I often imagine that Aman'Thul wasn't "The first to awaken" or whatever. But more so, as the embodiment of Order, was unable to allow chaos and disorder exist. I toy with the idea that the Pantheon is basically all dominated by Aman'Thul as a way for him to achieve absolute order across the universe. As if each of the six cosmic forces all had their own 'Titan' and were meant to rule the cosmos in harmony. But the one who cannot bear to witness disorder decided to take control of it all. Would be a fun idea if the fact of Titans being born from World Souls was actually prisons where they are re-ordered and dominated. When the domination is complete, the Titan is allowed to awaken, and take a seat with the rest of the Pantheon.
The biggest thing that always made me doubt the whole 'Sargeras wants to find Azeroth to destroy it,' was the fact that he finally found it, and yet DIDN'T destroy it. Sure, he may have had other intentions for the world, but based on how Chronicle describes his ideology, it definitely shows something was off.
@preds43 oh no, I get that part. It's the part in Chronicle where it's described that Sargeras wants to destroy everything (including corrupted worlds like Azeroth). My point was Legion was the clear proof the Titans lied. Or at the very least, weren't telling the whole story.
@@Jason-ji8ql I was actually talking about the Scepter of Sargeras lore-book from Legion, which talks about Sargeras being enraptured by Azeroth, and how he wants her to be "his", etc.
@@Jason-ji8qlthe weird thing for me is the fact that we save one titan from sargeras's influence but we are told by the titans we need to slay argus. Seems kinda wrong that theyd kill their own kind so easily. Especially after just saving another one.
Pyro, where you are talking about why the planet is red instead of Sargeras. Could be that he temporarily had to expend a lot of his energy in order to cleave the planet. He transfered his heat to the planet and temporarily cooled off.
Following the Norgannon thread and since the Curse of Flesh might not be a curse after all, I feel like Malygos wasn't mad. He just learned the truth, and we can even say the same with Medivh and Azshara, and anyone that dabbles in Magic. Light and Void are interchangeable as seen with the Naaru, and Life and Death is a question of balance, Order and Disorder are absolutely linked, and they were way before Sargeras made it clear. And the Pantheon of Order, by trying to force Order over everybody, are about to get hit in the face by the scale of Balance. Sargeras tried to break the cycle and failed because of us. So the Sword. Was it aimed to kill Azeroth because we're following Order, or was it aimed to break the prison of Azeroth to awaken us to the truth? I feel more and more the latter. And Sargeras knows well that the Pantheon of Order will use Domination to bind him, it was a bold move, but a necessary one for the long run. This world is a prison, like Sylvanas said. So maybe, juste maybe, the Primus is not evil, but another toy in the Titans Order. Just like a weapon manufacturer. I first thought Eonar was behind everything. But she wears a crown. It might be a bad one. And it is Domination >>Magic
14:00 They already did and we have firsthand evidence! "I have seen worlds bathed in the Maker's flames, their denizens fading without so much as a whimper. Entire planetary systems born and razed in the time that it takes your mortal hearts to beat once. ... A million-million lives wasted."
Alot of really interesting questions to ask regarding the lore. Are the Forge of Wills and Forge of Originations just mechanical versions of Old god bodies? They are attached to the planet, produce life forms from within it, and are made to influence a world souls growth. If the titans are supposed to be naturally order aligned, why do they need the forges to nurture Azeroth to an order path?. It could be possible that the Titans could have evolved to be pure versions of their respective elements, but were infused with order by Amanthul, who seems to be a pure order titan. Is Azeroth already a lost cause? The Jewel on the Scepter of Sargeras is made in the image of Azeroth's eye when it stared back at Sargeras. And it appears as an Old god eye.
did anyone notice, in the panning shot to the sword at 12:08 there are stars in the water off to the left side? like blizzard says they don't put things in cinematics for no reason.
I have always known Norgannon was the most powerful... He's the only one breadcrumbed since Vanilla... the OTHERS ones are the ones just there. Norgannon controls the discs containing the libraries of recorded history.
crazy thing what if the old gods and titans were switched as in the old gods were protecting Azeroth to begin with from the titans but the titans "won" and told history from how they wanted it ect
Nobble is correct to an extent. All elves, humans, dwarves, and gnomes come from either direct or indirect action of the Titans. The curse of flesh wouldn’t work if it didn’t have Titan constructs to effect. Night elves, High/Blood, and the night borne wouldn’t exist without the well of eternity.
I mean, if you believe in the second law of thermal dynamics, everything evolves into further disorder through entropy. It's pretty likely we going to get re-originated.
Well, it's important to note that entropy isn't a force that operates independently and absolutely. Entropy can be actively managed and controlled by intelligent agents, like humans, through technology or even biology (as creating life is ordering chaos). So, while entropy plays a role in the natural order of things, our ability to understand and manipulate it allows us to create order and structure amidst the chaos. So, technically, we are constantly re-ordering the universe we reside in already.
@@willythemailboy2 yeah for sure, no disagreements here, but that local system can be maintained through local energy expenditure. Sure we are always creating entropy elsewhere in the universal system but (at least while life is interested) order can be maintained.
@@willythemailboy2 Yeah ok and? As we have established energy can be pushed to other non-local systems naturally through entropy. This doesn't necessitate any disorder at the local system.
If the two children from Azeroth were indeed Sargeras and Elune, that tried to help and maybe reached out to the titans that were around, we could fit the "The Light struck a bargain with the enemy of all" quote in this. The light, Sargeras, struck a bargain with the enemy of all, time, Aman'thul. Time is everythings enemy. With it you die, crumble, erode, evaporate, decay etc. Without it nothing, even time itself can do anything anymore. If time ceases to exist, it's over. Nothing moves, nothing changes, everything stops eternally. Now, what bargain could Sargeras has made with Aman'thul? I become your champion, you have my power and in return you free Argus. Sargeras was then titanforged, dominated, got the mourneblade and split Argus in half. One half went straight into the mourneblade and the other to the shadowlands, to his keeper Zovaal. Zovaal now got Argus memorys and understands what the Titans were doing. That they not only helped shape the shadowlands, they ordered it and reality too, but this system was flawed. He stops being the Arbiter, get's chained by the Primus and the others and send down to the maw. After some time Argus soul returns to his cleaved planet were Sargeras later found it again. He understood what has happened and broke free of the domination, maybe due to some high stress level, similar to what we are told happened to the earthen that were probably to close to Azeroths core.
Something that just came to mind... Order is afraid that Void will corrupt Azeroth and that if that happened, she would burst from the planet as a dark titan, a titan of the void. So, doesn't that mean the Pantheon are titans who burst out from their own planets as Order Titans. Meaning their worlds were conquered by Order before they were even born. So making a cosmic force titan is like having a stock pile of nukes. The titans aren't the true beings of order, they are a weapon of it. So there likely is an Order plane of existence much like the shadowlands and there are likely even higher beings in Order than the titans, like the Eternals in Death, aka Titan ++.Just because they are Titan++ doesn't mean they are stronger than the titans, it just means they are older than them in terms of the cosmic timeline And as for Sargeras. he probably learned that he was Ordered and counteracted it using Fel, thus fully gaining free will. And then he found out that the original state of a slumbering titan is like that of Argus or Azeroth, the glowly fire thing is an uncorrupted Titan, free of all cosmic influence. And Sargeras thought, if I can't stop us from becoming slaves to one force or another, better death than servitude for these sleeping titans. And him stabbing the planet was his attempt to wake her up early while she was still uncorrupted to prevent any force from having her. She would be strong enough when awake to easily defeat all the other forces in their attempts to turn her.
if the pre-requisite for re-origination is the the loss of order in lieu of chaos, and the titans “need” order in order to find / nurture more of their kind, is it possible that the void lords and titans have similar origins? And that world souls can become either depending on the levels of chaos / order?
in b4 Elune is locked up in the moon keeping Azeroth in a shroud of aether-I mean mana or azerite or something to prevent the void from bringing the Final Days
Why are we using FFXIV logic in WoW? Elune has made her presence known in the franchise. The moon is where she conduits her power. Why would she be trapped inside of it?
also. SO...The titans burned worlds ( reoriginated ) they tried using Argus powers to bring back their fallen and they found another ( Azeroth ) which they wanted to take as well. And when ARgus screamed out for Help the two bright lights that answered was infact Elune and Sargereas....I mean.
On everything being prospective, thats literally the Warcraft story. Horde have their own PoVs. Alliance has their own PoV. Every faction has its own PoV. I find that people have a hard time understanding when someone says something if its from their PoV and not all Azeroths. Also I don't think the Titans are Titans, they don't look like the titans they look like Algalon the Observer. Unless I missed something. Azeroth and Argus if they are Titans it means the Titans aren't.
Also with the Argus story in the book. It is Iffy but that could be the titans doing all of that and the Legion found it after, since apparently the titans knew where Argus was and had been there before. Imagine you live in a time where the Burning Legion and Titans are myths and you have to decide which one was chaining someone up and binding them to their will. Would if be the Burning Legion who just kills everything or he Titans what 'DEMAND' their sort of order or they will wipe worlds out. AI would just be rambling but its an interesting throught.
I don't know if anyone's talked about this, but I have my own little theory on the titans place, and subsequently order's, on the cosmology map. I heavily suspect the placement of order being closer to void, and disorder closer to light, is on purpose. We see light and void at the top and bottom, creation and destruction of all things. Of course, life is placed next to creation (light) because life needs to have a place to settle to grow its own power, which is supplied from light. Death is its antithesis - it wants the end of life, so would obviously be placed next to void as void wants the destruction of all things, including life. They all have the same goal. So why would order be placed next to void, and disorder to light, following this pattern? Think about it - the absolute end of all things, where no choices can be made differently, no evolutions, no diverging pathways - this is the literal perfect embodiment of order. Nothing changes, and nothing changes forever. Disorder needs change, and therefore needs to have some form of creation to create the conditions needed for change. Order is inherently aligned with destruction. Disorder is inherently lined with creation (though due to its volatile nature of turning everything that isn't fel into itself, it was never going to win the cosmic game, especially when its main champion in Sargeras was compromised by void to destroy everything anyway). Neither are good for Azeroth as we know with the legion and are discovering with the titans. None of the forces are, they need to be balanced away from the extremes to keep Azeroth, and reality, safe - every single force including life (the genesaur would have destroyed most of Stormwind, and likely the alliance as an effect) and light (scarlet crusade, alternate Yrel, maybe Turalyon in the future) and order (look at what this video is lmao) have endangered us in some way, and I think the latter two are going to be big antagonists to come after Midnight releases. Also, btw, order is winning. Whilst the bronze dragonflight is protecting the One True Timeline and keeps changes from happening, Order will always be winning in the end.
If the death pantheon each had keys that when combined had access to Zereth Mortis, could it be possible the titans hold the keys to Zereth Ordus. Could it be possible that Sargeras was needed to open access to it, and does Azeroth hold a key.
When Norgannon sent a constellar to reorigonate Azeroth, we retaliated by fighting and it surprises him and delays it. Since then, by defending Azeroth, we have been doing what the Titans wanted us to do, either knowingly or unknowingly. Dragonflight has supplanted questions in us, the Dragonflights and even Tyr himself. What will happen if, in the process of defending Azeroth, we are in opposition to the Titans and their mechanations.
I love how Pyro is basically just the (pre-scandal) Alex Jones of Warcraft lore; crazy crackpot theories that, after a bit of time, turn out to be true. And no one acknowledges that what he's been cooking in the kitchen is what's going on, and acts surprised when they look back and see he called it years ago.
Oh hey, you mentioned the two bright lights being An'she and Mu'sha too hah I just realised that was a possibility a couple days back but I dunno if you saw it in the discord. I quite like the implications of it
So we refer to Azeroth as a world soul, but couldn’t she technically be the fist star soul being. It’s the uncontrollable cosmic wonder of the sun that breeds opportunity for creation, everything centers around it. Azeroth is a Star soul, that’s why she is different from the rest, why she is so hard to control. I think the reason why we are playing out the true time line, is because this is their best chance at getting what they what. However I feel we may have a divide with who sides with then titan when they return. KEY CHOICES will be made to decide the ultimate outcome and it will be close. I wouldn’t be surprised if the last raid, in the last encounter, we wipe by design, and by some last ditch effort the aspects or more specifically Norzdomu sacrifices themselves and sends us back in time, to finish what we stared. 🤷🏻♂️
I never questioned the Titans willingness to push the delete button, nor do I hold it against them. Preventing Old God "corruption" makes sense. But with the newer lore I now like to question their reasons, and motivations. And in that respect I hope the Titans are not blatantly the bad guys or the good guys when we're on the end of the world soul saga. I hope we're left with a story that can leave some players thinking the Titans were right, and others left thinking the Burning Legion was right. Let some think our actions in the Shadowlands were correct, and others think that no Zovaal was actually right all along. It's an impossible challenge to expect the writers to deliver on such a complex story telling and have it be satisfying but like I said I would be really happy if that's what we got.
what i would do to have pyromancer in a 2h interview with chris metzen.. asking the REAL questions, the questions noooooo other "lore" content creator ever have asked.
Do you know Greek mythology? The world started with Titans. Like Kronos. He ate his kids. Then Zeus (and his brothers Hades and Poseidon together with him? im not sure if i remember correctly) defeated Kronos. And when Kronos was defeated then the Olympic gods Zeus, Poseidon and Hades ruled the world.
I always wondered if they came from another galaxy that they’ve already ordered and now they are trying to start with our galaxy. Maybe that’s why their own account of history is so different than maybe what their actual history is.
31:38 The artwork always reminded me of the cover of "War Master" by the band "Bolt Thrower" (warning: its a bit bloody) ..now that i think about it, they could have been inspirited by Conan
i wonder if whatever azeroth is is like eevee, where what they grow up into is dependent on environmental exposure, and as such what one that was exposed to all the environments at once becomes
I’ve always just assumed titans were giant pools of mana that randomly coalesced in the twisting nether that became sentient beings like the potion of the sun well that became a woman and fell in love with a blue dragon.
I've probably been way too harsh on Nobbel over the years. To be fair I was probably more upset with Blizzard screwing up the lore via expansions and just being a shitty company overall and letting it out on him, but at the same time Nobbel seems like the sort of guy that can rehash the lore but not really speculate on it...that or he's lost the ability to do so and I don't really blame him after what Bliz has done over the years. I'm one of those Warcraft fans who got hooked from WC3 and then deep dived into the lore via wowwiki/pedia so anyone else who was also into the lore I was instantly a fan of (including Nobbel). I just feel like Bliz has ultimately let us all down and left a sour taste in the mouths of lore heavy fans. Nobble, imho, seems to have suffered a lot from all this and I just can't find myself stimulated by his content anymore; nothing he says feels fresh to me and even when he is just recapping stuff I just don't feel like he really has the passion for it anymore. Again I'm probably about to be way too critical of him, but he just seems like a guy who got popular from his lore content when the lore was good, but has no idea what to do when it's shit like it's been for the last few years. Again, just my 2 cents and I'm probably been too harsh, but it's just how I feel.
I don't understand what part of "perspective" did lore content makers of wow not completely understand? It's as if they got hit in their ego when they were told chronicles is told from the perspective. It's like they completely still deny the idea of it happening or being a thing, let alone telling them that chronicles is written by Norgannon, you know the HISTORIAN RECORDER TITAN?
29:22 between the "Speaker" from Zerth Mortus using draconic to speak to us & how the red dragons burned away the plague its looking more and more like Sargarus is some kind of draconic being.
Hearth stopne always does some spoilers, Like galakron and dragon packs just before DF lounch, and even some "Good caracters" in wow that were villain in HS than year later they went "bad " in wow too.
What if the Titans only exist in reality AS WORLD SOULS, and the only way Titan's can enter our world and awaken is to destroy the worlds they are within, and whenever Aman'Thul awoke his brothers and sisters, he did by process of elimination and awoke non-order Titans whom he kept in stasis or something, or turned them into what the old gods are now? Fun idea.
OK here me out zereth ordis got destroyed and they found azeroth a being of immense power sleeping and they take the pieces of it and basically rebuild it there right on her well the old gods were there so that needed to be dealt with before that could happen that had some complications in itself so they get imprisoned.
Titans are what Old Gods are, as in they are the same kind of soldier in the cosmic battle of powers? Is this power behind them this un-personal thing of single minded direction? What if Azerothis that kind of being, the source power of this realty. Also that thing about humans on the planet being titans thing is just partial truth, the titan construct races are more the mix of all three sources in the battle for Azeroth... Imo.
You have some great ideas and opinions! I just wish you’d edit your own video where you discussed your points while using small clips from Nobel to support your arguments. By watching his entire video unedited, you are removing our need to watch his video to learn more on the topic, and as much as I’d love to hear all your thoughts on the topic, I can’t support a reaction video, sorry man
Tbf wow is really annoying about perspective story telling. It’s not that it’s from a perspective. It’s that we don’t even know if it’s even true in the frist place. It’s it’s true from a point of view, that’s fine. But we don’t know if it’s even true. Its like narrative blue balls.
You can try to have fun trying to theorize the narrative threads of what will one day occur only for some people to either disregard it outright or just not care. People can claim bad writing or disagree with a direction all they like. At least the better ones are trying to contribute rather than tear down. Meanwhile the rest just don't care. Better to just leave people, much like the many characters in WOW, in the dark at this point.
why would I be scarred at the titans shooting a lazer at Sargeras when he is about to consume the world XD I mean if ya wanna try talking him gently out of it good luck xd
Hey dude, watching you eat in these videos makes me feel that making them is more of an inconvience to you or that you're forcing yourself to make them. It's a little off-putting
