@@jimhuffman9434 Sounds like Amy Hennig missed an opportunity there. But then we do have Raziel's "I don't think I have the stomach for it." line later on. X3
There are a few moments where Raziel seems to be keenly aware that everyone speaks in flowing prose like this, one of my favourite ones is when he meets Kain in the future and says "oh no! Every time you show up, something monumental and terrible always happens. I don't think I have the stomach for it". He knows full well that listening to anyone's speech's usually results in trouble for him
4:40 - "Hate me but do it honestly" Kain will not apologise for what he did of what he is, he welcomes Razel's hate and revenge but he wants it to be for the right reasons, he wants Raziel to do so freely without Mobiou's influence
Exactly. Raziel just showed how he was an easy puppet, even with the free will he had, and how Moebius used him to achieve his master's machinations, and Kain can easily see how Raziel's hatred isn't his own, but just him being influenced by Moebius.
@@BryonYoungblood But, "the secret that Raziel had to discover by himself", the lesson that teaches us that a coin can fall on its edge, is creating a paradox. The soul lacks feelings of hate and love, of repulsion and admiration. It's the only thing that can change destiny.
@@AugustoCuervo-hx9pr As well as for Raziel to learn he had free will to allow him to change destiny as well. Plus Kain wanting Raziel to learn the secrets he had learned was to be done on his own so that no one else, not even Kain himself, could manipulate Raziel into doing what he was going to do.
Just in case you didn't saw this scene in a while I reply to your comment! I too saw this scene like every week or two weeks for the past months! Amazing dialogue
This game really improved my vocabulary As a kid i remember my first job overhearing my supervisor telling another guy about how that kid uses big words lol
Taken on its own or within the context of the narrative of the whole game or the whole series, this scene right here is where Legacy of Kain separates itself from all the rest. Everything at work here is just perfect: Raziel enters this scene still burning for vengeance, but Kain quickly makes him see that something far bigger than the two of them is at stake, and the way he does it, without apologizing for his actions or justifying them, truly reflect magnificently on Simon Templeman as an actor. You can hear the resigned, weary tone in his voice: he has seen all these events unfold before and was powerless to stop them, and he's now forced to see them unfold again, to relive all the horrible things that occurred after his resurrection. You can also hear a bit of understanding and patience in his voice as he speaks to Raziel: he knows what it's like to be manipulated and to be made a pawn in someone else's grand scheme, and in both cases, Mortanius and Moebius each played off their lust for vengeance. This scene marks the real beginning of a truly profound and amazing story, where the real conflict gets underway, and though it is a great scene on its own, when looked at as a part of a whole, it really ties the whole story of Legacy of Kain together perfectly. I just cannot come up with enough good things to say about this particular scene.
And this scene is very interesting if you consider the original ending to the first game ("crude and ill-concieved"). Also, this reenacts the opening of SR1 and their first meeting after Raziel was remade. Just chilling and brilliant.
A fallen angel with a burning sword, an armoured tyrant on his throne... A man turned monster with messianic ambition, a righteous soldier turned fratricidal murderer. Redeemers, destroyers, two sides of one coin. The whole world their battleground as they move, unwittingly turned by the invisible hands of fate, inexorably surging towards each other, over and over.
They don't write dialogues like these anymore... not even in movies, much less games. "You said it yourself, Kain... there are only two sides to your coin." "Apparently so, but suppose you throw a coin enough times... suppose one day, it lands on its edge." Fuckin' awesome.
@@ineednochannelyoutube5384 Yes, but Defiance wasn't even in the making at the point in time when this line of dialogue was written. It's also specifically about rewriting the ending, which Kain refers to in the next sentence.
The death of Ariel *made* Kain the balance guardian - Kain was born at the exact moment of Ariel's death to take her place. When Nupraptor discovered Ariel dead, his grief corrupted the entire circle, including Kain, which is why the pillars fell. By purifying the wraith blade and entering the physical Reaver, Raziel purified Kain, allowing him to fulfill his true role as the Balance Guardian.
Yep, and thus being able to lead Kain down the path to be able to bring ownership of the Pillars of Nosgoth to vampires, in order to finally keep the Hylden locked away forever.
@@BryonYoungblood Fascinating , a 2 days old reply for a solitary comment from 12 years ago . Had the wheel of fate truly turn again , or just my eyes playing trick on me ?
@@Jarock316 But perhaps in the future, the Balance Pillar has been restored thanks to as being purified. But since the franchise has been stagnant, we likely will never know.
God DAMN some of, if not the best dialogue and voice acting I've ever in any game. This scene is just so entertaining to watch. Their back and forth exchange, each bringing up convincing and compelling arguments all the while in reality, Kain's the teacher, and Raziel is the student. Atleast that's how I see it. Evey single bloody line is quotable. Simon Templeman(Kain) and Michael Bell(Raziel" outdid themselves.
Kain basically saying " Quit your Bullshit Raziel, we both know why you are here , you want me dead for what i did to you, i can symphatize with it but at least have the stones to admit it."
@@Teixas666 yup that's it exactly. Raziel, just one sentence before said that he was there to kill Kain to restore balance to Nosgoth. Kain knows that ain't the truth and he wants Raziel to stop lying to himself about his motivations. He doesn't really care about Nosgoth he just wants to hurt Kain and Kain counted on that hatred to bring Raziel to this point. Kain has also seen that he and many others in Nosgoth are just pawns in a bigger game, everyone is lying, especially to him. Mortanius lied to him, Moebius lied to him, Ariel lied to him, he was beset by treachery and manipulation every step of the way in his original quest. There's nothing Kain hates more than someone lying, not just to him but to themselves. He's not gonna judge someone for having a flimsy reason to do something, you don't need to be out to save the world to be motivated to act, anything that gets you to act is good enough to him because it's at least honest. He doesn't care if Raziel hates him or forgives him as long as he's honest about his motives. You notice Kain doesn't exactly lie to Raziel. He commits lies of omission by not telling Raziel the entire story right away but only because Raziel needs to look for his answers. Kain does want to be balance guardian and help Nosgoth but to do that he has to cut through the web of manipulation and lies that have been spun by Moebius and his master.
Nope. Kain's "The Pillars don't belong to them" line is accurate and not arrogance. Humans are not fit to be guardians. The pillars choose guardians at birth, and Vampires are no longer born. The binding was weakening with the passage of time of human guardians, hence how the Hylden Lord could break out to assassinate Ariel through Mortanius. Kain is right to restore them to Vampire guardians.
I think I've finally figured out why Kain threw Raziel into the abyss. It wasn't out of jealously, it was so Kain would create a creature with free will to alter nosgoth's history.
+Razielx92 Third, there are three paradoxes, Moebius' one, when Raziel doesn't kill Kain and then when Kain saves Raziel. But yeah you're right... still, Raziel is used as a tool by everyone, including Kain.
+SoulRippster Yeah, with the difference being that Kain doesn't manipulate Raziel for malevolent purposes. But of course you don't learn that until later on.
I've heard it's been hypothesised that Kain looked into the future and saw how he'd finally die and took precautions for it. With how Kain is I doubt it was originally to save Nosgoth but more for his own life. He may have eventually decided to save the world but it definitely wasn't to begin with XD.
+Ethan Stansmore That's no hypothesis... he knew how he was going to die. He was going to die next to William's Tomb, that's what was supposed to happen, but ended up convincing Raziel not to do it.
I quite often have said that this may be the single best cutscene for a videogame. It doesn't pander to anything less than what it deserves. It has the perfect atmosphere and soundtrack.
"suppose one day it lands on its edge" this is why I think Kain cared for Raziel deeply and loved him this whole time. Knowing he had free will, Kain led him throughout history in order for him to discover the truth and do the right thing, without giving him a narrative with a drip-fed truth (like what EG and Moebius do). Instead he was willing to doom himself throughout countless timelines (this is what is referenced to "flip a coin enough times"), for the one time Raziel would finally choose to purify the blade. Everytime the wheel turned (a new timeline), he had complete faith in Raziels independence and free-will, willing to live in a doomed world if that world consisted of a Raziel he couldn't put faith in. He's basically saying "One day I'll reach you, even if its not this time, and thats ok"
Kain didnt have the power ot direct raziel as he was wheelbound himself, what he could howerver is nudge Raziel's decisions to ensure that he can ultimately postpone the point where raziel ismeant ot kill him and hope that buys him enough time to find a solution for his dilemma where both himself and Raziel cna live.
"HATE me, but do it HONESTLY." This line seriously speaks to me. Kain is basically saying, don't pretend that you coming after me is anything but for revenge. Don't hide behind faulty platitudes or a fake sense of altruism. Be honest about yourself. That can apply to almost anyone.
Exactly, and he understood that, given the manipulations of others through his first journey in Blood Omen 1-- Mortanius with being the man who had him killed and turned him into a vampire so he could be able to have Kain accept his role as Scion of Balance, Moebius using Kain first by having turned William the Just into the Nemesis, then leading Kain to the past to kill William before he became the Nemesis to ensure he could "justify" wiping out all vampires in Nosgoth for his master, the Elder God, and Ariel for lying to him about his role as the Guardian of Balance after her death, so he could tell Raziel was lying about WHY he was trying to hunt him down, since he was used to people pulling the wool over his eyes, so it shows how Kain spited people who lacked honesty in themselves.
"Suppose you throw a coin enough times, suppose one day, it lands on it's edge" Best Line EVER! Kain always had the best video game voice for a main villan. Especially kain. Brillaint.
It's more that the ending was changed near the end of production. Originally in SR1 you killed Dumah, went to fight Turel and met a character known as The Priestess, gained abilities such as the Ariel Reaver and the Amplified Reaver (Black with red highlighting, like in the vision at the end of the game). This reaver was gained after he killed Kain at Malek's Retreat. You'd then climb the top of the Silence Cathedral, ring the bells and exterminate all remaining vampires. Glad the story continue
Such a profound statement to end an amazing narrative. Young me gasped audibly at the PS2 when this scene played and 20 odd years later, its effect has yet to blunt.
Nine Pillars Guardians: 1. Nupraptor the Mentalist (Guardian of Mind) 2. Malek the Paladin (Guardian of Conflict) 3. Bane the Druid (Guardian of Nature) 4. DeJoule the Energist (Guardian of Energy) 5. Azimuth the Planer (Guardian of Dimension) 6. Moebius the Time Streamer (Guardian of Time) 7. Anarcrothe the Alchemist (Guardian of States) 8. Mortanius the Necromancer (Guardian of Death) 9. Kain the Disruptor (Guardian of Balance)
Now I imagine the scene done with thick London accents. "And there, roight in the middle of the Pillars, was the roight wanker what was going to smash them up." "'s loik ya said mate, 's only two side to yer bladdy coin." "Looks loik it at first, Raziel. But you keep tossing that bladdy coin. 'coz one day, 's gonna land on its edge, mate." *[poof]*
I consider it the unquestioned high water mark of dialogue and storytelling in the medium. And that's saying quite a bit, because this series as a whole is just so amazingly written.
The very, very best dislodge in any game ever made. Also it is not until watching it a second time that you notice the expressions. The sour frown at the name of the Time Streamer and the look of regret and pity when he mentions Ariel haunting the pillars. You go through the whole game thinking Kain is the villain and maybe he is. He is a complete bastard but he does seem to have a soul.
Kain's not so much a villian or a hero, but an antihero. He's always had a very clear view of what needed to be done for centuries, and isn't above considering the end justifying any means he needs to get there. Good may sleep better at night, but Evil gets shite *done*. ;)
Nordin Reecendo I don't think Kain is a villain, though. A villain is, by definition, selfish. If he seeks to right a wrong, it is always a wrong done to him personally or to something he regards with esteem. If he seeks to do "justice", it is never equal to all parts, and he is always above it. If he seeks to "save", it is always at the cost of a sacrifice not of himself. Kain does all he does with the ultimate goal of restoring Nosgoth its beauty and its peace. It takes millennia, and it takes many treasons and deceits and schemes and death, but the very end is the salvation of a land dilapidated by really cruel beings. He chose to be a wolf-pack leader because he knew he was going against the wolves. D.R.
Kain could see into the future using Moebius' time streaming device. Not only could he use it to see into the future but to see alternate futures. Futures that might come to be or not. Raziel saw some of these alternative futures when he pursued Kain at the end of SR1. Think back to what Kain says about looking into time. *To know the future Raziel, to see its paths and streams tracing out into the infinite. As a man I could never have contained such forbidden truths.* Kain has looked throughout time for a way to fulfill his destiny and role as balance guardian, he wants to restore the pillars not just to their purity but to preserve Nosgoth. But he also wants to keep the pillars in the hands of the Vampires. Vampires originally created the pillars and were the guardians of Nosgoth, he wants desperately to bring Vampires back to this role. So he attempts over and over to cheat fate. He sees the game that is being played by Moebius and the Elder God and the Hylden. He sees how they cheat, lie, and manipulate one another to gain advantages and finds it repulsive how rigged the "game" is. So rather than play fair he attempts the greatest cheat, the most astounding lie and the most incredible manipulation of them all. He will defy fate itself. Alter time and bend it to his will in order to cheat all the other players. One little pawn on the board taking full control of the board and turning the game against the players. He knows Raziel is a key figure to his plan and in order to ensure Raziel fulfills that destiny he must become a wraith. A creature beyond the reach of the game who possess true freedom of will. When Raziel appears before Kain and displays his wings Kain is not shocked by envy or jealously, rather instead he sees this and comes to the immediate conclusion that the time has come. He sees that Raziel has achieved the form needed in order for all of the future plans to come to pass. He executes Raziel with a heavy heart filled with sorrow that he must put his most beloved "son" through such torture in order for Nosgoth to be saved. Kain is playing the long game. He's looking towards centuries or even millennia into the future. The end justifies all of the means. A realization Raziel comes to at the end of Defiance when he accepts being bound to the Reaver. What wasn't stated entirely clearly was that that act, Raziel entering the Reaver and giving Kain the sight to see the Elder God was actually an act of purification. Kain is now purified. Freed from the corruption Nupraptor infected him with. He can now fulfill his destiny as Balance Guardian. How? That remains to be seen.
Trivia since I've never seen anyone mention it. When Raziel says he'll kill Kain " _...and thus, Balance will be restored.._ " is identical to what Kain would say in Blood Omen when he returned a token of the guardians to the pillars. " _The pillar accepted its offering, thus it was restored._ "
My god...seriously. the facial animations are out of this world good. it puts to shame so many games that came after it and games that still come out today with crappy mo cap facial animations.
"Hate me, but do it honestly" marvellous... "Suppose you throw a coin enough times... suppose one day, it lands on its edge"... undescribeably great... another of my most beloved quotes from this game. D.R.
The Legacy of Kain/Soul Reaver series is one of the greatest ever, Graphics for their time were superb, Epic soundtrack, fluent control system, and an unforgettable storyline and atmosphere. This scene was very deep, Kain is an arrogant prick but wise and methodical to a scary degree. Raziel you really feel bad for, but he is a little thick headed it took a while for Kain's message to Raziel to sink in despite the fact they are both being used as puppets.
Hey girls... did you know... that um... _This is the sublime moment of our undoing, Raziel. The ineffable fulcrum upon which swings the entirety of our history. This is where all of Nosgoth is betrayed._
"But suppose you throw a coin enough times... Suppose one day, it lands on its edge" has to be the single greatest quote ever spoken in the history of this earth.
@@jimhuffman9434 Its a metaphor for the fact that in life you really only have two choices and that you're doomed to one or the other. The edge of the coin signifies you yourself fighting against anything and everything to create a third option, a third choice. One you choose instead of it being chosen or forced upon you like the other two choices are.
@Joudas "I am as I always was, Your right hand..." - Raziel. Kain NEVER wanted to see Raziel suffer, he was his favored son, his right hand, he cared for him and oddly that is why he threw him into the abyss, he didn't want to see him become imprisoned in the reaver sword. It's really amazing, and you see at the end of defiance, Kain is in utter grief trying to pull the blade from Raziel. This story is so beautifully written, I wish they would make another game.
i've been watching this video since you first uploaded it back in 2006. its hard to believe its been ten years, even harder to believe that this amazing game came out even before that. at this point we'll probably never get a remaster or remake, but perhaps that is for the better as it leaves the series to be appreciated as it was originally developed.
I just realized this scene also comes with its little irony. Kain mocks Raziel for even presuming that Moebius was a trustworthy source, by remarking how absurd it would be for him to jump into Oblivion for his revenge... and yet it was Kain who actually ordered him into the Abyss. If written so on purpose, then it's a clever desmantling of Raziel's reason for pursuing Kain, a slight of honor, and also an indication of how important Raziel was, how he can choose not to fall into the Abyss. Perhaps I'm seeing too much into it, but I think Amy Hennig left few of the details of this franchise to chance, in my opinion. This game is specially solid at a narrative level. This is the height of the Legacy of Kain. I wouldn't put it above her to include such minute details in her work. That's what makes this game great, actually. It makes sense and it's compelling, on top of the awesome voice-acting.
Definitely, Amy Henning can be considered perhaps the chief architect of, in my opinion, the most well-written, intricately and painstakingly detailed stories in the video game medium. As bad as I'd like another game to be made, I don't think I'd play it if she wasn't brought back to write it.
by the time kain orders to throw Raziel into the abyss, he already knows that his lieutenents will all get corrupted and become mostrosities. And he knew that Raziel would be somehow "spared" if he'd condemn him to the abyss (he already had access to the timeweaving machine) So he spares him. Not out of altruism, but to start to set in motion the initial idea of a plan. To throw a wrench into the cogs of destiny.
Oh I agree and there's all kinds of little scenes that show how much thought was really put into this writing. I mean hell, I was playing Soul Reaver 2 the other day and noticed something I never noticed in my first playthroughs-- how when Raziel kills his past self, they're both standing on an ouroboros.
Perhaps the reason why Kain destroyed Raziel's wings, was simply to take from him possibility to simply fly away, cause Raziel has to fall into the Abyss.
Seeing the merciless and unapologetic Kain put his face into his hand to not see the moment that damned Nosgoth is more telling than anything. It shows not only the horror and importance of this one occurrence that Kain is narrating, but also speaks volumes of Kain's growth in character since Blood Omen. He is no longer the reckless, bloodthirsty warmongerer who literally enjoys the thought of the Nemesis coming into Willendorf and destroying it. He is now a weary warrior who has realized that raw power does nothing in the strings of manipulation. And now he must unshackle himself and all of Nosgoth. And it all rests in someone else's hands, his own creation that he damned to torturous remaking in order to fulfill the requirements to defeat the Wheel of Fate and it's manipulator, the Elder God.
simon templeman does an amazing job voicing kain but so does michael bell in voicing raziel. i dont know why raziel gets soo much hate. u have to see it from his point of view, he dosnt have the same knowledge about mobieus and the ancients vampires as kain does. although i do prefer kain over raziel. michael bell voicing raziels gives me goosebumps.
I don't agree with that. Raziel wasn't so much arrogant, as ignorant. But so are we as the player, as we see things from his point of view. I found him mostly relatable in that sense. The only time I didn't like him, was when he wanted to fight Kain in Defiance, and ended up ripping his heart out. But at that point, the forces in that temple would have corrupted his emotions and made him do things he didn't want. Kain was also ignorant, and arrogant, in Blood Omen 1. But after so many centuries, he was able to acquire a good deal of knowledge. Although his arrogance still remained, to some degree.
I honestly had NO idea people "disliked" Raziel. First I'm ever hearing of this. I always preferred him over Kain. His design, soul devouring mechanic, and plane shifting ability always made him more entertaining and intriguing to play. Plus he was more of the underdog of the series, and I always liked underdogs. I do like Kain, but LOVE Raziel. I do agree about his arrogance though. He came across quite pompous and self righteous at times(mostly in SR2).
I swear to god the line "Hate me, but do it honestly" changed my life. Not everyone's gonna like you in life, but i can at least respect the ones that say it to my face
It was evident in SR1, too - Kain banters with Raziel in an almost friendly manner even while he's fighting him. I conjecture that Kain knew he couldn't kill Raziel (Kain couldn't reach into the spectral realm, so there was really no danger for Raziel in that fight).
It's complicated. It's explained in the first game of the series. To sum it up, Nupraptor (Guardian of Mind) and Ariel (former Guardian of Balance) are lovers. Ariel is murdered by the Hylden, Kain is born to replace her and when Nupraptor finds her corpse shortly after he becomes mad from grief- and he corrupts the other Guardians who are symbiotically bound to him, including Kain. So at the moment of his birth, Kain was tainted, making him unable to carry out his true duty as Balance Guardian.
Well, the Hylden were many, in the billions, and very powerful. Even Kain himself wouldn't be able to defeat them ALL, even with the aid of EVERY vampire, including his lieutenants. The Glyph magix nearly eliminated the Hylden. Kain was barely able to defeat them without the Reaver, but he managed it. The only time the Hylden could ever return would be if there was only ONE vampire left. If Raziel had activated the Silenced Cathedral, all vampires would've died, and the Hylden would return...
That's because Kain never really held any ill feelings towards Raziel, in fact by then end of Defiance it's obvious Kain has a great deal of remorse for Raziel. At the end of Defiance, any animosity they've had towards each other is gone.
@RAZZAtheREAVER Not sure if it's the best in the history of the world, but I can't listen to it without getting chills. This whole series is the best vampire story ever crafted.
Something to note here is that Raziel chooses to stop and listen to Kain. He could have attacked him at any given point, but instead he CHOSE to listen to him. This was the first instance of Raziel being free from the Wheel's influence.
The only condition to maintain the binding was that the guardians should be vampires - hence why they kidnapped humans to turn them at birth. Thats what caused Moebius and Mortanius to rebel. Mortanius saw the real reason for this however, and created Kain as a vampire to restore the Pillars to Vampire guardianship. If Kain had sacrificed himself, the Vampires would be extinct and the binding would fail. The pillars would probably collapse as a result of this.
The events in this series are all connected with some future and past ones happening at the same time, for example when a Younger Kain refuses the sacrifice and condens the pillars to decay, a Elder Kain was purified by Raziel's actions finally allowing him to fulfill his role as balance guardian, this is peak writing.
Im mature enough to admit a few things, mechanically soul rever 2 wasnt that great. The different reavers worked more as keys and the land was pretty lineal unlike the ps1 game...... HOWEVER... this, this is what makes the game great.. the story. Amy henning did a great job writing this, and Im grateful for playing this time after soul reaver one... It might not have the best content or the best unlockables or any nonsense that wanna shove down our throats like current games..... sometimes you just need a good story to make your game great.
The game is great because of its story. That's what I love about this series. And one of the reasons defiance wasn't as appealing: because it had too much mindless fighting compared to puzzle solving and story telling solving
On the VERY first playthough, yes. Second and third perhaps OK. But even then it has already more or less become what it is. A linear as f00k thing, with a cheating combat system and hordes of unskippable cutscenes. This is no game. It's lies dressed up as one to scam you out of the cost to make you 'play' what should have been a couple of hours of video somewhere.
It is both, but I may have not explained well. The Pillars were raised to restore balance to the world, which was severely shaked by a weapon the Hylden used, and to keep them banished from Nosgoth.
Raziel had such a funny existence. First hes a tool of the Sarafan, dies, and is resurrected as a vampire to be a tool for Kain. Dies again, and is resurrected as a wraith to be a tool for the Elder God. Travels time to kill himself, then travels time again to kill himself, again, so he can go back to being a tool for Kain so he can find a way to restore the pillars and remain an asshole simultaneously.
@M Heh. The term Kain uses here is actually "trawls". As in, Moebius is fishing for the ignorant and unwary with a large, close-mesh fishnet. In a way, it's closer to the "This is Bait" meme. Still, it sounds exactly like he's saying "Troll". XD
Yes, I also think that. It seems the original guardians used the force of the land to strengthen the barrier that held the Hylden. Every pillar has a theme, like Death, Mind, Time, Balance, Conflict,States, Dimension and Nature.These are essencial to the health of the land and all the living beings there.
