Here I am more than a year after you shot this, thinking about buying an FS5 to replace my ailing NX5U, and you and Doug sold me. Thanks for this comprehensive discussion!
This is a great video. I'm so very glad that there are people like these men that would just go ahead and do all this work for me to watch and allow me to make a very informed decision. I love you, internet.
Hugh, one of the best and most level-headed talks I've seen on image making, and I'm very much a beginner with video. Big thanks to Doug for sharing his knowledge and time, really eye opening. Cheers.
Two of my favourite people, thank you so much for sharing and enlightening us humans. I's been a hell of a week, first seeing Phil, Nino and Johnnie in Photokina coverage, you two today, and tomorrow Tony and Matt in Photokina. And all of this through internet streaming. The wonderful industry we live in.
Around 32 minutes when the tiny tiny bugs are crawling on the green leaf I can see much more detail and the over all bug much better. :) Great talk with Doug. Thank you.
First off, very informative and fun. What the heck is it about the Zen of Sony Camera men? Between you, Doug, and Philip Bloom I could seriously listen to you guys talk about socks for two hours and be hypnotised. I think you guys are putting something in my coffee.
No real mention of the Atomos Shogun which also takes in Sony's raw protocol and records it to ProRes video. I really wish this was mastered in 4k and uploaded in 4k. The "4k" aspect of the raw upgrade is a massive feature selling point. Also, looking at the raw side, I'm really seeing the common SGamut-style green channel phase shift. Now,...raw protocol does not have actual "color" inside of it. It's got three grayscale channels with flags to tell a Shogun or Odyssey to assign RGGB values to them on the DeBayer process. Another way to say it is that it's the receiving device that assembles the sensor data into full color and ultimately into 12bit view able "video". It then drops 2 bits when that goes into 10 bit ProRes. Great video of you guys. Thanks for uploading this. Very interesting talk with you guys.
You're right, Cliff - since the Shogun doesn't record raw (and Doug already had the Odyssey), we pretty well left it at that. Doug did do a little more testing but basically got the same result. There's so much more that could be tested but in the end, I think the conclusion remains the same: for many folks raw won't add much, but for those who need it, best to start with a test before committing to the gear and the workflow. And first knowing RESOLVE cold. Personally, I'm waiting for Doug to create that "RESOLVE in three hours" course he muses about in this vid!
Actually, the Shogun Inferno takes in Sony fs raw at 60p and the Shogun Flame does raw at 30p as well as the original Shogun Shock at 30p. You can take it in raw and convert it to video into ProRes or move it into Cinema DNG. (although dng is still in beta release)
And I am happy to say that my "Resolve in three hours" training video has been released! Except that I was wrong, it actually took almost four hours to cover everything I wanted to teach. :-) Doug Jensen's Guide to Grading Sony S-LOG & RAW in DaVinci Resolve vimeo.com/ondemand/resolve
As usual Doug is the go to guy on Sony cameras. However, I think one thing that was missed in the summary is - if you have to shoot 4K on the FS5, particularly in SLOG3 then the RAW upgrade is probably worth it. Sure at 1080, where the native XAVC codec is working in 10bit 4:2:2 (so pretty much the same as the de-bayered pro res) then you aren't going to see a radical difference (though I thought I could see a lot more detail in the ProRes particularly during pans where lots of pixels are changing) - but at UHD 4:2:0, SLOG3 falls apart very quickly.
I've taken Doug's stock footage course as well as his SONY z90 and Panasonic S1H courses. He's the best teacher. If I make a fortune I'm going to buy him a Cadillac like Elvis.
I have an FS5 and currently shoot XAVC HD/SLog3/Pro, and I do use DaVinci Resolve to grade and then I perform a final edit in Edius Pro. I have to agree with Doug on using Resolve 12.5; it's the only way for me, and it's free ! I'm going to watch all Doug's videos with huge interest.
Hugh, holy crap.... this literally opened my eyes.... there is almost no distinguishable difference in image (i'm sure some of it thanks to youtube) except for slightly enhanced sharpness and brighter truer colors. Other than that, would it be worth a $3500 upgrade if you don't have the 7Q+? Not for me. Not for most. Maybe for someone who own an F65, F55, F5, FS7. or a professional indie movie or feature film. But honestly.... if you're not going to be spending months of color grading and post work, this is literally a no brainer... RAW is NOT for the unprofessional shooter in my opinion. It looks amazing, dont' get it wrong, but certainly not with that kind of jump in investment. THANK YOU sir as I was so concerned with my PIXE5 purchase only getting 10bit 4:2:2 and 12bit 4:4:4:4 XQ. I thought I was missing so much without having RAW and honestly this video, and thanks to Doug's testing, have truly shown me what is more important... getting the shot and the story... not the minute differences between RAW and ProRes. For pro's and a pro production yes RAW would be beneficial... for EVERYONE ELSE.... no, def not. Thank you so much for this!
Hey great video. I did want to point a few things out though fir those looking more at professional use. Once you get over 10bit and into raw the difference is in post fixability and flexibility of footage. When things on set go wacky perhaps you have a crazy green street light you can't turn off. Perhaps you just didn't light with enough contrast and really need to power window the crap out of things. At that point when you really start stretching the image, it will suddenly become night and day. Also note, prorez is not raw the internal codecs are also raw converted. Also note, you MUST add noise reduction in post. The FS5 adds noise reduction in its codecs, this is no different. Now I'm an IATSE 600 AC/dit so I'm really nitpicking. For the average user I think your absolutely right saying stick to prorez or for most just use the internal 10bit 422 to avoid that need for noise reduction (since it's a $995 upgrade to resolve). As a DP you can really get messed up by RAW use on Indy productions. Many will that say they will grade footage but don't have the resources to do it properly. Then you end up with a super grainy image that they tried to grade without even applying a LUT. So just another thought. All the best. :)
ArmoredCitizen Thanks for that! Yes, sometimes you can do everything right within budget, timeframe and situation and you'll still have to rely on post - great point!
Good stuff - thanks for sharing. I bought an FS5 to serve as a small, travel friendly camera with the knowledge that I could use a recorder if a job ever required it. Based on what I saw, I don't think I'll ever need it except maybe to improve my green screen work. Very curious how much better the raw output would be for keying.
Thanks so much Hugh, I am currently an a6300 shooter and was waiting for Sony's new full frame mirrorless (A73 or hopefully soon A7S3) but also considering going with the FS5 with RAW. But after seeing this and all other FS5 RAW videos on YT, it doesn't seem like there's a good reason (other than high framerates on FS5) to upgrade. If I'm going to go for 12-bit RAW, it looks like renting a C200 and an external recorder for CDNG is going to be the best bet for those certain situations where you actually need RAW and really good colors. It would be interesting to see an in depth review on C200 RAW vs FS7 RAW.
Hi guys, great of you 2 to take the time to do this test and interview. I hear you both drop the conclusion that there is not so much difference between the 1080p internal and 4k raw to proress. And bybthat say that Raw is not needed for everyone. I am a little confused cause the way I see it the footage was not recorded in Raw but had a raw output in 12 bit and was then compressed in prores 422 10bit on the 7Q+. So this is a comparison between 1080p internal and proress 422 10bit via external recording. Or am I wrong? A raw test would be to compare the 4k or 1080p internal vs the RAW 12bit DNG recording on the 7Q+. Also a great advantage to the raw recording is the ability for the 7Q+ to record 12bit raw dng at 60fps for as long as you like and 120fps for a few seconds. So please tell me of Im wrong but I dont think this is a RAW to internal comparison just yet.
Broodje Aap Film Let me share with you a piece of a thread from another site where Doug responds to a similar question. In a nutshell, Doug says that the difference in image quality is insufficient to justify the dramatically increased overhead. This: "I can't disagree with anything you've said here. Yes, CDNG may have yielded image quality differences not seen in the ProRes files, but after doing a few test shots with CDNG and seeing how huge the files were and how much harder it was to deal with them in post, I abandoned any thoughts of going down that path. There may well be a gain in picture quality, but the collateral costs are too huge for me to even want to test it to find out. Anyone who is that concerned about image quality probably should be using a camera more sophisticated than the FS5 anyway..."
Great review. Your honest opinion on the FS5 or the URSA Mini 4.6k? I think with the raw upgrade and getting an external monitor to record with the FS5, you just a few hundreds shy of the FS7. So with all things considered and heavily considering budget, which one do you choose: FS5, FS7, or URSA Mini 4.6k?
Thanks! I like the idea of Blackmagic -- and I like their people. But for what I do the FS5 with its light weight, built-in ND, 120 fps even if only in 1080, reasonable codec, better performance in low light, and Sony e-mount make it my first choice. I LOVE the URSA software interface, which blows the doors off the FS5. What kind of work do you do, and what are YOUR criteria?
Great video! I've been searching around for a while and can't seem to find any info on this subject, so let me ask this. Can the atomos shogun inferno record the raw stream from the fs5? Also, is the fs5 raw 12 bit? I feel like a may be asking a question that should be common knowledge for professionals. Lol But I have to know.
Professional? That would be Doug. But the answer is: the Inferno does not yet record RAW. Take a look through this thread, however, and you'll find great Cliff Totten's comments: he's using the Atomos to record the RAW stream in ProRes.
Hey Doug you mentioned that we should view our graded vision on a TV monitor. Could we do this simply by hooking up our laptop to the tv via hdmi? Or would you recommend exporting it onto a USB and playing it on the tv
With raw the real benefit is in the latitude for intense grading. It's also going to give you more room for exposure corrections. So doing a 'simple' grade that does not push the footage won't demonstrate the capabilities. Of that's all you're going to do, there's no point in shooting raw, just like photography. For grading raw is superior but only if you exploit it.
Agreed - RAW is a big help in clawing back exposure, but only when the exposure wasn't properly captured in camera. Extreme grading....Hmm... Ansel Adams' Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico just might be a great example. Exposed correctly, but then he drastically altered reality in the print by darkening the sky significantly... Would love to see other examples if you have any to share. We also wonder what the difference would be with lots of movement in the frame.
This is prores and not dng so not really showing what the raw can do here. Of course there's going to be a huge difference in quality and more importantly how far you can stretch the image in grade. The raw dng files contains massive information, and the internal fs5 is what.. 100mbs? Anyway thanks for a good talk
I know this is an old video and apologies if you covered this is (I did watch the full video however) but does the RAW from the FS5 give you more dynamic range? You mentioned that you have to use Slog 2 with raw which confused me because all raw I've heard of previously applies gamma setting afterwards. So does Slog 2 and 3 already capture the maximum dynamic range and is the main benefit of raw more colour and bit depth, better compression etc...?
Hi Connor, RAW does not give you more dynamic range than S-LOG provides, it just leaves more options to you in post for which gamma choice may be applied and how it is applied. But the overall dynamic range does not improve with RAW. The main benefit of RAW, on paper anyway, is that it allows you to record with a better codec and with less compression. But whether those things actually make a significant visual difference on screen after editing is a matter of debate --or how closely you want to examine the footage. The trade-off is that shooting RAW requires an external recorder, more hassle during the shoot, more data to wrangle, and you need a paid software upgrade. In my opinion, it ain't worth it. But that's just my opinion and other people are free to disagree. In fact, I'd much rather use a stock FS7 right out of the box than a fully-rigged FS5 with an external recorder and RAW license any day. :-)
Last time I looked, only the Odyssey 7q+ records the Sony FS5 RAW stream in RAW. The Atomos recorders can take the stream and record in ProRes or DNxHR. Has this changed?
By his own admission he exposed it incorrectly by over exposing, so as far as testing latitude this test is pointless. May as well just get a panasonic g7 if you're going to shoot locked down shots of plants with no need for latitude. I notice the highlight fringing issue on the in-camera version of the flame shot, but I also noticed goofy colour fringing on the raw to prores side. look on the top side of the wing mirror on the shot of the car coming towards the camera and there is loads of green and magenta fringing on the shot of the kayak. I'd like to see examples of actual raw with the fs5 but there doesnt seem to be any around.
For my purposes (documentary and sports) the only time I need to shoot raw (or s-log) are with scenes that actually contain a wide dynamic range. Interiors with windows in the background. Maybe a bright sky with subjects that aren't able to be front-lit with as much intensity to compete with white clouds. This is where having all that information really helps. Most of the scenes Doug was testing had little need for the wide dynamic range offered with s-gamut. I think people get all worked up over "X stops of dynamic range" offered by a particular camera, but there are few real-world scenes that actually require it. Would loved to have seen some examples of trying to bring a wider range within the LUT he was applying. I have found my FS5 suffers from some major blocking and codec issues in some certain scenes (recording internally), and I would assume those go away when recording externally? That would be a huge plus. There is also the issue of horrible edge fringing in super slow motion (HD at 240fps), in areas of high contrast. I have been hard-pressed to find anything online that would say wether or not this issue goes away with an external recorder, I sure hope so!
