I agree with you. I had a net-metering system installed and it cost me $30,000. I have had it 4 years and almost have it paid off. My power company buys back my excess power but pays a very small amount for it. On the positive side it has decreased my electric bill. On the negative side I have no backup power. If I had it to do over again I would go with batteries instead of grid-tied.
@@TKCL I think some of your detractors are missing your point. I didn't feel like you were trying to scare people away from solar but just giving your opinion that off-grid is better than grid-tied.
@@roytaylor4578 some people feel forced to defend it after spending so much. Others work in the industry and also feel compelled to defend it. There are a few rare places it actually pays to have a net metering system. Those are few and far between sadly as a lot of states and electrical companies are dropping any sort of profitable payback.
This sounds crazy! I am so glad I got net metering back in Dec. 2021. I am grandfathered in for a 1 to 1 till 2035. My 12 KW system was only 32K. With tax credits I've already saved over 5K
I was considering the same set up (6kw system for $26k, net metering 1:1) But its still a solar system dependent on the grid. The cost has an ROI that is only acquired in the next life.
An option that some of us here in California (highest electricity costs) are doing is getting grid-tie inverters with limiters: no County, no fees, no inspections. There are a bunch out there and most are NOT UL listed, however, companies like Signature Solar and others are selling some that are. Here is how it works: The inverter constantly monitors what your house is pulling from the grid and then (if sufficient solar is available) offsets down to around 5 to 10 Watts (not kilo watts, watts). So no back-feeding the grid a single Watt. This all happens automatically and any person with minimal skill can install one. So at my house in San Diego from around 7:00AM until around 6:00 PM (August), my meter shows my house consuming only around 5-10 watts at any time during those hours. As the sun goes down the inveters eventually turn off due to insufficient voltage from the panels. The next morning the cycle starts all over again. My bill went from around $350.0/month to around $47.0/month. Our system is "plug and play". No county. No fees. No inspections. We installed a window A/C as the panels support it and we only turn on the house FAU A/C a couple times a year. Our panels can not support the house FAU A/C but it does offset it several KiloWatts. Anyone can install a system like this. 2 x Inverters $700.00, 10 X 320 Watt panels $2,000.00, Wire $400.00, swithces, fueses, disconnects, ....$500.00 TOTAL SYSTEM COST $3,600.00 It has been working perfectly for 3 years now and took 2 days to install and it was our first time doing anything "Solar". It took one year for the system to pay for itself.
So if we switch to a EV it makes sense to only charge during the day when the panels are producing. This could work for folks who are home during the day. And place the hot water heater on a timer so it only charges during the day.
As an electrician, I always found it fun to correct a solar salesman's numbers because I have yet to find one that actually knows what he's talking about. Selling back to the grid to pay for a system is a pipe dream. If you are not keeping/storing the power you generate and using it yourself, you are wasting your money.
With these crazy rules that's exactly right. Some people can't do simple math. Knocking down a $200 month electric bill with a $50k system NEVER pays back. All equipment has a service life, plus there is additional costs.
Why export for 4 cents per kilowatt-hour when you can use it at your home and save 22 cents per kilowatt-hour? My area doesn’t have net metering so you have to export 4-5X more energy than you consume in order to break even. Total scam. I started a business specific to off-grid solar systems to help people!
Run a small generator for a couple of hours to recharge your LiFep04 after cloudy days if you have to, cheaper than the power bill. LiFep04 is the key. Best thing since microwave ovens.
@@TKCLSystems don't cost that much, it's getting cheaper and better by the day. The eternal electric bill is quickly going the way of the land line telephone.Ive seen systems that would cover all I need under $4,000. Including panels
@@gsp49 I just recently got serious about solar, and in the year that I have spent doing my due diligence I agree the tech has improved substantially. I can't quite cover my current usage for $4000, but doubling that figure would and the elimination of my current yearly usage bills it would pay for itself in right at 3yrs. Offgrid solar is the only way to go If someone is serious about doing solar period. So far it has been an interesting and fun adventure, almost makes me feel like a little kid again!
This was one of the best educational videos that I've seen on the topic. I saw your video on making an adjustable metal stand with hinges on top and I subscribed. Well I live in Indian River County two miles from the lagoon and 6 miles from the ocean. My wife and I have tried to prepare for our family in times of emergency and we loose power after a cat 2-3 storm for several days. Fortunately for my neighborhood and me, we are on the same sub grid that the local high school is on which doubles as an emergency shelter so that grid gets priority for service. So I have a genrac 8kw gasoline electrical start generator that I can plug into the service panel on the outside of my house at the transfer switch. I was disappointed as I thought since it has 220 volt at 30 amps outlet, I wanted to run my water heater but the breaker still trips. However it runs just about everything else I need, several window A/c s lights, fridge, fans, we have county water so no pump to power up. Last month I made the mistake of inviting a solar company to come over and talk. What a slick bunch of sales men and women. They lease the equipment to the customer around $100/month ,contract says 25 year lease. They own the equipment and repair and maintain it and its a " power sell back" type, not battery. My FPL power costs .21cents a kWh. pretty good I think. The problem reared it's nasty head when their "research" company called and said , Oh, we see you house is is a trust for your children. I knew exactly what that meant. if I died and the kids got the house and they somehow default on the lease, the solar company will lean the house but since its in a trust, they can't do that. What scumbags they are, take the house and property from my kids, "get out and don't come back"!!! So I learned all I could about battery backup and solar power. Instead of me building a DIY system, which I could easiy do, I opted for an ANKER portable system with a 200 watt panel that runs my fridge, microwave , lights, fans and one A/C unit. Its an entry level unit but its all there and done, easy peasy. My wife can use the built in handle and move it easily. Its clean, its quiet and charges up either from solar or grid or my gasoline generator. Every year I fill 5 five gallon cans with gasoline for the generator. Its thirsty and runs full bore no matter the load. This year I replaced the carb, plug, air filter , oil filter and starter relay and battery and hour meter. The Generic relay costs $48 so I went to Auto Zone and bought a $11 auto relay like ford used to use. runs and starts easily. I talked with the people at Anker who said I could add on to the system. I'm looking at Renege solar panels being mindful of voltage and current limits. This is a long answer, sorry. You are doing a lot of people a lot of good with your knowledge, thank you so much. Ted in Sebastian, Fl.
That's a topic I wish I had covered in this video, people have no idea the long term commitments they are making with the leases and or financing. Good luck selling your home, what if the next owners don't want your system? Or in your case the company wants your house, this is the kind of stuff that aggravates me to no end. I highly recommend you get a on demand water heater and a small propane tank. They are very efficient and use very little gas. They also use practically no power and work perfectly for a solar system.
@@TKCL One thing to consider with tankless gas water heaters is "min flow" spec. The Bosch I bought (pilot light) spec'ed 0.5 gpm min, but cuts off the flame at 1 gpm so must keep the hot water flow up to not get a long slug of cold water. I attribute to ~58 F ground temp here vs VT, the U.S. headquarters. BIL in N. Florida installed a Bosch (spin-spark ignition) and must keep the hot water flow near max (~3 gpm) for it to not turn off. ~72 F ground temperature there. Even worse in S. Florida and also in Summer.
taking a shop/critical items off grid sounds like the best option. I like how your food storage is completely off grid, i am in the same hurricane area as you and thats what i really want to do.
My food and water is my biggest priority to be ran by this. I'm there with my recent equipment purchase. Next additions just make life more comfortable and me to be able to run more things.
The Million dollar liability coverage for us was only required for a period of 2 weeks during the installation process. We were allowed to cancel it afterward. It’s because of the high voltage hook-up but once that is completed, the electric company said we didn’t need it anymore. The insur policy only cost a couple hundred bucks.
I have a friend that installed solar last year. No batteries and on the buy back/credit system to your bill. I asked what good it was if the power went out, you'd still be SOL without batteries for backup. His reply was that he wanted to get enough credit with the power company to run his central AC in the summer and that batteries would cost thousands extra. He has a gas furnace and HW heater. I don't know what he spent for his system, but to me it seemed totally worthless for the initial cash outlay and will never pay for itself. I don't know if he even made the insurance company aware of the installation and it's not my business to question his decisions. What you have done makes perfect sense to me and for far less cost. Your in-depth research into all your projects is fantastic and the way you pre-think your future use scenarios is totally impressive. I am sure you have given several viewers food for thought before they dive in to something! Keep it up young man 👍💜💜
I'm sure it's bothered some viewers, but people need to know the truth. I see so many buying ridiculous systems that will never pay back. There are some that it might pay back. The DIY and off grid setups have become affordable enough to justify.
Our neighbor got hit by one of those door-to-door guys and he added a huge array to the back of his home. It pays off about 90 bucks per month in the summer and less in the winter. He was not pleased and has a 30-year payback of over 90K for the system. Unless you go off the grid completely with a large battery bank then tying into the grid does little really. Great video. I will say that our smaller home at the beach has been doing pretty well on the system we put on the back of the roof because, we use a large batter bank, there are not trees in the back yard, and we have a lot of battery bank on the home in an air-conditioned space that is powered by the bank. We generally leave the home on battery power when we are not there and then switch it back to the grid when we go there but we have a timed transfer switch to turn off grid power at night which helps us save.
Our local news statio s have discussed some of these problems. They showed it never pays back and they didnt even cover a lot of the items you mentioned. You ignored that they can come out and turn it off whenever they want because they have control. They know exactly what you use. Thanks for this. Very informative.
Hello, they can turn off or reduce your system at any time by varying the frequency. They are there to sell you power not you sell them power. Just go off grid where you can and save where you can. Take care M
I just moved my solar system out of my truck and into my off grid hime🤦♀️I also moved the solar panels and now they are pointed right at me. I have not felt myself lately and you just pointed out to me why. I will definitely be moving things again. And I’m sharing this video with my friend. Grateful for the demonstration 🙏🕊️
Been binging your vids. Very impressed by your level of detail and dedication you put in to your projects. It's not much, but you've got one more subscriber. And a fellow rural North Floridian. Keep the vids comin. Hope the channel and family are doing well!
Very good video and thanks for telling the truth. It's not what it's cracked up to be. That's the reason i didnt' do net metering i built my system offgrid and connected it to a critical loads panel with a hybrid inverter. When the sun is up my system will tend to batteries, power critical loads and if the sun is not enough it will pull from grid what it needs as a supplement and at night will switch to batteries until a preset level then switch to grid if necessary. I saved a pretty good amount doing it that way and i don't have to deal with the power company.
It's best to do your homework. The most economical system for me is a grid tied system. That's because of many reasons: 1. National Grid rates are some of the highest in the country 2. I am in a city with mostly underground wiring. I lose power on average about 1 or 2 hours per year. That's right PER YEAR. Wen I do I rig up my camping inverter to a Lipo battery that can get me through the night. 3. In the long run, solar panels and inverters have 25 year warrantee and longer life. Lipo batteries degrade over time, they'll need to be replaced in 5 years. Not to mention they are more expensive than additional panels. 4. I oversized my system by 20% based on use. I figured I was really only paying for the 3 additional panels and inverters. There really wasn't much of an increase to install those panels. I essentially maxed out my roof space. I'd rather be in a situation where I have excess credits and install a mini split, than have them come back out and pay for more panels and installation cost. 5. Given the 30% tax credit, and state tax credit and other incentives, my system will pay for itself in 6 years. I paid some upfront costs out of pocket and took out a 5 ear loan, so in 5 years I will essentially have a $7/mo electric bill. I understand every situation is different, but the key really is to take advantage of the tax incentives.
You're the only large system user I've heard mention cleaning the panels. It makes a pretty big difference when your panels are dusty or algae covered. It can easily make the difference in whether the batteries get fully charged or only 85% charged on a good sunny day. It makes mounting far less practical.
Yeah I can't believe people don't realize how important that is. Cleaning is a normal part of these systems. I easily see a 5-8 percent increase in output after a cleaning off of a thin layer of pollen. This is a huge reason to ground mount. I clean weekly
@@TKCL "Weekly". Underrated and important. I know they are devising a new method using static to keep dust off the panels on lunar modules, it's a whole new chore to drag the ladder out and squeegee the roof. All that engineering and we'll still need to jury rig our own windshield wipers hahaha.
Glad I watched this. I have found it hard to find many answer's in life. Lol. Here in FL as well. Now that I own I'm ready to leap ! About 5kw should get me a little over half way free and clear ! Thanks. Another pipe dream not really feasible....
I was in the power generation business for 30 years. It was mostly standby power and then a few systems here and there that were running 24/7, and I too am in Florida. None of what I offered was solar, it was all driven by fossil fuels. We did sell a few "no break" systems that involved large UPS banks that kick in instantly when the grid goes down and that provides the time for the gensets to turn on, come up to speeds and take over. When it came to my home I decided I wanted one of those "no break" systems. I ran into almost everything you've mentioned with FPL. How stupid is it that you shell out $30K+ and you depend on the grid at night.. really? After pissing off three consecutive sales guys I figured out the only way to go is to DIY and say nothing to anyone, and yes ground mounted solar panels. Like you I'm building my system slowly, adding panels and batteries as the budget allows.
I never worried about the light Co. buying my excess power I just bought a Sunpowergold 13,000 split phase 120/240 charger inverter (2 x 6500watt) 14-415 watt panels 4 rack mount 48 volt 100 ah batteries under $10,000. Felt so good I bought 2 powerwall 48 volt 100 ah batteries and one more rack battery for storage for under $4,000
Very informative. If I had it all over to do again I would have went entirely off grid. Currently building my 4.8 kw off grid ground mounted Solar array. My grid tire system is on the roof.
Insurance, talk with an agent, not just call. Just from you talking about insurance I can think of ways to solve it and know of riders for homeowners, farm and BOP policies that would work for a few companies. Now solar on a cabin, depending on the company may just be covered under your homeowners policy., interesting things some companies do. Go through the laws for solar in your state along with the regs the PUC has for implementing those laws. Sometimes they may conflict. Remember the public utility commission or your state equivalent will have rules for this. Like here in PA dealing with the PUC regulated power companies is easy, but dealing with state formed power co-op is a night mare due to not being regulated by the PUC>
Do not use net metering. Install an export power sensor. When your production exceeds your power needs it automatically cuts your inverter off the grid. Further, install a solar charger and battery system so that excess power is stored into your batteries and ready for night use..
FANTASTIC video! Thank you for confirming much of the things I've looked into, and why I've avoided solar for years. I have several friends and co-workers who have jumped into solar waters without being fully aware of how many sharks were present. Not a single one is happy with their decision after a few years. How you are going about implementing solar and battery solutions is really the only way that makes any sense at this time.
It's the only way I can justify spending my money. More affordable equipment like I'm installing pays me back daily and eventually pays for itself, although that's years down the road. I'd rather have this than a gas or propane hog whole house generator that costs upfront and a lot everytime you run it. With that said I want backup power no matter how its generated.
Great video and it really hi-lights the un-fair union between the power companies, local inspection divisions and the solar installation companies. Local power companies and inspection divisions make it as HARD as possible for a DIY person to install solar that is grid tied which requires Net Metering. When you hire a company to install solar they have everything 'cookie-cutter' ready and the inspectors and power companies just quickly approve everything. I've personally seen some really 'hack' installations. I live in RI where the rate is a whoping .23 per kwh so a lot of folks are going solar even though they are getting totally screwed on the installation. Typically if you add up the cost of all the hardware, the solar installation companies are getting away with charging 3x that. And worse there is nobody you can complain to.
Great points and thanks for going into all that detail. Makes me glad I insisted on not being grid tied to begin with. Some people just want to be left alone ;)
Hell's Bells - things are different where you live. I've got a grid tied solar system (my 3rd) in Australia. Engineer's drawings / reports ? Nope, my installer submitted a quick description of what he is installing, and the electricity company said "OK". Extra inspectors ? Nope. Extra people on my land ? Nope. In fact, it;s the opposite. My meter was changed to a smart meter that can be read remotely when my solar system went live, so no-one from the power company ever comes out to read my meter anymore. I sell electricity back to the grid at $0.13 AUD per kWh, and I pay $0.30 AUD per kWh from the grid. Extra insurance costs ? ZERO. (I don't pay insurance - it's a tax on idiots and fools). Do I clean my solar panels ? No, they only ever get "cleaned" when it rains. My solar panels are on my roof, and the total solar panel / system maintenance costs over 14 years (at the 3 properties where I have installed solar power systems): $0.00. Nada. Zilch. As you can see, your experiences are nothing like mine. I love my solar which was installed in Aug-2023: solar panels on my roof and a grid tied inverter (no lithium batteries for me). This was my 3rd solar panel installation, each at a different property. Also have an old Solar Hot Water System (HWS) on my roof - which produces more than enough hot water for my needs, even after days of overcast / rainy weather. My power bills have turned into credits, and I now get free electricity and make around $110 AUD per month tax free - a whopping 25% Return on Investment (ROI). It's like having a piggy bank on my roof. My entire system will pay for itself in 4 years. Highly recommend others do this if they can. Use a reputable, quality installer, and always do your research first.
The crazy thing about this shet here in the US. Is every state and even county in that state is vastly different lol. This changed my life, making it able I could do the same for family! Now I'm so caught up seeing others story on it's unreal. I live/ have properties in Ohio us, And my experience is A LOT like yours lol. When I had an installer everything happened the same. For My two DIY installs all I had to do is go get a permit with a layout where it was going on my property and the name of the devices I would connect to the grid but needed a pro to turn the service on. Both times DIY or not it got inspected by the county before the service got connected (that day), but that was cake. For me when net metering first came out we had a 1 to 1 buyback, With no limit on the system sizes other than it has to be under 99.9KW with no max buybacks...... I took full advantage of this because I knew it would change an it did it's not bad today you still can make $4000usd a year from buybacks but.. lol. 16yrs ago My first system cost me 40,000USD (25,000 after taxes/rebates) because I DIYed 80% of it to put up a 92KW system with 44KWs on dual axis arrays. EVERYONE called me stupid because electric was cheap at 0.045 cents to us then, But my bill was still average $120us because at the time we didn't have NG near use it was propane or electric. But I hella oversized so Soon as it came online that place (shop and home) hasn't paid once. The 13th month (January) going was my first pay of (1yr bank) $562usd, that year made just under 7000usd. Now that electric cost 0.15 cents we get a lil under 3x that now LOL.
This and buying when prices weren't insane like now, really did change my life. After we got that first buyback check from the electric I knew this could be played somehow... We found out how and every other year we bought another house (thats when you can get rebates and tax write offs again 30-40% system costs) an would rent the "old" house to family for half the cost of normal rent w,o free electric lol. We got to our 4th home (2 houses 2 triplex) and the net metering law for Ohio changed. We pay $4800 a month in home/solar loans but the electric company pays $6200 on average alone. An from 6 families we get a total $2800 a month when we "could" get in the range of 6-8000. Since we put 85% of what we get at the loans they ALL will be paid off in 2.5years. Plus over this time have saved enough to build our dream home/set-up and possibly retire at 40 when everything is paid.
Another thing to consider is that by not having batteries, the electricity that you'll be buying will be peak energy during the evening hours which is the most expensive. Also, as mentioned many of these grid tie systems don't allow you to use your own electricity during power outages even though you have all the solar panels you need to easily run your home.
Incorrect. When you are grid-tied and have net metering, you produce when it is sunny and you buy when it is not sunny. But you get to use credits for when you were producing. The net is typically close to zero.
@@jackonthefarm5540 My coop doesn't play by those rules. They buy it for $0.04 and sell it for $0.12 You are looking at a true net metering system. They are disappearing because you are producing when wholesale power is cheap and receiving when wholesale power is expensive. In our screwy system in Texas wholesale spot prices can hit $0.40 a KW at 6pm in August. If Feb of 2021 the wholesale spot price hit $9.00 per KW for the week.
In CA you will pay $0.40 per kilowatt hour during peak in the summer and our net metering just changed so the payback is not as good as it was before. A lot of people have been suckered into leasing solar and have a lifetime $100 to $150 / month electric bill. My high one last year running my central AC everyday was $400. I purchased two window units, a bluetti ac200 Max with batteries, and 1600 watts of solar panels and had the bill chopped way down by the fall. I'm currently working on a another 2000 watt system to run the window unit in the living room and cool the front of the house. My system is not big enough to power my electric dryer and all all the lights, but I can live with a 20 or $30 electric bill.
I meant to bring that up as well. I've been seeing a drop in buyback prices here as well. That sucks that a homeowner buys this huge and expensive system, only to learn the power company cuts buyback rates or even drops them all together.
@@TKCL in Spain people were taking out loans and building huge solar farms to power the grid because it was encouraged by the government, then all of a sudden there was more than enough power so people quit getting paid.
To add insult to injury you didn't mention is the issues with trying to sell a home under these crazy rip off contracts. Some banks won't give out loans to Carrying the cost if the home owners still owe on these contracts because it's like having a life long lean on the home. You are correct 100% it's not worth it and the system is rigged so to be better off not having solar at all and just paying the regular electricity bill without the headache and extra losses. Solar is great as for emergency off grid survival backup or doing what you are doing to go off grid. I personally do love solar technologies and I am in the process of building an emergency power station for my home as backup for like when we have hurricanes here in Florida were I live. Good video people need to know this stuff before they consider doing solar because it's as critical as when buying a house if they go the route you just touched on. My neighbor has one of those feed back to the grid and he has to run gas generators during power outages on top off he is the last to get power on when they repair the lines because they have to do thier mumbo-jumbo before turning his on. He told me how disappointed he was with the whole thing and it really turned him off about solar. As for me I will never mount a solar panel on the roof of my house I may make like carport covers or special coverings which maybe someday when I get this project finished I will share on a video just like you shared with us. Thank you for this information you shared today I saved this video because next time one of my friends or neighbors gets approached by one of these door to door sales persons and asks me I will not have to go through the long process of explaining all of this. I can just share your video and save them from making a very grave and costly mistake.
Well you bring up some real good points. I live in Arkansas and installed a DIY ground mount system at my farm. This is a Net-Metering system. It does not have any battery backup so if the grid is down, my system shuts off. The main advantage of this system is the fact that I have a condo that is served by the same electrical provider and that allows me apply my excess kWh's to that meter. What this has done for me in the 8 months I have had this system is I have had bills from both locations that have had 0 kWh. I really expect that to be the norm. I have calculated just over an 11 year payback which is not to bad. Regarding the size of the system, my provider would only approve a system that provided 100% of my last 12 months usage. Time will tell if this has been a good investment but I'm thinking it will turn out to be a good one.
You done it correctly with a properly sized system, plus it also sounds like you have true net metering where you are. Here are these fly-by-night solar companies will put the largest system they can sell you on your roof even if it's oversized. They then get you to do financing paying High interest rates and monthly payments. Also in this state we pay a minimum $30 a month fee to be grid tied whether we use any power or not. So if your grid tied here you will always have some sort of a monthly payment no matter how much solar power you generate.
@@TKCL i currently am on a true net metering contract which is 1 for 1. The electric companies in Arkansas just lobbied the legislature and got changes made to the law that drops the pay for over generating down to wholesale rates. That will be for systems installed beginning next year. Currently systems in service now will be grandfathered for 25 years. But at the end of the day, I like projects and this was one I did last year and was really surprised by how easy it was. I did have some companies quote it and the prices I got were right at three times what it actually costs me. Lots of markup in solar systems.
I think most people have the same motivation as me when getting solar power. We want the power to stay on during grid failure,whether one hour or several days. The brownouts and neutral breaks that destroy refrigerators and electronics are mitigated by having pure sine wave inverters typical in solar. The main reason for failure of mini split heat pumps is dirty grid power. Produce more power than I need during sunny days but can’t imagine spending the money to buy equipment to sell excess to the grid when they don’t want it. It’s reasonable for the power company to pay wholesale during the day because grid-scale solar projects are coming on line like an avalanche.If they can produce electricity at $.03 / KWH , have no incentive to pay you several times that. In San Diego ,where they have huge price swings daily, you could justify buying batteries and grid-tie inverters without panels. I’m helping some of my friends who fell into the grid-tie trap to add battery backup. It’s simpler to just abandon the sell back scam and just use the panels off-grid. Maintain the grid connection and operate your inverter in Solar/Battery /Utility load priority mode. As you scale up your inverter capacity, the essential circuits panel can finally become the main panel. I have two houses on my system and the smaller one now passes all power through inverters whatever the original source. Keep adding houses to your private micro-grid and soon kick the power company out of the loop!
I have a very small off grid solar system and it was just meant as an emergency system, but as the price of power, fees and taxes keeps going up the investment keeps getting better and better. Yes my system was meant for emergencies but it produces power every day and runs my home. I was from the beginning focussed on only my needs and not society, so my greed index never went through the roof but stayed focussed on solving an issue rather than earning money. Did it work? Yes it did, my grid supplied power consumption fell dramatically to about $90 per quarter sometimes less. I agree with your assessment don't waste time on dealing with the "man" or any other parasites.
Same situation here almost to a T, one of them expenses nobody talks about on Return on Investment is them line charges never go away even if I do not use any power off the Grid, but the Grid is one heck of a backup power supply for the price. Built everything myself and never asked for permission with permits/inspections....some times better off asking for forgiveness and not turn yourself in asking for permission on stuff.
A friend got coned into solar net metering, small house, not many panels. Monthly bill for system and monthly electric bill. I asked her how much she was making, she had no idea she said, maybe the grid tie inverter doesn’t keep track of power made, maybe it’s just less than her monthly system bill? All I know is that it’s obviously a scam and ugly boxes installed all over her house, wires everywhere. A smaller panel system and batteries would have had a greater value in my eyes. Thank you!
The people I know financing $50,000 systems are paying more on their monthly payment then the electricity would have been to just buy it from the electrical co-op. It makes absolutely no sense and the fact that they have no backup power blows my mind.
@@TKCL I asked her how much she was making off of it monthly and she said it was difficult to determine if it was making any money at all. This makes no sense at all, I’m sure she knows exactly how much she was paying for electricity for the same month last year and what she is paying now for power and her solar company but she won’t say. I’m the opposite, I have about 8000 watt hours stored in solar batteries and 400 hundred watts of portable solar panels to supplement power generation but would rely primarily upon gas generator to recharge. My system is for back up power, her system is to make money, we are different people.
Net-metering in most states been done away with the reason is the utility companies don't want to buy your power at the cost you buy electricity from them. They can generate their own electricity for 2 cents a KW. Their business model is such that it used to depend on everyone using so much power when solar came along they thought only small percentage of wealthy people would own it. Then zero down leasing models showed up and they didn't see that coming and 1000's of solar systems were installed. Lot of times solar power you're selling back can't even use it because they can't control it like a power plant, yet they still have to pay you. Utilities got rid of net metering now they pay lot less add in lot of fees and added demand price plans higher on peak. It all adds up to you paying them and money they pay back to you is lower.
Great points, I have 8kw of panels + 10kw battery (can expand it too) system and make on a perfect day 60kw+ and charge the battery. Currently saving $2k+ a year on power bills on what we were using before! payback in 5-7yrs, powers only going up and daily connection fee... so probably closer to 4-5yrs till break even.
Both battery. tech and all in one inverter tech have greatly improved, and prices have come down recently, to where the earlier model of net metering for people on the grid is becoming outmoded. Cumbersome, restricting and overly expensive as you describe. Thanks for raising the net metering cons, especially insurance issues, which some may find like stepping on a mine after the fact.
I'm in Washington state. Net metering is using the grid as a free battery. Not actually selling any power back but replacing what you use. If you make as much power as you use, you pay nothing for power except the Utilities fixed monthly costs. We call this one for one net metering. True if power goes out you have no power because there is no battery. But that's not an issue, we rarely loose power. If we do, it's just a couple minutes. If we make a bunch of power in the summer, rolling our meter back, a couple months worth of power. We get free power in the winter till we use up what we banked with the Utility. That's why with cheaper Solar Panels these days, it's good to put in a big system. Our net metering resets every March. If we make more then we use by March we don't get any credit for it. Have you looked at the all in one Inverters like, EG4 18KPV Hybrid Inverter | All-In-One Solar Inverter | 18000W PV Input | 12000W Output | 48V 120/240V Split Phase | EG4 18KPV-12LV at Signature Solar.
100% it’s exactly like you mentioned it’s where you happen to live & costs of the energy rates that you are charged. Some folks are lucky like Texas cause they can choose their energy provider. First let me say, I’m glad some folks still can find good rates & pay $0.10-$0.15 cents per kw but I live in a extremely expensive area where we have $0.38-$0.75 cents per kw depending on the time of day & season cause summer always costs a lot more of course. I got several bids $85k & above but did tons of homework realizing how inflated some of those bids were so I found a 11.55kw system that produces 70kw daily & saved 75% off the quotes I got. I’m so glad you found out the local companies around you doesn’t want you to overproduce or give you any good types of credits/payback. But it’s not cool with all the restrictions & limitations I am lucky we get 1:1 kw credits but it won’t last forever so in the future I plan to expand my system with batteries & a generator in case it’s a few bad Solar days that can’t charge my batteries.
Grid taid system makes sense if you available to use up the power you product. Meaning you need to work from home or work night shift and be home using the electricity during sunshine. Batteries are still quite expensive, and going off grid or semi of grid is in most cases not smart financialy, Off course that's not talking to account the backup that is not that easy to put a price on. If you think about getting solar, the smart way ia to make up a plan on how much you be able to use the power your self, and get an estimate off the price on that system, over production system is calculated by what grid pays you, so going to over size system might never pay back no if you get the numbers that way.
Kelley, the liability insurance for net metering is because when the grid goes down the solar system is still making power and sending it into the grid. If there is a grid worker trying to repair an issue and gets harmed or killed due to your solar system power the home homer is responsible.
For a sewer system or water system a net metered system is almost required with the size of battery banks we would be required to build. Then the upkeep of the batteries. Hell just the emergency batteries for the control systems are bad enough.
Here in Indiana the power companies are very anti net metering. We are building our home in about 2 years and I plan to go solar with battery backup to capture excess power. I'm not planning on selling back to the grid. In an ideal world I would just have to pay to keep our home plugged into the grid. Gas prices here as well as electricity costs are skyrocketing and taking control of your power independence is the way to go.
My 7.8KW system with a 6KW grid tie inverter cost me less than $7k after tax credits. We are paying 11.75 cents per KWH with net metering. I designed and installed the system myself. The engineering costs were $500. My payback is about 4 years. I am producing about how much I would use if it was averaged over the year which it is not. It is averaged over the month. So 5-6 months out of the year my bills are minimum. It is also on my metal shop and is uninsured. I am very pleased and so glad I did not have to deal with an installer.
1. Metering is highly variable from place to place. Some states still offer one to one net metering. 2. Some states don’t allow local utilities to ask for insurance.. 3. Net metering makes more sense in northern states where we have very long days for a season and very short days in the winter. So that the point of net metering is to use the grid as your battery. 4. The number of panels you need is highly dependent upon the angle and aspect of your roof: a good roof will make each panel efficient. 5. The number of panels you need is directly correlated to the amount of power you use in general. This doesn’t matter if you have batteries or if your grid tied. 6. Installation companies have engineering teams, that efficiently design your system, and crank out a permit and work that they know will pass inspection. 7. he complains a lot about the numbers but doesn’t provide any real math. This is because each house is completely different.
we self installed 10 used panels.. just layed on roof.. medium sized inverter from amazon...$600... one big battery... $ 1,500. few breakers and wires... use all the power here with no grid backfeed...{no permits needed!) summer bills were about $12 bucks... winter may go up, as not much sun.,, but the battery is a game changer for power failure too... just sayin'
One of the things that you didn't mention is that if you have a company install, and you basically lease it from them, you don't qualify for the government 30% incentive rebate. The company you sign the contract with gets the rebate. To qualify, you will have to buy the system outright, and can only claim $3,000 dollar credit a year and carry the rest over to following years.
use a hybrid inverter that takes grid in and puts out to the grid, but also puts out to the home only these use batteries and will power your home if the grid goes down......during the day your home will use the solar first, and if you need more power , it comes from the grid....you set it up to not sell , it will stop the meter from turning, but it wont make it turn backwards in this way you dont need an agreement with the electric company ...its like an any appliance you plug up
@@TKCL I was using an XW 4548, it lasted from 2008 to 2023....a board went bad and you cant get parts for them anymore anyways....the XW works really well for this and already puts out 240v with one box
I have been using solar (small system) since 2008 well before they started getting on with this BS about tying it back to the grid. Why the F would I want to buy more solar stuff just to give the power to the power company? They sure don't pay you enough to do it so why would anyone would want to. I never understood that at all. I use my system to run my garage and as a backup for my freezer and fridge. Another one is buying a stupid EV car, what a stupid idea that is. You will never drive an EV car cheaper than putting fuel in it. Anyway, it's good to see some people telling others the real truth about all this BS.
I have a 1 for 1 net metered system for the last 8 years. Other than the no-power-on-power failures, which are very rare in my area, no regrets. Also, I never got hit with any insurance increases. My only regret is I don't have the more efficient systems that are available today. Wish I could do it all over again today. As long as net metering doesn't change away from 1 for 1. I find this video just mostly misinformation that will scare people away from Solar. Every person I know who has solar DOESN’T regret it. That may change after 25 or more years when systems need replacing. Ground Mounted systems are more Maintenance-friendly, which I can totally agree with you on. But I don't think that you, who live with a massive land advantage, should be scaring off people who live in urban places that don't have that option to go with a ground mount system. I mostly enjoy your videos for DYI Solar. But this didn't accomplish much more than scare off potential solar prospects. There's a huge difference between DYI Rural and typical Urban systems. Stay in your own lane.
Where I am from they figured a way to wash the net metering by adding an infrastructure surcharge. I will NEVER do a grid-tied solar system. Grid goes down, I've got mine.
7.2kWh system powers my entire house, charge Tesla battery and sells back to grid 6 months of the year. The other 6 months it generates enough power to run the house part of the day (9 hours is the lowest).so in winter I still need a lot of electricity from grid. No insurance hassle in California with PG&E.
Been doing net metering since 2019. Wish i would have put in batteries at the same time but that would have double the price of the system. Electric bill is right around $16 year round, down from around $200. Still paying on system but the down years suck.
You make it sound as if net metering energy is bought/sold on a daily basis. It's not (at least not with SoCal Edison). I have solar, and am on net metering. We go in a 12-month cycle. Basically, excess generation during the day goes onto the grid (meter actually spins backwards), and at night I use grid power (meter spins forwards). Summer months will generate more excess power than winter/rainy months. Only at the end of that 12-month period is the net calculated and if I've generated more Kwh than I used, I pay for that excess usage. If I've generated more during the previous 12 months than I've used, then I have the option of selling the excess back to SCE at wholesale rates, or keeping it my account as a credit at retail rates. Granted, I've never been in the position where I've generated more than I've used because I installed my panels before I had 12 months of SCE history to base my usage needs on.
That's not at all how it works here, your incorrect in assuming that's its like yours. Its technically a used in and out calculation and you pay at the end of the month. You pay for what you use, plus a premium after 1000kwh. You get a very small KWh credit back to your bill for what you generate. You pay the difference after deductions. You can't roll credits forward here or use later. It's calculated monthly and it sucks.
Yet I see people getting those left and right. To make matters worse they are FINANCING these systems for 20-30 years. $60k would build an off grid system capable of powering a few homes. Especially if it's DIY.
@@TKCL Yes, I believe you are correct. Plus the 27% Federal tax credit does not even come close to offsetting what one would pay in interest over 20-30 years on an already overpriced system.
Net metering would require me to carry home owners insurance which I have no need for myself....I run my stuff isolated from the Grid and just use the Grid for a backup source for 16 bucks a mth in line charges.
We currently have no A/C , no EV, no electric heater but do have a electric dryer and water heater we only use a couple times per week. Our power is bill is still $50/month (dang water heater). I’m installing off grid solar so we can offset a EV and A/C. I’d like to use the EV battery as the emergency house power supply. It costs too much to have two big batteries: a big solar battery in the house that charges the EV battery.
Sounds good. Our heater is propane so maybe I should switch to propane hot water? I think I’d go with a on demand propane hot water as we dont use a lot and the tank of hot water would sit there loosing heat for days.
Another aspect of the insurance problem is risk of fire. Amazon famously had solar installations on the rooftops of their US facilities and experienced a series of explosions (yes) and fires within those solar systems, at a rate far higher than should have been happening. The fires caused a lot of damage and ultimately forced Amazon to take down the solar systems. The cause is probably that solar is pushing a LOT of unrelenting energy through relatively lightweight components and wiring built to lowest cost, not to highest durability. And the stuff just can't handle it even when the labels say it can. Power grid utilities figured out this stuff decades ago and build crazy strong systems to handle power for good reasons. Domestic solar is not there. Even Amazon, with all their money, is not there. This is difficult and dangerous stuff. Energy, no matter where it comes from, is dangerous. Anyway solar is a no-go for me because I don't have the land. But my power bill runs $2 on a normal day or $4 a day when it's hot or cold. Solar of any size would never pay for itself with this kind of low consumption. Lucky me I guess.
Keep in mind a lot of those fires were due to old lithium chemical technology. A lot of that has went away with the lithium iron phosphate batteries, they don't experience that fire and run away that the older Technologies did.
Andrew that is excellent information. Most things are just not what they seem. Love the information you do your research on. Your very good at what you do. 👍👍❤️❤️🇨🇦
I have a 11.7 klw solar system. 75 k get about 90 $ credit in the summer then 200 electric bill in the winter. Got a 18.5 klw battery. 325 a month for the eq uiment that's higher than my electric bill has ever been
Now I don't have any choice. Solar company said maybe I'm using more electric now. I've actually been cutting back. Can't wash clothes till I'm making solar
You don't need to charge batteries and sell back to the grid both. When you need power at night, you either get if from the grid or batteries. There is no need to get if from both. I have net metering and I never have to buy any power from the power company because I produce more than I use. The grid is my "battery". I have a few lifepo4 batteries on the side in case the grid goes down. They stay charged all the time because I never use them. If the grid does go down, I throw a couple of switches and I'm back in business. All for $7,100 and I can prove it to anybody that wants to know. I've had it for 13 yrs. Most people get totally ripped off on solar.
Colorado is supposed to be very "Solar friendly", however the power companies do the wholesale only rates when they buy it from you with net metering. I haven't checked with home owners yet, but we had a huge increase in home owners this past year, so I imagine solar might add more cost. From my calculations, to offset my home usage 100% (On average, we use 1062 kW per month. ) I would need to purchase an 18 panel array (400w panels/7.2 kW) and spend around $13,000 just for the DiY solar kit. That does not include plans/permits/inspections/wire/safety gear to install etc. etc. To have a company like Tesla install this same size array, it's about $21,000 (actually not that bad for price). After calculating the rate for net metering and the rate I pay on average per year, I would be at minimum around 7-9yr break even for the DiY install, and 10yr + for the Tesla install. This does not include battery, so you get all the hassle and still no security in crazy times. I am still crunching numbers in Colorado but I haven't even added in additional homeowner cost/fees from electric company, potential issues with the array, and also panel degradation and issues/problems/maint cost. Thanks for the video and presenting in a way I can continue researching/doing my math. I love the idea of solar, but it's astounding how the government seems to ruin everything it touches (and greed from utility companies). They take something beautiful like solar, harnessing free energy, and they make it something that is not beneficial to most people in the middle class. And lets not even get in to recycling panels and....the waste they create (along with batteries).
It is my opinion that solar and wind power generation should not be allowed on the grid. I believe in Nuclear power generation, so in an ideal world the grid would be all Nuclear power except for some natural gas turbines for backup. OFF grid solar IS looking interesting however.
Does anyone have any more questions about why the power company is on board with people going solar? Because it makes them money. Math never lies, been telling people this for years.
You summed it up perfectly Andrew... I have researched solar for years. The only way I have seen it viable is they way you are doing it. For the average home owner it takes way too long to recoup the coast. For peace of mind solar is great (if you are the DYI type), however if you spend 30k on a whole house solar system, that someone installs for you... nah. In my opinion it will take way to long to pay for itself.
The going rate for the install companies around here is $50-60k for a whole home system with NO BATTERIES!!!! YIKES!!!! I can build an amazing DIY system for a fraction of that cost WITH batteries.
Yeah, it's obviouse both the Power Company Lobbyists and Insurance Lobbyists have talked Florida Legistaure to stick it to we the citizen consumers. I would only consider a Solar/Wind backup off-grid generating systems.
I have had 30 panels (~14.5kW) installed less than a year ago and with the Canadian subsidies, it cost me in the $20k range (that’s less than the cost of a new car). Based on the savings that I am seeing in my electric bill, I expect that the system will be paid off in less than 10 years at current electric rates, so this will go down as electricity costs start to increase. I hired a local contractor to perform the install and take care of all the engineering work which made this all super easy for me as a home owner. It is important to be aware of the pros and cons, but in my experience, the pros are by far exceeding the cons.
That's just not the case here. The average system after all regulations, fees, labor, engineering and product cost is in the $50-60k range. Add on top of that legal regulations requiring you to stay grid tied and pay a monthly fee, it never pays you back before end of life on equipment.
You forget to account for the decrease in output over time which will also lower your "payback rate" and savings. It may take a few years, but maybe in 10 years your 14.5kw may only be able to produce 10-12kw depending on environmental and usage factors.
Andrew, here in Florida you may know ... lobbyist were successful in getting va0 bill passed that even if you sell excess power back to the power companies or if you are off-grid in any manner we still have to pay a $30 monthly minimum payment for keeping the grid up dated. I find this disingenuous as the power companies in Florida are still using the same outdated technology from 75 years ago and refuse putting power underground or even putting up new cables or poles unless they are just damaged beyond repair. The lines in my yard has been repaired buy just picking it back up and spliced back together multiple times and poles are still leaning from Hurricane Eloise. The power companies think they are god's here.
I didn't know about the bill or exactly what had happened. But yes I am aware that we basically pay a monthly fee regardless of if we use power or not. It's a joke!
I learned this a long time ago, Electric Companies are a rip off, I'd never hook solar to the grid it failed years ago and it's sound like nothings changed.
I read there is a Florida law the power company has to buy the electricity from the homeowner at the retail rate. Is this true I am just doing research.
I'm Tampa, FL we have a 25kw system ... 85 panels ... Grid-tied. Our insurance company dropped us with no reason after 3yrs. The new insurance cost us just under 3x what we had. I wouldn't do a large system again. We are building a new extremely efficient home in another state, and it will have a small off grid solar install
$1M in liability coverage range from $165-250/year as a separate rider on the insurance policy. You got a crap quote. Just fyi, the average solar system size in Central Florida is 9-10 kW (about 30 panels). The average system size in Southern Florida is about 7-8 kW (about 23 panels). Finally, electrical cooperatives are notorious for underpaying for the energy sold to them via net metering. If someone is with Duke, FPL, or OUC, they will get the full retail value of the energy. So a lot of what you said only applies to your unique situation and not the majority of people living in Florida. Solar for DIY’ers should be strictly for off grid applications since solar requires a level of expertise to be done properly.
Off grid I agree on, we're all under too many stipulations for grid tied. Not to mention insurance companies are dropping people left and right in our state for grid tied systems. Your off in your insurance assessment, it's because the policy covered my out building, property around it and the liability. That's all required where your solar is located. I'm keeping mine away from the house because of the horror stories of companies dropping so many with solar tied to their home. Not my words, words of many Florida viewers of the channel.
Yep, I'm blown away at what I'm digging up. With that said, I'm still ALL for backup or off grid systems. They are DIY friendly and have been steadily dropping in price.
The south in general seems to have a glut of available power. Reading the net metering rules it seems like they are concerned about too much solar without backup coming online, causing issues with during the day power generation. It’s hard to start and stop power generation equipment, the easier it is to turn on and off quickly the more it costs per hour to operate. I wonder if in time they will be more friendly to locations that have grid tie / battery backup. Yielding less cost to the power company to deal with the renewable storage problem.
@@TKCL I believe there are quite a few systems that essentially have to put the power they generate somewhere, so if there isn’t demand they have to shut them down. When you are talking about systems that are in the 10’s or 100’s of MW generation capacity it’s expensive to stop those systems. If they make it cost prohibitive for people to install systems that are net metering only, they don’t have to worry about shutting down during the day when there is excess solar production and then starting up at night to take the load. I think operating in this manner is slightly reckless, at some point the US is going to put a stop on fossil fuel derived electricity production, the sooner the grid is capable of making that switch the less painful it’ll be.
It's actually happening on the reverse side, look at all the blackouts and brownouts that are happening and becoming more common. Those are due to excessive use of the grid and Equipment not being able to keep up with the demand. It's frightening to see power companies cutting power off during extreme heat or cold.
@@TKCL those locations are more open to solar niceness. I’m in the Carolina’s, been here for years and have had the most stable power of my life. Places that are doing the major rolling blackouts tend to have a larger solar adoption rate, and electrical rates are insane. I do intend to build out a system over the next few years that will cover me for 95% of the days. Not off grid, but low purchase amounts.
Finally found what I needed to learn. Thank you for this educational video. I fell for this trap and stuck with a 60k solar system with no savings. I want to change the system to non net metering and add battery system. Not sure where to start. But will try
There's a guy named Benjamin Nelson who has a channel here on RU-vid who is really getting his paid off, ever month he has extra plus he has all his electric needs paid for even his electric cars, he's really into building electric vehicles and he has a book he wrote called build an electric car. I don't care anything about selling anything wholesale to any of them I just want to be self sufficient and not dependent on anyone for anything I need. If I can get it together I might have something that people can use instead of solar and it takes up a lot less space than solar. The so called solar generators these companies are not generators they are harvesters and storage. Thanks for the warnings.
I agree with you on the utility company crap. And again it depends on the state. So for me I would rather first calcalate my peak day during the summer of total kwh. Which peaked at 82kwh. So for me that means I need enough panels to produce 8.2 kw per hour to 10kw per hour. Then have enough batteries to store 50kwh to 80kwh. Then buy a good inverter like the solark 15k system which let's you set things up so only excess used is sent to the meter to just set the utility companies meter to zero and keep it there. But not actually sell anything back to the utility company. Thats just my thoughts. As from my point of view if the utility company or Co op wants to act like bone heads them I am not going to sell anything to them unless they are willing to play by my rules and terms if you want my power and I own the system you meet my terms and conditions or you don't get excess power except to set my meter to zero and keep it there.
I have a very simple setup. 54 Solar Panels ground mounted which I built myself. I added 1200W MicroInverters which convert dc to 240v ac and I have it come into my home on two main panels (I have 400amp service on my home) I use most of my solar during the day like stated but any excess only gets paid at 4.5cents a KWH from my electric co. I pay 9.5cents a KWH. so the more I use the better i save. I don't have batteries at all and yes no solar if grid goes down. which in 8 years has only happend twice. there is no way batteries would help as my home is 4200sf with 30ft ceilings and my largest kwh per day is very large. i see usages (mostly from Heat/Air/Hot water heater) which tops about 272kwh a day in Jan due to cold and emergency heat. (those effecient heat pumps due no good in colder winters in NC) I will say that i purchased my solar panels wholesale from florida and built my own ground mount and did my own wiring in all i have about 10k in the whole system that was quoted to me from solar companies at 80k. over all I'm happy and have little to no maint and no batteries to worry about. and If I really need power I have diesel generators that I could use.
You did it correctly, these companies here charging homeowners $50k for a setup are a rip off. The sales pitch and claims are a lie, these systems are impossible to pay off.
