We did a quick experiment with a Kruve sifter to see how deep and how quickly water penetrates coffee grinds. The results may be surprising! To learn more about coffee, check out our online courses at baristahustle.com/unlimited
This is interesting! Data + coffee :) yessss. I will get a bit nerdy here too: one thing that would greatly strengthen the conclusions of your experiment would be to increase your sample size for each group. Technically, you cannot really say that these group differences over time are statistically significant and there is, inevitably, some error involved in your estimates. ;)
Theoretically true up to an extent... Though it would be rather Tru particularly by implementing the smallest particles in Turkish Arabic coffee using a pot on direct heat source..... Well appreciated...
Great stuff, thanks for this! Would you say that the temperature drop in immersion brewing (like cupping) also prevent it from overextracting? And that this also contributes to the lower extraction in the bigger grinds?
Seems to be very good and actionable information for Turkish coffee lovers. Instead of doing the traditional manoeuvre of waiting for the froth to come up three times, it seems that 20" infusion would be worth to try, and there is no need for decoction on boiling water. I am not into Turkish coffee, but that definitely stirs my curiosity about it. The few times I had Turkish coffee it was a bit too harsh and probably slightly burnt or overcooked, it seems that this video suggests Turkish coffee can be delicate and good without sugar if it is infused rather than cooked and if the infusion is very short, in the 20 or 30 seconds range.
thanks for the nice experiment. it seems to me that underlying assumptions are that a) whatever the water touched got extracted fully (or at least with in the first 15-30 seconds as the fine grind cup suggested), and b) the perceived yield, and by extension - flavor, was dependent only on the concentration of those fully extracted compounds in the water, since of the same amount of coffee grounds used, only the outer 100 um shell was participating the extraction. it’s probably overly simplistic, but what is missing here?
Does it matter the shape of the coffee gridns? I mean. It's possible that in 500 micron you can find different type of shape and ones are easier to extract than others? Thank you
How many grams of coffee did you have to go through to get your 5g sifted doses? I'm assuming you passed the larger grinds back through the EK again to be resifted?
I think It actually should be 500 particle and 250micron radius, becouse when sifting particles 250-500 microns there where also particles with 500microns diameter, and it was fully extracted. Am I thinking corectly?
5 лет назад
Matt, how would you connect these data with the data of Maxwell Colonna Dashwood and his theory of burning coffee in between burrs with finer grind? Finer grinds would be affected more with secondary "roasting" in the grinder and it would also affect the taste but would not show the difference from the only extraction point of view?
Hi! I’ve been wondering in the table of the numbers that indicate the depth of water into the grounds, how did you actually get those numbers? Still a bit confused about how you got the number “100 microns”.. thanks!
He assumes that 200micron particle can be extracted fully, so water is able to penetrate radius of this particle. I think It actually should be 500 particle and 250micron radius, becouse when sifting particles 250-500 microns there where also particles with 500microns diameter, and it was fully extracted.
Wouldn't this suggest that if you "underextract" a brew you have just a lower concentration of fully extracted coffee? Why would the flavor profile ever change to being overly acidic or overly bitter if you just always have varying concentrations of "full" extraction? Under what circumstances would you get "over extraction" if it isn't about contact time?
In the real world coffee isn't a uniform block of taste but a collection of various molecules, some of which will dissolve easier than others. Presumably the acidic stuff is just easier to extract so it comes out first.
@@nept123 My question would then be for a piece of coffee small enough that it gets fully saturated with water instantly, how long does it take for everything to get extracted. If time time is very fast then even if you have water penetrating deeper into the grounds over time each "shell" that gets extracted just adds immediately the full spectrum of flavors in. Until you fully penetrate you would have a bias towards the easier to extract molecules but that bias would only be large if it really takes a meaningful amount of time between which things are extracted for a fine particle.
So, it makes sense that for immersion anything between 0-500 is fine. What about drip? It looks that extraction in the 250-500 range peaks at around 230 secs. That is about 3.5 minutes. Is this evidence that a hybrid brewing method like the clever dripper might be the best option for a consistent extraction without the need to sieve? If anything below 500 microns reaches maximum extraction stops extracting at around 4 minutes, then I assume a a 3.5 minute immersion and 30-45 second draw in a clever dripper would give the best results? Or immerse in a french press and pour over a V60? My head hurts...
I have a Kruve and usually brew pourover (V60, Kalita Wave), drip (Bonavita 8 cup), and French Press. I have a Baratza Virtuoso grinder. What practical info can this experiment tell me on which coffee ground sizes I should brew with? Always brew with less than 500um particles for best extraction (as a baseline)? (assuming 14 to 17:1 ratio, and 200-205 deg. F H20)
Nave Bacon oh gotcha. I have already tried previously. It doesn’t drip through. My recommendation would be to try this with an aero press (assuming you could push it through) or a French press and then put it through a v60 filter. That’s what I’m going to try anyway:)
This and your other lecture that includes this data - no mention of volatiles. Coffee is ground, analysed, sorted. I don't know much about volatiles but they are never mentioned. As you are a light roast fan (seeking to retain more flavour than a dark roast) have you measured what volatile losses occur after burr grinding? Is it minutes, hours, weeks? What % of total matter, TDS, do volatiles comprise? In other words, is it worth going there to determine how much you have lost in strength? Or have you gone there and found it inconsequential. www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ALeKk03bhOqw2ZytWEadf_45emdi8NAsmQ%3A1597323134481&ei=fjc1X5L4HInl9QOql4a4Bw&q=chromatography+for+coffee&oq=chromatography+for+coffee&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB46BAgjECc6BQgAEJECOgIIADoHCAAQFBCHAjoICAAQFhAKEB5Q9B1YqzFg8DFoAHAAeACAAc8BiAHPD5IBBTAuOS4ymAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpesABAQ&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwiSr5awnJjrAhWJcn0KHaqLAXcQ4dUDCAs&uact=5
@@user-kd2ez2mb3c you are incorrect. they are solids that get through the filter and are represented in the yield. It's says right there on his speadsheet:
@@executive no no... just because they get through the filter, does not make them dissolved solids... many(or rather most) muddy brews in percolation brews are underextracted and astringent due to channeling, fines, or both. This is adapted from Scott Rao himself. Please read Jonathan Gagne's TDS x EY grid for reference... Some of these particles are able to pass through the filter especially on a too fine grind setting whilst percolating, or too much agitation with the slurry. If you don't believe me, go and try with a refractometer. Make your muddy pouroever with espresso grind size and tell me your TDS % and EY.
@UCrj-J5Nd8mjfKkKXq8M70Cg I honestly have no idea what you're rambling about. When I grind too fine it ends up muddy tasting. End of story. I don't need scientific papers.
Technically you're right but there is such a thing as extracting too much. I personally don't find overly bitter and astringent cups of coffee very enjoyable.
So once you reach the saturation point of 24.5% TDS you have ideal full extraction. He hinted at but I wasn't sure, what changes in some cases to cause the bitter taste. I don't mean overly strong or concentrated but a change in the flavor profile to hollow/bitter/astringent.
