Something Still Feels Off With AMS2 Physics... PART 2 

Glad you enjoyed it!

what does 2007 have to do with this there is no 2007 car in AMS2 and i'm not saying all slip is bad, also with these more modern F1 cars drifting them like a rally car shouldn't be the fastest way, the lock-ups also should be more hard to control it's way too easy. Just google something like "why F1 cars don't drift" atleast from what I read it shouldn't really be a viable strategy. (I also have "recreated" the 2007 Hamilton and Räikkönen pole laps on my channel in AC and I think the driving looks really similar to IRL and lap times are the same, no weird drifting in those, some slideyness yes, but not as over the top as in AMS2)

Also Kimi has posted a picture of himself driving AC to instagram. Haven't heard any real F1 drivers playing or complementing AMS2. (there's also pictures of Alonso playing AC, and Max saying RSS hybrid formulas feel alright but the differential is a bit off on a stream.

@@MotorsportMinded Obviously, AC is way more popular and has a stable build. Are we also going to count the times Lando Norris and Leclerc complimented the F1 games yet their physics clearly are not par? There are no 2007 cars, but if you knew other f1 cars than the modern ones, you would know that they behave about the same as this one. I do not see any point in your video where you end up correcting the car so I have no idea why you mention sliding. The little amount of slip angle you get is fast in real life as well, just not abused because it destroys the tyres - and I agree that the tyres should overheat faster to punish this. As for the lap recreations of Kimi and LH, you are delusional. Your cars look planted and have very little correction compared to theirs, it's not even close. If you cannot see the difference in car attitude between their laps and yours, then I do not know why we are even debating handling.

@dpro1995 Lando and Leclerc complementing F1 is just because they are sponsored, that is quite obvious Lando has also stated that F1 games are games not simulations, and that there are way better simulators available. Saying that AMS2 has everything right when there is literally no real Formula drivers who have said anything good about it is kind of delusional, if it was as good as you're making it to be there would be real drivers praising it. Yet there's none. And yes I can say that the 2007 mods in AC are not perfect, but I do think they are better than what AMS2 has to offer, and the VRC Formula Alpha 2023 (CSP), is lightyears ahead of F-ultimate g2 (I also heard a sound where Max stated that "AC, the original not ACC is the best simulator out there" I can't 100% confirm if it was AI but I'll try to find it, prolly from a stream) Edit : Found it, those were not his exact word but close, someone played the sound in GamerMuscles stream (or whatever his name is, I do believe it's from some stream originally and not AI because of the pauses and stutters he does) : ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-v8uN8g6PoW0.htmlsi=OQJ4Vwssjfygkax6

The player count is also dropping at an alarming rate so I guess most people aren't as impressed as you with the physics, peak concurrent player count was 1666 two weeks ago, now barely a 1000. I'm predicting -200 more in a week. Quite obvious people are looking for a real simulator instead of easy simcadey racing

Absolutely right, this method is not a viable for races. The tyres wouldn't last more than a few laps in a race. In races you could probably try to use the excessive sliding to your advantage without locking the wheels, that however could be a risky strategy because you might lose control of the car, but practise makes perfect.

@@MotorsportMinded yes for me ams2 the physics model is spot on. I’m at the lower end of the skill level so being able to control a car that is sliding is a big bonus. I guess better drivers would like to be penalised. I’m just waiting for the vintage le mans content to come out. Hopefully soon

Whether it destroys tyres and not useful during a race is besides the point. The sliding is just really weird. The physics are off. Go watch Schumacher's onboard laps of 1998 Argentina. He's sliding like a madman in order to try and extract the laptime BUT the way the car slides, goes into slides, comes out of slides, acts/reacts during slides is COMPLETELY different than the way it happens in AMS2's physics engine.

Isn't that more of a vintage formula driving technique? You're right I don't completely understand it. I atleast haven't seen more modern F1 cars lock their tyres and do epic drifts for each corner? (I'm also not really talking about the vintage cars in this I just don't drive them, I should've clarified that)

I would agree but it can and is applied in any era of motorsport by those skilled in the art. For sure the glued to the track F1 cars of today require less four wheel drift to get round some corners/turns, but for me, are only worth driving when you can. Hence why AMS2, in my opinion, has it right!

@RonniePeterson the problem is that in AMS2, atleast with the modern cars it hardly requires any skill, it is very easy to control and you can just do it for every corner. ( I also do believe in your case AMS2 might be the best option, but not really for people like me who are more into the more modern glued F1 cars :D)

It is easy because modern F1 cars are easy to drive and before you say it they are easy to drive fast! This applies to whether you choose to drift them or not, in my opinion. They are not my first choice of car for a challenge to drive but please let me know which tracks you currently head the leaderboards on, if you indeed, find them so easy to drive yourself, so that I might see if I can match your times?@@MotorsportMinded

@RonniePeterson Interlagos 7th on leaderboards with F-V10 g2, and Interlagos F-ultimate G2 12th. I actually meant that the drifting with these is too easy and controllable (Also none of the laps on top of the leaderboards are driven cleanly everyone is drifting and driving out of the track)

I do believe that if the physics were as good as the fanboys say there would be drivers playing or praising it. AMS2 is just so easy that I don't believe it's good for practice the it's very hard to lose control of the car even when driving very aggressively. In AC you actually have to use your head when driving and can't just slide/drift around with no worries of losing control (talking about the more modern F1 cars here, not all cars/classes have problems like this)

@@MotorsportMinded Tbf, iRacing had real drivers playing it way before iRacing started refining their physics, and rFactor2 hosted some major events with many irl drivers even though rF2's multiplayer is a joke. Hell, F1 drivers played many of the F1 2X games, and those are simcades! I'd say drivers playing these games doesn't have to do with their quality or accuracy of their physics, but with how much money a developer is willing to pump into marketing amd branding. iRacing and Cody's F1 games and rF2 have pumped a whole lot of money into publicity, hence the attention from drivers. AMS2, much much less so. Many people still perceive AMS2 as "Project Cars 3 but made by Brazilian guys", hence not playing it. Just like with BeamNG, who also doesn't focus on publicity and I'd guess is still regarded as the "funny car crash" game despite it being the most realistic vehicle physics simulation out there.

@@HoriaM29 Well F1 2X games were played, a lot because they are sponsored. I think they would be in deep sh*t if they said anything bad about it. Lando for example has said that F1 2X are just games, not simulators. And rFactor2 and iracing have just been kind of the only competitive games where multiplayer has been even decent in the past. But the thing is that a lot of F1 drivers actually praise AC, that it's great for practice (Alonso used AC to practise before Qatar and Max has said that AC is one of the best sims for practise), and I know that Max for example is deep in to sim racing, I would guess he knows about AMS2, since I have seen pictures of him playing the original AMS. AMS2 just feels too easy compared to AC, when I do my comparison videos with F1 cars I usually do 5 laps on AMS2 and atleast 20 in AC to hit the same lap time. And I do lose control of the car, a lot in AC, but almost never in AMS2. So I don't think it would be as good for practise for real drivers. (heres max saying the stuff about ac : ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-v8uN8g6PoW0.htmlsi=BJdN_tehnSLFt9Ew ) Also he has praised the Formula Hybrid mods which are lightyears ahead of F-ultimate G2

@@MotorsportMinded Lando has also said, repetitively, that the Mac F1 car (or was it the Merc?...or both?) drives like it only has 3 wheels since iRacing's physics is often so bad at/over the limit. There's barely any control of the vehicle when the rear gets into a slip angle that's more than "a couple" degrees unlike real life.

What you meeeeeean?

@@MotorsportMinded That's not unconventional driving, that's pretty much what you hear or see from any fast driver is to abuse track limits where you can lol. That's probably one of the reasons track limits exist in the first place (well not to damage your car first) is because driving as wide as possible and as close to the apex as possible gives you an advantage Maybe it's not punishing enough? Sure. But it's far from unconventional or from what you shouldn't do to get faster laps, which you absolutely should regardless of a sim Idk if "other sims" includes rF2 but hoooh boy, if you looked at some fastest laps on that sim you can do double of what you do there in AMS2 Even with all that your laps still seem to be slower in general than equivalent laps in Assetto, dunno what that says about either game's driving and whatnot

@xenoyparxi I mean yes you do use the track limits as much as you can but they are completely broken in this track atleast, that should not count as a valid lap my whole car is literally out of the track. And when a game has a tt leaderboard it kind of just ruins the fun out of that. But yes almost all games have atlest some problems with track limits. I don't really play RF2 much but the vanilla AC, ACC and even F1 23 don't really allow this kind of abuse though. (but about the lap times being different in AC and AMS2, I think it mostly has to do with the cars just being so different, the formula cars are usually based on for example a certain year, but not necessarely even the same car. And some of the difference has to also do with the very different approach you have to take when driving each sim, I don't think comparing the lap times really tells you anything.)

Yes I do believe the older feel much better

The formula junior still slides and is then caught by an invisible hand, and sliding around locking still nets faster laps. That's not accurate in low power classes, where momentum is key.

I think that's where this game shines. Older F1 niche. Just like Race Room is touring cars, Assetto is road cars, , and ACC GT3s. I don't think a sim as wide arching as AC/AMS2 can nail everything perfectly using the same engine or physics. @@MotorsportMinded

@@kr1egquecksilber171 That's true each engine has their own strengths and they just suit some cars better than others.

Have to say no to iracing, just the pricing seems so crazy compared to other sims, and considering LFM is free. Also doesn't everyone say that iracing is like driving on ice? that seems to be the popular consensus.

​@@MotorsportMinded I've personally never heard its like driving on Ice with Iracing, and it wouldnt make sense for actual F1 drivers (like Max) to be grinding it out if that were the case. When I used to play (mostly the free cars) I didnt notice that behaviour . Honestly when it comes to the F1 games, I'd imagine they are in no way a benchmark for a sim to strive for, the esports looks basically like a solved game with the pros essentially reaching the skill ceiling of the game, unlike any other serious sim I've seen.

@@MotorsportMinded With that being said especially with the older generation of F1 cars I do notice the slippery nature in the rear.

@@TheLinkrules123 Can't really say anything about iracing, I've got no idea. Seems like people always say that the grip is kind of weird. And yes I don't think a real sim should be like codies F1 games, but I do think that you can't abuse the physics in F1 games to your advantage like in AMS2. And to respond to your earlier comment about the slip angle, read the comment from @tengusimulations on this video I think he responded to that very well

iRacing has a very flawed tire model. RF2 is currently the best physics stuck in a poor game.

Not denying that, sliding just feels a bit exaggerated in AMS2 feels like I can do these long easily controlled slides, and outright drifting which shouldn't really work with Formula cars

Villleneuve was suffering from crap Michelins at the time.

are you really comparing a go-kart to F1 car? Yes I have driven one what does that have to do with anything, yes go-karts slide? Also has any real F1 driver ever praised or played AMS2? I've seen Alonso playing AC using the RSS Formula Hybrids (he posted a picture somewhere) and Verstappen said that the RSS Formula Hybrids feel alright on a livestream when asked about it, but said that the differential is a bit off. (Also yes the formula cars slide in AMS2 like go-karts but I don't think it should be like that xD, F1 cars should't slide like a go-kart and drift like a rally car)

@MotorsportMinded I mentioned karts because I know it is the most common. The behaviour of the rubber against the tarmac is essentially the same for all cars. And yes, the current F1 cars do slide, and a lot. You can check for example this year's race in Austria (Redbull ring), in turns 7 and 8 how Norris's mclaren was sliding chasing the cars in front during the sprint (I say this because the camera focused very well when he was doing it and the commentators mentioned that Norris was going to the limit). The cars slide, and have an exaggerated yaw. For example, in turn 18 at spa, there is usually a camera on the kerbs and when the cars pass you can see that despite their high speed they enter with a lot of yaw, twisting and the aerodynamics squeezing the car on the tarmac. Same effect as the video I showed you before of Ralph Schumacher's turn 3 at Montmelo. Also you can see massive sliding on barrichelo onboard at turn 10 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-vMaNTT8un2Y.htmlsi=HBlK58_NCdi5xlgu

Yes, sliding exists, not denying that. AMS2 just feels too over the top for me. I've "recreated" a lot of pole laps on this channel from both games, and I just feel like AC is always more like the actual pole lap in terms of the driving. AMS2 just doesn't get the sliding right in my opinion, and the drifting in AMS2 is just outrageous. It shouldn't be nearly that easy to literally drift Formula cars, like their rally cars. (But I'm not an expert of course I don't know everything, would be nice to hear opinions from someone who has actually driven F1 cars) I also think that people who are usually in the top 5% of leaderboards in these more highly contested track/car combos will know the how bad the physics really are.

For some other classes, I do feel that the physics are top-tier. However, in my opinion, most of these more modern Formula cars don't feel good (although I generally like more modern F1 cars and drive them in every other sim, they just don't feel right in AMS2). GT3 feels pretty solid, and the vintage/retro formula cars feel more spot-on, at least in my opinion, and the go-karts feel pretty accurate too. I actually might make my next video about the classes that I feel are more accurate with their physics.

@@MotorsportMinded karts are absolutely the best comparison to make for f1.. power to weight ratio. Many f1 drivers came from karts.. or even still play with them off season or just for fun.

In a way it is kind of fun, and takes a bit off practice. I've improved my lap times quite a bit by hitting better drifts, since this video

Driver61 comparison: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-6iAc3qm0d-I.html Picture of Kimi playing AC : preview.redd.it/eu3j6j5g3cp01.png?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=c50019ffe9ad5d88b05b3e5f8c1824f328a3ddc4 Ricciardo driving AC : ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-utZnaLI3vLA.html&ab_channel=SRV Hulkenberg picture of AC : preview.redd.it/osay3tsfqv781.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=8d63261a61f568606af5a990ef815c6c7a42f378 Max Verstappen talking about Formula Hybrids : clips.twitch.tv/TsundereFaithfulOcelotFloof-4URCBc0GGkfZfMfK Alonso training for Qatar with Formula Hybrid : preview.redd.it/4pb3d3x0dcrb1.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=3d1992026638391b3b02552edd2070f3dbf6ee63

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-v8uN8g6PoW0.htmlsi=OQJ4Vwssjfygkax6 , Max Verstappen praising Assetto Corsa (sorry if the bald man is talking over someone donated and played that sound in his stream, I do not know where that is from originally probably his own stream, it does sound authentic I do believe it's real)

Your argument of because drivers have played AC therefore its better than others (in this case about AMS2) is just wrong. Even if they compliment it or say its a good game (all sims are games). It says more about the popularity and marketability of the game than anything and unless you have max sit down and play AMS2 and also have him give his opinion of it, you don't know what he thinks of it. Whether he plays sims or not and you guess he might know about it but does not play it is irrelevant. Fact is you do not know! And just because drivers play games doesn't actually say anything of the game. They are just playing it. Lewis has said he loves to play super Monaco GP II and i haven't heard him say anything about AC or AMS2 or Iracing. That must mean that they're just not good or better than super Monaco GP II or he dosen't want to play them and we should all play super Monaco GP II then right? Do you see how stupid that sounds? And if you truly believe Alonso was really "training" for Qatar with AC and not using it like it is, as a game to play and compete with his "fast friends" then there's really no point in me even typing all of this 🤣. If anything it points to the popularity of AC than anything. Actually believing that the man was " training" with AC when he would have done laps upon laps in a real simulator by a real F1 team to model their real F1 car with their own real time data is truly laughable. On the topic of realism, i don't see the point in a car being more realistic than another in games. Since we're trying to be elitist here, let's fully take it all the way. It is either realistic or it is not. Max, a three (two) times world champion saying the RSS car is good but the diff is wrong, and further goes to state why as someone who knows what the best of the current real cars feel like means the car is unrealistic. Not oh its better than this other car or better than this other game or close to the real one, its just flat out unrealistic (it dosen't behave like the real one), simple as. Same would go for any other car in any other sim. Also i'm sure you know the capability and kind of physics modelled by f1 team simulators is not something any of our potato chip pc's can run or simulate in real time. A GM clip is also the funniest thing i could expect to see here but i'm not shocked 😂. I'm subscribed to his channel and he's funny as hell but that's as far as i take it for, entertainment. Watching the video, it looks like time trail mode? And it looks like tyre wear is off?

@@khalidadisa2786 If Max says AC is one of the best simulators for practice I take his word for it. There is literally no one who has driven a Formula car and says AMS2 is good and I believe there is a reason for it, and the reason is that AMS2 is just more for fun. And yes it is time trial mode, tyre wear is usually off in time trials, but in no other sim can you do this weird drifting method even in time trial, it should not be a viable method of driving a modern Formula car, it kind of goes against the basic design principles of these cars. I mean i'm in top 5% in these highly contested car/track combos driving like moron, so I can't imagine AMS2 being good for practice. It is just a fun game to mess around in.

They wouldnt make it a lap before quitting. Lets be real.

Yes maybe I should have worded this differently, but the sliding in AMS2 is just so weird compared to anything else.

@@MotorsportMinded Absolutely, the sliding in AMS2 is most certainly weird and wrong. There's only so much a developer or "modder" can do by only updating vehicle and tyre FILES (essentially content updates). In order to truly make fundamental changes/updates, the underlying core physics engine and/or core tyre model needs working on - and Reiza have barely, if at all, touched the core PC2 physics engine and core PC2 tyre model the game runs on.

@@Spinelli__ Yes, but the RU-vid racers still laud the game...but they need content.

Yes I am not advocating for 100% realism, just that high downforce formula cars don't feel planted, but too slidey and weightless.

My lord, you're out of your depth in this conversation.

Yes! Nothing wrong with being a fun sim, it is a lot fun. But that's also my problem, when people start praising it as the most realistic when it feels nothing like the sims real drivers praise as the best. If I'm feeling competitive and wanting a more realistic driving experience AMS2 definitely isn't my go-to, but for fun racing against AI, it is my go-to

I believe there is a good reason why no formula driver has ever said anything about AMS2. The Formula physics just aren't great. Drivers definitely know about AMS2, I've seen images of Max playing AMS1 for example and he is very deep into simracing. Formula drivers (like Max) have praised AC though..

which is more realistic on AC based on real drivers experience? RSS or VRC?@@MotorsportMinded

@@hkr4life Haven't heard any of them mention VRC, but Max has said RSS Formula Hybrids are alright, and Alonso took a picture 'training for Qatar' with RSS Formula Hybrid

because l see all the reviews saying that VRC is better@@MotorsportMinded

What an amazing comment thank you, 100% on point as well. And yes I really do need to check the original ams, I've only heard great things about it

Just wanna ask, have you played AMS2 since the 1.5.3 update? I feel as if the issues you're talking about have definitely been minimised in the last updates - the cars only slide so far (expected amount of slip), but if you force it it *will* snap on you. Even the GT4, yes they are more slidey, but not to an extreme degree I'd say.

Indeed I am willing to agree with this. They have definitely improved but they still have a long ways to go.@@HoriaM29

Ams was a masterpiece in terms of FFB and physics. For me at least. Ams2 still feels like cars are floating, sliding and oversteering. After the last updates some things got better but just not there yet for all cars though. Still, i do enjoy playing AMS2 and support REIZA studio's for many other reasons. They do try their best.

@@Argy_V agreed!

AMS2 has improved but it still has ways to go, I've never really said anything about any sims physics before AMS2 the slideyness is just so off the charts, and it kind of ruins a lot of the cars for me. Yes the rear is a bit loose IRL but these cars almost feel like hovercrafts sometime

We've all seen hundreds of hours of high downforce cars drive around circuits even if we haven't driven them ourselves. None of that footage resembles what we see in AMS2.

It literally won't make a difference if the tyre wear is on or off if i'm just doing one lap, I could just restart test day after each lap, just like I do in TT. Also im not advocating for 100% realism, AMS2 just feels way too slidey and you can abuse it for your advantage.

@@MotorsportMinded you're missing the point entirely. Your entire argument is based around exploiting a game mode. You keep arguing that you don't see F1 drivers sliding and locking up like you to achieve their laps, but that is because they can't. They have to preserve their tires because they aren't trying to exploit a game mode like you are. If they fuck up a set of tires in qualifying that is a set they are now down for the race. They don't just get to hit restart like you're implying you'd do in test day. You're arguing a game isn't being realistic in its most unrealistic game mode. How do you not see the silliness in that logic?

@@DustySticks Maybe you are missing the point, high downforce cars should not be sliding and drifting around like this it literally goes against the design principles. This driving will not work in any other sims time trial. (the point of these videos is not the tyre wear and fuel usage, and I can drive like this for a lap or two in test day, it won't completely shred the tyres, but that is not the point i'm making)

@@MotorsportMinded ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-UoX9M2yuNTA.htmlsi=3N9Pd2g1tORKIbaG Joseph Newgarden would say otherwise when he says hustling an Indycar, slipping the tires, and pushing the limits of the tires is rewarded. Indycar my not be F1 levels of downforce, but it is a high downforce vehicle. I'm not going to waste my time arguing if AMS2 is the most realistic sim. These are all games, all of them do some things well and some things not so well. I just think arguing AMS2 is wrong IYO by using time trial as your proof is dumb because it is a game mode that at its core is not realistic. You and everyone that is into TT that gets to the top of the LBs no matter what sim is utilizing exploits to do so and every single sim has things that can be exploited to drop lap time.

@@DustySticks I'm not arguing about tyre wear still only about how slidey the car feels, and IndyCars actually feel good IMO just the modern F1 cars feel horrible and don't feel high downforce. especially F-ultimate g2 ( now find me a real driver praising AMS2 lmao)