Smash Bros. DESIGN Tier List: Smash 64 Newcomers 

It's funny, Samus and Donkey Kong have compromised movesets, but their playstyle is actually surprisingly accuarate to the kind of stuff you could expect from them. Luigi in the other hand is the opposite, he has the correct moves, but he feels so strangely powerful in the less Luigi way possible.

Oh YES, I've been hoping more people would do things like this, its so much more enjoyable to discuss than balance. And with the same amount and coloration of tiers, this is PERFECT for comparison! Could throw my thoughts out on a few things, but I'll wait to see how the whole Tier List shakes up first, I'm fascinated to see how future games are going to compare! ...though I do find a bit odd logic-wise to knock Luigi down so far citing toxicity as a major factor, only for Ness to follow at the list's summit. Don't get me wrong, disregarding personal tastes as to what I'd want Ness to be, his smash design is one of the most creative on the roster, I can understand the placement in a vacuum. But it's also one of the most hated by players, to a point that matches Luigi's and arguably surpasses him at various levels of play. Don't get me wrong, I still respect the S placement, even it personally feels blasphemous to put him above Falcon. I just felt quite a bit of whiplash from the criteria shifting there.

I think Luigi should move up to D tier, yes I think his moveset needs updating, but F tier seems a bit harsh

Considering fox's design is to platform fighters what ryus is to fighting games as a whole, I feel he was severely underrated here

I dislike the "every input need to be direct reference" mindset. I'm not saying that they should just pull all of a character's moves out of thin air, but it's more important to me that a character fights in a believable way that makes sense for them and their personality. Mario throwing a few generic punches and kicks while jumping around in a brawl is something I think he'd actually do. Randomly spawning tons of props out of thin air regardless of the actual practicality feels LESS in-character to me. I'm okay with updating old characters to include new material and give them more accurate/up-to-date portrayals, but man, so many fan concepts just completely demolish all of a character's intended playstyle and disregard anything but the number of references they can cram in.

I'd appreciate it if you do more tier list videos like these for future Smash games.

One thing about Captain Falcon is that he does have some F-Zero in him but it's only a minor thing. F-Zero is a series about going extremely fast so Captain Falcon having an incredibly fast Dash Speed makes sense. Raptor Boost, added in Melee, also works in a way in how you are often boosting in F-Zero games with Boost Power to help you overtake your opponents. But those are kind of a stretch and yeah the kit is mostly original, especially with giving him a Rider Kick.

While I do agree with most of this, I disagree on Luigi. He'd definitely be near the middle of the tiers rather than anywhere close to the bottom. To me, his goofy & under confident nature does come off in a lot of his attacks. And while a lot of moves were made up for Luigi, I'd never say any of them go against his character. This & Luigi's Mansion are what DEFINED his personality for every appearance after: a character who's on par with or even better than his brother at certain tasks, but his scaredy cat nature & lack of confidence hold him back. To me this makes his moveset a perfect fit. It's less effective than Mario in some areas, but other areas he shines. Plus he doesn't have the no updates to his moveset problem a lot of the 64 cast has. They didn't need to change his grab in Ultimate but it made him feel even more like Luigi.

The issue of having a good starting point reminds me of how Street Fighter went about the situation in SF6. Because Luke became the new entry point character, Ryu was allowed to become more interesting from mechanical standpoint. With that said, I’d argue that Mario isn’t really a great starting point. Though within the confines of the rushdown slant, he could get rid of FLUDD since it doesn’t really gel with said play-style.

Love the video definitely looking forward to the future of this. Only alittle bothered by the luigi judgement sure his play style and what wins games might be "toxic" but the animations and personality luigi has is there. His the underdog younger sibling that is in the shadow of mr videogame himself, the second banana to a serious gogetter which is why his personality being the loving bro that watches a garden or is spooked by a light breeze that makes the floor boards creek would pertain to an awkward fighter that has tons of unorthodox moves like the first taunt to do damage in the smash series.

Excited to see how everyone shakes out over Delzethin's videos compared to the Design Dorks Smash Design Tierlist

Based on this, we should see “Remake It” episodes on Kirby, Luigi, and Jigglypuff. Maybe Pikachu as well, but that would be a pretty short video.

(16:10) It is said that "dragon king" (竜王) is a literal translation of the city name Sakurai is from / worked from. Imagine a developer from Stockholm making a game called "Stockholm - krigsspelet" and it being translated as "Log Islet: The War Game", that would be ridiculous.

Oh boi it's the "who's possibly up next for the redesigning series" tier list.

Captain Falcon I think should have been A tier. Almost none of his movesets are pulled from his game, but Smash has made him so damn iconic that it honestly feels natural for him to have all this. It's become part of his identity as a character that a lot of people including myself have enjoyed. He's like a steak dinner with a side of broccoli. That one steak is so simple but it carries the entire meal.

For Jigglypuff, I'd recommend Disarming Voice. It's a Fairy-type, sound-based move. Solving both of these source material updates in one go.

Honestly, it's really funny how the most unknown character of the Original 12 is also the best designed, since Ness' moveset best represents his series

Eh I still think Link could use some minor tweaks. Particularly the Up Special. Yeah the Spin Attack is iconic, but all 3 of the Links have the same move with very few differences. You could absolutely move it to Down Smash and replace the Up Special with Revali’s Gale. There’s another character I also want to mention being Kirby, but it seems you already have some ideas for him. So, I’ll save my thoughts too.

While I agree with the tier list, I still think that most of these characters (except Ness, outside of maybe some aesthetic changes) still should have significant changes in moveset. And while I get being worried of completely changing their playstyle, I feel like unless people outright give them the craziest stuff, wouldn't change their playstyle too much. Would argue some character SHOULD have a change in their playstyle, such as Ganondorf and Sonic imo Among the list, Mario personally I wish had way more references to his power-ups, which I don't think is crazy. Unless people's first thought of that is having Mario summon power-ups as a Special, which is absurd, then I don't think it should be that wild. I feel that a good few of Mario's moves are fine like say his Jab, D-Tilt, Throws, Super Jump Punch and Fireball among others, but some I wish could be different. Cappy being his Side B and serving as both a long range "projectile" that can also bounce projectiles. Aerials maybe being his Galaxy Spin or Tanooki Tail as his Neutral and Back Airs that are more interesting visually, but not too wild. Others like Link and Fox are fine. I think Fox is fine with Falco and Wolf needing changes. As for Link, as every Smash game changes Link incarnations, I think they should either stick to one and base a moveset from that specifically, or tweak his current kit a bit. Samus, DK and Luigi outright needs overhauls yeah, and idc about their current playstyles they need to change since Samus and DK feel somewhat clunky, while Luigi just isn't the same green plumber you see in the Mario series

It's awesome seeing more people talking about the designs of Smash characters; can't wait to see you make a video on all the other characters!. Also this reminds me of the videos Duke of Dorks and Desing For made talking about each smash characters desing. I highly recommend those videos because they made me think differently of some characters like Jigglypuff and Snake.

One of my biggest pet peeves in a fan moveset is when every single move is a reference or a special mechanic for no reason. Not every character needs to be Mega Man. Punches and kicks are okay. With that said, Kirby absolutely IS one of those character that should be like Mega Man in my opinion, for the same reason as Mega Man. The core of his character IS the deep pool of powers he can draw from. I don't think that would even compromise his pick up and play style. Also, I don't want huge updates to Mario but Luma Spin on d-air would be nice~

This is a really good tier list idea. Looking forward for the melee newcomers

I like the concept, but I don't feel like the execution was done particularly well, especially the lead-up to the final note. While some like Luigi and Mario had some good lead-up to theirs, a good number felt like their rank was kind of arbitrary. The best example was Samus where I feel like it had a good argument to have a decent note (being in an unique position between zoners, being half-zoner half-brawler) yet it ended in E just because it could use a few references.. while Mario had an A with an argument being that he shouldn't be a compilation of references, so it feels a bit off... I feel like each part is too focused on presenting the overall character (which is definitely important, don't get me wrong) instead of telling your thoughts about it, they definitely were put on the backseat compared to presenting the characters or your ideas for a possible revamp which I feel like is a huge shame for that concept and kind of undermines the whole idea. I like what you do and this is definitely a cool idea but I definitely feel like the lead-up to each note could use some work, make it longer if need be, but less focus on references and more on what each fighter brings to the table, maybe more on the synergy of the whole moveset as well? Anyway, looking forward to it, best of luck!!

One thing I think you could have mentioned is that Mario in a way is designed to be the typical Ryu of smash . He got the uppercut, he got fireball, he got a spinning move

Big disagree on Pikachu. Sure, there is definitely new source material they could pull from, but like Mario, his core design is so fitting for his character and doesn't necessarily need the new, latest innovations in the series. He certainly has enough moves to cover his Electric type, and his playstyle fits him so well: a speedy character with electrical power not to be underestimated, but frail (low defense stats in the games). You have to rely on the character's speed, with moves like quick attack, while still making good use of his electric-based projectile in thunder jolt. I would give him A at least. Other than that, I'm loving this tier list. Can't wait to see part 2!

This was very fun!! Would love to see this same concept for Melee and Brawl characters (Sonic's analysis should be fun ahahah)

I think Luigi's Mansion is popular enough at this point that Luigi's moveset should be entirely based on it. Especially if Smash does a reboot and they need ways to justify its existence next to Ultimate.

This is a really cool idea for a series, I agree with you that people should talk about stuff like this more.

9:27 Yes please, I've been waiting for Kirby to get a Remake It! ever since you started making them.

DK might not have the most interesting moveset, but he is by FAR the most fun character in the game once you have good fundies. His animations, his goofy ass moves and funny spikes all make him so fun to play

I would prefer Jigglypuff in B or A rather than where you placed them at, even if its due to representation. Her moveset is not only iconic, but it establishes them as an aerial based fighter who focuses on bait-n--punish trades as they constantly go around their opponents toes, either walling them with aerials or finding a good read. It plays around the aerial mechanics Smash presents in a heavily movement based fighter, and establishes a rather unique playstyle that generally works. Although balancing wise, they have been under the rader past melee.

Delzethin: Luigi has touch of deaths, so he’s the worst designed character from Smash 64. Also Delzethin: Ness’s moveset has aged perfectly!

If this was like a year ago, I would've disagreed with Kirby. But now that I've thought it over, I was really wrong on how I wanted him to be. He's supposed to be simple, giving him a Mega Man style rework would probably make him a bit like Mega Man where he's more complicated (honestly, I feel cases like Mega Man of being a reference machine, while cool and appropriate, has done a lot more harm than good when it comes to moveset speculation and reworks). All of of his moves while generic have a purpose and give a basic idea of the different directions of moves. Plus it's not like his moveset is without abilities. He has a whole 7 represented in his kit and has a move that copies the Neutral Special of anyone he ate. I'd say all things considered that's a good comprimise personally and to top it off, it's a moveset I like since I main the character. A few small things though. 1. No, most of Kirby's Normals do not take from Fighter. Only Jab and F-Smash take from the ability and even then F-Smash takes a move Fighter only used in Super Star and the remake. Anything else that isn't a throw or a Special is made up. 2. Kirby not having his slide kick feels weird. It's been with him for so long and no ability is required to use it. A simple D-Tilt change I feel would be fine. 3. I think Hi-Jump should be Kirby's Up Special. Now let's get the elephant in the room out of the way. No this would not make Kirby broken even though he has so many jumps. Look at (current) Meta Knight with Shuttle Loop. He's a perfectly average character. Now the reason I want this is due to Final Cutter not only showing off the least used move of the Cutter ability but also not a very accurate showcase of Final Cutter or what an Up Special should primarily do. I think Kirby having Hi-Jump (working about the same as it does in the Kirby games) would be good for the character design wise while making him no where even near broken.

Yes please, I love these types of tier lists. Discussion about character design and/or representation is always something I love hearing.

Had a feeling the Tier List video would end up something like this. Can't say I'm not interested, though. I do hope you do a Remake It on Kirby. I agree that not every move in his kit needs a super obvious reference, though I think the smash attacks would be a good place for more Copy Abilities. I do think his moveset just needs a more interesting touch-up, though. I think his tilts and aerials need a little more spice so he isn't just kicking the opponent for 90% of every match, and he could use certainly more effective Up, Side, and Down specials. I'm of the opinion the Iron Tail should be Pikachu's side special, as sort of a Tatsu kind of attack, with a second strike that's able to angled up or down. It's a pretty notable attack for Pikachu, considering he has it even in the Pokepark games, so I think they should have it on an important slot. As for the overall tier list so far, I'd say I agree with most of it, but I would definitely put Captain Falcon higher if I had to change anything.

This was a super fun video to watch. Definitely would love to see you do this with every smash game. As far as my personal opinion goes, I pretty much agree with everything said, but I personally would rank Fox a bit higher as I feel his high speed, high gravity, and precision based gameplay do a decent job and capture the feeling of Star Fox in fighter form. Luigi definitely needs a big overhaul. He just feels like "weird Mario" in smash and not the loveable coward everybody enjoys rooting for

the anime, the card games and the video games retroactively influence one another so there is nothing wrong with pulling from those sources, heck many tcg moves make it to the games over time

Actually Yoshi’s Egg Roll is based off a move in Yoshi’s Story. Other than that, great video!

This series is interesting and I'm excited to see where it goes But I'd recommend future installments being judged on how accurate they were based on what was out at the time, rather than by modern day iterations.

Not every character has to be exactly like how they play in their games. Characters like Min Min, Steve, and Kazuya are examples of what happens if you make characters play exactly like their game in Smash.

I wish they would make the Mii's the intro, base design, and customizabls characters all at once. It would make their presence meaningful--particularly for newcomers--and allow the other characters to be unique, fun, and faithful all at once! (Please, let my Samus play like the epic hero she always has been...) I think an interesting change for Mario could be utilizing more of his power ups. Imagine if his current up-B was attached to his up-smash, or even normal jumps? I'm a sucker for characters adding personality to normal elements (Terry's spot-dodge attack, SF parry sound, etc). I think the propeller hat would be an iconic and easy-to-put in recovery move, and putting Cappy on side-b has SO much potential.

To Delz and fans, really detailed and funny discussions are had about Smash Bros character design on The Duke of Dorks' channel.

18:10 About joke characters fighting with cheese, or rather, being unexpectedly powerful...I think that might actually be a trope. Think about the fan or Mr. Saturn, usually weak, gag-like items, that can unexpectedly break your shield! Guess that's just a thing

100% agree! I wanna see what you have to say about the Melee fighters. That's when design choices started to 'feel wrong'.

Love this - would love to see some of the lower-tier characters in the remake it! Series.

I think that kirby is designed to be beginner friendly, think about all that needs to be changed is the hammer flip to maybe ice or yoyo

jigglypuff is perfectly represented, she already has sing and thats the only sound move that actually represents her well, the only thing i would change is the final smash maybe she should draw in everyone's faces like in the anime

You were WAY too harsh on Luigi simply for having touch of deaths. Every character in Smash has some jank to them, and singling Luigi out makes me feel like it’s more about how much you like fighting against that character online rather than their moveset design.

I agree with most of the stuff here, though i feel like Link could've gotten a few more changes... there's a Rivals of Aether workshop BoTW Link character which is essentially perfect at representing BoTW while still feeling like Smash Link in some Way (He uses spears for his forward and up strong, spin attack is down strong and up special is his glider from botw instead... there's other changes too but it's quite a bit so i won't list them here). He's more of a rushdown swordie there though so perhaps mixing some ideas from that moveset with the original smash link could be a good call, who knows. Very good video though, i can't wait to see more!

1:56 is the reason why Mario was a top 5 character on Melee's Very First Competitive Tier List

Kirby i feel deserves the moveset rehaul the most. Kirby in his games is supposed to be simple and powerful, and a lot of the feel of his slower movement is to disorient newer players less when playing. As faithful as the feel of his moveset is now, a lot of the moves therein feel neutered to not be inherently broken, or just work so situationally that they really never get used. Stone, Final Cutter, Hammer Flip, and even his grabs all feel weak, as if the point is to copy ability the opponent for something powerful, like all characters have powerful neutral specials. I hope if they do make a new Kirby moveset, they start from the ground up and give it variety AND power.

I'm looking forward to the future of this series, seems really fun! But... I do have to disagree with Samus's placement I'd say B, C or at least D over the E rank she has right now.

Well, I can't say I was expecting a Smash Top Tier List to be your first video of 2023, Delzethin, but I'm not complaining! XD This has definitely been an interesting, and fun take on the usual Smash Tier List video! I enjoyed hearing your thoughts, and opinions on the original dozen Smash 64 fighters, and how well/not so well they've held up almost a quarter-century later (god, I'm OLD)! I was actually surprised that every Rank got at least 1 fighter. I kinda disagree with you on Mario, and Link though as while I understand that we don't wanna alternate their movesets too much as to not alienate any of their current players especially with the former since he's meant to serve as the tutorial guide for newcomers, however, I don't think adding a FEW touchups would hurt like maybe replacing Mario's Cape with Tail Mario since it hasn't been in a mainline Mario game in a very long time (not counting the Maker series), but would still have the same reflect ability like with the Cape, besides Tail Mario is just way cuter than a boring cape anyway (I do not hate the Cape ability at all, I just think it's a bit dated), and perhaps a handful of things like Mario's Front Smash animation would be a carry over from his Fire charging one from Mario & Luigi RPG: Superstar Saga, both that, and the end result when he's done charging (or nearly done), and, that's probably about it. meanwhile, Link could perhaps use his Parasail as his recovery instead of his On-Screen Appearance, with his teleportation from Breath Of The Wild being its replacement instead. I love my boy Donkey, but MAN, it sucks that his Moveset hasn't bothered since Deluxe, and from every game onward it started showing its age more, and more, same with Samus (good thing you've already made a "Remake It!" video for both of them). I do overall love Yoshi as is, I just wish that several of his previous attacks weren't replaced with kicks, his Up-Killing Art was his Front-Killing Art as opposed to that random made up one, with a brand new recovery, his double-jump didn't go so high, and that his Last Trump Card brought back his Super Dragon as I never liked that it was replaced with a few-seconds reference. It truly is a shame that Luigi to this day has not only never been true to character, but he's also become some of the most hated fighter ever. All the weirdness would feel way better suited for Waluigi. It's pretty damn odd that despite the Pocket Monster franchise being 2-half decades old, Pikachu, and especially Purin haven't adapted much from their source material, I mean, you'd THINK with the recent Fairy Type they'd give Purin some Fairy moves in replacement to some of its not so good ones. Hopefully, IF there is a next Smash installment maybe these issues could be addressed (provided if Fox McCloud, Ness, Captain Falcon are still around since they haven't appeared in a non-Smash game in a very long time). I hope you'll continue this into a series, and if it does continue, I can't wait for your next video featuring the 14 Deluxe cast! :D Amazing video once again! Even felt some nostalgic vibes too! Love that you even used the 64 announcer countdown, as well as the North American Smash 64 "SMASH" logo in the thumbnail, that's awesome!

I've said it countless times and I'll say it again: Give Mario some bloody hammer-moves. I'll concede that loading up his moveset with references maybe isn't all that feasable since he regularly gets so many new games, and unlike Link, there aren't several incarnations of Mario (we don't talk about Doc). But my word he's used a hammer ever since Donkey Kong and it's his go-to weapon in every single RPG. I'm probably in the minority with this (well, it at least appears so), but in my mind, Mario's hammer is his second-most iconic ability after jumping. I'll disagree on Kirby. The Copy Ability is his thing, and most of his kit being made-up kicks just feels kind of uninspired. I'm not saying that all of his moves need to be replaced with ability moves, since, as you said, some of it stems from Fighter Kirby, but I don't feel that the whimsical nature of the character comes through enough. Even still, not even stuff that base Kirby can do is in his moveset, such as the Slide Kick and Air Bullet. While I don't particularly have anything against Luigi, I definitely see your angle. His specials are all made up tweaks to Mario's. Nowadays, Luigi has more to pull from. I think his Up-Special especially is in need of a rework that fits his signature amazing jumping ability. Concretely, I would opt to make it chargable like in Super Mario Bros. 2 and Super Paper Mario, allowing him to reach enormous heights at full charge. I see a lot of people wanting more of a Luigi's Mansion-influence in his kit, I certainly don't think he deos not need to be based around that. Yes, it's the series where he is the protagonist, but Luigi's other appearances simply outweigh that. Unlike Wario and Yoshi (and also DK), who can have series that are a bit more distanced from from Mario, this does not work with Luigi. This is not saying that it has no room in his moveset. I quite like the concept of Ultimate's grab and wouldn't be against him using the Poltergust in like maybe a Down-Special (it'd be at least be more fitting than F.L.U.D.D. for Mario). Also, the hammer thing with Mario applies to Luigi to a certain extent as well.

Yoshi with a single dragon wing flap for an up special would be neat!

Looking forward to design tier lists on the other newcomers.

Am I about to make ANOTHER 80+ post thread on the Smash fighter's designs?

With Luigi I'm so surprised that they barely did anything with him, considering he's one they could do the most with out of the base twelve. I think Luigi's moveset made sense in Smash 64 because back then the idea of Luigi was just the player 2 to Mario, there were hints of his underdog status here and there, but didn't become as pronounced. By Brawl he should've Blossomed entirely, considering even back then they had a lot to go with. I think if they want to take RPG aspects from Mario games and rep it into a character Luigi would be the biggest contender for that, considering Luigi is the funniest and one of the most fledged out characters in the RPG Mario titles, why else did him and Bowser get games within those series that featured them in the title? (Dream Team and Bowser's Inside Story) because they were the breakout characters of those games. Luigi could take rep there, or even his various abilities from Luigi's Mansion, y'know his own series? Instead of making the only rep he has being a grab and final smash.

Honestly I would really really love Yoshi getting a rework, predominantly a redo on his specials and grabs. Mainly his grab could be improved with a sort of aimed teather grab that could lead to an egg lay ammo system that yoshi could use with his base b soecial to do stock targeting from yoshi island. He could have his flutter be a hold function on his double with wings from mario world or rocket for a dive/jump in the air. His groundpound could be facing the screen and have a small soundwave on either side and double as a get off me type move. And side b could actually account for hus transformations with the car or mole form for a quick rushdown move he can alter on the fly with the ability to charge it. Heck transformations or abilities could have been part of his stock moves, the drill or jackhammer for down air, fair a more pronounced headbut(not gonna lie, don't care for his animation in ultimate as it it is way to reserved) and a tail slap over a swipe as his bair. I am sure this is not the best resolution but it feels more accurate to his line of games.

Pikachu's Final Smash definitely should be updated to Ash's Z-move 10,000,000 bolts. Directly give Ash a cameo too. He's already had a couple indirect ones.

I would bump Pikachu up to A-Tier, since pancaking is my only problem with it. Otherwise, it is a great representation of both an in-game Pikachu and an anime Pikachu that still holds up well to this day! Delivery matters, and the devs making Pikachu feel like its anime counterpart despite not actually being Ash's Pikachu makes its kit feel far more inspired than it would otherwise be, and it helps Pikachu age way better than most pre-Brawl veterans. On the opposite end of the spectrum, I've said many times before that Samus is stuck in 1986, while most veterans from Brawl onwards feel fresh. I also think most of the OG12 has aged better than Samus, hell, even DK, a character who doesn't have his trademark barrels still feels more fresh! Samus in Smash is unusually floaty, has a Frame 4 Up B OoS despite being a zoner, and is weirdly good at fighting up close. Samus also feels underwhelming in terms of delivery, since many of her cannon-based normals have no oomph to them, despite it being her primary weapon. To make things even worse, games like Samus Returns and Dread feature cannon-based melee attacks like the Dash Melee and Melee Counter that pack way more oomph than her current cannon-based normals. Really makes me wonder...

Oooooooh i cannot *WAIT* till we get to Sonic and Ganon.

Competitive tier lists < WHO IS SMASH GOT THE BIGGEST FEET

I think Jigglypuff’s design holds fine as is. Despite gaining the Fairy type, Smash seems to focus on it being the Balloon Pokémon, rather than highlighting its Normal/Fairy typing. From that perspective, it makes sense why it feels so floaty and unconventional as a fighter. And yes, its moveset has expanded greatly since, but if games like Pokémon Unite are any indication, it’s more important to keep the moves that the Pokémon is most well-known for using. In this case, Pound, Rollout, and Sing.

I have strong opinions on most of the original 12, so let me share some of them: MARIO: Mario's my main, in part because he's my favorite gaming character ever. However, he is rather disappointing as far as his Smash depiction goes, mainly because... I feel that he is not that geared towards newcomers. What I mean is that he has four moves that clearly aren't basic at all: forward aerial should send you forward rather than downward, down aerial should be a spike and Cape and FLUDD are just weird moves that new players might not be able to immediately understand how to use. Also, he misses the hammer for his side smash but it is not my main problem with the red mustache'd plumber. DK: agree with you. LINK: here comes an unpopular opinion but... I feel that SSBU Link is in that sort of weird middle ground where he wants to be a generalist Link while also trying his best to be strongly associated with BotW. As for the "main" Link, I'd want him to be mostly based on his more traditional incarnations, like OoT or even TP. In a nutshell, it shouldn't be Link who gets his moveset overhauled to be different from Young Link and Toon Link, but the other way around. SAMUS: agree with you. YOSHI: again, I agree with you. There are a couple of moves here and there that feel somewhat odd (like forward smash or Egg Roll), but the core of the character was done right. KIRBY: I mean, I am among those who think that Kirby's moveset should use his copy abilities for regular attacks so yeah, there's that. Other than this, Kirby can be seen as a beginner-friendly character, but I think that newcomers should be taught that, in Smash, you will use fighters whose movement abilities are vastly different, so Kirby's weak ground movement actually makes somewhat sense and is kind of a foil to Yoshi. As far as his range goes, well, copy abilities... FOX: yeah, Fox could use a bit of a rework. However, I think that his normals are fine. As for his specials, I've seen some interpretations that use Assault's multiplayer as basis, but I'd rather stick with a more generic approach, like give for a jetpack recovery that references the Arwing altogether and such. I'm no expert of Star Fox, though. PIKACHU: so I feel that, right now, Pikachu actually only misses two moves: a replacement for its neutral special and Surf. As for his neutral special, I'd pick Thunder Wave. It could just be a name change (after all, Pikachu's jolt of electricity kinda looks like a wave...) or be completely replaced by the Smash 4 custom move with the same name. As for Surf, it is too big of a part of Pikachu not to be included: make it its side special and we're good. LUIGI: EXTREMELY unpopular opinion incoming, but Luigi... should be a clone of Mario. I mean, Luigi's purpose in the Super Mario series is to be a clone of Mario! Heck, it was even referenced by Mr. Sakurai himself while showcasing Ken! He could be the poster child for clones, making it clear that, in Smash, there might be Echo Fighters. Make him a lighter, faster version of Mario with weaker attacks, but keep some of his whacky sweetspots (though not as strong as they currently are) to show that Luigi does have some hidden capabilities his brother actually lack. As for the Luigi's Mansion series, I'd only reference it in a couple or three moves, not more than that. NESS: I mean, nowadays what keeps Ness from being more faithful to his original appearance? Why not replace PK Fire with Paralysis or Barrier? He'd make for a cool take on the zoner character, as a more defensive version of the archetype. However, I'm not mad at all at his moveset, and I feel that he could still stay the same. After all, Ness already feels very unique in a good way right now. CAPTAIN FALCON: suggesting changes here feels like blasphemy, but I promise these are small ones. Number 1: replace the electric effect used with the Knee of Justice with fire and Number 2: give him blue flames. Then we're good. JIGGLYPUFF: her moveset is fine actually, I don't really want a overhaul with Fairy-type moves or Hyper Voice or who knows. I feel that Sing is, right now, the only sound-based move she needs. That doesn't mean I don't want to replace Rollout though: give her Bounce, like PJiggles suggested in a MockRock video and we're good. I would have never anticipated that Yoshi, of all characters, was the one I'd consider to have the best design out of the original 12...

Personnaly, here's what I would change among the original Smash Bros fighters (without DK or Samus because everything that could be had, you talked about them in your Remake It Videos so...) : Mario: -make his Down Air a neutral air, but make it single hit instead of a multi hit and give Mario a Stomping down air, considering Mario has codified the jump to beat an aneemy in the platformer, I'm surprised he has no references to that in this moveset. Although, I would imagine we would need to tweak his stats a bit, I don't know how broken having 2 spikes on one of the most balanced fighters in the roster would be... Also, when not using Cappy for the Up Special, I want the cap to have the Wings from Super Mario 64's Winged Cap. Link:It's complicated because each smash games is a potential chance for him to change on a few aspect to fit the latest game and that bothers me more it probably should, personnaly, and Link's moveset as it is fine, it's even my favorite to what he has been in the 3 smash games I've played (from Brawl to Ultimate)... I wonder if revamping Young Link to make him more about classic Zelda gameplay and make Link the BOTW champion by default would help, but that has nothing to do for the movesets. Yoshi: I like his moveset as it is but I have to admit, I like the idea making the Up B as a Side B, probably fits better, although, I don't have a good idea for a replacement for the Up B. The fittest is Wing Yoshi technically but the idea just sound boring to me. maybe You could take advantage the Side B being potentially based on the Yoshi's Story egg lunge by making it a quick bouce with a uppercut like trajectory, and to make it more unique, give the flutter jump's armor to it instead. Kirby: I guess the changes should be more stats wise indeed, otherwise, I would only try to have changes toward how the specials work. I do want the smash attacks to have more unique animations, like the forward smash looking more like the Spin Kick and down smash either based upon his former dash attack (minus the momentum) or the Megaton Punch. Fox: I got nothing. Pikachu: beyond your Ideas here, I always wanted a Thunderbolt reference but I don't know to include it properelly... 1st Option: swap Thunder Jolt and Thunder, and make Thunder into Thunder Bolt By reducing it's range or power. 2nd Option: Make it a final smash were Piakchu is joined by other Pikachu's Heck, even try to include things like the other contest Pikachu, all the Pikaclones, even Gigantamaxed Pikachu If you liked it, for Pikachu to perform 10 000 000 Volt Thunderbolt Luigi: A Poltergust comand grab would be fine, but I'm more interested in what your take on him would be, a future subject for Remake It perhaps ? Ness: I know Ness Using the elemental PSI attacks is nothing in the big picture... But still, I would want the specials to be based upon PSI attacks he actually used. But I'm still trying to find ways for them to work. Cpt falcon: I Got Nothing. Jigglypuff: There is so much things I would like to change. A Rapid jab based on Double Slap. make Pound a Side Smash, a new down smash based on gyroball. Make Sing the Neutral B, Rollout the side B, a new final smash based upon Hyper Voice, a fairy type move somewhere like a dazzling gleam up smash, or Charming voice somewhere, maybe have Jiggly sings a note conjuring a heart in front them as side tilt as well as for other tilts and aerials, heck why not not a Up Special even ? (afterall, Love gives wings). So much for the puff, I can't choose XS.

Here are my thoughts: Mario: B tier I think he should lean heavily into the players first character idea and he is doing that fine but he could be better. Donkey Kong: C tier I’ve never understood the problems everyone else has with his design. If I were to make his moveset today pretty much the only change I’ve made would be to add a barrel toss. The only reason I have him this low is because of all those people who are heavily disappointed in his design. Link: A tier I think this Link reflects the gameplay of his games really well. The only thing I’d like to change is to make him more risky and therefore more courageous like his triforce. Samus: F tier if there was one character in this entire series that I’d completely overhaul, it’s Samus. A character that is meant to be a bad ass bounty hunter with a humongous arsenal with the stand out weapons being missiles shouldn’t be a campy character who basically only can charge shot. Yoshi: B tier he seems just a little too aggressive but other than that he is fine. Kirby: A tier one approach tool away from S tier Fox: S tier translates the gameplay and abilities in a very interesting way and his preciseness leads into a respectable leader well. Pikachu: B tier? I don’t know how to rate pokèmon since they aren’t individuals but species. I guess Pikachu is shown as a speedster and they sure are that in smash. Luigi: D tier? Another weird one because Smash defined his personality before Mario did so I don’t know if they should keep current Luigi as a reminder of that or overhaul him for a retroactive personality? Ness: B tier he exemplifies Earthbound very well but he doesn’t do exceptionally well at being the homesick, determined, young boy that is Ness. Captain Falcon: S tier it took a character that only ever had a halfhearted bio in a game magazine into one of the most recognizable and beloved characters in fiction. While I respect others opinions, I will never understand a placement other than S. Jigglypuff: C tier? Pokèmon again, but an even less well defined one on both ends.

I do agree that kirby shouldn't be reference machine but should use still use copy abilities in his move set.

The only Smash fighters that can't be changed (or can't be changed for now) are: Game And Watch Ice Climbers R.O.B Fox, Falco, Wolf (Tho you could change some moves to moves from assault, that would be intresting) Duck Hunt Captain Falcon Kazuya (pretty good representation, tho with Tekken 8 he could change idk) Terry Bogard (same as Kazuya I already think the moveset is good enough, and honestly that's the same way I feel about Ken / Ryu) Wii Fit Trainer (The only thing I would add is a Wii balance board lol) (Also not counting Miis because they are flexible fighters and all of their moves are made up) Dr Mario

I think a good change for Kirby would be this idea I got from someone. This one might be a bit controversial, but I think it would help Kirby a lot. Instead of copying the neutral special of the other fighters, he gets a copy ability from his home series. Basically if I remember correctly, the idea is that all of his specials get replaced and fighters are set into categories of who gives Kirby what. A lot of people probably don't like this idea, but I do think it would give Kirby's signature move more utility.

I honestly thought for a while that skull bash was volt tackle, considering in smash the move looks electrical, is a “tackle-esc” move, even deals recoil to pichu (then again, agility does the same), as well as the obvious fact that it’s the line’s signature move. On one hand, the devs may want to keep volt tackle on final smash due to the games nowadays having gimmicks that, if used as a final smash, will end up being invalid by the next game, but on the other, relying on those one-game mechanics would help represent the series better, especially considering Lucario and incineroar already use such gimmicks for their final smashes. That being said, unless they want to repeat, there isn’t really anything that works for Pikachu currently that isn’t already being used or could be used in the future, as I could totally see them making jigglypuff final smash just be dynamax. Even then, there’s still the issue of pichu, though I could see pichu keeping skull bash as side special and volt tackle as final smash for diversity

Tbh my problem with Kirby is just that he...doesn't really fight like Kirby imo, when I think of Kirby fighting...I don't think of a guy who kicks a lot. I'd personally change his smash attacks, his aerials are fine and his tilts I'd change his down tilt to a slide. I know he doesn't have to be like Mega Man but it's weird that a series about using different abilities...is very rarely doing that while the other is doing it just fine. It's so weird since...only 3 of his moves are from fighter and the rest are boring

Never realized Mario’s fighting moveset was changed to a rush down style. Interestingly

idea for a new yoshi up b: shell shot on the ground: yoshi eats and spits out a green koopa shell. in the air: same but with a blue shell, giving yoshi wings and a similar up-b to isabelle/villager. once yoshi lands/runs out of flaps, he spits the shell back out same as before

Great video once again. Almost exactly my thoughts on most characters except for one… Luigi gets an F? Bro you trippin.😂

Ultimate Luigi is probably my least favorite version of him in the series, but F tier is pretty harsh.

Giving Mario some Odyssey rep in his moveset would've been so easy. Just make Cappy his tether grab like they did for Luigi with his Poltergust. It's SO easy. Great video! I'm looking forward to more of this! I disagree it's entirely out of character for Luigi to be wacky (see the RPGs) but toning down his power so he's not annoying or toxic is totally fine. He should succeed more by fake outs and a "drunken fist" fighting style, not by sudden explosions or zero-death-combos lol.

as a Luigi fan i STRONGLY disagree

In terms of as a character and not stats and movesets, Young Link would count as one of the original twelve because he is Ocarina of Time Link. Also, straight up replacing Twilight Princess Link with BotW Link makes the “Everyone is Here” line in the advertising a big fat lie. Twilight Princess and BotW are separated in terms of the Zelda timeline by over ten millennia if its official placement is the child timeline. Twilight Princess Link is not the same character as BotW Link due to said 10,000 year gap. Why didn’t they make BotW Link an Echo Fighter and introduce the Wolf Link transformation for Twilight Princess Link as an excuse to include Midna into the roster? Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess Zeldas could have simply been alternate renders like with Shulk’s underwear alt or shirtless Sephiroth. Without those three in the playable roster as themselves and not as color swaps, the “Everyone is Here” line isn’t true. On another note, Smash 4’s Fierce Deity alt looks better than Smash Ultimate’s.

For me, ranking these depends entirely on if it's the legacy of 64 onward, how good they've been throughout the years, or if we can judge them off their peaks, which may or may not have passed. For instance, Ness is trash in 64 and Melee, though I guess that's more a balance thing as opposed to design. But like... Captain Falcon's design hasn't changed too much over time, and Melee Falcon is an absolute 10/10, but he's been off the mark since then, mostly attributable to the games' universal mechanics. There's also the power of hindsight. Samus' design was pretty good in 64, but especially in a world where Metroid Dread has come and gone, it makes her feel antiquated. But Smash has seemingly never had time for comprehensive reworks. Even Links' BotW-ification is pretty tame. It's mooostly changing his bombs and removing the hookshot. Picking up arrows is very close to nothing, as is reverting the gale boomerang to a normal one, since that was a thing in 64 and Melee. With all that being said, I'll give it a try, kind of taking everything into account, but judging them mostly off their peaks, especially if their peaks are in Melee or Ultimate. S: Captain Falcon, Fox (Both improvised, and two of the most iconic movesets in the series) A: Ness, Mario, Yoshi, Link B: Pikachu, DK, Kirby C: Luigi D: Samus F: Jigglypuff (Also improvised mostly, but aggressively lame, and a complete waste of a roster spot in my eyes.)

One idea I like for Jigglypuff is replacing her neutral special with bounce, which she can learn in modern games. Using it on the ground would cause he to quickly bounce into the air, and using it in the air would cause her to quickly go to the ground. It would help with air speed and getting back on the ground.

"characters shouldn't become a list of references" *makes pikachu a list of references*

I dislike when people try to go full “Mega Man” on characters’ tilts and aerial. Tilts are supposed to be quick, weak, insignificant moves. It makes since why most tilts are made up. As a fighter, a character should use what they have as a person. Mario has big feet, so he should use them for one or two standard attacks even if he never did such things in his games. Kirby for example, his up and side tilt are perfect. No need to have a copy ability for them. You don’t want to give such significant moves too much flair. Tho, I do have to agree with everyone and say he should have his slide tackle from his game as his new down tilts.

Honestly, my least favorite part of your ranking is how low Luigi is. I get that the competitive community has soured your opinion on Mario's taller brother, but is it really that bad? I mean, if we're going with a mix of accuracy and artistic license, his throws and grabs primarily use the Poltergust, his old Final Smash took the most advantage of the idea that he's the unsung hero of the Mario series, and if nothing else, the fact that he's quite viable in the games could reflect how people look at him not with disdain or insulting remarks, but as someone to look up to in life. Optimistic rant aside, I like how Mario and Link are firmly in A-tier, while DK's low placement is relatively justified. Like, we don't even have a barrel-based attack for him.

I think Kirby deserves a bigger change then a few changes to work anywhere higher than very low level as well as sticking out. To me he feels like a slow and somehow less versatile Mario. Not to mention he has some of the worst set of specials that are not only dated but the worst of their kind. I do see the appeal of Kirby being simple but the complexity of Kirby's abilities as well as just how deep of an arsenal he canonically has over many other characters doesn't put a more nuance one out of the picture. Finally I think Kirby should be a slower character but he should have the tools to help him approach or at least get foes to do so. He has the right tools in his own game but smash restricts his move variety even more than Ganondorf.

I mostly agree with Kirby, I do think that he doesn't need every single move to be a copy ability, but I think at least his smash attacks should be more than generic kick attacks. His down air would also work really well as the tornado ability and its honestly a crime that his down tilt isn't the downwards sliding attack from his games

Someones salty about Luigi 13:40

Tbh all Luigi needs is better stats, a few new moves, and some tweaking to the stuff he already has. You were definitely a bit harsh on Luigi here. While I agree he could use some new stuff, he isn’t that bad, just needs better design

I think you were pretty harsh on Luigi. Even if from a balance perspective he's pretty bad his moveset is still fairly in-character, as a slightly whimsical and tryhard-ish version of Mario's and even having his grab changed to give him his Poltergust. He's arguably more accurate to his canon personality than his own brother. Also THANK YOU for agreeing Kirby shouldn't be a Mega Man-esque reference fest. Kirby having simple regular attacks is perfectly fine and fits his games' core philosophy. In my opinion a best-case scenario for a Kirby rework is keeping all the ability moves where he materializes something from thin air for smash attacks and specials. He does not need to spit ice or swing the Star Rod for a forward tilt. As a matter of fact I helped on a Rivals of Aether mod that did this: all of Kirby's tilts and aerials are the same as Smash(minus down tilt which is the slide kick, and dash attack is the Break Spin move from Yo-Yo ability which was his DA back in Brawl and SSB4). We only changed his smash attacks and specials except Inhale and Stone.

ok this tier list is...interesting yeah that's a word I can use. while most of it is generally agreeable there are a couple of takes I have no idea what to do with fox and puff in particular but out of this whole list I gotta ask what the fuck is up with falcon. I have no idea how someone could justify falcon not being at the top of the tier list. first of all his gameplay is phenomenal he manages to get the feeling of f-zero into a fighting game flawlessly with fast hyper aggressive gameplay but every option he chooses is very committal like choosing between pressing your lead or stopping for a quick heal in f-zero. the moveset itself is perfect as the character designs in f-zero were heavily inspired by both eastern and western comics so sakurai combined both with is moveset. as for why you bumped him down B the only two real arguments you gave in favor of that placement were his personality and him being a copy paste from the fighter in the smash 64 demo. I can former very quickly sakurai has released footage and design docs of smash 64 and out of the entire moveset the only moves they even have in common are jab, and forward tilt. and in terms of personality all falcon had at the time were a single comic that came with the original f-zero and come on are you going to tell me you prefer that interpretation of falcon compared to the hero of everyone smash portrays. not to mention in future installments of the series f-zero embraced the smash falcon and turning that version into the definitive version of the character. it's so weird how in this video you constantly go off about how "movesets don't need to be just references" yet the moment you see a fighter who takes any creative liberty you're "confused". ps: puff is an S tier design and a perfect joke character don't have time to make a second essay but yeah

Jigglypuff should have been the Duck from Duck Hunt. Lots of jumps because wings, bait and punish because the duck changes direction to bait you into shooting so it can fly away, easy to KO because they go down in one shot... yeah the Duck doesn't attack, but if it did it would be with kicks and a long neck which translates pretty well to Jigglypuff's expanding hand and kicks... Obviously, there's no Sing equivalent, but how often do you actually use Sing? That's a move that seems to exist because it's Jigglypuff not because it works with the character archetype... the big thing though is Rest which is easy to switch to a move that actually makes sense: Getting Shot. That may sound dumb, but an attack that does huge damage if you overlap hit boxes and that knocks them out for a long time is not Rest, but is absolutely what would result from getting shot by an NES zapper while overlapping them. Definitely would need a different up special, could do with a new neutral special, but since both of those are super situational already that's absolutely not a loss; and heck, if this was done properly in 64 they wouldn't have even needed a rollout replacement, and could have easily made getting shot up-B and made down-B like rustling a bush or something... or dropping an egg, which I think would be a better move, but isn't from Duck Hunt. EDIT from the future, I don't know how I didn't think about Game C clay pigeon shooting which itself is a direct reference to Nintendo's very first videogame; rather than dropping an egg they launch a clay pigeon but not as a projectile because Jigglypuff's moveset doesn't need a projectile instead from the screen for a delayed getting shot hitbox when it's Z-axis gets in line with the fighters. I think hiding in a bush could still be fun if clay pigeon is a side-B, but it's kinda hard to think what Jigglypuff's archetype needs really, dodging in and out with your wings, normal attacks and still neutral-B peck (instead of pound) really do most of the work as is already. I mean, honestly it could've probably been Mew just as effectively given how little Jigglypuff actually fights like a Jigglypuff, but Duck honestly makes so much sense for their fighting style it should have happened... although obvious Smash 64 was too close to deadline to begin with so, oops.

yoshi side special can break shields

Luigi's moveset needs to go full Luigi's Mansion come next game

To be hones,your the best ranker I "know",better than Nathaniel.

You are too harsh towards some characters, they are all still great fighters designwise despite their shortcomings

Mario, i do think it's a crime that he was never given Cappy as an actual move, just a taunt, and flair, even just making cap throw a new side tilt that could also show off certain new mechanics that other fighters have. Link, i think should have at least gotten a small overhaul with more moves, spin attack should really be made into his down smash these days, considering all the other gear and abilities he has, or even just adding visual flair to certain things, like just visuals of the champion abilities during certain things. (grounded Spin Attack would get Urbosa's fury, aerial Spin Attack would get Revali’s Gale, parrying would get Darruk's Protection, and reviving on a recovery platform would get Mipha's Grace.) Kirby, even as a Kirby fan, these days i'm just... not that big with most of his moves being taken from Fighter, especially with other abilities that also excel at close to mid range combat, with almost all of his moves being a reference to one single ability, why couldn't he get more thrown in to his kit, especially giving him a tool to rush down opponents. Pikachu, i really feel Thunder Jolt should be changed, even if it was just a name change, but really yeah, Skull Bash has to go, it doesn't even make that much sense when you think, this Pikachu would have to have originally been a Pichu to learn Volt Tackle. Also with Iron Tail up smash shout out to the Brawl mod Project + for doing exactly that. Luigi, he really does need an overhaul as you said, but not just to change his playstyle, his whole moveset needs it too, like i do like the idea of him having a bag of tricks that can catch you off guard, like Luigi catching a ghost off guard in his games, but i think making him like Mario with his own twists and giving him his own moves, would be a perfect base for reworking Luigi Ness, not a nitpick, but a small thing to what you brought up, it was actually said to be canon to Smash that Paula taught Ness those PSI/PK techniques he cannot learn to give him a better chance at fighting. Jigglypuff... honestly is really hard to do anything new with, mostly just out of what she has, the only real change I can think of is replacing Rollout with sing and giving her an actual recovery tool, maybe changing one of her smash attacks into something like Disarming Voice or like you said Hyper Voice.

I disagree with a few but I'm also taking into consideration the taunts and the character outside of the moveset

Saying that Luigi and DK have aged worse than Jigglypuff is ridiculous to me. I get that they've had significant developments in their sources since Smash 64 came out but at least they work for the archetypes they try to present. Jigglypuff is... not exactly great, as you said she's mostly just there because she had a big presence in the Pokemon anime and is kind of a big joke, and keeping her kit the same for the past 20+ years or so has just made people realize how campy and boring it actually is. I feel like she should get axed because she isn't exactly the greatest choice by today's standards, but people will probably get mad at such a thing happening, not just because their favorite character got cut but moreso because she's already just made her place in Smash history and it just feels offputting to cut one of the original 12.

If Mario were released today as a new fighter, He'd probably have a coin counter and a down special that changes his power up state.

Your Luigi rant seems weird. TBH, Luigi’s underhanded tactics making him more hated IS IN CHARACTER!