Sol Ring Should be Banned | Fact or Fiction 01 | The Command Zone | Commander MTG

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Show Notes:
The debate is on! Sol Ring may be the most played card in commander, but it’s also one of the most controversial! This episode, our panel of experts sits down to discuss the merits of Sol Ring in the commander format. Is it too good? Does it make games better or worse? What would Commander look like without it? And the greatest question of them all, should it be banned? Find out in this episode of Fact or Fiction!
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Relevant Links:
Gaurav Gulati
Twitter: @DoubleGXG
IG: @doublegxg
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Commander Rules and Ban List:
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Timestamps:
00:00:00:00 - Intro
00:04:39:17 - Main Topic Discussion
00:05:20:23 - Let's Talk About Sol Ring
00:17:05:12 - What Does Sol Ring Add to the Format?
00:24:05:15 - What Harm Does Sol Ring Do?
00:43:46:09 - Is the Format Better Without Sol Ring?
00:47:36:08 - They Ban It: A Hypothetical
00:50:28:12 - What Are the Repercussions?
00:59:46:22 - What About Mana Crypt?
01:03:44:06 - Back to the Repercussions
01:06:58:21 - Fact or Fiction?
01:07:15:04 - Outro
#magicthegathering #mtg #commander #mtgcommander #edh #podcast #commandzone

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Опубликовано:

29 май 2023

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Комментарии : 1,3 тыс.

@commandcast Год назад

What do you think? Would Commander be better without Sol Ring? Does that mean the Rules Committee should ban it?

@hpdre7437 Год назад

CanLander has a points list. Commander could adopt that. Not the exact cards maybe, but the idea. The mutual exclusivity idea near the end of the episode was good too.

@Greg501- Год назад

They banned Golos for apparently being too generic, then follow that logic and ban the "trinity" (plus Mana Crypt) of Sol Ring, Command Tower, and Arcane Signet.

@xBakesale Год назад

I think the best way to combat a card like sol ring (or treasures) is to print cards that deal with it. Loran of the Third path is an excellent example of a card that is played early to destroy something like a sol ring with extra value going later into a game, love the design of this card.

@jamescain9464 Год назад

it would be worse, if sol ring does get banned then mana rocks like mana crypt, the signets, the talismans, etc. would also need to be banned. mana crypt is way more ban able since the only reason its NOT in literally any deck is because its prohibitively expensive. its "downside" isnt even really a downside in commander, it kills you in 13 turns if youre unlucky isnt much of a downside

@HTYM Год назад

I think we should ban the way we pronounce Sol Ring. There's no 'u' in the name. It's Sol, a word meaning "sun." Sun, as in fire, heat, or more appropriate to MTG: energy. Energy as in mana. It's an energy ring, not a spiritual ring. Sol, not "soul."

@zachariahwright9732 Год назад

Not trying to get a dunk here, but the EDHREC %s are based on the percent of decks that play the card that could legally play it. So Swords to Plowshares being at 60-ish% means that 60-ish% of decks that contain white in their commander identity are playing it, not 60-ish% of total decks. Hope this helps future discussions!

@N3mdraz Год назад

thnx for the explanation, but less fun. Its more fun people believe 60% of the decks are white xd

@SimWOT Год назад

I went for thinking the % was really high to thinking it's really low.😁

@YawgmothWasRight Год назад

Hilarious to me that they would think for a second that 60% of ALL DECKS have Swords to Plowshares, when only 45% of decks play white, which is the least of the 5 colors.

@dbballer91 Год назад

The real question, should we ban islands? But we're not ready for that conversation yet

@quayo90 Год назад

Yes, but also it is still the 3rd most played card. I think it’s just probably easier to say “60%” as a reference point, instead of “about 694k decks”

@cockman8437 Год назад

I love the name fact or fiction, I think “Hostile Negotiations” could be a good name too.

@fronteraking3380 Год назад

If you take away sol ring from commander, then take away mana vault and mana crypt, jeweled lotus.

@abouttime837 Год назад

they’re not nearly as used as sol ring in casual decks.

@ARC--5973 Год назад

I find your terms... acceptable

@frisbeez1775 Год назад

@A T because they weren't made as available. If you printed them in commander decks like sol ring, they would be.

@B3NN3TT066 Год назад

I agree, BEGONE FAST MANA!

@yellowmusicbox5391 Год назад

Also ban lands then

@Herobizkit597 Год назад

I've found that Sol Ring shows up on turn 1 in far more YT Commander games than I thought statistically possible, to the point where I assumed that Commander games were rigged to let someone have it on turn 1. I'm so happy that those turn 1-3 Sol Ring draw odds were addressed.

@dmetriusagurs Год назад

yo I was thinking the same thing this week watching some videos on here. It's gotta be rigged in some capacity.

@Skeeeewoah Год назад

Or people just cheat and shuffle it to the top

@lesternomo6578 Год назад

generally recorded commander games don't show the mulligan process, but as they bring up in the video, a sol ring in hand makes you much more inclined to keep a hand regardless of the rest of the cards in the hand. I can't speak for anyone else but my play group uses the friendly mulligan rule where you can mulligan until you get a keepable hand with no downside, with the expectation that you don't try really hard to get a crazy opening hand, just keeping anything with the right amount of lands and an early play or some ramp. I don't know if youtubers mulligan this way or go by the actual mulligan rules, but regardless mulligans absolutely play a part in seeing more early sol rings than you'd think there would be

@a9sdg9oajs Год назад

given you have a hand of 7, you're about 7% chance to have sol ring in any one hand. There are 4 players, bumping that up to almost 30% chance any game has at least 1 player with a sol ring. Then you add in mulligans. When mulliganing, players will always keep the sol ring. So it's not unlikely that lots of games will have at least 1 person play a turn 1 sol ring

@flame7407 Год назад

so you have deck with soul ring is just a soul ring or is the mana curve more foucs on getting 5 drop on turn 1 turn 2 or 3 in the deck i made xenagos god of revels my mana curve is high because i want him out no later then turn 4 so i use 5 mana that taps for 2 mana i use 2 lands that tap for 3 mana for a land i use 9 cards of the fast mana artfacts 2 1 mana enchanments that let me play extra land on my turn and on my oppents turn i have 5 creatures to help my commander out early and i run 1 instant for xenagos turn one turn 2 1 sorcery to help me out as well so on my commander comes out turn 1 turn 2 turn 3 soeasy and i dont need soul ring to do it but i run it all i need chrome mox land jeweled lotus 3 cards for xenagos turn 1

@MrZzyzx888 10 месяцев назад

Gaurav’s fast mana restriction is quite good. Also love Rachel’s idea about tiers. Prof literally has a commander game where he tells everyone to bring level 7 commander decks and they can’t agree on what it means. Having some clear guidelines would help you establish roughly where your deck power is against randoms.

@alanevans5353 Год назад

Banning Sol Ring would cause a lot of controversy. But I have a good compromise. They should restrict it in commander.

@esergio 10 месяцев назад

😂

@Gauldoth88 8 месяцев назад

The issue is Green. They would ramp alone, everyone would have to play that terrible color.

@superjakeyo7559 5 месяцев назад

@@Gauldoth88artifact ramp and treasures still exist, other colors can still keep up

@AgentArcadia Год назад

Its heartbreaking that Sol Ring is attacked more than Mana Crypt SPECIFICALLY because it's so accessible. It's almost income-shaming at that point

@RobertTheSmall Год назад

Sol Ring is usually just shorthand for fast mana in most cases. I can't see someone trying to make a serious and well constructed argument that Sol Ring should be banned but we 100% need Mana Crypt and jewled lotus.

@themasterprocrastinator Год назад

EXACTLY !!! I'd argue that any of the legal moxes are just as bad when it comes to turn 1 unfair advantage ...

@burnsboy101 Год назад

I mean, it’s the complete opposite 😂 mana crypt is targeted because if you play it at a lower power table the decks no longer casual?

@JohnDoe-vc5qb Год назад

Neither of them should be banned tho. Cards like that are the only reason jank decks are even aposibiltiy in edh. Imagine trying to play some Garbo 8 mana commander with your only ramp being green ramp spells. People like the RC weirdos act as if everyone is using them solely to run 3 mana commanders with 2 generic mana or some shit.

@damonlouis6536 Год назад

crypt is worse in casual because of the damage factor. if you are playing control you make the game go long and have more flips

@RBGolbat Год назад

52:00 There’s no way they’d ever ban Sol Ring after all the Sol Ring variants in the Lord of the Rings set.

@LaxusGaming47 Год назад

Wotc =/= commander ban list makers tho?

@RBGolbat Год назад

The portion of the video I linked was them saying that they would coordinate so that way they would stop putting Sol rings in commander decks around the time of a Sol Ring announcement, but I doubt it would happen at all.

@soren1803 Год назад

@@LaxusGaming47in name only, don’t delude yourself

@thekurtrussell4007 Год назад

@@LaxusGaming47 yeah but the Lotr set is one of the non standard legal sets, right?

@hermandarmawan4610 Год назад

I am afraid that if someday RC ban sol ring, WotC will take the power of RC from them.

@davidarmstrong3964 Год назад

The problem with banning Sol Ring now is it will make every precon unplayable out of the box which I can’t imagine WotC wanting to do.

@faerie7dragon Год назад

Yeah, it is the most lukewarm take ever.

@venenuminauro Год назад

And don't forget budget players will have less powerful decks and not budget players will have even more power.

@adarkimpurity Год назад

Painbow?

@SimWOT Год назад

It's the weird thing that if you look only through the game perspective, it could make sense. But when you factor the outside factor it makes the decision way more difficult. Also pretty sure WOTC isn't the "owner" of the commander format (I might be wrong though)

@jonathanbrown8692 Год назад

@@SimWOT Commander started out as EDH (Elder Dragon Highlander) Originally only the Elder Dragons could be used as a commander, but that soonishly evolved into being able to use a legendary creature as your commander. This all happened in the late 90s/early 2000s. in 2011 WotC officially launched the first commander products (five preconstructed decks) and WotC named it Commander to be legally safe as there were some legal questions with Elder Dragon Highlander (there was another similar but different format called Elder Legend Dragon Wars created in 1996) and it became an officially supported format by WotC. WotC owning the format is a strange way of phrasing it, but they do support it from product launches and commander specific cards, but it is the only format that is maintained by an outside group, the Commander Rules Committee.

@Zumteifl 11 месяцев назад

Love Gaurav's idea of only be able to have one of those fast manas available. Perhaps Cedh could do it's own thing, but for casual, love it.

@MrAstarothien 11 месяцев назад

And that's fine as a house rule in ur playgroup. I'm not for imposing it on everyone.

@Connie-gq1xs Год назад

LOVE this format!! I love the casual discussion/podcast style episode, can't wait to hopefully get more episodes like this!!

@jstrobel3620 Год назад

I actually quite like Rachel’s idea for Tiers of banlists. Like yeah, it would be complicated, but it would help the average playgroup pick decks for power levels. Right now I still hear “what’s the power level of your deck” and people answering either on a 1-10 scale or with how much mana they need roughly to win the game. Having a tiered ban list would actually help that discussion I think. Maybe make for more balanced gameplay overall.

@runcmd1419 11 месяцев назад

A power level 7 banlist would be welcome, Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Cradle, Samctum, Extortionist, Rhystic Study, etc etc

@nathanw4692 11 месяцев назад

I think you just have 2 tiers, cEDH and Casual. Theres a pile of cards that just can't be played "fairly", and don't fit at a casual table. Theres also a few cards like sol ring most of the community, and most game designers agree do not make individual games better. Lets go, lets do it,.. like yesterday.

@cpnfeathersword0409 11 месяцев назад

I really liked Gaurav's option at the end there. Have a very small restricted list of 5 cards (Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, Jeweled Lotus) - and you're only allowed one of those cards in your deck. This way nothing gets fully banned, all the precons that people buy are still playable, and the problem of fast mana in the format is greatly diminished. Nice!

@nunodasilva5449 11 месяцев назад

well, grim monolith costs 2 to play and 4 to untap. to take a good advantage of it, you need to play something with untap or flicker.

@brianjones3597 Год назад

“Everyone starts with a sol ring” just makes dockside extortionist even more broken.

@DuxBellorum13 Год назад

... nobody tell him about the new bat

@serafimb2319 Год назад

@@DuxBellorum13what set?

@poltergeistskateteam Год назад

@@serafimb2319 lord of the rings

@ondrejbronec837 Год назад

@@DuxBellorum13 I am very confused. What card?

@DuxBellorum13 Год назад

@@ondrejbronec837 Mirkwood Bats

@erikohman2294 Год назад

Mana vault is way different. Unless you have synergies, early mana vault is pretty much early dark ritual.

@shadowm831 Год назад

Wow banning sol ring would be horrible, all non-green decks would be weakened forcing most decks to go down the treasure hole (dockside etc...) I think I keep playing it even if it was banned and if everyone would say you can't play it then I think be done with magic and most people I have talk to would leave too.

@soren1803 Год назад

Green decks can play ring too, bad argument

@Feelosopher__ Год назад

@@soren1803 Yes, but other colors don't have the ramp options that green does. Taking away Sol Ring and other fast mana leaves more room for green to run away with ramp in a game. Same with treasures. If you ban treasures and and fast mana, you take away one of green's good ramp options, but you take away the other color's best ramp options.

@soren1803 Год назад

@@Feelosopher__ none of greens ramp comes close to being as generically good as sol ring or mana crypt. Dorks are more vulnerable, land ramp is slower.

@danielzitnik4247 Год назад

You're wrong about the percentages. Swords to Plowshares is in 60% of decks that it's legal in. Decks that are non-white don't count against its percentage.

@joeferreti9442 11 месяцев назад

Precons are not a problem, those are usually allowed to continue play the banned cards as long as the deck is unchanged. WotC did that often with the Challenger Deck precons.

@QuantillusVarus Год назад

My playgroup has banned Sol Ring/fast mana and have been doing so for a couple months now. Our games are WAY better. More interaction, fewer arch enemy games, less "groan" moments etc. The argument I mostly put forward is that of the "sol ring lottery", where people mostly only have access to sol ring and not other fast mana, so whoever ends up getting an early sol ring is way ahead (it's not often that 2 people have sol ring starts). Sometimes it depends WHAT you're doing with sol ring, but most of the time it's just someone playing extremely powerful cards way earlier than people have answers (don't forget that it's every turn you're 2 turns ahead, not just once).

@zerorequiem42 Год назад

Sol ring is good ramp, but it's still just ramp. Get an extra land into play, you are ahead of those that didn't happen to draw it.

@QuantillusVarus Год назад

@@zerorequiem42 you can only play one land per turn. By playing one land and a sol ring you’re 2 turns ahead on mana. You can literally win the game on turn 2 or 3 in commander with a sol ring on turn 1.

@Hemlocker Год назад

I kinda like Gurav's idea of only being allowed to pick one out of the fast mana rocks (as long as they reprinted the others enough to make them much more accessible!)

@delo1569 11 месяцев назад

agreed, this is a great idea

@thedanath Год назад

That sol ring has been printed every year in basically every commander deck and its still a 2 dollar card amazes me.

@MMusic91 Год назад

had to look this up - that's actually bonkers

@flame7407 Год назад

all i need to do take out sol ring put in summer bloom and turn 1 if i have mox turn 1 summer bloom put 3 lands form my hand on to the battle field dont change anything

@shibbyxdiex Год назад

@@flame7407 that's fairy tale land. the amount u need to have right in ur example vs just having sol ring is drastically different.

@kl3r1k3r-7 Год назад

in europe you get it for 0,30 € :P

@BlueGriffin20 Год назад

@flame tH3SH is right. You are saying you have mox, summer bloom, and four lands in hand out of the 8 you start off with. Leaving you with 2 + commander to play with. Very easy to burn out of cards.

@weirdmusicmixmaster Год назад

i think the rule style that was from canadian highlander is probably the best version of this, make a list of problematic or extremely powerful cards and set the limit, it doesnt allow you to lie and you can pick your high power pet cards and prioritize your style of play.

@machewe1158 Год назад

Maybe they should have one of the live events host a "no sol ring" clause to get some actual player feedback, let ppl decide for themselves that they prefer not to have it and it wont be as big of a deal. Have lands available to ppl incase they forget or another generic mana rock.

@DaveTheNoob Год назад

The issue with Sol ring is the issue of EDH in general and that's efficiency creep. Its not that getting the ring early is an issue if you cast a vanilla X/X. The issue is the accessibility to very powerful spells on turns before opponents can effectively respond. There is also a theoretical arms race. Many players play sol ring simply because of how common it is.

@Hemlocker Год назад

It's not an arms race if it's a single card. It would be an arms race if the existence of Sol Ring was pushing playgroups to constantly one-up each other with more and more fast mana. Which I don't think happens often, and whenever it does then that playgroup should probably just turn into a CEDH group anyway.

@kunochijenkins5530 Год назад

As someone who just cant keep up with all the new Magic products, i really really enjoyed this kind op episode! Pls make more

@DaveTheNoob Год назад

This just became one of my fav. formats for mtg discussion. Well thoughtout piece and very well articulated points! Cant wait for ep2.

@thtb Год назад

Shouldn't a discussion not hit every single fallacy? Lets keep it at calling it a podcast

@OmegaMTG Год назад

32:45 An interesting mulligan idea I've come across lately is you get your free mulligan. If that's not good enough you get any 3 basic, shuffle your deck, draw 4 more and go with it.

@fiber1881 Год назад

I think most of the decks that show up on EDHrec not running Sol Ring are due to house bans. I know that is the case for my lists. That card is an auto-include even in decks that have no colorless mana in the mana cost of commanders.

@supranova7594 Год назад

Exactly! who cares if sol ring doesn't help cast a commander whose cost is 3 different pips; it literally helps cast the other 98 cards in the deck 1-2 turns early. Including usually 1 of the 4 signets or 3 talisman colored rocks that help cast the commander. Land, sol ring, any Signet; I have a t2 animar, xur, or whoever potentially if I have a second land. We banned sol ring before jeweled lotus came out due to the amount of games we saw a t2 4-5 mana commander hitting the field

@TheCalamity13 Год назад

I really like the idea of having a small list of fast mana cards that you can only have one of.

@marnixw8724 Год назад

oh yeah they should do that in vintage

@malcolmsimpson3396 Год назад

Brilliant solution

@shadowtrench Год назад

I always associated Commander with high cost janky spells you don't normally get to play with in competitive formats. Fast ramp is a way to actually get to play those spells in a reasonable time frame. Also considering the multiplayer aspect. Fast mana and ramp typically gets games moving quicker. I'd rather get multiple games in a sitting than have a single long match drawn out without fast mana. Granted we don't typically play expensive fast-mana cards and rarely is anyone playing a combo decks in our playgroup.

@dkres82 11 месяцев назад

It’s also really important to keep up with Green decks.

@jadegrace1312 10 месяцев назад

@@dkres82 Idk about that tbh. Green decks really like sol ring too cause it lets them play more ramp quickly. Helps spiral out of control.

@KennethIHansen 11 месяцев назад

The problem that IMO is starting to emerge in commander is, that the line between EDH & cEDH is starting to get so thin, and if sol ring had to go, the only logical move from the RC, would be to follow the oathbreakers fast mana rock example

@acdvfb 11 месяцев назад

I'd like to see the stats for decks made since Arcane Signet was created. I wonder if Arcane Signet would topple Sol Ring since players have been cutting it for various reasons over the last few years... So, interestingly going to the EDHREC Top Cards page it presets to past two years, so these numbers do reflect contemporary deck building.

@adamdouce353 Год назад

The difference between dockside and mana crypt is that dockside came in a commander product

@Mich3linM4n Год назад

Josh sort of brushed it aside but I'd be really interested to see Commander have a points list similar to Canadian Highlander. You're not banning cards that people have spent their money on but you are creating new deck building choices because now you have to consider if Sol Ring is more valuable to your deck than another powerful card.

@B-Randall 11 месяцев назад

Consider having an episode discussing Commander Tax at +2 generic per previous cast count! I’ve always thought it should be plus 1 hybrid color identity per cast. So the second time you cast your commander it will cost it’s regular casting cost plus one additional mana within its Color Identity. I think it makes it less taxing than 2 generic, while not just simply making it 1 generic instead. But I also like Voltron commanders so I might just have a bias lol!

@Wildonion1 Год назад

I'm looking forward to seeing more of these! Discussing banned cards, "should" be banned cards, hybrid mana, and the like will make for great thought pieces. Looking forward to the next Fact or Fiction!

@hanschristopherson8056 Год назад

Glad you guys made this video, I think sol ring is taken for granted and is thought about as a causal card because it’s cheap

@MageKirby Год назад

As a casual magic fan that just plays draft once in a while on fridays and pools those cards together into a janky commander deck, sol ring is one of the neatest and cheapest bandaid to the fact that not only do I not own any of the other expensive mana artifacts like mana crypt, but also the fact that I don't own any of the expensive dual lands either. I'm glad the most powerful card in my deck is a 2 dollar ramp that enables all of my decks is something I'm happy about this format.

@captianbacon 11 месяцев назад

In my prosper tomebound deck (which is my strongest deck) I've had a t2/3 prosper out semi regularly and this deck is a strong deck that does win alot but it doesn't do so in a way that feels like the games over because my game doesn't start till prosper starts booking then I start ramping and shooting threats building a horde of treasure. But my entire deck is built to only really cast the none ramp spells if he's in play because of the synergies.

@faunatique5110 Год назад

Why would you ban it? Sol ring is a great affordable way for beginners especially, to taste this game's real core power play of it's long living fundaments. Its definitely not impacting the board too bad or more than other staple ramp spells. I never have a problem with someone personally for playing it in turn 1

@quelanathecrow Год назад

Gaurav's idea for a category of fast mana cards you can only have one of is so good!! Also I liked Rachel's idea of tiers, maybe just as informal guidelines it could be helpful to have a shared baseline for what the power levels of certain cards are! Thanks for a really interesting episode ^.^

@tysonperna8844 Год назад

What if Sol Ring and the other fast mana (some definition like mana rocks which tap for more mana than their MV) had a Serra Avenger rule, "You can’t cast this spell during your first, second, or third turns of the game."

@delo1569 11 месяцев назад

These long form discussions with the implications of a ban or how it would affect gameplay are great. Please do more! Although, the subtitle (fact or fiction) is terrible - maybe something deck related like "does it resolve?" or clever alliteration like "sell or sleeve" as an idea. Unsure where this series is going...

@TheRedKnightOfPain Год назад

A way that will mitigate fast mana, and treasures by extention, is the proliferatuon of manavalue based wraths or hate cards. I bring up treasures too because in an EDHRec cast they mentioned that treasures have kinda also become an issue too. I know i have a bias in that i play slightly more stacksy cards to hobble my opponents, cause i avoid buying singles and my decks run slower because of it, abd i lean way harder into flavor than i probably should.

@justinhuber5497 Год назад

Just gotta say, I’m brand new to magic and I love starting one of these videos just because the opening song and “you are now in the command zone”

@jimbojones2211 Год назад

I really wanna know who that voice is. Also at the end of the episode where there the line "Greetings humans." And then laughter. It's so.... like weird out of context. I don't question it at this point.

@mitchellbruderlin8621 Год назад

@@jimbojones2211 I think that is ashleen rose

@grantmurdock7385 Год назад

I can't help but appreciate that new Sol Ring art so seamlessly becomes OG Sol Ring in that intro.

@Leeheros1 Год назад

Grav: “well I think….” Josh: “no.” Lol poor Grav getting shut down literally the whole episode 😂

@DarcyBits Год назад

During this discussion the idea of a 'tap list' popped into my head. It'd cause some confusion for a while, but, what if there was a list of cards that in the format enter tapped? Having a rule like that for 1 card would be very weird, but having a list, like a ban-list, which adds a line of text to certain cards could maybe be interesting.

@m.r.r.2636 Год назад

Like you said; it's confusing with house rules for specific cards. If it doesn't appear on the card, it is very very difficult to implement as a house rule. You would generally be better off by WotC releasing a Commander booster product with a replacement Sol Ring card at common that also appears in the... is it called the promo-slot? The one usually reserved for marketing, tokens and basic lands. Flood the market with a Sol Ring replacement, then the Rules Committee banning all fast-mana would be a possible solution, but a rather significant cooperative piece of work between the Rules Committee and WotC - at the probable loss for WotC.

@colexian 11 месяцев назад

Put treasures in tapped. Would fix so many cards.

@FiendFyreNyx Год назад

To add to JLK's idea of a new rule, maybe fast mana pieces like sol ring cant be tapped for mana on the turn that they are played. so what if fast mana tap abilities have a form of summoning sickness. it would get rid of the "land to sol ring to arcane signet" turn 1 and not let someone make this huge jump over the rest of the table.

@dandbslane Год назад

I really appreciated this conversation. I would appreciate a similar conversation on free counterspells and the impact they have on the format.

@Shane16784 Год назад

Finally! More debate shows for me to watch

@Flyboy245 Год назад

21:03 I’m glad this was referenced because I was going to mention it myself. A turn 1 sol ring will more than likely result in you losing the game, not winning

@Highstar7331 10 месяцев назад

It still sucks that the reason why it isn't broken (but still OP) is that it forces players to dogpile the sol ring player.

@Flyboy245 10 месяцев назад

@@Highstar7331 it’s hard not to, given that it effectively puts you 2 turns ahead

@roydenhunt Год назад

Great topic for discussion. In my play group we have started taking out sol ring in some decks, though we still have it in some decks. Because you want that extra power sometimes. I do think 90% of the time if it's taken out it's just replaced with another ramp piece. Also fun in house rules are always worth trying out. If the sol ring starts in the command zone, maybe you choose if you draw or play sol ring on the turn. Also my play group has a loose muligan rule, like within reason, but we don't want to have a player that basically watches the game. Idea for a name for the episode, could these rules be fun to play with. Fact or fiction.

@theartofgoblintrash Год назад

I really enjoy this new show. I personally don't think sol should be banned because artifact destruction exists. Don't want to see a sol ring on the board just destroy it. I personally don't want to see cards that say commander on it anywhere. I feel that cards designed specifically for the format are always going to lead to deck building uniformity. I hope they do an episode on commander specific cards in the future.

@zackshick9310 Год назад

I loved Guravs idea about the pseudo restricted rule where you only get 1 piece of fast mana. Or the one where fast mana costs more during the first few turns. I think maybe doing both would really take care of most of the issues discussed. I hope they take those to the CAG!

@levizorius8882 Год назад

So nice to watch an episode that isn’t a set or deck review!

@BiJay33 Год назад

When they talked about a separate cEDH ban list and how more extensive it would be, they didn't consider how much stuff wouldn't be on the list that currently is, like Coalition Victory or Biorythm. How much they actually add to the list depends on how powerful they want the format to be. Currently there's a lot of variety in the cEDH lists, there wouldn't be a need for more much bannings.

@VictorTheLegend Год назад

I think the tierlist ban is the best option, and it's not really complex because most people build their deck on the internet anyway, with plenty of access to information. The most balanced games I know are pokemon, who implements tier list (and if a pokemon is dominating a tier it's never banned, just promoted), and penny dreadfull (a mtg format where the banlist indirectly depends on which cards were champions of the previous season, because their price go up). Also, in Brazil we have a lot of sidestep formats like Commander 50 (your deck should cost mostly 50 dollars, including commander) or Commander 100 (your deck can cost up to 100 dollars, excluding commander), which makes the decks always about the same power-level, without banning anything or limiting synergies. Of course, since it's not a global format, the fact a strategy is under a price point and still abusable still comes into play, since the success of a strategy don't swing prices a lot (like in standard or modern). But I believe that part of any format is trying to figure out the best strategy and a perfectly balanced format will never exist. So these are nice solutions.

@DSP1927 Год назад

Perhaps Wheeler got it right with Canadian Highlander - assign points to certain cards, and decks are allowed a maximum number of points...

@JCKBalu 11 месяцев назад

Our Local Banlist is with: Smothering Tithe, Ancient Tomb, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Rhystic Study, because all of them are so powerful that u have to play them in every single deck and thats boring.

@LuckyReden 11 месяцев назад

Imagine if the rules committee announced “In 2030 Sol Ring will no longer be legal in commander” I think that would do ultimately very little harm and would be the best way to introduce the ban. Give a ton of time for people to be ready for the transition and wizards to adjust. My concern, however, is that wizards would just want to fill that voids with jeweled-lotus-like cards in every major commander product.

@YawgmothWasRight Год назад

On the "banning Mana Crypt would makes many people lose hundreds of dollars", that's not something that should be taken into account when thinking of bans. Nearly all the cards that get banned, in any format, are expensive. It's one of the aspects of playing a card game, sometimes your collection's value goes up, sometimes it goes down.

@arcee_youtube Год назад

But it's just THE quintessential EDH card, I mean heck your logo is inspired by it... Also I love the universes beyond alt arts~♡

@nasayatcg Год назад

I don't run Sol Ring in my Animar deck. I want Animar out as early as possible, and I do not run any mana rocks in the deck. So Sol Ring would be a distraction to that goal.

@shishsquared Год назад

This was absolutely addressed, but I honestly love sol ring. When I first got into magic I wasnt into any specific format, I was just throwing in 4 of any card I could find into a 60 card deck. Looking back they were probably Pioneer or Legacy legal. I got into Commander because all my roommates did, and it became the chosen format of the house. One of my friends told me it had one of the shortest ban lists in magic, and that appealed to me. When I made my first commander deck, I was told to include sol ring, arcane signet, commander's sphere, terramorphic expanse, solemn simulacrum, and evolving wilds. I've never played or played with super high power decks, although as I've gotten better at deck building the power levels have increased. But a turn 1 sol ring was never salt inducing, and the turn 1 sol ring arcane signet became known as the rare "bursting with nuts" play, it only appeared maybe one game out of a hundred, and it was always celebrated. I would be very sad if sol ring is banned, because its a fun card to play, most decks and players don't go crazy with it, and I've always seen Commander as the format to play these crazy cards

@prinnyEXE Год назад

yall should play a special game of extra turns that is comander but with yalls crazy rules

@nfortin24 Год назад

Did I miss something? Is there a reason why Josh and Jimmy like never do episodes together anymore?

@Helixcards Год назад

They addressed it a while back. There is nothing going on. People are busy, which is why they hired other hosts.

@voltcorp Год назад

they just did the game knights live together. maybe they're just allowing the rest of the crew to show up more.

@chadsamuels6512 Год назад

Jimmy also has a wife and a newborn I believe. His focus should be elsewhere, his family. Josh is relatively quiet on his personal life and that's fine but he could have similar situations to. I'm sure managing the command Zone is very time-intensive

@greywolf7577 5 месяцев назад

I think it was the Lost Caverns of Ixalan video where Josh says that he sometimes has magic cards delivered to the office to hide from his girlfriend how much money he is spending on Magic cards. So that would suggest he is living with a girlfriend.@@chadsamuels6512

@IgorDellaPietra 11 месяцев назад

just a thought: you could allow a commander artifact (working like partner) that has to be an artifact with a mana ability. it's in the command zone and can be cast like the commander, including the tax. i think that would lead to less mana artifacts for most people because the availability for the best one is always there, and even if someone plays a mana crypt turn 1, you won't be a whole lot behind with a 2$ sol ring.

@Nigrantis Год назад

My own play group is using a special rule for the first person going first advantage, basically, we do. - At the beginning of your first turn's pre-combat main phase, look at the top X cards of your library, you may put 1 of them at the bottom of your library and put the rest on top in any order where X is the number of players who played before you. A pure scry X was too broken so this seemed more fitting. It's still too strong for certain decks (Yuriko for exemple) but it's better than keeping a raw advantage for others. Also, we banned Sol ring and all Mana positive mana rocks (Mana crypt/Jeweled Lotus/Mana vault) but we keep the moxen.

@NicolasandDad Год назад

Sol Ring adds fun. Nothing more fun than knowing who the threat is… makes all turns fun… if someone sol rings into signet. You know who to attack and target. It makes T2 exciting… T2 without is not exciting… also… imagine 3 players get a T1 creature… will there be salt if they all attack 1 player… yes they would. It makes almost all games better unless you have a bad attitude. Because if you walk around with a hammer, you’ll see a lot of nails. The people who want it banned are looking for reasons to ban it…

@NicolasandDad Год назад

I also think Jeweled lotus is unplayable… I have one I could play in Krenko because it’s a T1 krenko… but I’d be willing to be in almost every game he gets killed or board gets wiped and it’s a 100% loss… can’t cast a T6 krenko and win… and yes I’ve thought of having it because I run all the welders for commander tax… but there are just better cards

@NicolasandDad Год назад

Jewled lotus is in my Freyalise deck… I’ve lost more games than I’ve won with a T2 Freyalise that pluses to make a dork

@captaindb4998 Год назад

I like the 'starting Sol Ring' idea. We do similar when we Planechase, putting a Fractured Powerstone and Ichor Elixor on everyones starting board.

@chibichanga1849 Год назад

At that point, are we still making decks that are 98 cards + sol ring? or 99 cards with the sol ring emblem? If everyone starts with Sol Ring in play, it feels like we may as well just ban it. I guess the emblem idea gets around the precon legality and format icon issue. Still feels very clunky to me.

@dhantefranklin336 Год назад

That's a terrible idea.

@danielharper9 Год назад

My play group's mulligan: Draw 10, put 3 to the bottom, only mulligan if 2 or fewer land/non-land cards (have to show hand of 10 to mulligan). It avoids mana screwed/flood, we almost never have a mulligan (~5 in 6 months for near weekly play), and we start the game faster because we aren't waiting for someone to mulligan multiple times. Play group's house rule: Cyclonic Rift's overload is sorcery speed only (we had 7/8 game decided by it over 2 months, we are down to maybe 1/4 games now)

@brynnbernstein1382 11 месяцев назад

I kind of like the point-buy system in canadian highlander. It means that people that pull one-of crazy cards like a mana crypt can use it, but people who have a ton of money to spend can't put every one of them on the list. I do think canadian highlander's list is a little short, but it gives each pod way more knobs to fiddle with. I could also go for a tiered system, but then again I'm used to competitive pokemon. Making the tiers would be ridiculous, but you could start by shoving everything currently on the ban list, over a certain price, or used in over a certain percentage of valid decks in the ubers equivalent and then dropping them down if they're not used in ubers decks. Unfortunately tracking usage wouldn't be as responsive in commander, since way fewer commander decks are submitted to EDHrec than games of pokemon are played on smogon, but pods could still maintain an extra tiering list while waiting on the rules committee to hand down the commandments. They could do the tiering updates at those yearly ban things, presuming those stick around despite everyone being mad about them for different reasons.

@kulinfro830 Год назад

i often leave sol ring out if it's not flavorful in the deck. you sometimes get to play some much higher synergy cards if you leave out some staples. i don't think the ring needs to be banned, however.

@devlinclark5657 Год назад

I do the same, my bant blink deck is my strongest deck and hasnt had a sol ring in it for years because it isnt needed. I just wish people would treat it like most fast mana and save it for cedh or higher power games

@uniwolfacorn Год назад

What decks are you running that don’t want a free 1 mana ritual the turn you play it, and 2 extra mana every turn after? How many decks do you have that don’t want a potential 4 mana turn 2?

@JohnDoe-vc5qb Год назад

@@uniwolfacornyuriko literally doesn’t gain from having it in cus it doesn’t help you ninjutsu almost any creature.

@kulinfro830 Год назад

@@uniwolfacorn some of my enchantress builds or creature based decks get more value from one of those types of cards rather than the 2 colorless. plus sol ring is a lightning rod. players will target you for playing it early. is it very strong? yes. is it an auto include? no.

@uniwolfacorn Год назад

@@JohnDoe-vc5qb but Yuriko also runs big spells to hit the table, which sol ring helps you cast.

@Mwarrior1991 Год назад

To everyone excited by the idea of finding a new synergy card to put in your deck instead of sol ring: You can do that now.

@colexian 11 месяцев назад

Yeah but it puts you at a severe disadvantage as every other player at your table will be running it if you don't.

@noesunyoutuber7680 11 месяцев назад

@@colexianCommander is an inherently inconsistent format. You don't get turn 1 Sol Ring every time. Sol Ring enables really degenerate plays, but you don't _need_ it unless your deck is extraordinarily mana-hungry.

@joeferreti9442 11 месяцев назад

The problem with Sol Ring is not only because it's a must-play that goes into every deck. It's also overpowered (like a Mox or even better), and the player(s) who randomly draw into it early have an unfair advantage. Sol Ring is even that good that many decks play tutors to specifically tutor for Sol Ring. (Same goes for Mana Crypt by the way.) Arcane Signet on the other hand is an (almost) must-play (mono-colored decks don't need it and it doesn't work for colorless decks), BUT Arcane Signet is borderline balanced in a vaccuum (it's very very good but a 2 mana manarock that makes 1 mana is ok, although I'd wish it would come into play tapped at least in the first few rounds) AND it fulfills the function that it was designed for: very good mana fixing and ramp for Brawl and Commander decks and therefore it deserves to be the only must-play (well besides Command Tower). Arcane Signet does a lot less harm than Sol Ring!

@brunogarcez6128 Год назад

The rule where everyone starts with Sol Ring already on the table could be implemented BUT the starting player first land MUST enter tapped (whatever it is) and the other players can play with their first land untapped (if it's a land that enters untapped) I would implement it like that because then the first player could start with something like Arcane Signet + Mana Dork but the other opponents could use the land that entered untapped to make a 3 mana play, it's a rule that speeds up the pod also keeping in check whoever started first SO they don't just sprint ahead from everyone else.

@aclevername7613 Год назад

Took sol ring out of all my decks ages ago and never regretted it. Does it put me at a hindrance with a person who does and gets it out? Sure but games are more fun and interesting and just better without sol ring or mana crypt hitting the table.

@Novenae_CCG Год назад

I'm in the same process. I just refuse to put Sol Rings in my decks now.

@valariecarlone2059 Год назад

Same, unless specifically on theme, I have sol ring in like 5% of my decks.

@WeirdPhilosophy Год назад

I really loved the Ideas of Guarav in this Episode. It might seem odd at first but everyone starting the game with a sole-ring on the board really might be a good solution. As mentioned, it is already the staple of the format so it isn't far-fetched at all. And nobody is going to be making him/herself the archenemy on turn 1. It would've have the sideeffekt of speeding up every game of commander, which is probably a plus for some and a minus for others. Same goes for the Idea of allowing people only one of the powerfull Mana-Artifacts (Sol-Ring, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Jeweled Lotus). Those who invested a lot of money can still play it but the budget/precon player isn't in a huge disadventage cause he can play a powerfull 2$ Sol-Ring aswell.

@raedien Год назад

This only increases how good going first is.

@weirdmusicmixmaster Год назад

theres also a conversation about the speed of commander games and im on the side that good ramp helps you get more games in unless youre specifically rule 0ing into a durdly extra casual game

@BstFrmThEst 11 месяцев назад

Modules! I love the modules idea while still using the banlist. It would be confusing at first but they could also put in a reminder card with every precon and extensive rules will be all over the internet where you could just google “What’s in module B for EDH”. That would make the rule0 convo way easier because instead of “my deck is a 7”, you could say your deck is in module B. S- cEDH decks using anything. A- High power with no restriction but not quite cEDH. B- Powerful but only can have 1 fast mana (sub 2MV) and 1-2 tutors (sub 2MV) outside of standard land ramp. C- Same as B but NO fast mana and NO sub 2MV tutors. D- Same as C but infinite combos must be 3+ cards. E- Precon. F- Budget decks and battlecruiser

@theeightbithero Год назад

The problem is that the empty slot in your decks left by soul ring will need to be filled often with another form of mana rock or ramp. I frankly think that just makes decks a little more expensive than they need to be.

@abouttime837 Год назад

you know how sol ring is still 2 dollars? they can reprint other ramp.

@DevouringKing Год назад

i play without manarocks or ramp. so i would prefer the Ban of sol ring.

@LadyTsunade777 Год назад

So then just reprint other ramp and rocks? Sol Ring is only so cheap because it's been put into every precon.

@UranTCG Год назад

Most 2 mana rocks are cheaper than Sol Ring?

@theeightbithero Год назад

@@LadyTsunade777 already printed in precons.

@andrews3156 Год назад

If Sol Ring got Banned then many precons would have an illegal card in there. that would be rough for newer players to have to worry about replacing a card in a precon deck. I don't see it being banned anytime soon.

@greywolf7577 5 месяцев назад

The easy solution to that is to say "we will be banning Sol Ring in five years" and give Wizards time to phase it out of the precon decks.

@randalljohnson6787 Год назад

Do you have any idea how many times I've tried to order from Card Kingdom and they're missing 50%+ of the cards I need for a deck, and I go somewhere else? It's a LOT.

@trevincraig9341 Год назад

What about an errata on Sol Ring to make it only tap for one colorless mana? It would still be very good, but not completely busted to the point that it ruins games. Ideally this would be accompanied by a Mana Crypt ban.

@GuardDogEvents Год назад

I dont think sol ring should be banned. It's both iconic and the only high power fast mana card EVERYONE has universal access too If you do ban sol ring: vault, crypt, Lid, Jewled lotus, arcane signet also need to be banned to reduce the amount of fast mana in the format

@atk9989 Год назад

at that point you might as well ban all ramp if you're going to ban arcane signet of all cards, otherwise green just wins by out ramping and drawing everyone and overrunning the board. plus vault, crypt, and LID rarely ever see play outside of cEDH i run crypt in 2 of my 30+ non cEDH decks, 1 being mono white Angels because they need alot of mana, and Chulane which i built to be higher power casual. vault is in either cEDH or artifact focused decks, and LID i have only seen in cEDH. and at my LGS its extremely rare for me to see those 3 outside the cEDH pods. and Jewled lotus doesnt go in every deck i have plenty of decks that dont run it, my 5 color decks dont, 4 color doesnt, and a good number of the 2-3 color decks dont either.

@mtgtv1384 11 месяцев назад

commander is an eternal format that supports powerful cards, and attracts alot of older players because theyre able to play with cards that invoke nostalgia. sol ring is in every deck, essentially, although it is not oppressive in any way shape or form. in one versus one formats, things are different. in a four player format, there are three other players that can keep in check a player that gets off to a quick start and immediately becomes the arch enemy. every player at the table has a sol ring in the deck, and will play a turn one sol ring just as often as anyone they play against. commander is a fan-created format. if a group of players want to ADD to the ban list, it should be rule zero’ed in your group. if it is ON the ban list, its going to change the up-and-coming cEDH tournament scene, and those tournaments cant be rule zero-ed. just stop it with adding to the banned list, unless there’s a card that is oppressive and impossible to interact with.

@gizmogadgetgeek1191 Год назад

I don’t necessarily think fast mana is a huge problem, but I like the power level discussion. One problem with this game we all love, is it’s complicated to begin with on a good day. A possible level restriction ban/list could help define power levels, which have always been hard to quantify. What you think is a power level 6 someone else thinks is a 7 or maybe a 5. So if not a ban, maybe a list. For instance, at power levels 1-5 these cards are restricted, levels 5-6 these are restricted, so on and so forth. Giving everyone the same type of cards to work with. Someone who cracks a mana crypt wants to throw it in their pre-con, is that deck still a power level 5-6? Although cards don’t define level, they do push power levels. Not sure, maybe it’s to complicated, just ramblings of a madman.

@Aveeguides 10 месяцев назад

I like your idea! I had never thought of that. I think having a set of optional rules playgroups could follow, like level card restrictions, is a great way to address power creep problems.

@FiendFyreNyx Год назад

Its odd sometimes with sol ring. Ive had many games where ive never drawn my sol ring that i have in the deck. Even if my playgroup and i are doing our modified games where we start with 15 to 20 life, and a couple basic lands on the battlefield. (we play on our 30 min lunch breaks). Ive found that in my playgroup, sol ring doesnt give that much of a boost because of our modified format and even in our full games, it tends to show up as more of a fix to our mana. For me, cards like sol ring, arcane signet, and other low cost mana rocks, limit the unique cards i want to put in the deck. like if i find that my mana isnt a problem and that sol ring is just taking up a slot for me to use my mana more efficiently with a big creature or spell or something that can really change the tide of my game, im not going to use it.

@jamesheller5242 Год назад

As much as I enjoy Jimmy and Josh, if the Command Zone is basically turning into the Rachel Weeks show, I'm fine with that

@darkskinnedtraveler Год назад

I have a theory that Jimmy and Josh don’t get along anymore…

@jamesheller5242 Год назад

@@darkskinnedtravelerI have a theory that Jimmy being a young Dad doesn't have nearly as much time as he used to 🤷

@markc6571 Год назад

I think Rachel is best addition to the show in a long time. She's fun to watch, and she's articulate with her takes. Rachel has an X factor. It's cool to see how she builds her decks for tight situations where she's backed into a corner and manages to turn the situation in her favour. She's not bad on the eyes either. 😅

@felipeguidolin1055 Год назад

@@jamesheller5242 no, that makes too much sense. We want drama, not logic!

@darkskinnedtraveler Год назад

@@jamesheller5242 sure, but when they are both on camera there seems to be a bit of animosity.

@sulakkalus Год назад

Fiction - it shows up ~8% of the time on turn 1, makes slow games speed up, and many commanders don’t even need it, especially all the recent 3 color commanders.

@valariecarlone2059 Год назад

For a single player it shows up ~7% of the time on turn 1, no mulligans. For one to show up for the entire table ~25% of the time on turn 1, no mulligans. Each player 1-92/99=0.070707... For the table 1-(92/99)^4=0.254220...

@sulakkalus Год назад

@@valariecarlone2059 if you’re talking about your starting 7, yes but for it to show up turn one you have to include the first drawn card of a deck of 99, so just a tiny percentage higher than 8.

@AporiaLester Год назад

With Sol Ring banned literally EVERYONE would be able to include 1 more card they are excited about to play, fitting to their deck, without having this bad feeling of "But now I dont have Sol Ring... but my opponents do... meh". Keeping Sol Ring unbanned means every player only truely chooses 99 cards for their deck instead of 100. Also, one of the dumbest arguments against that Ive ever heard was "You dont HAVE TO pick Sol Ring, you know? Its a choice" - yh, theres is no rule that forces me to pick Sol Ring, but cmon... rly? Thats like saying you dont HAVE TO breathe, you can choose to not breathe. And no, that doesn't mean breathing should be banned x) but Sol Ring should, yh

@SuperDeathclaws Год назад

No it won't it will just be replaced with the next best mana ramp

@Lorddegree1 5 месяцев назад

I think one of the problems I have with comparing Sol Ring and Mana Crypt in this context is that Mana Crypt *is* better than Sol Ring, to the extent that if Mana Crypt were printed as much as Sol Ring, I'd bet there would still be a good-sized price difference because on Turn 1, the difference between 0 and 1 is *huge* (and a 50/50 chance of losing 3 life during your own following upkeep is barely even worth talking about for how much value that gives). Like take the finances out of the equation and give every player the option to trade their Sol Ring for a Mana Crypt and you'd probably have no one object to it who knows even a little bit about the game. Banning Sol Ring shouldn't even begin to be discussed if you aren't going to ban all the 0 cost mana rocks first.

@stetsonclark8348 Год назад

If Sol Ring is banned strictly based on ramp and advantage, at what point is ramp in general banned or basic lands banned?

@LadyTsunade777 Год назад

Because all ramp goes mana positive that turn and all lands ignore the one-per-turn rule, like Sol Ring, right?

@SuperDeathclaws Год назад

@Suigen Yukiouji then we should ban the color green since it has so many ways to play more than one land per turn

@greywolf7577 5 месяцев назад

You could just ban a bunch of green cards to make sure they don't have too much ramp.@@SuperDeathclaws

@mufasafalldown8401 Год назад

It should be banned, along with most of the super fast mana. Get there and then we'll talk about Rhystic Study and Smothering Tithe and Dockside Extortionist etc etc.

@nanideckard 11 месяцев назад

We want agile and things to happen in the format. 4 people tables can get very slow and having some action in the form of mana helps a lot. If everyone is having it (due to its low price), there is no unfair or unbalancing in the format. Would we be having a different discussion if it was a 100$ card?

@willjackson5885 11 месяцев назад

How would you fix Arcane Signet? Enters tapped? Or make it like a Thriving land that has to choose a color?

@NovemberStreams Год назад

Banning ring is a bad move. There are a ton of artifacts that ramp people. Banning ring: 1. Makes for a slippery slope. What about Crypt, Mox Diamond, LED, Vault, Ancient Tomb, Jeweled Lotus? 2. Confuses new players. It's in a ton of precon decks. 3. Biases decks that want mana ramp towards green. 4. Makes colorless decks less viable.

@dannybuckles2070 Год назад

Comparing the one shot use of of Jeweled Lotus that can only cast your commander to the 2 extra mana every turn to cast whatever you want for the entire game is so dumb. Sol Ring should be banned, along with Crypt AND Vault. All three cards enable degenerate gameplay before you opponents even get to start playing the game if they don't open with it.

@TheFoxlover93 Год назад

I enjoyed hearing the discussion of price point to some degree. Like "Sol Ring is used cause it's cheap and everyone has access". I also liked the discussion of "Well if they reprinted XYZ into the ground then it would be the next thing to replace it" And I think that lies the problem; if you ban all fast mana (lets even say rituals for shits and giggles), you end up just making all of the 2 MV mana rocks skyrocket cause everyone wants those. If you banned Sol Ring then Arcane Signet just skyrockets as the best 2 MV mana rock instead because it adds mana. The problem doesn't become "we get rid of fast mana", we then also think of the butterfly effect of "so Sol Ring gets banned, whats the card(s) that replace it?" The topic of "Well when building a deck, do you like just automatically going to 97 cards (Sol Ring and Command Tower just being auto included)" and to a degree, I DO like that I don't have to think about it. For example in a non green, three color deck, I immediately know like 8-9 ramp cards (Sol Ring, 4 Signets, 3 talismans, Wayfayer's Bauble) are immediately in my thoughts. If I'm in a green deck, it immediately becomes anything that searches out land types first, then basics and Sol Ring. To some degree, it's really assuring to be like "I dont have to think about these cards and can focus on my synergy" as opposed to "man! Now I gotta find another piece of ramp that is nice to have" At the end of the day, should Sol Ring be banned...I don't think it NEEDS to be banned, but if it was I don't think it will make or break anything if it was banned. Sure, precons become illegal but who's buying old school precons anymore? And some of the old ones are way above MSRP this days anyway. I think if you ban Sol Ring, you ban all fast mana, not just Sol Ring though