Tyrone Jackson "and had the right car and the right tyres" well i mean, i dont think they bought their car while considering how slippery the hill would be in winter haha
I lived in Seattle for 13-years. Snow happened now and then, but no-one really understands how incredibly 'hilly' Seattle is. As a matter of fact, I didn't even realize it, until I moved there. If it snowed, I just walked to work. I was lucky. Now living in Central PA. I can tell you, there is nothing like the snow and ice out here. But, it's not that bad, you can dig yourself out and they keep the roads clear. What people here don't understand is that Seattle has HILLS. I was here when this happened, I walked to work from the CD to Downtown everyday, and if I was lucky, I could hop the bus home. You can laugh, but snow in the city is the worst. We lived on Denny Way, between Madison and 25th Ave. So if you parked your car there. Forget about moving it. You just had to march your butt up from Madison Valley until you could find a bus that wasn't trying to descend into downtown. Also, don't even THINK you can drive down John St.
@@greyk610 Yikes! I know. I have only been here for 5 years, and I have enjoyed the snowstorms here. This year, the winter seems to be really mild! I am just waiting for the other shoe to drop and Mother Nature to suddenly bombard us with a few feet of snow.
@@ThatGuy.75 Right!? Before moving there, I would visit my friend all the time, and never noticed how hilly Seattle is until we moved there. We lived on Denny Way, near 23rd Avenue, and boy was I shocked when it decided to snow our first year. I worked for Nordstrom and so many times I had to make the hike to downtown because the buses couldn't run. My Mother-in-law would laugh at me. But people don't realize how many darn hills there are there! It never used to snow as much in Seattle proper like it seems to do now. The many, many times I fell and had to crawl until I could get my footing. Lessons learned!
It's called people NEED there Starbucks every morning, lol, I live in Bellingham but I go to Seattle perty often, not to surprised because Seattle just never stops
apply some sand or dirt out of someones flower bed would eliminate lotta problems. People have no idea how unprepared they are. in winter, your first thoughts should be a shovel and warmth.
Yeah I drive one identical to it. Pulled a mustang up a hill wayyy worse than this on Ice and snow! They are all wheel drive, seems to work even better than 4 wheel drive.
Guys, except any jokes - the easiest way to save the control at this type of situation- NEVER hit the brakes! If you have manual drive switch it on the 1st gear or lower one, if automatic manually put in the lowest one or just stop the gas but NO BRAKES! It’s better to save control on the car but have a bit faster speeed than be a huge 1 ton of metal without any control. Trust me and just try this out when you face this situation.
@@JohnnyMarsden really??? I'm so sorry then! Nah, sure not. That's is a point of saving control - do not let wheels get blocked. If you riding in this type of circumstances your priority is to save car moving - because then you can avoiding obstacles and start to lead the way. If you block you wheels - car CONTINUE moving, but without any control.
You're right, control is everything, but you can tap the brakes slightly, just lift off immediately if the wheels start locking up. Also, when braking, keep the wheels dead straight.. so many people were standing on their brakes with steering lock on in this video that it hurt my brain. I guess nowadays most people are so used to ABS, ESP and TC that they actually have no idea about car control.
As in so many situations, the ambient sound is way preferable to loud guitars. Also, in places like Seattle, which does not get much weather like this, it's not just business as usual when it happens! Stay home or walk!
Nowadays it's so bad, "not being as loud as the latter half of this video" makes me happy. Too many idiots who use "background" guitar music 2-3x as loud as normal, or idiots with videos so quiet you have to turn them up to hear... who suddenly crank it up 3-5x as loud for their garish "Look how cool I am" guitar outro.
You know it's serious when the bus did almost 180 degree spin. It looks like there may have been a thin sheet of snow and then the temperatures dropped greatly maybe into the single digits. I had my car take off like a rocket going down a hill when there was a dusting of snow and the daytime high was 6. I put my car into a shoveled pile of snow and had to get pulled out. There was no damage to the car but where it happened was extremely terrifying.
I agree. Unfortunately there are only a small handful of states where they are legal. I think the reasoning is they cause too much damage to the road surface. I personally don't believe that. Roads get far more damaged from commercial trucks. Pretty confident that a 40,000-80,000 pound truck is going to do far more damage than a with studded tires could ever do.
@@tomrichards6207 studded tires throw up a lot of dust apparently which is why there's a few roads here in Stockholm where they're not allowed. what these people could use are some nice chains
4:05 Anyone remember those old buses that used to feature back windows? I remember staring out the back of those on all my bus rides as a child. And those old dark green seats had such good padding as well, and were larger too!! I think the new ones are still comfortable, but I miss those old ones.
I remember this and it really does happen every time it snows! I live south of Seattle and I know better than to try and drive on the hills of Seattle when it's like that!
I remember this day very well. It was the only time I can recall a Seattle weather forecast where they specified the low temperature as being "above zero."
This is a lot harder to do than some expert snow drivers in the comments may think. Seattle is hilly and when those streets ice not many could drive good on that. Imagine if San Francisco iced over it would be accident after accident.
Im an expert snow driver its called 4x4 truck that weighs 8k pounds then add another 4k pounds of weight in the bed of the truck then chain up all 4 tires and go anywhere you want with no issue. I live in seattle are btw.
I guess no one is thinking these drivers couldnt drive well in the icy hills, but that they shouldnt have attempted any of these icy hills to begin with. If your trip consists of just these hills, then park the car somewhere and try to find alternative method to get to your destination.
Seattle has some of the wettest snow in the country, thus it freezing overnight into a skating rink. It's not that bone-dry powder you get everywhere else.
People watching this video don't understand Seattle topography or Northwest weather for all that matter. All they see on tv is that it rains here. They must not know when it rains, and the temps fall under 32 degrees, you get ice. Also, the hills we drive on, they call mountains in Kansas and the Midwest. Some may NOT know or understand that in Portland, they get freezing rain quite often....that's when it rains, it freezes IMEDDIATELY if not frozen when it hits. You should not insult what you don't understand. And yes, we are nice people and help each other. Try it sometimes.
Yeah.... UH try me AGAIN after experiencing Chicago snow. We always hover between 25-40°F in winter with around 60ish percent humidity which makes for SUPER heavy, ultra icy, shitty snow. I'm sure all the Minnesotans will come out of the woodwork screaming about how dry cold is worse and how they are 20°F colder cause they're like 300 mirls further north.... to be honest I'd rather have dry winter as opposed to 60mph winds, lake effect snow, and gulf humidity making the cold FEEL COLDER than it actually is, so badly that it feels colder than it actually IS in Minneapolis for fucks sake. I will not however, complain about spring / summer / falls here, or the relatively short duration of the truly shitty parts of winter. I love my state, and my city of Chicago.
Man, people need to learn how to relax that right foot off the brake, enjoy their ride into the spin, then drop the fucking hammer when you're coming around. It's so easy to do. But no.. we gotta break traction by locking the tires, then keep the traction broken by holding the brake through the floor. There should be more classes/training on these types of situations before you can even get your license. Because for some reason, everybody ALWAYS panics and locks 'em up.
I've NEVER used snow tires. Just all terrain mud/rain/dry tires, and never once have caused an accident in snow. It's a matter of skill, preparation, and how you react to your circumstances at that point. You could have studded ice tires, and you're still gonna go God only knows where if you lock the brakes up, and don't allow traction to be regained. Which is why I said there needs to be more classes/training for this before you can get your license. It's seeming year after year, there's more of a snow season in areas snow should not be there.
this is Seattle we talking about right? they get no snow for years at a time. so. they dont need tires like that for every day driving. nor do they need those skills often. so i cant blame them. even a skilled bus driver has trouble.
Chris Wilson I've been driving professionally and never had a issue for 35 years. This last winter I took a Seattle hill turn during a bad storm and did 3 360s down the hill magically missed all cars and slid into a ditch with no damage other then undercarriage scraps. So remember no one can do it by accident, accident are unintentional. So I did it by accident is a flawed phrase with legal loophole affiliations.
fayth78a1 actually we get snow often around Nov thru Jan Feb even March april. But typically not thick or doesn't stick well lots of slushy. But last 4 years have been harder and worse then the 30 before.
Misha Mean lol, i don’t order if the weather is horrible, feel sorry for them...yep I know that’s their living but not in very wet and windy weather or snow...they often are immigrants from hot climates where I am and have only a helmet, no leathers or any decent protection 😐
I have a friend that has a great 3rd floor apt. on Queen Anne. Which is even steeper than this, which looks like Capitol Hill. Every year... endless entertainment. Half an inch of snow that melts a bit then freezes is WAY worse than a foot of snow that does the same.
In Finland, this is everyday weather in winter time.same in Sweden, Norway, Russia..etc.and of course Canada😊 old Saab with good winter tires beats all those awds..
A big part of why it is so hard to drive in the snow in Seattle is there is 0 effort to clear the roads. They snow stays on the road until it is compacted into ice. Sometimes you get lucky and the snow melts in a day or two but other times the road is an ice sheet for a week or two. I remember during the last big snowstorm the city was bragging that they had actually plowed one of the freeways and I thought to myself a clear freeway doesn't do me any good when I can't get down my street. I find driving on a mountain hiway a lot easier because they salt/sand and plow the road.
@@SimonWoodburyForget I don't think you understand, on a sheet of ice chains don't work. I've seen busses with chains on sliding down the street. The only to keep a road from turning into an ice sheet is to salt/sand/plow it. On the mountain roads you rarely get an ice sheet because they salt/sand/plow the road before the snow builds up too much. People don't drive in snow alot often underestimate the black ice risk.
@@SimonWoodburyForget Okay then if you really belive chains work in any conditions then please drive you're chained up car down one of the hilly Seattle streets during a blizzard and see what happens. I will be laughing when I see you're dented car against the light pole. Many Seattle drivers have to learn the hard way you wouldn't be the only one.
Why can I only see 1 of the 3 replies? RU-vid must be doing alot of censorship as usual. I kind of understand why RU-vid might censor a political comment although its a shame you can't have a real political discussion on RU-vid but censoring comments about something like this COME ON!!!.
There are types of road salt that lower the freezing point of water enough that the road will remain wet in melt in the day freeze at night weather, the road only freezes during the worst cold snaps and using this type of salt tends to keep the cascade mtn passes wet or slushy.
It’s a hot (July 2020) Summer day in Seattle (with no air conditioning) and I felt nostalgia for a ‘driving-in-Seattle-in-the-snow’ video. - Thank you for this video; very well done (and with a good soundtrack)! : )
I live in a sunny state, and don't know the first thing about snow driving. That would definitely be me, except with more screaming and pants crapping.
Dude, people here can't drive in the RAIN! And that is all it does! No headlights, drive fast, blah blah blah. Of course, in Seattle, the hip thing to do is wear black, walk on streets with no streetlights, and cross in front of moving traffic mid-block and blame the driver for not seeing you.
0:37 you can see how his reverse lights blip on for a second, that indicates he was not in drive. Most likely in park. That would have to be the worst decision because now he has no ability to move if he needs to. I understand he can shift out at the bottom, but you could kinda steer the car with acceleration to avoid a bad collision.
In a twisted / amusing sort of way, I kinda love how the filmer isn't shrieking or going nuts lol. She probably sees the exact same thing happening every single Snow Season! :D
Very smart idea, in a place that actually HAS sanders and snow plows available. The City of Seattle has 471 centerline-miles of arterial streets and 1220 centerline-miles of residential streets. Less than 20 plows/sanders on this snow event. We had no measurable snow this year. 911 is for life threatening situations, not for ice on the roads.
When will people learn you don't just slam on the breaks especially on snow and ice. Put your car into a lower gear (yes it can be done with automatics too).
Thank you. Someone here finally gets it. I've been telling people about lower gear on snow and ice and they keep saying its winter tires you need. Its not always about the tires but how much traction you can get our of your vehicle that's what it counts on. Especially if you have 4X4 have it on LOW 4X4 with 1st or 2nd gear on.
hhds113 Um, no. 4 Wheel DRIVE does NOT mean 4 Wheel STOP. That’s why people say get Winter Tires. I have a front wheel drive Lincoln MKS and I live in Fairbanks Alaska. With my FWD and winter tires, I’ve been able to safely pass 4X4 SUVs on hills without them. I could have easily passed the Acura MDX at the start of this video. I also live in a place where our roads are always like this, which is one reason we GET WINTER TIRES. Because on this hill I would’ve been likely able to stop, obviously with some skidding, but I would’ve been able to avoid a collision and stop on the hill. Next, the other big mistake people are making here is hitting the brakes, yes, but not when you guys are complaining about. When going down a hill like that, if you’re already sliding, just shifting down won’t help much. The momentum is already forcing you downward. Obviously start at the top of the hill and shift down and slow down though. However once you’re in that slide, you may as well hit the brakes. Cars today have ABS, which allows for micro braking, essentially when you hit the brakes, it acts like a very quick brake pump and it keeps the wheels from locking up. That’s why on older cars you pump the brakes, but on newer cars you can hit the brakes. The biggest issue I’m seeing here is when they have started to slide sideways, that’s when these people hit their brakes. The issue with that is when you’re sliding sideways, the worst thing you CAN do is to hit your brakes because it forces the momentum of the rear into the spin and will turn your car around and you’ll be sliding backwards. That’s the biggest issue you see on highways. When people start to fishtail - whether it’s hydroplaning or ice skidding - they hit their brakes which is what then causes the loss of control and the spin. If you take your foot off any pedal, your car will naturally slow itself down without enough momentum shift to cause your backend up lose all grip. The exception to that is really only with RWD, where it SOMETIMES (rarely; but sometimes) can be a good option to hit the gas for a second if your car has gone too far outward in a fishtail as it can help bring the car back the other direction. People tend to hit the brake then because they assume it’s too late anyways, which I guess is understandable as it won’t ALWAYS work to hit the gas in that moment, but it can. When doing a J-Turn like in action movies, at the last minute they let their foot off the gas, throw the wheel into a spin and pull the handbrakes. They do this because it shifts the momentum and lets the car spin as I said above. This advice comes from experience as an Alaskan with family from Norway. My advice has saved my life and other people as well, largely by preventing any accident, which largely comes down to my tires. I understand in Seattle there’s really no need for the Winter Tires, but All Seasons are not good in snow or ice. Just because they are snow rated, that doesn’t mean they should be used in it. That’s the biggest misconception about All Seasons (the tire on EVERY CAR IN AMERICA unless you swap for Winter Tires). All Seasons have to be able to tolerate about an inch of snow, but the compound isn’t soft enough for ice or snow. That’s why anytime it snows in Colorado, you see RU-vid videos of accidents spamming the internet. They have this misconception that “All Seasons” ARE snow tires when they’re not, they’re the tires we switch from TO Winter Tires. Back to my point though: in Seattle there’s really no need for Winter Tires because the weather never calls for it (unlike in Colorado, my reference above is from spending a lot of time there as an older teen and driving), but because of that, most of these people should be off the roads. Ice in Seattle is the same as rain in LA. LA freaks out in rain because it doesn’t rain enough, so all the oil on the roads lifts in rain and becomes a sheet. Ice in Seattle doesn’t happen much, but when it does, it creates a massive sheet. A thin one, but one nonetheless. So people should be prepared, learn how to drive on ice (read above) and stay off the roads.
scanjett generally yeah, but chains or no chain. It's still hard in a city made with hills and bike lanes.Given that we are also the 4th worst city in terms of traffic. It doesn't really matter when everyone is going 5mph.
I'm from Vancouver Island which is just across the Georgia Straight from Seattle and during the winter months, it is required for us Canadians to have winter tires or a set of tires with a snow/ice rating. Now with that said, it is the department of transportation's responsibility to either keep local roads such as these hills open and safe for travel OR to close it off due to unsafe conditions.
@@CarminesRCTipsandTricks Seattle DOT uses sand and a chemical de-icer; the problem is that the hills are incredibly steep (John Street, shown here, is a bit steeper than it looks), the snow tends to fall in thin layers one at a time over several days rather than all at once, so the sand gets layered between snowpack and ice rather than staying on top. Also there are not enough snowplows in the city to clear things up fast enough. Oh, and oftentimes it snows and then rains just enough to turn the snow into slush before it freezes and snows again, which adds to the "slippy-slippy layercake of freezy-water" effect. No one is moving quickly to do anything about it, because of *The Seattle Process* and also the lack of priority assigned to something that is only a problem at most for two weeks out of any given winter. It doesn't snow enough to invest a lot of energy into sorting out snow removal; but it does snow enough to essentially give everyone who lives or works on or near a hill about a de facto weeklong vacation every winter.
@@duncanadelaide4054 I can appreciate the infrequency of such an event there... I grew up in New York and later lived in Chicago. Two Cities WELL equipped for Snowfall. Realistically, if this is such an infrequent event, perhaps these People should STAY Home when it happens, saving limited City Resources! Or at least close Streets like that one.
@@CarminesRCTipsandTricks A lot of streets do get closed, the problem is that Seattle is *extremely* hilly. That part of John Street isn't steep at all compared to the streets connecting that neighborhood to Downtown. If you were to close off all the streets as steep as John Street or steeper, the entire city would be closed; Capitol Hill would be an island, as would Beacon Hill, virtually cutting off the eastern half of the city from the western half, and the Queen Anne neighborhood wouldn't have a single north-south street left open. Most people do stay home as much as possible when that happens; the street in the video is usually a *lot* busier than that.
No but marketing tells people their Subaru, Toyota, Honda w/ AWD is a winter tank and people don't even learn that going downhill in AWD is no different than the 2WD version of the vehicle with the same tires. People simply do not understand when their AWD benefits them and when it does not. I do enjoy the AWD vehicles I have owned but I had no issue selling my Outback for a family FWD van with the same Blizzaks mounted on it. Driving up to the mountains and through snowy parking lots at ski resorts with a snow tire equipped FWD vehicle worked just fine. Even prefer it over AWD All Season tire equipped vehicles in most all paved road driving. Remember my family member offering to drive one snowy day in their All Season Honda AWD CRV and I said no thanks. I took my Toyota Sienna w/ Blizzaks WS70 to his surprise. I would rather have descent acceleration and improved braking of the FWD snow tire equipped vehicle vs the descent acceleration and poor braking of a AWD with stock all seasons.
That's exactly what I was thinking. I had to mute the video just watch it. I would rather watch the video without music anyway. The unfortunate sound of the cars crashing is sufficient enough.
l think it comes under Stupid people do , lol . l remember may years ago when l was 19 went to work on 250 Suzuki 10 minutes tops took me 1 hour l rode very carefully was buggered when l got there .
1. Seattle doesn't get much of this kind of condition. 2. There are a lot of Subaru Foresters in Seattle and their owners think they can handle anything.
It would have been funny to see the fire truck crash into the police car. That would make a hilarious accident report the city would NOT like: "City truck crashes into city car".
get salt and put down, get salt and plow trucks, learn from Chicago and Minneapolis and Indianapolis and St Louis, we never have that problem here in the windy city, have garbage trucks fitted with big plows ready for plowing thru the alleys and streets, have the streets salted before the snow gets worse, have plow and salt trucks assigned to downtown first and the hilly areas too then when those streets are salted, do the rest of the main streets
It snows so seldom that the city does not have enough equipment. We've not had a major snow/ice event in 3 years. They errantly put down a "brine" and the weather forecast changed and it turned to ice. They now do use salt, but Seattle has a great snow plan: Stay Home! With 500' steep hills like this, it's the best way to go. www.google.com/maps/@47.6199412,-122.3156769,3a,75y,99.29h,70.63t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1syanu5YE4DXhq6NbgBcTX_Q!2e0
I live on the WA coast, and it snows less here than Seattle, even (salt air?), to the point our towns SOLD their damn snow plows. So, what happened the next winter? Yup, epic snow, and no way to remove it, and very pissed off citizens.
Every time there is snow in the Seattle forecast, i come back and watch this to remind myself that this is the only good thing about snow in Seattle. I love the bus. And your comments. Thanks so much for making this video. I'm your biggest fan lol.
I moved to Seattle (actually Kent) from Los Angeles in 1974 and that winter 13 inches of snow fell one night. Next morning I was second one to get to work in my '56 Buick with chains on, after a 4-wheel drive pickup. Only five made it to work that day. Otherwise, the whole place was brought more or less to a standstill. Much has to do with attitude and willingness to have a minimum of equipment (such as tire chains) available. It wouldn't have hurt for the people on that street to each have a sack of traction sand in addition to their cameras. Government isn't going to save your a** from the rare event. The only snow removal effort I saw was one motor grader on Central Avenue.
True. And studded tires are a menace. nothing chews up the roads faster except the busses and trucks. If it snows here in Seattle you are probably just going to need chains anyway.
I live on Denny Way, near 25th Ave. Every time it snows I just stand at the window and watch people try to climb that steep hill. They do pretty good, until they decide to stop. Usually they are half way up when they do. Then, down they come. No one really associates hilly streets with Seattle.
I remember watching this on the news when it happened, and it happens each time those hills ice up. There are some VERY steep streets coming out of the waterfront area going up hill to the streets that parallel the coast line. It's like San Francisco steep in some spots, this video doesn't do that justice.
Lol at the non Seattlites who are making comments. That year was the only snow we had. Often, there is only one snow to cause this kind of mayhem per year. It hasn't snowed more than a slushy inch in 3 years at least. It's a waste to buy chains or snow tires, and exceptionally destructive to the roads in the case of snow tires. The Seattle area is also extremely hilly, everywhere in the surrounding area. You can't get anywhere without encountering a hill this grade or steeper.
North Seattle we were hammered way more the once. And I have a house in Edmonds another in lake Stevens. Terri let snow for over 20 days last year 2013|14
We just had our second warmest October on record, with last year being the warmest October. Hopefully this winter is better than last, in the mountains at least. But it's still projected to be warm yet again. We may start to feel like California eventually the way things are headed. :(
Same thing here in Minnesota. We used to yawn at a 6" snowfall and now that's blown up to natural disaster proportions because it's so rare when we get a good snowstorm now.
Douglas Skaalrud Which Minnesota city do you live in? I'll honestly be somewhat happy if we get even a trace of snow this winter. Hoping for maybe at least an inch in the winter. :( You guys still get a few inches of snow a winter right? And of course it's still really cold no matter how warm your winter is. It got down to 25 degrees Monday morning at the airport and may very well be the coldest we get this winter. I think it was in the low 20s while it was snowing in this video (at the airport at least).
+Reckno64 I'm just outside Minneapolis. Our weather in town is moderated by the "heat island effect" which appears to force bad weather around the Twin Cities metro area. We had a really good growing season this summer; moderately wet with a dry fall but once again winter is off to a really slow start and right now the chance of any measurable snow looks slim. If we're going to have any shot at deep snow it needs to start in early November and stay cold and that just doesn't happen like it used to. A big snowstorm tends to bring out the best in people here which is why I like to see a big one.
It easy to sit behind a keyboard and tell drivers how to do this and that. Because of the intersection at the bottom of the hill there may not be enough room to "calmly" pump your brakes. Especially going down hill. I guess the snow cough the diligent road crews by surprise.
With modern ABS pumping your brakes is utterly pointless. The computer can individually activate each brake to maintain traction better than a human ever could.
Not true. All ABS does is release and apply brakes to keep the wheel turning. As soon as it senses the tire stop rotating it lets the brake on that wheel go until it starts spinning again. "Pumping" the brakes worked before ABS was standard. ABS "Pumps" your brakes with more accuracy and speed than a human could ever hope to achieve, and it does it one every wheel individually. If you doubt me find a vacant lot and do it for yourself. Seriously, its actually kind of fun to see if you can "beat" the ABS, but unless you are cheating somehow, you never will.
I have tried, it's winter here right now. but when all wheels stop spinning at the same time, abs reads it as vehicle has stopped and wont release the brakes (happens when it's really slippery/bad tires) which means you have to do the pumping yourself. When abs works it's really good system and usually it's enough, but dont forget it's not 100% sure it works.
I used to live in Washington and Winters were rough, thank God my dad knows how to drive in snow/ice so I've never been in a crash and or slid of any sort.
the music off in the backround for 3 minutes BUT THEN the music gets loud when the bus is introduced. u just know something is about to happen! great video with matching music
Lemon Fresh Snow is very rare here because the winter temperatures usually stay too warm for it. And when the temperature does drop enough, it's usually too dry. Those mild temps are also the reason it's so difficult to drive in the snow here (combined with all the steep hills and rivers, of course): it'll snow at night, melt during the day, freeze in the evening, then keep rinse-repeating for several days. The result is what we call "Seattle Cement" thick layers of disgusting compacted ice and snow, all covering a lovely blanket of clear invisible ice. I know it's not just us, too, because I've spoken to Canadian and Swedish visitors who admitted they couldn't drive in it either, and they've have years of practice in much worse weather.
marchlander1 Most people here don't have chains to begin with. For pretty much the same reason most of us don't have air conditioners: the weather is usually too mild for snow or oppressively hot weather, so most stores don't even bother selling them. IIRC, this was also the year the mayor kept refusing to put salt on the roads or hire extra snow plows, which made it all worse.
I have always said, keep generic, non-clumping cat litter in your vehicle. Extra weight is always good for winter traction, and it can get you out of a no grip winter situation.
