , they were just miles ahead of everyone. I still love those cars

I think that the biggest thing group B actually has over modern rally is the aesthetics. The cars looked... I don't even want to say "better," but they were more unique looking. Today's rally cars suffer a cookie cutter appearance, not through any fault of rally, but because of the cars they're based on. And that's honestly it. Well. Also, there's no 5-cylinders making glorious noises, but that's fine, I can make them myself, I have a Volvo.

In 1992 Richard Burns bet an Armada of (By then ageing!) Group B Metros and Mantas to win the 1992 Mintex Rally Championship. Driving a Group N Subaru Legacy...

The reason you don't hear modern rally drivers complaining about their cars going too fast is because they do not use 1980s differentials, suspensions, tires, etc.

I hope this video is exactly what it teases to be "Group B was awesome...but.."

Group B? How about you Group my (B)alls?

It’s actually very interesting to get these myths debunked, as a self-proclaimed Group B fan who never watched a single stage. IMO, the cars not only were the coolest, but also had insane performance for the era’s standards. A mid-engine Peugeot 205 or the all wheel-drive Audi Quattro just flying across the gravel tracks while the drivers try not to kill themselves, just how crazy that would’ve been back then.

Hot take for general public but a good argumentation essay going against common missconceptions about 80s rally cars worship There is lies a hope that WRC's ‘Drive to Survive’ aka 'More than Machine' will bring more public attention to tense modern WRC championships

Were Group B cars awesome? Yes. But do they deserve to be hailed as by far the best rally cars of all time? Nope. You can just like them more you know, you dont need to make up 💩 and nonsensical alrguments to justify you liking them better

I have always thought that Group A was a lot more interesting by the competitiveness and also the amount of constructors and also champions that came and went. At some point there was like 7-8 factory teams from several different car brands. Don't get me wrong I like Group B as well but, Group A I have always thought is the peak of WRC. Not to mention the underrated era and short lived category of the FIA 2-Litre World Rally Cup. I really like those FWD kit cars and the tarmac stages. But I do find Group B prototype cars really interesting. Like the Daihatsu Charade DeTomaso 926R or the Ford Escort RS 1700T.

If Group B cars were faster than F1 cars wed have to go to rewrite the universes physics rules😂

just fyi, a few weeks ago Mr. kankkunen himself said that this current rally1 cars have the closest feel to a group b he ever had with any rally car. the cars have been already faster than the group B already in late Gr.a era so imagine the brutality this current drivers have to face every event...

My opinion on the estoril myth is that there’s a short layout that cuts out the middle sector and they’re comparing dry rally times to wet f1 times. Then I think it is foreseeable that the delta could beat the f1 cars

Great video, groub b gets dickridden than any other class and for very little to show for it, and I say that as a dude who will die by the opel manta 400 lmao. Even the cultural impact, ask any kid on the street what their favourite rally car is, they’re gonna say subaru, they’re gonna say mitsubishi, some of the more savvy ones might say ford focus or mini cooper. Same for drivers. At least in the UK, if you ask about rallying, chances are the other person will reply “uhh the sport with colin mcrae right?” Group B, at least for the wider general public, did not leave nearly as much of an imprint as Gr. A or the world rally car era.

I agree most of your statements in the video even though I wouldn't be so strict in expressions as you are. Some addition to the different topics you scratch. 1. The Estoril case. Your comparison between an Audi Quattro S1 and an 80's Lotus F1 car on a narrow, dry rally stage quite pointless in the case. First of all on this kind of stages had the Quattro the biggest disadvantage to a Delta S4. It was very understeery car (as all the Audis ever since usually are), had a quite big turbo lag and had to accelerate a few more additional kgs after each and every corner. In the meantime the Lancia was agile, with supercharger-turbo combo it has overcame the turbo lag issue and was much lighter. Secondly the condition in Estoril was a full wet on which the highly laggy F1 turbos got in an even worse situation when the punch came. And as I heard the Lancia put their new triflux engine in that Delta S4 which meant to be in the new Group S car and at the final stage it was said that it produces 800HP, but at the beginning it has started from 600. So we had a non-homologated 600-800HP 4WD car on a damp track against the 1000+ HP 2WD cars of the 80s with very unpredictable behaviors on those conditions. (And as I heard the story back then it would have qualified on the 6th place on the grid, so it wasn't the fastest anyway, just placed well) 2. Drivers of the era (as in many other disciplines of the motorsport) required more experience (to understand the car, learn and enhance the driving techniques) and were less athletes compared to modern drivers. The speed the modern R1 cars capable of are so insane and requires so sharp reactions sending at its full that young athletes with the quickest reaction times are a must. Sorry, I have to go now, but will continue ...

Its just a bunch of kids that know nothing about rally and only ever watched motorsports through RU-vid highlights

Pretty much every history of Group B I've seen has made it clear that it was unsustainable and was lucky to last as long as it did.

Group Boomer: Understeer was for men

i was always a bit confused about why people talk about group b as if it had no rules when it's brother, group c, was literally right next to it

Im not an expert on rally cars. But I am on LMP cars. Just for perspective on official powerclaims by manufacturers in motorsport: in 2010 Audi claimed to have 600hp and 1050Nm in the R15. The acceleration curve and the Topspeed prove they ran 750hp and 1300Nm in racetrim and could turn ut up to 800hp when needed. Thats a cool 25% over the claim. I would strongly advise everybody to just add 25% to every manufacturer powerclaim in Motorsport. Unless the class is fuel flow regulated, then you can do math with the energy flow. Audi claimed 571hp in the 2015 R18 RP5. With the 50% thermal efficiency they had on that Diesel they will have had at least 640-650hp....

I just like to talk about 1986 portugal. No specific reason. All jokes aside, i think its called the best since it reminds us of the days when WRC was at the top of motorsport, everybody wanted to be part of it. Group A threw some punches too. But when you look at WRC now its kinda sad? Three manufacturers left, ford dosnt provide enough financial support for teams to build a fast reliable car. And Hyundai will remove manufacturers support for 2025 from what ive heard. So its just toyota battling itself.

I would argue that even though modern rally cars are faster, they are just more sophisticated then Group B Cars and not more interesting/better. You can clearly see from footage that they are way better balanced, less snappy, smoother and overall less primitive than the Group B cars. The group B cars probably demanded more attention and management compared to modern cars, even though they were slower, and therefore also demanded just as skilled drivers. There is in my opinion an argument worth making about drivers being braver back in the day then what they are now. I can back this argument up to. Look at Walter Roehl, who refused to drive the Lancia 037 in certain events because of how inherently dangerous it was. You do not see modern drivers do this. I am all for safety in motorsport, but the danger, the lack of fear in the clips of group B, they show us a simpler more primitive time, and I think thats where a lot of the appeal comes from. Group B was also clearly a huge hit with the fans. More people watched group B then people watch modern day rally. Why? Cause it was more interesting! I love a lot of cars, but my favourite cars are mostly old rallycars. I must say the older cars like Group B, Group A, 2000cc, kit-cars and so on speak a lot more to me then modern cars do, even if they are inherently slower. They have a certain soul modern cars have lost. The road-cars (ok maybe not spesifically Group B) have a more direct connection to the rally-car. I agree with almost every point you are making being factually true, but you can not convince me that modern rally cars have the same charm, personality, soul and appeal that the older cars have. I do mostly not care for modern rally, but seeing an Audi Quattro or an Alpine A110 makes my heart skip a beat. So far I have owned 3 cars, 2 old Subarues and one 97- Celica. Why? Cause they are just arguably cooler, more charming machines then a modern Toyota Yaris or Skoda Fabia. They also have a closer connection with the racing/rally versions then the modern cars have. Modern rally suffers from the same things a lot of other motorsports (For example NASCAR) suffer from these days. That being the cars not actually being based on their road-going counterparts, or not having rules allowing them to differentiate themselves enough from the other cars. More variety makes the cars less generic. Ok, go on, tell me why I am wrong... xD Love your videos, likes this one, I will watch your next video too.

A good point of comparison is modern GT3 cars. They’re not super fast in terms of top speed and acceleration, but their aero and cornering capabilities are so strong they can still make good pace anyway

Rallying is one of the few sports that never really ‘fell off’ in terms of spectacle imo

what this video mostly made me think of is that modern WRC really needs something like slightly spicier Rally2 at the top level, maybe a slightly bigger restrictor, maybe some aero regulation tweaks, but nothing too fancy - keep it simple and more cost-effective, just like Group A after Group B. and also as transparent as possible, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms. EDIT: they actually already did this twice - the 2011 cars, as comparatively forgotten as they are nowadays, that kept the lights on for the championship, were basically modified S2000 cars with new engines.

You know? The Group B I would've really liked to see was the Road Racing Group B. Oh yes, most people don't even know that Group B wasn't meant to just be a Rallying rule set, it was supposed to also be a rule set for GT cars. However, the immense success that Group C saw, essentially killed Group B GT cars before they even had a proper chance and most of them just ended up being Group 4 carryovers. There were cars specifically created for Group B GT cars, and by that I mean just the Porsche 961 and the Ferrari 288 GTO Evoluzione; the 961 raced like twice or thrice and the 288 GTO Evo never saw any action. I suppose they could have ended up kinda similar to IMSA GTO cars, but I don't know, we'll never know. Group C ended up being King and then you had Group A Touring Cars, while Group B GT cars just never had their chance to shine. Had they gotten that chance and ended up ike silhouette cars, they could've been great successors to Group 5 cars of the late 70's. In any case, I very much agree with the video. Group B was great, but it has been shrouded in too many myths. One that I'll always find funny is the claim that it was more popular than F1, because, I mean.... They say the exact same thing for Group C, so what is it? Was F1 just randomly the 3rd most popular motorsport in the mid 80's? I highly doubt it. Group C also has ridiculous myths, but that's another story, the point is, while Group B was great, when you properly look at it, it had severe problems. MG Metro 6R4 for the win even if it was a pile of junk.

Hi Failed Racers. My name is Cameron Greenwood Cramp AKA CGC. I'm an Aussie. I'm almost 28 years old. I was born on February 6 1997. I live in Melbourne in Australia AKA the land down under. I am the biggest fan of IMSA in the land down under too. I've been into IMSA for 20 years now. And I love it. It's actually my favourite motorsport nowadays along with the World Endurance Championship AKA WEC and MotoGP & the 24 Hours Of Le Mans. Back in the day, I used to be into all motorsports, but not anymore. It's been like that for the last 10 years also. My favourite IMSA season is every single one of them. From the classic original IMSA from 1971 to 1998 and new IMSA from 2014 onwards. My favourite races in IMSA are the Daytona 24 Hours, the 12 Hours Of Sebring and of course the Watkins Glen 6 Hour held at The Glen. My favourite World Endurance Championship or WEC for short is every single one from 2012 to present day. Watkins Glen AKA The Glen in Upstate New York, where they make steamed hams, is the best race track in the United States of America. Also, Francios Cevert is the greatest French person of all time, apart from Rene Arnoux, Alain Prost, and Albert The 5th Musketeer AKA Albert De Parmagnan. And also, 1989 is the best Le Mans ever, along with 1965, 1966, 1967, 1969, 1970, 1981, 1994 and 1995. The Le Mans 24 Hours is my favourite race of the year and my favourite sporting event of the year too. Le Mans is my favourite race track in the world along with The Glen AKA Watkins Glen and Bathurst. Jim Clark and Ayrton Senna are two of my favourite drivers of all time. They are two of the greatest drivers who ever lived. Colin McRae and Walter Rohrl & Henri Toivonen are three of my favourite rally drivers of all time. They're tree of the greatest rally drivers who ever lived. Burt Munro along with Freddie Spencer are two of my favourite motorcycle riders of all time. They are two of the greatest motorcycle racers who ever lived. The Ford GT40 and the Ford Mustang are two of my favourite Ford's of all time. Two of the best Ford's ever made. Dale Earnhardt and Richard Petty are two of my favourite NASCAR drivers of all time and two of my favourite Amercians too. The Dodge Viper RT/10, the McLaren F1 and Mini Cooper are my favourite cars of all time. Search And Destroy by Iggy Pop And Never Gonna Give You Up by Rick Astley are two of my favourite songs of all time. Along with Colorado Boy At Heart which is a song that wrote and recorded entirely by myself. It's also fun little song about Dan Colorado AKA Dan Dougherty who's from Colorado. Cool place. Albert The 5th Musketeer is my favourite cartoon of all time and The Young Ones is my favourite TV show of all time. Albert The 5th Musketeer AKA Albert De Parmagnan is my favourite Musketeer too. I'm the 6th Musketeer. Grand Prix Legends AKA GPL is my favourite game of all time. The Shawshank Redemption and The Incredibles are two of my favourite movies of all time. 1967, 1976, 1989, 1991 and 1997 are five of my favourite Formula 1 Seasons of all time. James Hunt, Nigel Mansell, Barry Sheene, Striling Moss, Mike Hawthorn and Ken Miles n David Purley are my favourite Brits of all time. Dan Gurney is my favourite big tall guy. And also, Dan Gurney is my favourite person with the name Dan too, apart from Dan Wheldon and Dan Colorado AKA Dan Dougherty too. Chris Amon and Lloyd Ruby are two of my favourite drivers who were great despite having a bad luck reputation. On Any Sunday and The World’s Fastest Indian are two of my favourite motorcycle films of all time along with Race For Glory and of course Silver Dream Racer. David Purley AKA David Charles Purley is my definition of an absolute hero. Kork Ballington and Jody Scheckter along with Jon Ekerold are three of my favourite guys from South Africa. My favourite female racers are Penelope Pitstop and Janet Guthrie & Dancia Patrick. Ford VS Ferrari, Rush, Senna, Grand Prix, Le Mans, Race For Glory: Audi VS Lancia, Days Of Thunder, Talladega Nights and The Love Bug & The Last American Hero are my favourite car movies of all time. The Driver as well. My favourite Australians are Jack Brabham, Peter Brock and Mark Skaife. Bruce McLaren, Burt Munro, Chris Amon, Denny Hulme are my favourite Kiwi's of all time. Also, Lorenzo Bandini and Valentino Rossi are my favourite Italian's of all time. Jacky Ickx is my favourite all around driver and my favourite person from Belgium. Aguri Suzuki is my favourite person and driver from Japan. Great country. Ronnie Peterson is my favourite Swedish person and the greatest person from Sweden too. Ayrton Senna, Emerson Fittipaldi and Nelson Piquet are three of my favourite Brazilian guys and three of the greatest Brazilian's who ever lived. Henri Toivonen is my favourite Finnish person and the greatest person from Finland. Pedro Rodriguez is my favourite Mexican of all time and the greatest Mexican ever. Jim Clark, Colin McRae and Jackie Stewart are three of my favourite drivers from Scotland and three of the best Scotsman ever. 1971, 1982, 1992, 1995 are four of my favourite Indianapolis 500's of all time. Jaques and Gilles Villeneuve are two of my favourite Canadians of all time and two of the best Canadians too. And Jeremy Dale. 1992, 1995, 1997 (CART) are three of the best IndyCar Seasons ever and three of my favourites. 1979 is my favourite Daytona 500 ever along with 1997 and 1998 & 1976. The 1979 Daytona 500 is also my favourite NASCAR race of all time apart from the 1992 Hooters 500. 1979, 1992, 1996, 1997 are four of my favourite Nascar seasons. 1974, 1975, 1976, 1978, 1979, 1980. 1984. 1994, 1995, 1999, 2003 are favourite Bathurst 1000's of all time. 1993 to 2007 & 2013 are my favourite V8 Supercars seasons ever. Two of the greatest male cartoon racers are Speed Racer and Tom Slick and two of my favourite male cartoon drivers too. 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1973, 1982, 1984, 1997, 2003, 2012 and 2014 are my favourite Daytona 24 Hours and are the best as well. 1966, 1967, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1983 and 1995 & 2012 are my favourite Sebring 12 Hours and are the best too. Niki Lauda and Jochen Rindt are two of my favourite Austrians and two of the best people from Austria. Juan Manuel Fangio and Carlos Reutemann are two of the best Argentina racers and two of my favourites from Argentina. Clay Regazzoni and Jo Siffert & Alain Menu are my three favourite Swiss people. Three of my favourite drivers from Switzerland. Steve Kinser is my favourite Sprint Car Driver of all time. Like with most people. 1982 to 1986 which were Group B, along with 1995, 1998, 2001 and 2003 are my favourite World Rally Championship's AKA WRC's. 1998, 1997, 1995, 1994 and 2018 are five of my favourites in the British Touring Car Championship. 1966, 1967, 1970, 1971 and 1989 are my favourite World Sportscar Championship's AKA WSC's Every single 500cc season was and is my favourite Grand Prix Motorcycle Racing Season, especially the ones that Freddie Spencer was in. And finally.... Walter Rohrl is my favourite German and easily the best guy from Germany. :)

Manufacturers didn't drop the WRC by 1986. In fact, many renewed their commitment to the series, with many others announced their intentions to join the series. 1. Peugeot 2.Lancia 3. Ford 4. Toyota 5. Skoda 7. Audi 8. MG Majority launched and tested group S prototypes (a group b with more relaxed homogolation requirements) The only one decided to scrap their projects and leave was Audi and their reason was safety concerns and brand association with fatal accidents. It was not cost nor technical complexity

Group a in the 90s was peak wrc era

It's true toivonen only did a lap on a modified unrestricted 800hp delta s4 posting a lap that would have put him in 8th place on the grid of that year f1 grid still impressing

Although Group B is cool, i also thought it was overrated. (Specially by people who don't know anything about rally). My fave era from WRC was 1997 - 2004

I feel like it's one of those things similar to those arguing about how "80S FORMULA 1 WAS SO MUCH BETTER THAN TODAY'S F1" - The very second you start to dig into why they feel that way you begin to see certain parallels to today's sports and also see similar problems from back then. Group B just gets particularly mythologized due to how it's downfall was. But I'll be part of the chorus that claims, correctly, the following Group A style of WRC was faster and had more actual competition and is just as, if not more, entertaining to watch.

Go back a letter and forwards in time, Group A was the GOAT.

Group B. 1982 to 1986. This era of rallying was by far the best. Same with the Colin McRae era from 1987 to 2006.

I get the your point. But: If you have ever seen, heard felt and smelt those cars you can't overrate them. I have even driven one. Absolutely insane. WRC1 cars are almost as insane and awesome to watch. If you can go to a rally PLEASE do it!!! But just not that visceral. But want to know something: that's the same with every modern car. Modern perfection makes them less exciting. That's not a bad thing though. And, trust men those 380hp 1,6 Liter 4 pots in WRC1 cars Sound great. And are hilariously loud. Louder then most other modern racing series. Group B are awesome. So is WRC1. And while I will always come to see Group B cars driven around, that doesn't take anything away from WRC1. The only criticism with WRC1 is that the engines are almost identical. I would prefer more variety.

20:35 I haven't checked the 1986 documents, but if it was the same as the latter years - A7 and A8 had the same rules regarding modifications, A7 is the "up to 2000cc" class and A8 is "more than 2000cc" class. Of course two A7 Golfs don't have to be equal (neither two A8/B12/N4 cars).

The internet: "Those were real men going all out, not caring about anything but going fast" Walter Röhrl: "I don't like jumps"

In Poland, our local TV channel shows All Stages of all WRC/ERC rallies and it's about $7 a month

Thank you for saying this. Up next, can we talk about how Colin was overhyped?

In short, boomer nostalgia is cringe

Every fanbase has these types of fanboys, Initial D kids in the JDM scene for example, but you're blowing this waaaay out of proportion. None of these myths are even remotely common in the WRC fanbase.

Well Group B was the peak… …until it wasn't. My favourite WRC cars are from Group A (Lancia Delta HF Integrale Evoluzione, Mitsubishi Lancer WRC and Subaru Impreza WRC), so Group A was good, same as later. Group B is not the regulations were rally cars were perfect

The first song in this video is called "Aryx" by Karsten Koch, btw.

I love Group B, but it was NOT faster than Group A starting in the early 90’s. Group A is also the golden era of rallying in my opinion, it was perfect, the cars, the teams, the drivers, etc. Group B was still fantastic and a hard start to beat as it kickstarted rally popularity, but I feel like Group A is overshadowed by Group B, thank you for covering this. Rally 1 is also faster and doesn’t deserve the hate it gets, I enjoy it and I’m proud to own a Evo 1

you know its bs when someone said something like the BMW M1 is a Grp B car so I'm glad someone said something like this

Finally a video rant about how overrated group b was, worth subscribing, thanks!!!

I’m just going to leave this here; Metro 6R4 (being driven hard by a competent rally driver) 2.41 60ft 34.33 finish time 2.14 31.54 2.04 32.25 2.02 31.35 Volvo C30 full weight road car (driven by me, baby seat in back, 316bhp, road tyres) 2.81 35.17 2.75 32.77 2.76 32.80 2.63 32.06 0.71 seconds difference between us, and 0.61 of that was purely launching off the start line (4WD vs open diff FWD), meaning a full on Group B 6R4 posts basically the same times as a Volvo. Oh and just for laughs from the same event; Impreza S12 WRC 2.19. 30.25 2.14. 29.41 2.18. 28.88 2.17. 28.69 (Using launch control with Rocket ALS!)

Although I agree that group b was NOWHERE near as F1 but that delta was a specialized spec with around 45psi, 1000bhp, slicks and extra downforce.

Thank you for making this, much needed. Like I love group b and the cars, but the people who clearly haven’t ever watched any form of Motorsport ever but watched some donut media ass video about how it was soooooo insanely fast just ruin it. It’s like any time there’s a video of somebody racing super bikes you got the “BUT MOST DANGER IS ISLE OF MAN 🤓” They’re like the Supra kids, the Ninja h2 kids, the 500cc gp guys. People saying modern moto gp “rides itself” because it has a ride height device lmfao. and that it isn’t close racing when it’s as close as it’s ever been this year. These surface level “enthusiasts” for anything are seriously insufferable

All i can say is big thank you for this video and for realistic aspect with which it was made and for going for facts and not a telltale stuff. First video i see about Group B without overhyping it and for looking at the category with grounded point of view. Again,props for making it.

Sounds about right. Group B was a brief, crazy period where the governing body got a bit silly. It was never going to last, as it turned into a Rallying arms race. The '86 cars were bad enough, but the developments that were due for '87 were insane. As an example, Ford were developing an engine for the RS200 capable of outputting over 700hp, and I have no doubt the other manufacturers were heading in the same direction. Group B was fast at times, but it was also fragile and barely capable of staying under control, as the powerband of the turbo engined cars could be summed up as nothing, then EVERYTHING, then gearchange, repeat, and hope nothing broke in the meantime... Still, in it's time, there was nothing more spectacular, especially if you'd seen what came before...

Not really relevant but I think a video on Ken Block from you would be interesting. Yeah he wasn't the best rally racer but he was still a legend in his own way that every racing fan should know of

Yes, FINALLY! I extend this sentiment to other 80s/90s racing classes. - 90s F1 had more electronics than current F1 and the races were boring as hell most of the time. - Group C drivers rarely went flat out beyond qualifying, races were decided by several laps and wheel to wheel racing was rare. . BTCC supertouring races were shown as edited highlight reels of the best moments with at least partially scripted commentary by Murray Walker, and the series still produces fantastic door-banging racing to this day (you'd think it died after 2000 the way people talk about it). - 90s DTM had weight penalties and performance adjustments from the governing body, so anyone who claims BoP "kills" racing is ignorant at best. Oh, and there's articles from Wild West times about "real men" no longer being a thing, I despise that whole narrative.

I've been a racing fan all my life and can say that motorsport, in general, was different in the 80's. The rules were a lot looser, the cars were often extremely delicate and events were more dangerous in general, they also had the benefit of the bottomless pit that was cigarette company sponsorship money funding all the development. We're now looking back at that era with somewhat rose tinted glasses, and there's a lot of people who weren't alive at the time (I'm 41, so I do remember it) that have built it up in their heads as being this amazing lost decade of motorsports, and it was...up to a point. Things did have to change eventually, and they did in the 90's when safety in pretty much every major global series started advancing by leaps and bounds, so things like driver fatalities became so rare that when they happened they were major news that got treated as legitimate lead stories rather than just sports stories stuffed in at the end of the broadcast. The tech continued to advance, the drivers got better and better, and I actually believe that motorsports as a whole are better than they've ever been right now.

I never shut up about group A, real cars not spaceships, that spawned many amazing cars people are still driving and obsessed with today

the tik-tokification of rally and its consequences have been a disaster for the motorsport community

something that bothers me about the "new rally cars are easy to drive" crowd is while technically true. the difficulty comes in actually being fast. a grippier car with equal safety standards will be much more dangerous because you can push harder, and a 50mph corner will turn into a 80mph corner.

0:25 I was there when it happened. The NitroRX car clipped too much of the snow bank which was the reason why the Quattro won

My only reason for liking group B is that I really liked the boxy car designs of the 80s. Same reason why I really enjoy the 70s of drag racing. I just really like boxy cars.

NAILED IT. I've never been able to articulate this so well. Bravo!❤

personally Group A is my favorite.

Yeah 100% agree. I mean it took a couple of years for rallying to recover from Group B fully (especially due to that Lancia dominance that happened for like 5 or 6 years) but once they basically went bankrupt and they pulled out in 1993 (?), Group A and it's competitiveness really became great. Not to mention, the coverage for rallying was just better in the late 90s compared to the 80s when Group B took place, which really is what makes the Group A formula so memorable. On broads were now properly a thing, with better cameras and GPS alongside that comparison thing that started being used. However, in terms of the "aura" alone, nothing in Rallying will ever top Group B for me. The crowds, the danger, bullshit engineering, the trickiness and the wheel spin of the cars all encapsulate the true spirit of rallying for me. Sliding into every corner, blasting the throttle on exit, wrestling the cars make the drivers look like superheros. Yeah, all those that came after them like Burns, Sainz, Loeb, McRae are probably some of the best to ever do it, and they have these superhuman abilities, just doesn't feel like mythical beings like the guys and gals from Group B. The matter of fact is that Group B was much harder to drive than Group A. Once again, I'm not saying that Group A cars are easy and the drivers are less talented, because that is simply untrue. It's just missing that romanticized adventure feeling, you know. Either way, the overrated nature of Group B doesn't make it bad, and just because some people on tiktok are making up BS stuff, its still true that it was probably the peak of the "spirit of rally". But the golden era of rallying continued well into Group A till the Loeb dominance. If i have one small thing to critique, I really hoped that rallying had gone in the route of Group S after cancelling Group B instead of Group A becoming the de facto no.1. With the manufactures that were planning to enter the WRC's new Group, I'm sure it would have satisfied both fans of what Group A became, and fans that still want Group B.

In my personal opinion the golden age of rallying was from 2001 to 2006 with 2007-2008 still being really good years. Lots of amazing drivers in a legendary roster of cars

Group B is faster than Group A, WRC, and R1 in simcades because you're able to drive them like modern cars as opposed to the relative paper tigers they were. That plus they're given performance boosts to play on nostalgia. It's the same reason Group C cars are faster than LMP1 and hypercars in simcades.

I can't speak for others, but look, I'm a Group 4 and Group B fan, let's focus on Group B, though, and, yes, absolutely agree, the speed claims are ridiculous and non-sensical, well known fact Group A's surpassed Group B's in a matter of years, and also as you put it yourself, the specifications of the cars themselves simply can't make them quicker than then-contemporary open-wheelers. But that's not the point. In fact, neither is "real men," cars being hard to drive. And the whole flat-out driving, close finishes and competition thing isn't either. If you want any of that, in any motorsport discipline, then modern motorsport is right for you, that is pretty obvious. Me personally, what I like about Group B is just how interesting the cars were. All unique, engines of all types and sizes, any chassis, engine location and drivetrain combination possible, and the bodywork... It's Bernard Beguin's M1 Procar doing tarmac stages, a car completely out of place there, or the Porsche 911s, similar cars you'd expect at Le Mans, rather than a rally stage. It's the hatchbacks like the Peugeot 205 and Lancia Delta (038) (and the modified old Group 4 Renault 5 (now Maxi) Turbo) with engines in the middle. The RWD still being a thing (yes it was a thing in early Group A as well). And the "rally-prototype"-esque bodies of the 037 Lancia and RS200 Ford. A bit less car-related, but as you mentioned it, I mention it as well, the rallies were longer. Rallies were comparable to World Sportscar Championship's endurance races in length. You had to make it to the end, nurse the car through, sometimes, more than 1000 km. And the cars, as stated in the video, were fragile and unreliable, requiring further care. The finishes were minutes apart, competiton was rarely very close, at least on a rally-per-rally basis, but this is not what I'm asking for. I like to see just how big of a gap can a certain car and crew pull on others, be it in endurance racing or rally for this matter. This is the reason why I think the Group B regulations of the WRC were, together with Group 4, by far the best. Should Group B come back? Well no, it shouldn't, it's a thing of the past, that's where it should stay. But the cars of today, simply don't interest me. Sure I follow WRC these days, but I'm not merely as interested in 1.6L inline 4 turbo hatchbacks with, let's face it, similar bodywork solutions and similar performance, do what would be the rally equivalent of a hotlap for 17 stages straight. You may like it, that's fine. I don't. I could draw parallels to other big motorsport diciplines (sportscars, touring cars), it's an almost identical story, but that's irrelevant here.

The current Rally1 cars are just completely insane. So much faster than Gr.B, but not undrivable pieces of junk you need to nurse around to not break them and to not die. The racing is very close and honestly much more exciting than ever before. The hybrid management is also a massive thing and hard to execute right, but i still think the sport will be better when the hybrid system is gone

I love Rally 🤘🏻 Group B was some of the most experimental racing, safety was an afterthought and it was in an era where people wanted to have fun and COULD. Although they are slower than the cars of today, I don't want to safely microwave my burger through a window - I want it on the grill; where it's hot, smokey, difficult and unsafe 💪🏻 I still believe group B to be the greatest Rally class, it ain't the fastest, but sure tickles me pears.

Great points made mate, these new rally 1 cars are absolute animals, and the drivers are top notch today, look at Kalle Rovanpera, he can jump into a drift car and hang with the best

I was kinda expecting ine of those "Please stop liking this" videos but I'm actually pleasantly surprised. I love Group B, it's an incredible era that gave birth to cars that likely wouldn't have existed - at least not in the same capacity had it not happened, but the idea that WRC "sucks" because it can't do what Group B did is just ridiculous. Group B is an era to respect and look back on, but it shouldn't be used as an example and reason to hate newer generations of rally racing. Without Group B we likely wouldn't have the modern rally racing we have now, so be grateful the sport still exists, Group B very well could've been the end of all rally racing as much as it was a pioneer of modern rally racing too, restrictions and safety precautions to make drivers and crowds safer is not a bad thing, it is a good thing.

Great video, great footage, great arguments. I really hope this video blows up. This mythos is actively hurting the WRC since there's a decent chunk of people who don't bother watching it because they think it's some unfortunate remnant of a former glory time. I long for an era where it's worth it for brands like Skoda, Dacia, Renault etc. (I'm still on the copium that Lancia is gonna be back and not suck) to participate on the highest level of rally.

I'll start by saying that I follow rallying by the late 90s when I was growing up as a kid so I never experienced real-time Group B rallying, one of my favourite PS1 games was Colin McRae rally 2, then I came across the "Evolution of rallying" DVD given with an auto magazine here in Greece like 20+ years ago and I was hooked with the sport and its entire history, my favourite driver is Markku Alen and my favourite manufacturer is still Skoda, so by having the necessary knowledge about the sport my position is this: -Whoever disregards the rallying scene before and after Group B is wrong. There are so many amazing stories to tell, from the early days of the Safari rally and the first winners driving VW Beetles, to the mythical performance of Walter Rohrl in the Arganil stage of the Portuguese rally, to my main man Iaveris winning special stages in a modified Group 2 Escort against the works Group 4 monsters, and of course the damn Lancia Stratos to name a few, so plenty to learn and get excited from even before Group B, that's clear. -But on the other hand, I deeply dislike the modern era (I'd pinpoint it when Seb Loeb retired from full-time rallying and Seb Ogier taking over) because everything to me seems to be too much sterilized. The cars, the drivers, the rallies themselves, the presentation, the lot. I don't feel connected to any driver nowadays, despite the fact that some of them seem to have an adequate level of talent, they are, and I'm sorry, boring. The cars are boring too, but that's probably due to the undeniable change of the car culture during the last 3 decades, an i20 or a Yaris or a Puma won't bring to anyone the same joy and excitement as an Impreza or a Lancer or even a 306 Maxi, let alone the minuscule manufacturer representation of 2 and a half makers compared to 13+2 makers which officially entered rallies in the 1986 season. And the rallies are too small, instead of television adapting to rallying, rallying adapted to television and that killed the spirit of rallying. Who cares how much is the charge of RallyTV if the product is inferior at its core compared to 90s to mid 00s. Again, that's my personal views, coming from a guy closing to his mid-30s and probably being too old to judge, but the sport lost its edge, it'll probably never be as popular in the Group A-early WR cars era ever again, no kids will have Thierry Neuville's i20 poster in their bedrooms as oppossed to countless kids in the past hanging pictures from Saabs and Volvos to Xsaras and Fabias. Rallying now is close, is spectacular, is relative safer than ever before, probably faster than ever before but sure as hell, it's not cool like the Group B years...

Oh my god, finally someone who agrees with me! i've always preferred Group A and Group N and it's nice to see someone who agrees that Group B is overhyped for what it is

Intersting thing about Group B is the fact that if it could go further there is a chance that all the cars would evolve into something very simmilar in basics: short wheel base, mid engine, preferably hatch body, thus killing the myth about uniqness of Group B. We've seen that with Lancia, Peugeot and Metro.

I just want iconic Martini livery back, that's it. Well... maybe Marlboro too. Although, Hyundai i20 N Rally1 livery is kinda cool too, so... it's not all lost.

I just like the fact that group b used manual transmissions and the cars were just absolute contraptions we should merge modern rally and group b just to see the insane doohickeys and contraptions that the engineers develop (yeah group S)

I was 14 to 19 and a race fanatic at the time, and your right, but nostalgia is like that. People over remember, what was great was that here in the Uk the general involvement everybody was into it, it was discussed almost like football.

Nostalgia is a blinding force. Everyone looks at edited highlights that show 1% of what any favourite era of motorsport was but in reality it was the same as motorsport today. F1 during the 80’s turbo and V10 era was most races were meh like todays F1 apart from the V10 era where is was basically the Ferrari show. Also much to the common myth the 1980’s F1 cars did not always have 1000hp. A select few did have 1000hp in qualifying trim with qualifying spec engines, turbos and tire which blew up after barely two flying laps. In the race the cars would have had 800hp which is still impressive but every 5-10 years the horsepower estimations jumps another 200hp or so. Le Mans/sportscars have been generally the same for decades but with technology advancing. NASCAR let’s be honest here, has been the same close racing for the last 30-40 years only with added gimmicks in the last 20 years (that’s another kind of rant) Australian V8 Supercars haven’t gotten boring but the series is all about fully professional drivers in highly reliable cars finishing 161 laps of Bathurst mostly on the lead lap. However, the fans think the days of Peter Brock winning by 6-9 laps one year is amazing racing. Again I have a much longer rant about that too. I’m starting to think I should upload videos ranting about motorsport categories 😂😂😂😂

I think that group a was called underpowered due to a comment Walter Rörl did 1987. that he was underwhelmed by the power of the gruppe A car he had and hence forth he was quitting his rally career

todays wrc is unbelievably faster

The reason I like Group B is more philosophical than anything. The F1 story still has a bit of meaning, even if other comments have pointed out some problems with it. For a production-type car to throw down a time like that is huge, because an F1 car is a fragile, overengineered machine. Its one and only purpose was to be driven as quickly as possible by a single person around a prepared paved circuit in the summer, and so it was built entirely around that. An F1 car is less a car than a bathtub with wings and fat slicks. There is no room for a passenger seat or even a tiny amount of cargo. No place to mount headlights; to do so would be to mess up the aerodynamics anyway. To drive an F1 car on a dirt road, at any speed above perhaps 15MPH, would destroy it. The Group B car, on the other hand, had to be durable and adaptable enough to perform well under any and all conditions, it had to be repairable if/when crashed, and because of how rally works, it had to at least be possible to finagle a license plate onto it. That, to me, is peak car. The ultimate all-rounders, at least for the technology of the time. Absolutely unfathomable performance, in a car you could at least theoretically drive to work, even if you live someplace where sports cars usually have a hard time. To be sure, there are problems with the F1 story, and the engineers didn't stop engineering so later classes were once again very quick. But what sets Group B cars apart is the way they pushed the limits of their time with vehicles that were technically street driveable. Nothing since then has tried to reach that high, relative to the technology available at the time, in cars with doors and more than one seat. Given that all-rounders are my favorite type of modified car, that just plain speaks to me. In terms of favorite individual cars, most of mine do come from other eras. But as far as philosophy goes, what's more "peak car culture" than a brick ahh hatchback that can go from 0-60 in 2.4 seconds, on a surface where most cars would struggle to do it in 6, at a time when at lot of cars struggled to do it in 10 on any surface?

I'll not say GrB was the best, but it was the ultimate bonkers. Therefor the drivers must've been the best. Miki Biassion to this day wears a t-shirt saying 'I survived group B.' It's like the UFO club. If anyone claims to remember anything about it, they weren't there, man! Like the F104 starfighter. Very good at one thing, rubbish at anything else. And it killed people.

The most reasonable argument for the Estoril/Toivonen case I've seen is that the comparison F1 lap time is taken from the 1985 race which was held in abysmal wet conditions, and Toivonen did his time in the dry.

As someone who has been a spectator into the 90s and later part of the sport, not WRC but local championships, I really like that era and feel nostalgic especially when I drive those cars on simulators. BUT, I drive a gdb WRX and dream of one day owning a Lancia Integrale or Escort RS. Group A was faster, had better handling cars, better drivers, more organized rallies and as a result it was more exciting. There are many statements I would debate in the video but overall, I agree.

I'm not a big fan of rallying, I'm more of a circuit racing guy, particularly single seaters, but I do think that even with the problems it has, e.g. the low car count in the top class and the current discussion over the future of hybrid power in the series, there's still a lot to like about the modern WRC. It pretty much comes down to the fact that whatever the health of the series, whatever cars are running, whatever manufacturers are competing or not, because of the scenery they race in and the drivers' skills, you're still guaranteed some spectacular action in a WRC event. Even with all the myths that have sprung up about Group B, there is still something quite otherworldly about any footage of it that I see compared to footage from the decades since. The cars (seeing an Audi Quattro in person going up the Hillclimb at the Goodwood Festival of Speed in 2019 was really cool for instance), the fact that the roadsides are so crowded that in some places the crowds are literally parting as the car hurtles towards them, it all looks like a complete madhouse and full respect to the drivers of the day, they can't have been easy things to drive, especially considering their power, turbo lag and fragility. But today's rally cars aren't easy to handle either; while they're not as insane in looks and sounds like the Group B cars are, they are bonkers in other ways, and today's drivers are in my opinion just as 'gladatorial.' In fact, to be honest, I think any rally driver of any era is a 'gladiator' of sorts, it is quite frankly an insane discipline of motorsport. I put rally drivers up with motorcycle racers as surely some of the craziest racing drivers/riders. It's a lot like people saying that racing in F1 or IndyCar or even the ATCC/V8 Supercars, was better in *insert decade here* compared to the modern day. It's a very rose-tinted argument which when you dig deeper, doesn't really stand up in plenty of cases, at least in my opinion. The further back you go, the harder it is to make a concrete case that 'racing was better back in the day.' Of course, it's all subjective and depends on what you're looking for in a race. Nostalgia is a powerful thing, and I think we're all guilty, for want of a better word, of it to an extent, and it stands to reason that we only remember the best bits, not necessarily what happened on average. Interestingly, and I don't know if it's just me and the way I've settled on topics, but when it comes to motorsport history I've tended to be more interested in late '90s/early-mid 2000s motorsport all the way up to the present day, rather than say, the 80s and early 90s which everyone seems to talk about. E.g. the Schumacher era in F1, CART/Champ Car during the Split, and the AU Falcon era in V8 Supercars (1999-2002). What I honestly find hilarious about for example F1 in the Schumacher era is that a lot of the negatives that people talk about when it comes to F1 today (e.g. dominated by one driver, cars can't follow or pass, controversial penalties and rule changes) were very much present back then. And it doesn't just apply to F1, I've found it applies to other series as well. The more things change the more they stay the same, I guess.

thanks for this, i made a comment under a mattias ekstrom IG post saying that GrpB was overrated and they skinned me alive lolol

Great video on this, thank you so much for making it and I hope it reaches many of these people who need to see it! Group B was great and I love it. Those cars are the dream. But so are the Group A cars and WRC cars and now cars at the top of the Rally pyramid (not exclusively just Rally1, but also Rally2). It's just extremely overrated. I would love to see it live, because it's something completely different to today, but people need to shut up and watch what rallying brought us in the later years. Everyone's calling Group B the Golden Era of Rallying, but it's simply not. The real Golden Era for me (despite not really living through it, I was born in 1999) is Group A from 1990 (after Toyota caught up with Lancia) to WRC in 2005 or so (before many manufacturers left and the era of Loeb dominance really began). The only thing that Group B really has on Rally1 is the variety and the amount of manufacturers involved. But then again, unlike the stability of the 3 Rally1 manufacturers (or rather 2 and a half) we have today, many manufacturers tried Group B, but most would fail and just fade out within a couple of years. So in fact, there wasn't that many of them competing at the same time. It actually reminds me of the current situation, where Toyota and Hyundai have 3 or 4 cars at every rally (just like Peugeot and Lancia had in 1986), while M-Sport usually runs just 2 (just like Ford, Audi, MG or Citroen would mostly do in 1986). The difference is, you'll always have at least those 8 cars nowadays. Like it was mentioned, some of the flyaway rallies would be skipped by many manufacturers to cut costs. Some of those rounds didn't count for the manufacturers championship, so teams would have no incentive of going there, other than perhaps helping their driver in the driver's championship (about which most teams didn't really care). Some teams would even skip rallies at the end of the season if the championship was already decided. Nowadays, the Rally1 teams simply have to go to every rally and bring at least two cars. Every round counts for every championship in the current WRC. Also, the amount of manufacturers and cars is also inflated by the fact that the lower class cars were also counted, despite not competing at the very top. If we counted the super successful Rally2 class, we'd find out that despite not having many manufacturers competing (since most just run a customer program nowadays), we actually have many cars competing (and that's before you add in Rally3 and the other lower classes). Not saying WRC is in a great place right now, but it's in a better place than near the end of Group B.

Current state of Rally1 has shown maybe not trying to bringing back Gr. B isn't that bad at all. And even if it wasn't Corsica accident, Group B would be short lived anyway. Escalating costs would drive manufacturers away, switch to Group A with ease, and Group S would still remain unraced.

I like Group B (21 year old boy here watching), but I unfortunately have to agree. Group B was Group B. There are no comparisons to today's Rallying classes. You know what else is overated... Formula 1 of the 80s... The Turbo era... sure it was dangerous as all heck, and sure, it had beautiful paint jobs, beautiful sounds, and skilled drivers, but Turbo F1 was Turbo F1, and it certainly cannot be compared to today's F1 outside of a dumb winner or track stat. It can also be said of other racing classes (DPW over DTM, V8 Supercars over today's Repco Supercars, JGTC over Super GT, Group C over LMP, Grand Am over IMSA, or NASCAR Gen 4 over NASCAR Next Gen)

I love how i can identify the clips that I myself used for a group b video thing lmao nice one btw

Excellent video! Group B was cool and all but Group B RX is where it's at 😎