Absolutely correct. I watched an interview with Chris Kyle (American Sniper) and he discussed his longest confirmed kill (2200 yards). He went into detail how you depend on your spotter. He did not expect to connect with his first shot. He admitted it was pure luck and the target walked into his bullet about 3 feet from where he was aiming. He went on to explain how the time for the first bullet to arrive near the target allows him a second shot before the target hears the shot and knows he is being shot at.
Thank you Brother for sharing the practical truth. This info should help us all feel better about our target acquisition! (From the Space Coast of Florida)
Taking this information and relating it to what I have experienced shooting beyond 1000yd, you are absolutely right. The further the distance, the more unknown variables there are. I have seen my 1/2 minute at 100 yard rifle become a 2+ minute rifle at 1800yd. Meaning the cone of fire at 100yd is 1/2" or less and the cone of fire at 1800yd is 36"+. It took me a while to accept that fact because conventionally you'd think 1/2" at 100 is going to be 9" at 1800. But the reality is the variables that accumulate over that kind of distance simply will not allow for that kind of accuracy. I suppose that is why f-class guys want their guns to shoot 1/4 moa or less at 100 yards because at 1000 yards they want the gun to still be shooting 1/2 moa to 3/4 moa consistently.
I truly enjoy the videos. Both educational and just plain fun for us reloaders and shooters. What I am addressing is Mark's commitment to his channel and viewers. Yesterday, I sent him an email. Less than 24 hours, I had a response. When do they sleep?😅 Mark and Sam, thank you for your dedication to shooting sports and freedoms.
Another variable that is rarely considered is the consistency of the ammunition package. Very small variations in the powder, projectile, primer AND the way they are combined have measurable impact over distance. Gravity is a constant @ 32 feet a second so a 20fps variation in ammunition over 2,600 yards depending on velocity will have a built in variable of another MOA
OMG! Differentiating between reality, and delusional sh*t talkers, (gamers, politicians, Hollywood / media). Spot on with your assessment. As a extension of the cold bore subject, I’m surprised that you didn’t mention clean bore shots. Thanks for sharing. Cheers
Makes a lot of sense. Although it’s burst my bubble about being The Australian Sniper 😂. But it makes me feel better about all my misses. Love your videos, keep ‘em coming.
Three things, really: 1. Platform capability 2. Human ability to use the platform to the platform's capability 3. Judgment of conditions, to calibrate the platform
Excellent presentation. My f class rifle is sighted in for 1000 yds. I cold bore shoot it at a match(sighters) because of the thing I can't see. Wind. Thanks again.
My experience as a bench rest shooter using .22lr is that the first shot (cold bore) is usually about half a MOA high and about 40 degrees to the right of vertical of my set zero. However, that is also dependent upon the wind. Where I shoot, it is a matter of what direction and how strong the wind is rather than if there is a wind. I therefore, basically ignore the point of impact of the first shot. The subsequent shots tell me what the actual conditions are at that time.
I've taken whitetail deer on the first shot in freezing cold, snow, sleet at around 300 meters and I've also missed in better conditions. Luck, concentration, and basic rifle marksmanship all play into it. I would love to try the ELR side but there is no place within a thousand miles of me to try.
great point. that’s how I know you’re a true expert. I think some people that do long range shooting don’t want to admit the role luck plays in making a first shot at extreme long range. it’s a simple matter of statistics and the natural non-controllable dispersion of a round as distance increases. But it sounds a lot better to your buddies to say “yep I meant to do that”. kind of like when you sink 3 balls on a break in pool/billiards. I’d much rather believe that I’m just that good but in reality, i got lucky.
G'day Mark and Sam. I wish when I was a younger fella I had a bloke like you to tell me all about the " If's, but's and maybe's" of shooting. My son and I used to go out with the farmers at night and clean up unwanted critters but we could never understand the "why's " that always were present. We got a lot of hit's but we had silly misses that we couldn't work out why. Maybe there should be perhaps not compulsory but courses run by people like yourself to educate the one's who think they know but need to be enlightened. I now know if I had my time again I would be there with bells on. All its going to do is make a better shooter out of your self.
Retired police sniper. My rifle, 308, consistently shot 1/2" left 3/4" down on cold clean bore. But performed closer to POI on cold fouled bore the following day, no cleaning. We only did this when we competed in SniperCraft, which was a 2 day competition. If it made a difference, days or weeks later, it is unknown as we always kept the bores clean after training. Do you have any experience or thoughts on this? You are correct, that MOST police snipers only train at 100 yds and MOST shooting occur under that. We did train on longer distances when we could and it was available.
We run equilibrium (the barrel stays fouled) and never clean them out, and will always hold zero, but have not do any cold bore shift testing to see differences for years, really no relevance with our ELR stuff. Hunting rifles are set up on cold bore only, but shots 2 and 3 are all with in 1/2" moa on tests we have done, but that will always be rifle specific, Cheers
@@markandsamafterwork Mark, thank you for your wisdom. you just spoke of a contentious subject, cleaning vs leaving a barrel fouled / equilibrium as you say. From a hunters perspective, I want the best accuracy from that first shot as I need to know it is going to be ethical. My rifles stay fouled as this gives (for me with my equipment from my experience) the best first shot accuracy. I would like to hear more on your thoughts on this, specifically do you see or have reason to believe leaving a rifle fouled for x time ( 3 days, a week, 2 weeks, 2 months etc) has an effect on poi due to this time difference ? Also I assume when you say fouled you mean No cleaning / patching out whatsoever ? Cheers.
When you read the stories of the record shots in Afghanistan or Iraq there are always a number of factors at play; firstly the "friendly" forces always had overreach - their equipment could shoot further so there was little to no risk that they were going to be subject to counterfire; secondly, they did know what the cold bore accuracy of their rifle was; lastly they all took a number of shots to walk their bullets onto the target.
Does a rifle always shoot its first shot in the direction this is what I would like to know ? You put out the best shooting info and video ever ,thanks you.
Another great video full with pieces of that good old humble pie. Mark, with any round sent, the closest they could uniformly be, might be within 1%. However, mother nature / conditions most likely will never come close to that 1%. Some call it luck, as we understand how the stars align. Myself, don't reference this, good or bad, or it is what it is. I understand human evolution in such a way that one day, there could be a possibility of exactness, though my belief wouldn't be at anytime soon. So, seeking things and conquering definitely is merely what lies between the ears. I am just happy to say, it's all fun and move on. Great content Mark/Sam. Every time you or Sam get a second shot off & it hits, I applaud. knowing the stars aligned. Being realistic allows us all to accept & keep moving forward. Your channel keeps things real and gives us folks something to hold as in, a higher standard. No OCD here, merely two fine folks giving what they love to do & sharing with the community. Thanks Mark/Sam
For as much hunting experience as my uncle has, his gun experience really bit him in the butt on our last trip. He didn't check zero before the trip started and his first opportunity was off target by about 8 moa. On top of other issues like his trigger and seer freezing up and not working properly, I hope that taught him a lesson about taking better care of his rifle and being a little bit better on the shooting side of things. He is a fantastic planner, leader, and navigator but his gun experience almost ruined all of his other efforts.
Mark what do you think about the concept of over match for close range and cold bore. 300 win/ 338 must improve the cold bore hit % by reducing influence of unseen conditions. Makes me wonder how many more yards past 500 you would gain. I feel your right on with the 1 MOA per 100 yards. In my opinion 10 inch targets represent a large animal vital zone well. Cold First round hits on 10 inch’s at 600 or 700 would seem likely. I’m not saying it’s ethical for hunting but target shooting for sure.
We’re still out here, like yourself, just trying to make the world a smarter place instead of lazily acquiescing to the lowest common denominator. Good info as usual. Cheers.
I’ve been watching some guys mitigating cold bore shift with blowing down a barrel with a straw to ad moisture. The theory is that unfired the barrel is dry of moisture otherwise found post a firing and the addition through blowing down the barrel place moisture from your breath in the barrel. Another mitigating measure suggest was to place a cut finger from silicon type gloves over the barrel and keep the chamber closed in storage. They had some measurable results testing the straw blowing method.
28 + yrs leo myself and I can tell you that within 100 yards for law enforcement is 100% correct. To be honest I've had range staff tell me that swat officers were horrible at 500 yards at our range. They could not understand why I was not in swat because shooting my .375 chey tac with sub moa accuracy at 500 yards beat anything any of them could do. (as though 500 yards is even warming up for a .375 chey tac) People watch/believe too much television....lol
Hi Mark, pretty frightening/ disgusting that our Lawmakers have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about.... and yet they truly believe they know everything.... cheers fred l
Yes its unfortunate that most of the world law makers don’t have a clue. Of the shooting sport world. It’s human nature of having fear of what we don’t know and don’t understand. There for laws are made from fear not facts.
Thanks guys,when I miss the Barn Door's i normally say someone just opened them as i pulled the trigger, now i can just say unlucky 🤣 Seriously though information handed out down to earth and understanderble to numbskull's like me 👍
@markandsamafterwork they have discontinued that app here in the states, if you didn't have it before you can't get it again. If your tablet or phone dies with the app on it you can't download it to a new device.
@@markandsamafterwork I figured that would be the one you’d use. I did too but lost the app and now it’s banned in the US and the App Store doesn’t have it anymore. Wish I could get it back! Haven’t found anything that compares.
no differnt when i go fox shooting at night for the most part my barrel is pointed out the window getting cooled down and 9 times out of ten its VERY cold and im awhere of "cold bore Truth"
For a cold bore or any other hit at distance, it's 99% skill and that last 1% is luck. If you don't have the skill in setting up your rifle, your optic, your ammo, and your shooting technique, you'll never get close enough for that last bit of luck to give you that hit.
I think sniper mean - a unknown location or clandestine spot. I should have Googled it. I dont get to shoot as far. So my cold, bore worries are the standard deviations a 18" barrel 1/16 twist, 22wmr, CCI TMJ 40gr 1875fps. 1st. Shoot actually was higher 1975 fps, pressure with a tight cold barrel I guess. 2nd. Drops to 1816. 3rd- 1856. 4th- 10th- 1870-1890. Not bad. Yes. I watch all the 22wmr video. I wanted to chronograph anyway. Then you said a ES of 200fps and SD pretty high. Got my curiosity going. That weekend I did a cold bore to 10shot group 3sec between rounds. You were right on all accounts. The Cci did tighten up once worm. One shot was 2090fps . I will be buying a crimping tool and work on that. Thank you
Hi Mark, I'm a bit perplexed with your commentary on this one. Surely you're not referring to simply a bore that's cold resulting in this level of inaccuracy, no? Mean to say, uncertainty as it pertains to atmospherics is the bulk of the problem with your description of a cold bore shot. I can tell by looking at your equipment and gear that the majority of your rifles shoot essentially identical POI all else equal be it the 1st shot or the 10th. I know from experience that with a well put together rifle, I expect no point of impact difference between my first shot and second. Or so minute as to be irrelevant. Not a cold, freshly clean bore. That generally is a bit off. Maybe an inch on a good shooter. Perhaps I'm dumb, but I don't believe you defined cold bore correctly. More better would have been "first round hit". Simply a cold bore should do nothing but go where you're telling it to go. When I hear of someone struggling with cold shot inaccuracy my first advice is, your gun is broken. I'm sure you understand. Anyway, as you say... Cheers...
Very good Mark. Wind is very difficult. Especially an up or down slope when shooting in the mountains. The bullets ride the wind like a surfboard rides a wave. I do find, with experience that if you do your due diligence with data inputs (best guess even) you can in fact be confident of well under MOA out to a thousand or so. Beyond that, firing azimuth is very relevant and the vertical wind component over terrain will bite you. I can only speak from my own experience which is essentially in very steep terrain with very low density altitudes. Sea level in Alaska on a normal day can be over negative -1,500 feet below sea level.
I always explained perfect cold bore shots as this : They’re incredibly easy for an experienced shooter . Simple . Not hard at all ! ….. So long as God himself loads your ammo Himself and gives you a complete cheat sheet of every possible condition that could impact your bullets flight trajectory on its way to the target. Without that, You better enjoy the ones you do hit throughout your life because they’re few and far between . Especially past a mile . More impressive to me is the tightest grouping you can get at those long ranges. Mark, some of your groups at elr and ulr ranges are more impressive than most of your videos combined. They completely cast a shadow on everything because they’re so beautifully grouped. And somehow, you’re so humble about it . Truly, truly amazing work over the years. And especially Sam. We all know that a great shooter is almost nothing without a even better spotter . And you two together are masterful! Can’t wait for see what 2024 and beyond holds for you guys . I’m still praying that you all squash the gun control movement over there. I wish you all the best! Cheers
