Spinning and recovering a glider (ASK23) 

That was me just being brave! I am the CFI at the London Gliding Club and a Senior Instructor coach with the BGA so I have to do lots of spinning - I still don't like doing it so try to stay cool :-)

Hey, not all of us teenagers are idiots :D

Hi John I am glad that you enjoyed it. You are most welcome to use anything from it after all it is intended to help prevent spinning accidents.

Sorry to be so off topic but does someone know of a method to get back into an instagram account..? I was dumb lost the login password. I would appreciate any tips you can give me!

@Malik Brett instablaster =)

@Ishaan Beckham thanks for your reply. I got to the site thru google and I'm trying it out atm. I see it takes quite some time so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.

@Ishaan Beckham it did the trick and I actually got access to my account again. I'm so happy! Thanks so much, you saved my account :D

@Malik Brett you are welcome :D

I am glad that you found it informative. Thank you for your comment. I will try to find the time to do some more videos next season

You are most welcome. Thanks for watching and commenting.

Hi Roy. I am still not that keen on the sensations of spinning but it does not put much load on the glider and is therefore safe, subject to doing a good look out and thus making sure that you do not get into the path of other aircraft.

Andrew Roch This is a good training consideration because if I was not prepared for such a scenario and accidentally get into such a case, I’d want to be able to keep my senses, be confident, and recover properly. Thank you.

Thanks for your feedback. Good luck with the ass-cat training. If you need any help just shout. I will try to get round to doing some more videos this year.

Andrew Roch Thanks! I'll subscribe to your channel, look forward to seeing more videos in the future :)

Hi Scott. Sorry that I have been so slow to reply. A slipping turn would be safer than a skidding turn but in reality we want to climb in lift so a "balanced" turn is more efficient. We really want to fly the smallest circle possible in the centre of a thermal to optimise climb rate. The safe answer is to monitor speed carefully and regularly

If you want to learn to fly gliding is defiantly the way to go, it is affordable and has a great community of people surrounding it. 1. Back pressure is him pulling backwards on the stick, releasing the back pressure is done to allow the glider to unstall. 2. To centralise the yaw string you put in a rudder input. When you are near the stall this causes one wing to fly slower than the other causing one wing to stall and the other to continue flying. This is what causes a spin. In normal flight at normal gliding attitude the yaw sting should be kept central.

ltcterry2006 Badly! It was all done with a go pro so the audio was just based on the built in microphone.

Thank you for your positive feedback. I hope eventually to cover most glider pilot training matters but it is a VERY long project and as you see I have not got very far yet!

Thank you for your kind comment. I could not tell you but well forward I would suggest. I am not fortunate enough (or disciplined enough) to be anywhere near the minimum placard weight. Coming in at around 95 kg with 'chute I was much closer to max weight. I think the method of spin entry has quite a lot to do with it.

That's really interesting. Funny enough, I'm 95kg as well, which has me to believe I have the CG pretty far forward. I believe the max cockpit weight is 242lbs (109kg). The part that fascinates me is that the 32's flight manual says it will only spin with a CG in the most aft position, and spril otherwise like a 21. But clearly this is not the case. I showed this video to my instructor who is also an aerobatic pilot, and he had tried all sorts of stuff to try and get the school's 23 to spin. But your video shows that the glider will spin if stalled in very uncordinated flight.

What you did was incredibly dangerous. I’m impressed that a CFI did something like that. If a glider with its W&B and its configuration cannot do the spins, then, it must do not them! Force a glider to do spins when it’s not built for it could result in an impossibility to recover it.

@@filippoporro2049 This is not dangerous; it is a Schleicher tested and certified "spin-kit". Spin recovery training is mandatory for students and a lot of clubs have the ASK-21 for training. So Schleicher did all the spin testing and certification with the additional tail ballast.

Ah yes!! Sorry about that. The give away that it is stalled is that the variometer (sensitive VSI and total energy compensated) shows a high rate of descent. and particularly that it flickers. So if you watch the instrument on the top right you will see that it is normally at about -2 (2 knots down which roughly equates to 200ft/min). When stalled this will increase significantly and the instrument tends to flicker due to the turbulent airflow over the port which is used for total energy compensation. Neither the K21 nor the K23 show much buffet at the stall. I hope this helps answer your questions but if not please come back to me. Andrew

@@andrewroch2159 not at all! Thank you for responding to my question. It makes sense now when I watch the video again but I am surprised there is no audible stall warning given that a dramatic spin entry is only one dumb decision away.

Hi Cirrus4000. Spinning is in my opinion a horrible passtime but learning to understand how it feels, how to get out of it effectively and more importantly knowing when it is about to happen is all good for self presevation! Please be aware that my reply to you is based on mostly experience and relatively little science so if you see an answer to your question from a more informed source then go with that. This is my best shot at a partial answer. When a glider is banked and turning the outer wing travels faster, the inner wing relatively slower. The outer wing travelling further in the same period of time and losing the same amount of height must have had a slightly lower angle of attack compared to the inner wing. It is a high angle of attack that makes a wing stall therefore the inner wing will stall more than the outer wing.(Lift effectively increases with angle of attack untill just before the stall when it rapidly loses lift, so the outer wing is likely to be producing maximum lift at the point the inner wing stops doing so). In my example in the video it important to realise that the glider is well below the stalling speed (for the angle of bank) and therefore slipping significantly into the turn. This slipping pushes the yaw string to the outside of the turn and even full application of in turn rudder struggles to centralise the string but readily causes the glider to spin. (as it increases the speed and reduces the angle of attack on the outer wing and the reverse on the inner wing). So the semi stalled condition in the first place is the root of the evil and misleading information from the yaw string. There really is only one reliable answer to not stalling and spinning and that is to realise that the stalling speed increases with the angle of bank and to fly the glider above the stall speed for the angle of bank that you have. If you ever find yourself with the stick well back consider allowing it to move forward a little.

@@andrewroch2159 Hello Andrew, thanks for the detailed reply, especially after all these years after the original video was uploaded. :) Your explanation makes sense, and actually I can see that it's not necessarily the fact that the string is level (and the turn balanced) that's the cause as such, but the *act* of ruddering (ie yaw motion) to bring it level that slows the inner wing enough to tip it over the edge. I had forgotten that the stall speed increase in a turn which is definitely something to remember. I need to start reading up on all this again and dig out my Glider Pilot's Manual. I've not flown for a good few years after going solo some time ago, but looking to fly again when restrictions allow. So I've been busy watching as many informative videos as I can in the mean time, and commenting where appropriate (I've watched and commented on a few of Gerry Fletcher's videos who I see also commented here). Thanks again for your comments. It's a pity you have not been able to upload more instructional videos on this topic, but understand that it's not always easy to do. I think, like you say, spinning is one of the aspects of flying that is least liked but has to be most understood to fly safe. Cheers!

Great video, extremely helpful. I'm just in process of learning about Gliders. I know more about GA Powered planes & the biggest gotcha is the infamous "Base to Final Turn". With gear down, 2nd flaps in & throttle lowered many times your hovering around stall speed & over shoot runway you increase bank angle, then also use more rudder to bring nose around, noticing ground is approaching faster with increased bank pilot mistakey push up & stall spin deepest at low altitude to perform proper recovery. Would this example be similar to a typical base to final stall?

In this video you state that this wouldn't happen in other model But you never explained why it wouldn't. Does that plane have a lower stall speed or another reason

I think this is covered in a lot of basic spin training : by centering the "uncoordinated" turn (out slipping, not enough in turn rudder), you apply in-turn rudder, and this has the effect of raising the relative airflow speed on your hight wing (which is good) but it also decrease the airflow over your low wing, which is already near stall speed. So because of this rudder input into the turn near stall speed you will make your low wing stall and you will spin thereafter. The critical thing here is not having a coordinated turn at all cost it is the reduce your angle of attack.

Hi John, Glad you enjoyed it. You pick up on the most valuable point!! It can all look OK and then very suddenly it is not!. Fly safely, Andrew

An interesting question with slightly the wrong slant! Nearby luton airport was developed after the London Gliding Club was established in the 1930's. So yes Luton Airport is problematic to our operation. In the realisation that both are important to aviation we have a letter of agreement with NATS who are presently responsible for the safe arrival and departure of Luton Aircraft. Through working closely together we are able to co-exist with only a minor inconvenience to both parties. Luton aircraft have no need to be over Dunstable lower than 4,000ft AMSL so the area dirctly ove the gliding club is not in any way contentious. I hope that answers your very valid question as fully as you would like. Andrew

Released over Dunstable and headed over the airfield to do the spinning.

Dunstable/London Gliding Club have been lovely hosts every time I've visited. Wonderful experience.

It is a good idea for the glider and tug to gain separation as soon as possible so that there is no conflict between the tow rope and the glider. This can be achieved in a number of different ways but in this particular location it is not possible for the tug to continue its climb due to the base of controlled airspace. If the tug suddenly descends then it will shock cool the engine and/or over speed it. So the best option for the tug is to turn and gently reduce power. The convention at most clubs in the UK is for the tug to turn right and therefore for the glider to turn left. If this reply raises further questions please just go ahead and ask. As I have no idea of your background or level of knowledge on the subject I have tried to cover the topic in the best way that I can, but more detail can be given if you wish. Thanks for your interest in my video.

Interesting. We are opposite with cars, and with gliders. Something that I need to know should I ever be fortunate enough to fly in the UK! Thank you for an excellent video.

DIsmayedConfuse I so wish we were consistent in the UK but we are not! I know that the club at Cambridge uses " glider turns right" so if we are lucky enough to have you visit the UK my advice would be to get a suitable briefing on the topic from the club's at which you fly.

@@andrewroch2159 Why could descending shock cool the engine?

Ah yes!! How else can you get objects and articles into a simgle word? :-)

Hi Paul, I think I'm about the same stage as you in my training, so anyone with more knowledge or experience, please feel free to correct me if the below is not accurate. Sorry, I can't add much regarding spin causation - the explanation I was given is the same as you have put, inside wing stalls first/more than outside. However, regarding the yaw string, I believe it is only off to the outside once the glider has stalled - the cause of which is increased angle of bank (the vario jumps down to 6 o'clock at the moment of increased bank). Correcting the string and not the stall, with inside rudder, causes the spin. Correcting the stall before adding rudder, by the easing of back pressure on the stick, would then bring the string central again. Andy - may you please correct this or elaborate?

That is the exact thing being shown here. The glider stalls when the angle of bank increases (stall speed is higher with more bank) , then te pilot is not aware of this situation and corrects the slip, wich basically is the glider falling sideways causing the yaw string to bend upwards, with internal rudder, and thus making the glider depart from the gentle stall to a full spin. As a side note In some gliders applying full opposite aileron can also make the slip turn into a spin.

So sorry for the delay in reply. In this case the glider in a moderate turn starts to slip INTO the turn and without in-turn yaw will not spin. It causes the yaw string to sit out to the side. We are often told that we should have the yaw string in the middle but if you apply sufficient in-turn rudder to bring the yaw string back to the centre without first increasing speed then the glider will spin. This used as a spin entry technique works on most aircraft for all the reasons that you give above. It is quite difficult to get a K21 to do this and original purpose of the video was to counteract a comment that I heard - "a K23 is just a single seat K21!" I set out to show that this was not the case by using this simple spin scenario to express one of the many differences. It is probably worth mentioning that the glider is already stalled before the application of rudder and therefore the effect of slowing the innner wing further stalls it and accelerating the outer wing reduces the area of the wing that is stalled and thus the autorotation.

+Andrew Roch Thanks for the feedback , pleased my armchair theory was correct.I was also puzzled why the yaw string was not centred in the turn but it makes sense if the glider is slipping into the turn opposed to yawing out of the turn as I first thought

Andrew Roch thanks for sharing this video. I have flown K21/K23 for 20+ years as an instructor and was not aware of these spin characteristics of the K23. Do you know if this can be reproduced for both heavy and light pilots? And are there any differences between the A and the B model of the K23 in this regard? Thanks.

I can assure you that it does and was spinning. This is an exercise with which I am very familiar. There was full auto rotation and all the symptoms of a spin. What is the reason for your analysis please?

@@andrewroch2159 I just don't see a fully developed spin. I have logged countless hours on this model. BTW isn't autorotation a helicopter term?

@@JohnLivings Hello John and M R. Sadly I think that you may have missed the point of the video. It was intended to demonstrate that a K23 does not handle in the same way as a K21 and I just filmed this example to make the point. There was nothing special about the configuration of the glider and no "Test Pilot" elements involved. It is a great shame that we lose too many glider pilots in unintentional spinning accidents and we should assume (regardless of what it says in the manual) that gliders flown without due regard to airspeed might very well spin. How "fully developed" the spin might be (or for that matter any other departure from controlled flight) has no bearing on life expectancy if the ground gets in the way. My endeavour in publishing this video was to inform and educate with the hope that it will prevent a pilot from leaping out of a K21 into a K23 and assume that you can treat them as being the same - they are not! I would really not want to get into pilot qualification levels and the like in this open forum to justify my comments but if you would like to know more please just email me at the London Gliding Club. With regard to the helicopter comment......... Auto rotation is an expression used for both fixed wing and rotary aircraft. Confusingly it has a different meaning in each. Please have a look in Wikipedia for autorotation (fixed-wing aircraft) which gives an excellent explanation of the term.

@@MrBirgerB Hello MR. I am still grappling with how to do replies on RU-vid but please have a read of the reply to John (and intentionally you) as I hope it covers the points that you raise. I am glad to hear that you have had the opportunity to complete a number of hours flying the lovely K23. I hope that my little demo has shown you a side to the glider that will keep you cautious. Sadly most spinning accidents occur during a period of high workload and that is not managed correctly. Rarely is it due to the pilot being unaware of how to get the glider out of a spin. Stay safe and have fun - please do not get distracted from the point by focusing on an issue that I do not know enough about. I have no idea what in your mind constitutes a "fully developed" spin but whatever it is from 3,000 ft holding the glider in more turns of the spin would have caused me to run out of height before completing the task that I set out to complete. For what it is worth I do feel reasonably content that I am suitably qualified to justify the video and my comments but if you want to know more please just email me at the London Gliding Club and I will happily elaborate.

Andrew Roch, No need to get deffensive about a technical discussion. I appreciate your video and the message you are trying to get through. I just find flying interesting and I like to discuss technical aspects of it.