@@justaformer11b95 any flex in the hand guard will cause a POI shift, whether it's a sling causing flex or off a barricade. There is zero shift on the receiver.
I honestly enjoy this series. Information is always there, you just need to know where to find it, and determine if it's true. You guys do amazing work. Would love to see more "Smyths" on the AK and AR platform.
@@chrissewell1608 well I actually had that happen myself with a upper from psa. Look into it and it was happening quite often with some of the handguards that they used at the time. So it wouldn't surprise me.
Idk, to some degree I think it may be worth it, some rifle setups just require it. Like if you have backup irons you may need to move some of your optic accessories forward and it may end up on the end of the receiver/hand guard. Or maybe you gotta adjust for eye relief.
I caught myself when I started to mount my first LPVO, had the front mount on the hand guard.. got caught up in the excitement. 🤣. Corrected it before final mounting and loc-tite though and she runs just fine.
When reinstalling a handguard I like to use a Magpul rear sight positioned over the joint between the handguard and the upper receiver to give a final alignment before I tighten it down.
By far the best hair in the business. Those boys at Brownells should come out with their own hair products line. Like a palmdale that has a pleasent Hoppe scent😂 Not really but you could call it gun related stuff names and as with anything Brownells you would get quality stuff!!
That's why they make cantilever optic mounts, to account for long optics with short eye relief. Most people are mounting optics on the handguard or "bridging" out of pure ignorance. Some things aren't free to explore one's personal preference. I have a Aero Precision COP C4 monolithic upper and I still see no reason to mount an optic forward of the receiver area. I also have several AP M4E1 uppers with handguards that screw and torque down to the upper's barrel nut extension. There's no way that mounting style can flex or rotate, but I still wouldn't mount an optic that far forward.
I agree with the front sight statement. If the front sight is good enough to use out to whatever distance, the optic will be as well. No magic here. As long as the handguard is stiff and installed correctly, it should be fine. If you are talking about 200 yards plus, it certainly can be an issue, but at 100, fuggetaboutit. If I have time, I may even move the optic forward and put the iron sights back on the test it.
Here’s a thought, if you want your optic way out forward, mount it on the receiver as far forward as possible in a cantilever mount to put the optic out that much further over the handguard…
The only time I mount an optic on the upper and the rail is just to initially get the hand guard straight. After that, keep it on the receiver from that point forward.
I've got one of the first Colt LE901 rifles with the monolithic rail and I run an Aimpoint Comp M4 on it right above the ejection port, never thought about putting a sight on a rail over the barrel, in my opinion that's for lights and such. ;-)
I’m built pretty long so I usually mount a cantilever mount about 2/3 on the receiver and about 1/3 of it is clamping onto the hand guard. It’s always been fine on my long range guns and it ensures great rail alignment if I run a backup sight or something on the front.
@@AnonymouslyAwsome My PSA isn't jUst aS gOoD, but it's definitely gOoD eNoUgH. I'm not putting 1,000 rounds a week through my gun, or trying to snipe fleas at 500 yards. I didn't choose between PSA and Daniel Defense, I chose between PSA and nothing. Even so, I can get ~2 MOA with the right ammo, and ~3-4 MOA with steel-cased garbage ammo. She isn't pretty, or light, or super slick, but she runs good and hits where I aim so I'm happy. That said, I don't bridge my optics because I'm not dumb and also because I run A2 handguards instead of rails. TL;DR - Have some sympathy for the poors, and don't bridge your optics
Question about lasers and such: Do military rifles experience *less* shift because the top handguard is secured to the front sight post/gas block assembly? It seems like that would make the front end of the handguard more stable than a free-floated handguard that only attaches at the barrel nut. Or at least bring the shifting of the handguard more in line with the shifting of the barrel itself.
One thing they didn’t specifically mention was that quad rails tend to hold their zero the best out of all the other types of hand guards. Most military rifles with ir/lasers have quad rails on them so they tend to hold up better .
@@ashershapiro123 That answers the question "Why are lasers fine on the front of the handguard?" but doesn't address the question of "Do free float handguards have more shift at the front than fixed handguards?" I realize that it probably doesn't make a practical difference at CQB ranges, but I'm curious whether a difference technically exists.
Front iron sights, if you use them, are mounted to the hand guard of most ARs unless you have the original type that is paired with the gas block. I agree that optics are best mounted to the upper receiver but unless you are shooting longer ranges, I don’t think it’s an issue.
This is why I love the AR-15 platform that allows every shooter their own set up and style. You can go all out ugly or stick to basics and stay lightweight. My rifle fully loaded with 30 rounds and attachments is already over 9 lbs.
I remember seeing photos of PMCs in Iraq early in the war who had Eotechs mounted all the way up front on their ARMS SIR rails. It certainly looked weird and I always wondered what the perceived advantage was? All I know is that nobody else seemed to be in a rush to copy that particular way of mounting an optic, probably for a good reason.
The reticle gets bigger and it's also 100% clearer to look at but the arms rail is supposedly to be "rock solid". Word around the street is that the further out a optic is the higher the parallax.
It is highly dependant on your rail, but yes, you are likely to see the same problems with rail mounted irons. And the shorter the sight radius the more pronounced any sight shift will be. Thats why the high end mfgs marketing to SOF started contriveing funky ways to keep barrel mounted irons. (Reference hk416, fnscsr, ar15 handguards with gas block front sight holes) Ofc then everyone realized no one had been using backup irons, and they could just spend that 500 bucks on spare batteries
what about the 1913 not being spaced properly since the rail and receiver are usually not made to mate up seamlessly? Aero does a continuous 1913 rail from upper to rail on some of theirs but the spacing differences can also affect how your mount locks up. you might not get all recoil lugs up against their 1913 slots.
I've seen some shotgun shooters mount a microdot at the very end of the barrel and essentially use it as an electronic bead. But they were also running AK-derivative shotguns with no sturdy low mounting point close to shooter.
Reason I don't mount anything on the receiver and the handguard is heat... heat causes expansion. receiver will expand at a different rate then a handguard. take one of those el cheapo harbor freight point and measure thermometers and measure the heat differences of the receiver and the handguard where the barrel nut is after say 10-15 rounds heat things up.
@@Mauser.K98.Guy.243 if absolute precision is not your goal peep sights are fine. back in the day in the mid 70's/early 80's when i was in the Marine Corp those old original M16's we were issued were not known for much accuracy. sure we had to hit that fuzzy bullseye thru iron sights at 500 yards to qualify but that was also a huge 18" black dot on the target if i'm remembering right. Just throwing that steaming pile of poo early M16 at the enemy was more accurate.
I've noticed people who tell you that you shouldn't have a scope mounted on the handguard usually have a front sight mount all the way at the end of their handguard.
And that sight is somewhat sensitive to pressure added to the front of the rifle. At "combat" distances, its not going to really matter. Try to shoot tiny groups, however, and your consistency in hold will show up on paper.
@@ThaHerbanLegend I'm shocked by incongruent arguments. You are not suppose to put a scope on the handguard because of reasons, but somehow the front sights on the far end of the handguard are immune to the same reasons?
@@the_hwyman it obviously has to do with the amount of deviation . Hand guard flex with a red dot or scope will affect your POI way more and deviate a lot more than irons because irons have the benefit of a longer sight radius
Depends on your upper/handguard. Offsets and IR devices i Mount on the handguard. Primary optics, red dots, LPVOs on the upper receiver always. If you have a high end well build upper and handguard, you’ll be fine. Especially when it comes to a secondary aiming system like an IR laser and offset red dot, they will be fine.
I experimented with Jeff Coopers idea of pistol scopes. Presently I have a Leupold 4X pistol scope on the end of my monolithic Lewis Machine &Tool. Seems ok except getting an immediate sight picture can be tricky. The mounts are about 2/3 thy way to the end.
A hand guard rail should definitely not be used to mount an optic! But... if you have a takedown rifle such as a Ruger PC Carbine or a 10/22 Takedown it would be better to mount an optic onto the barrel itself as it would be the most accurate to mount it directly to the barrel, since there could be significant play between the barrel and the receiver.
Tbh i agree as an engineer and understood the drawbacks you said. But ive disproven/proven your theory. (Guess an ar stoner handguard and upper is solid enough and has an anti rotation tab like you mentioned.) I shoot 1 moa groups with my 300 blk ar stoner upper v1. 16” 1:7. Handloads. 2in cast handload refurb. when i had my free scope lying around, I always realized i could have better accuracy with a different scope and mount but this one was free and off my old mosin. So ive had my long eye relief vortex scope on my ar stoner v1 handguard and ivd shot 1moa groups and use it to test all my loads at 50 yards. Ive easily shot over 1k rounds through it.
You've got to remember that there's a difference between "this is generally bad practice" and "this will never work." Your rifle seems to be fine with that arrangement, but if you took your scope/mount and put them on 100 different rifles, it would probably cause issues more often than not.
Ya I've ran a hollow sun on the hand rail, and 3x magnifier on the receiver so I could fit in flip up irons. I noticed that my zero with irons was far right on the windage, so i started looking into it. I found I had rotation, and the picatinny rails were not aligned, but I couldn't see it where the holo was.. I think my set up is an issue now.
Yeah I've gotten some flak on a complete build that I bought which I did not assemble there's a set of Midwest backup iron sights Holosun 510c and a magnifier however it takes up so much real estate that just the very front portion of the hollow son is on that barrel nut section where it's slightly over hanging onto the handguard. I've gotten mad Flack from the internet on that one LOL but it shoots accurate and it's never had a problem with zero so I'm kind of iffy on how much I really give a crap about this, at least in my instance.
But, backup front sights at the far end of the hand guard is just fine though? I guess a shifted POI in an optics failure scenario, is better than no sights at all. Still going to be some shift if the hand guard is impacted either by being "bent", or by being used as a steadying support.
Don't forget that the rear sight is on the receiver and the sight line is so long, that it doesn't have any noticable effect, the practical precision of an ironsight is way below that. There is much greater inaccuracy on the user side.
Here’s a challenge: using an original A2 upper with a mounted MOE over barrel, can we somehow mount a Holosun optic and a x3 magnifier behind it scout-style in between the carry handle and gas block sight
Bridging with a dual ring scope mount can put a lot of stress on your scope. It may not be an issue with a single piece cantilever mount, but I still wouldn't risk it
Buy an ADM Recon, cantilevers forward so you have plenty of receiver to mount to also, unlike this video, don't screw your LPVO down directly on top of your BUIS if there's no clearance.
I mean, I guess I never thought of this as a myth. The best place to mount a scope is on the receiver area, any where else you run a higher chance of optics shifting. However, I do personally like forward mounted optics, I just whish there was a solid way to mount them without issues later on.
Love these segments...........Have you tackled the issue of not leaving ammo in your glove box because the vibration will break down the powder and change the pressure causing it to be unsafe?
So what your saying is my 1 1/2 lb. Chinese drop in quad rail isn't good to mount optics on. Can't even yard sale it knowing that. So boat anchor it is.
I've got a chungus of a red dot from SIG, and between BUIs and adding a magnifier, I might be forced to bridge. I *think* I'll be okay since it's likely to only be one or two slots, three at most, and I have an Aero M4E1 upper and enhanced handguard which is sort of semi-monolithic.
Same exact situation here with the Romeo 7. But if the clamp itself stays on the receiver then it shouldn’t be an issue. Aero handguards are well built too
Kinda OCD but I hate that the scope is over the rear site. Kinda makes it pointless to add the weight. 45 mounted sure. But not under the scope when it can't flip up.
Heads up fellow shooters. If you purchase any Brownells products on Optics Planet you have no warranty. I have notified both that I would warn you. Joe Harris
heck I agree I always thought that is one of the reason you had a full length top rail, encase you needed the room for optics and other mounted gear/equipment, I mount my optic wherever zI think it suites me best, because it pretty much takes an act of God to move out of alignment anyway I put my handrails through heck and back and they are still solid and have not moved out of alignment
I completely understand your point in terms of bridging the gap between the upper receiver and the handguard, especially if your mount is 2 separate rings. However, my front sights are all mounted at the end of the handguard. I’ve been considering a scout scope (intermediate eye relief). That particular rifle has alignment tabs for the handguard and it’s pretty rugged.
Is that a Strike Industries latchless charging handle? If so, I LOVE IT. Have them on 2 of my builds. (I like running them without the polymer iso latch that you can buy as an attachment)
I have them too! I love them as a lefty. I just ordered a radian raptor as everyone says they are the best as well. The radian raptor isnt latchless but still ambi so, it might provide more positive locking. Ill have to see and post a video
These issues are the exact reason I think a free floating barrel is not necessarily a more accurate shot when using iron sights attached to the hand guard. All it takes is the hand guard getting smacked hard enough towards the front and I guarantee that gun won't be zeroed anymore as apposed to the front sight mounted to the barrel.
you can but the problems lies in with the harmonics of the rail.. they tend to wobble and it can break your optic. Typically a monolithic upper will do away with this problem.
As someone who has mounted their aimpoint pro on the handguard, I vouch for it. Don't do it. Lol. Poi will change over time. So my zero shifting right after round 200 rounds.
I saw a guy once who had an ACOG on a monolithic upper. All that rail space and he bought an optic with the shortest eye relief imaginable. It felt like my poverty was being laughed at.
If it is a bad idea to put an optic on the handguard, would that same POI shift also apply to mounting a front sight on a handguard? Is it a bad idea to put a front sight on a handguard?
At the ranges and against the targets most rail mount irons are intended for use, the shift in POI is less significant than getting enough sight radius, so mounting at the end of the rail is the better(or less bad, depending on your point of view) choice, assuming the handguard is half decent and properly installed. If you're looking to mount target irons rather than battle irons, you should probably consider a different setup, though, like the monolithic uppers or maybe? the older style where the front sight mounts to the barrel.
@@spudgamer6049 There are literally thousands of rifles with BUISs on their handguards. I wonder how many of those owners checked their BUISs for accuracy. And of the ones that did, how many assumed that they were bad shots with iron sights instead of checking the iron sights themselves.
I'd venture to say that for most shooters, the tiny loss of accuracy will never be noticed. The rifle may be sub MOA, but the operator is minute of coffee mug.
The AR is not a sniper rifle, and 99.9999% of people and 99.9999% of the guns won't shoot accurately enough to worry about this. Good work/research, but I feel you missed the base issue - most people (myself included) just need to practice perfectly more. How many benchrests are used in gun fights? Get off the bench! Once one does, then this is a mute point.
